Lester Likens - Father of Deceased

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Lester Likens - Father of Deceased

Postby admin » October 31st, 2010, 6:52 pm

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Alright, State.

LESTER LIKENS , a witness called on behalf of the State of Indiana,
being duly sworn by the Court, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. LEROY NEW,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. Will you state your name to the court and jury, please?

A. My name is Lester Likens.

Q. Mr. Likens, where do you live now?

A. 1334 South Meridian Street, Lebanon, Indiana.

Q. Do you have a family, Mr. Likens?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Are you married at the present time?

A. Yes, I am, sir.

Q. What is your wife's name?

A. Betty Likens.

Q. Do you have children?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. State their names and ages and sex.

A. I have Danny Likens, age nineteen; Dianna Likens, age nineteen; I have Benny Likens, age sixteen; and Jenny Likens, age sixteen.

Q. These are two sets of twins?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. Where were you born, Mr. Likens?

A. Lebanon, Indiana.

Q. Where were you raised?

A. Lebanon, Indiana.

Q. Where was your schooling?

A. Lebanon - to the eighth grade.

Q. Did you have a daughter named Sylvia Marie Likens?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When and where was she born?

A. Lebanon, January 3, 1949.

Q. Where were you living at the time?

A. In Fayette, Indiana, between here and Lebanon.

Q. Were you employed?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Where were you working at the time Sylvia was born?

A. Lux Laundry here in Indianapolis, route salesman.

Q. How long did you remain at Fayette, Indiana, with your family?

A. A short time when Sylvia was born - right after she was born we moved on West Noble Street, Lebanon, because we was at mother's house at the time Sylvia was born.

Q. About how long did you live there?

A. We lived there a year and a half or two years.

Q. Where did you go.

A. Then we moved to Indianapolis.

Q. Did you take Sylvia with you?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. Did you take your older children with you?

A. We sure did.

Q. Did your children remain with you in your home a considerable time?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you ever separated from any of your children?

A. Not that I can recollect.

Q. Was there a time you left Indiana for any reason or did you continue to work there?

A. No, I moved jobs. After I left West Noble Street I went to Tyndall Town - I worked at Mouldings Division and Tyndall Town was on the same street.

Q. How long did you work at Moundings Division?

A. They were going to close the factory and move south on account of cheaper wages and I went to work for Gregg in 1952 and moved to 1742 Onion Street because it was close to work. I worked at Greggs four years, till 1956.

Q. During all that time and in the early 50's, did Sylvia remain with you?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Now, there never was any time when she was away from home for any considerable time, living with anyone else?

A. Not outside Mrs. Yensel - she lives on South Oxford Street.

Q. When did she live with her?

A. I worked the fairs a short time and my wife had a bad operation and they stayed there at the time.

Q. When was that?

A. Between '50 and '51 or right along in '51.

Q. Would you pronounce the name?

A. Yensel - with a Y.

Q. How long did Sylvia live with her?

A. I can't say for sure. It would be around three or four months.

Q. Did any of the other children live with her?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. Which others?

A. All the ones I had.

Q. She kept your family for you during that period of time?

A. Yes.

Q. Your wife was in the hospital part of the time?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. Did Sylvia start to school?

A. Yes.

Q. Public school?

A. Yes.

Q. At what age?

A. At six.

Q. What school did she start, do you know?

A. I believe she started - I moved from 1741 Union to 112 South Harris and she went to the school at Belmont and Washington, I think School No. 50.

Q. Did your other children attend school, the older ones?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. Did you own any of the homes where you lived, Mr. Likens?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Now, Sylvia started at what you think was the School No. 50 in the first grade when she was six?

A. If I recollect.

Q. Did she progress through the grades regularly?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Did you continue to move about?

A. After I got to 112 Harris, I had reasonable rent and started to do better and in 1956 I started working for myself as a cleaning business and I stayed in it nine years and after I started doing better I bought the house at 2954 North Adams in 1959. I stayed there over two years and decided we wanted a better house and we bought the house at 3417 North Leland Street and stayed there a year and a half or two years.

Q. That was after 1959?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Mr. Likens, I will hand you what has been marked, for the purpose of identification, as State's Exhibit No. 22 and ask you to examine that and tell the court and jury whether that is an accurate reproduction of the house on Leland Street about which you have testified?

A. Very much so, it is.

MR. NEW: The State offers State's Exhibit No. 22.

MR. ERBECKER: We object. I can't see the materiality of it.

THE COURT: Do you object?

MR. ERBECKER: Yes.

MR. NEDEFF: Richard Hobbs makes the same record. It is immaterial.

MR. RICE: We object. It is irrelevant and immaterial.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Where did you move then, Mr. Likens?

A. We then moved to 3838 East New York Street.

Q. How long did you live there?

A. About four or five months.

Q. Did Sylvia live with you?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. The other children?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. How long would you say you lived at that location, sir?

A. Between four, five, six months.

Q. How old was Sylvia when you lived on East New York Street?

A. Sylvia must have been about thirteen, twelve or thirteen.

Q. And how close is that to 3850 East New York?

A. Well, right across the alley a couple of doors.

Q. Do you know whether or not the defendant, Mrs. Gertrude Wright, or Mrs. Gertrude Baniszewski, lived there at that time?

A. I don't believe she did.

Q. During the time that you were on East New York Street did Sylvia attend school?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Had she advanced in the grades?

A. She sure did.

Q. Was her attendance in class normal at school?

A. Yes, in was.

Q. During this period of time was she ever seriously ill?

A. No, sir, not at all.

Q. Did she suffer from epilepsy?

A. No.

Q. Did she ever have any major surgery?

A. No, not any kind.

Q. Was she ever in the hospital?

A. No, she was not.

Q. Did she ever lose any of her teeth?

A. Yes, she lost a front tooth.

Q. Tell the jury how?

A. She lost a front tooth when she was seven years old and I came home from work at Gregg Cleaners and her face was swollen up so I says I had better do something about it. She was seven or eight. I took her to Dr. Ripley. He was at Washington and Rural Street. He had a hard time but he got it out. She run into the oldest boy, run into the back of his head and knocked it out.

Q. Did you ever replace the tooth with a bridge?

A. No, sir, I could not.

Q. Was there any particular reason why?

A. It seemed like I kept saying I would and I never got round to it. I did not have the money to really go into it. I did not know how much for sure it would cost me anyway.

Q. Did she attend Sunday School?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Over what period of time?

A. I won't say everywhere we lived but they attended when we lived on Colorado and when we lived on North Adams and -

Q. What churches did they attend?

A. The East 16th Christian Church when we lived on North Adams. She went to church at Maywood a few times to my brother's church.

Q. Did she own a Bible?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Did any of her sisters or brothers attend Sunday School or church with her?

A. Yes, they would.

Q. Did you yourself or Mrs. Likens attend church?

A. Not too often.

Q. Was Sylvia baptized?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. Do you know where?

A. Well, she was baptized on East 16th Street and I understand she was baptized while she was at Mrs. Wright's house.

Q. Did Sylvia ever work gainfully anywhere?

A. Not outside babysitting or ironing.

Q. Was she a talkative girl?

A. No, she was not.

Q. Loud?

A. No.

Q. Boisterous?

A. No, she was not.

Q. Disobedient or obedient?

A. She was obedient, very much so.

Q. What color was her hair?

A. Light brown hair, between blond and brown. She had light hair.

Q. Mr. Likens, I will hand you what has been marked for the purpose of identification as State's Exhibit No. 23, and ask you to look at this and tell the court and jury whether that is an accurate reproduction of your daughter, Sylvia Marie Likens?

A. It sure is.

Q. When was that taken, if you know?

A. That was taken, if I remember, after we came back from California.

Q. Do you know what year, what month?

A. I believe '65. I can't remember for sure.

Q. How old was she there?

A. I believe she was sixteen.

Q. Do you know where the picture was taken?

A. No, but my wife does, I know. She always takes care of that part of it.

MR. NEW: The State offers into State's Exhibit No. 23.

THE COURT: Any objection?

DEFENSE ATTORNEYS: No objection.

THE COURT: Show Exhibit No. 23 in evidence.

MR. NEW: We ask permission to have the jury exhibit the picture at this time.

THE COURT: And shown to the jury.

WHEREUPON STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 23 (being a portrait of Sylvia) WAS ADMITTED IN EVIDENCE,
SHOWN TO THE JURY, AND MADE A PART OF THIS RECORD AS FOLLOWS, TO-WIT:

STATE'S EXIBIT NO. 23 ATTACHED.

THE COURT: Next question, please.

Q. Was your daughter Sylvia in any trouble of any kind, ever?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever leave the state with your family?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. When did that take place?

A. Around February 8, 1965.

Q. Where did you go?

A. We went to California.

Q. Did Sylvia go with you?

A. Yes, sir, she did.

Q. What other children went?

A. They all went.

Q. Did your wife go with you?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you go?

A. Long Beach, California.

Q. What did you do while you were there?

MR. ERBECKER: We object, it is immaterial.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Was Sylvia employed while you were out there?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she do?

A. She done a little ironing.

Q. How did she do that and for whom?

A. She had a note in the laundromat. We lived close to it and she was very good at ironing.

Q. Did she ever share her money with you?

MR. BOWMAN: We have not put the character of the decedent in issue.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. How long did you stay in Long Beach, California?

A. We stayed in Long Beach about four months.

Q. Where did you go then?

A. We came back home.

Q. Where was home?

A. Back to Lebanon.

Q. Do you remember what month you returned there?

A. It was in May.

Q. The same year, 1965?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you stay in Lebanon?

A. Until I started back on the fairs.

Q. When was that?

A. About February 5, I believe.

Q. Did you and your wife ever separate?

A. Yes, we have.

Q. What period of time did that occur?

A. Well, at the time you see that was just prior to the time we left to go on fairs we was separated about a week.

Q. What month would that be?

A. That would be the last of June.

Q. The last of June?

A. The last week in June.

Q. Where did your wife go when you separated?

A. She was at 109 North Euclid Street and I was in Lebanon, Indiana,

Q. Where were the children?

A. The two girls was with her.

Q. Which two?

A. Jenny Fay and Sylvia Marie.

Q. On Euclid Street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, did you and your wife ever reconcile and go back together?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. When was that - when did that take place?

A. About a week after we separated.

Q. The early part of July '65?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, during the first week of July 1965 were your daughters Jenny and Sylvia still living with your wife?

A. Yes, they was.

Q. Did anything occur that caused your wife to get in any trouble?

A. Yes, we had been married a long time and when she is away from me I don't believe -

MR. BOWMAN: I see no reason for Mr. Likens to go into this. We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did she remain home all during that time?

A. Well, I was not with her. As far as I know, she did.

Q. When did you next see her?

A. About a week after.

Q. Where was that?

A. When I seen her at her mother's house.

Q. Did you find the children there?

A. No.

Q. Where were they?

A. At Mrs. Wright's house.

Q. Who is Mrs. Wright?

A. Mrs. Baniszewski.

Q. Do you see her in the courtroom?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell the jury who you are talking about, sir.

A. The lady behind Mr. Erbecker. (indicating defendant Gertrude Baniszewski)

MR. NEW: Show the witness is describing Mrs. Baniszewski.

Q. Did you know the lady before the first week in July?

A. No.

Q. Had you ever seen her before that?

A. No.

Q. Had you ever seen the defendant Richard Hobbs before that time - sitting to her right?

A. No.

Q. Had you ever seen the defendant Paula Baniszewski?

A. No.

Q. Had you ever seen the other two?

MR. BOWMAN: He is leading the witness.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Had you ever seen any of the defendants before?

A. No.

Q. What time of day or night did you see the girls at Mrs. Wright's?

A. I believe it was after dark, 7:00 or 8:00 o'clock.

Q. How did you happen to find them there?

A. My oldest boy was with me and me and Danny was looking for my wife and she was not home and so he told me -

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to the conversation.

Q. Where did you go?

A. To Mrs. Baniszewski's.

Q. It was after dark - do you know what date that was?

A. It must have bean around the 2nd or 3rd of July.

Q. 1965?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When you arrived at Mrs. Baniszewski's or Mrs. Wright's, what house did you go to?

A. Well, when we arrived we went next door - Danny did - and I stayed in the car and they told us -

MR. ERBECKER: I object to what they were told.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to the conversation.

Q. What house did you go to, where did you find Mrs. Wright?

A. In her house.

Q. Do you know the address?

A. 3850 East New York.

Q. Now, tell the jury what happened when you went there, when you arrived?

A. I arrived there - and I actually did not know anybody in the house outside my children and they told me to come in - they had been out side playing with the kids - and so we went in, me and my son, and I don't know exactly how long we stayed - maybe a half hour or so. We started to walk out the door.

Q. Who was, there when you arrived?

A. You mean how many people?

Q. Can you tell who was there, tell the jury who was inside the house?

A. I know she had a girl ten or eleven.

Q. Who is she?

A. I don't know her name.

Q. Who had a girl?

A. Mrs. Baniszewski. She had a small child about a year old, or six months, I don't know.

Q. Were there any other adults?

A. I could not tell, to be sure, I can't remember whether one of the daughters was there or not.

Q. Were there any other adults there?

A. No.

Q. How do you know her name is Wright?

A. Well the lady next door told -

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you talk to Mrs. Wright when you went in?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What did she say and what did you say?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to defendants Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski, Paula Marie Baniszewski and Richard Hobbs.

Q. Relate what happened?

MR. BOWMAN: There is a question before the court.

THE COURT: Same question. Same ruling. Objection sustained as to your clients. Proceed.

Q. Relate what happened when you got in Mrs. Baniszewski's house, sir.

A. I found out my children was there and I was relieved and she told us to set down and we sat down a while. I said I had better be getting back to Lebanon, that my wife was not home. We started out the door. We had the screen open. She said come on back in and I had not ate any and my son had not. She said, "Don't be in a hurry, come back in, your wife is not home". I can't recollect whether she told me she would like to take care of the children but it was later. We said we could come back in. By and by, we went and got a couple of sacks of hamburgers at the White Castle. We come back and set a while.

Q. What part of the house did you set in?

A. I set in a chair in the living room.

Q. Did you ever go in any other part of the house?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. Only in the living room?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You came back to the house and Mrs. Wright was still there?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened then, what was said by you or her?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

A. Just the conversation she wanted to know where my wife was. I guess the girl's told me where my wife was. I did not know where my wife was.

Q. In the presence of Mrs. Wright?

A. Yes.

Q. What did they say?

A. They said "Mommy is in jail" and I said, "In jail" so I run in the car run down to see if I could find her and evidentually she had already been out or was getting out. I missed her someway and went back to the house a couple of times or three looking for her.

Q. Which house?

A. 109 North Euclid. Evidently she went there for the children and they was not there so we went back to Mrs. Baniszewski's house and she said, "Why don't you stay here tonight"? I said, "Well, I had better get back to Lebanon". The boy said, "Let's stay here". He slept on the davenport and I set in the chair and slept all night. If I remember, I was out looking for Betty before they got up.

Q. Did Sylvia stay that night?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Jenny stay there?

A. Yes.

Q. Who else stayed there that night, of your family?

A. The oldest boy.

Q. Danny?

A. Yes.

Q. You got up the next morning before anybody else?

A. If I recollect right, that is what I done.

Q. Do you remember what date that was?

A. Around the 3rd, I believe, of July.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. We went back over to 109 North Euclid looking for my wife. She still was not there. I went to her mother's house and she was there sitting on the front porch worrying where the girls was. I told her -

MR. ERBECKER: We object to any conversation.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Where did you go?

A. My wife and I and my son went back over to her house and on the way I told my wife -

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Where did you go, not what you said outside the presence of the defendants?

A. We went back to 3850 East New York Street.

Q. Who was there then?

A. Mrs. Baniszewski and her children.

Q. Did you see any of these defendants there at that time?

A. No.

Q. What time of day or night was it when you and your wine got there, and Danny?

A. It seems like to me it was around 11:00 o'clock before we ever found her.

Q. Daytime?

A. Daytime.

Q. Who was there besides Mrs. Baniszewski and her children?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Your girls?

A. Yes.

Q. Which girls?

A. Sylvia -

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to that question.

Q. What did you do when you got back there the 3rd of July?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Who did you find when you got back?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

MR. NEW: I would like to hear out of the presence of the jury.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen, retire to the jury room two or three minutes. Don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion on the case till the case is finally submitted to you. Jury excused. Court will remain in session.

JURY EXCUSED.

THE COURT: It is too remote.

MR. NEW: I can't think of anything more relevant than the original arrangement with this defendant, who is charged with murder, and when she arranged to keep the girls, and what the arrangement was.

THE COURT: That part will be alright. You ask whose children were there. I don't know.

MR. NEW: My question was - what did you do when you came back to Mrs. Wright's house. It blocks us, the entire arrangement between the parties.

THE COURT: Why don't you ask for the conversation - did you have conversation with her. Then it is objectionable to those who were not there. What did you do when you went there is objectionable. If you had a conversation, you can state the conversation. Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Next question, please.

Q. Mr. Likens, did you have a conversation with Mrs. Wright when you arrived back there July 3?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. State what you said and what she said?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

A. She said that she would like to take care of the children because we was going to go to the fair down in southern Indiana and I had discussed it with my wife after I picked her up at her mother's house. We both agreed since she had children about the same age we would leave them there and we decided to pay her $10.00 per week for each child.

Q. Did you say anything else or did she say anything else?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did the children stay there?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. Did they have any clothing?

A. No, we went to Lebanon and got their clothing.

Q. The same day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What day did you say that was Sylvia and Jenny stayed there with Mrs. Wright the first time?

A. As far as I can recollect about the 3rd of July.

Q. Do you remember what day of the week it was?

A. I believe it was on Friday.

Q. Now, did you then leave the city with your wife?

A. No.

Q. How long did you stay here?

A. We left Sunday morning early.

Q. The following Sunday?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you go?

A. To Brownstown, Indiana.

Q. What did you do there?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. How long did you stay there?

A. A week.

Q. Then where did you go?

A. Well, we came back to Indianapolis and visited our children.

Q. What children?

A. Sylvia Marie Likens and Jenny Fay Likens.

Q. Where did you visit them?

A. At Mrs. Baniszewski's house.

Q. Did you go into the house?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. Did you talk with the girls?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. Did you talk to them in the presence of any of these defendants?

A. No.

Q. Did you talk to Mrs. Wright at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you say and what did she say?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained as to Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

A. The main thing I mailed a Money Order from Brownstown and as soon as I seen her I handed her $20.00 more.

Q. During the time Sylvia stayed with Mrs. Wright, how much did you pay?

A. Around $300.00 somewhere.

Q. Did you have receipts for that much money?

A. No, I don't.

Q. How much do you have receipts for?

A. For $200.00 or more. But every time we went to see the children I paid her cash. It saved the Money Order. I knew I was going there anyway.

Q. Who did you give the money to?

A. To Mrs. Baniszewski.

Q. At this time when Sylvia stayed there with Mrs. Wright, was she good to her?

A. Yes, she had good health.

Q. Was she good to her?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. When did you next see the children after you returned from Brownstown?

A. We seen them - well it is kind of a long story. We got back Sunday and went there and then I did not realize I had another fair with another party.

MR. BOWMAN: We object to all that and ask for the time.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. When did you next see the girls Jenny and Sylvia?

A. Well, about two weeks before the State Fair.

Q. The month of August?

A. Yes.

Q. During the period of time, had you observed anything out of the way or out of order at Mrs. Wright's house?

A. I did not.

Q. When did you next see them after the month of August?

A. We seen them before I left after the State Fair and we seen them before we left to to Saganaw, Michigan.

Q. After the Indiana State Fair?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you see them?

A. We went to Mrs. Baniszewski 's house.

Q. During all the visits in the house, did you go in any other part or the house besides the living room?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. Did you ever go upstairs?

A. Not that I recollect.

Q. Did you ever go to the basement?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, sir, after you went to Saganaw, when did you next see the children?

A. After the Indiana State Fair, three weeks.

Q. Do you remember what date that was?

A. Well, the State Fair was over on the 9th, about the last of September.

Q. Where did you visit them at that time?

A. At Mrs. Baniszewski's.

Q. How long would you stay on these visits?

A. At her house?

Q. Yes.

A. It varied. A half hour, an hour.

Q. Did you talk with both your girls?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. During the period of time, the latter part of September, did you have conversation with her at that time?

A. I am sorry, I don't understand.

Q. This visit you just related, the latter part of September - did you have conversation with Mrs. Wright?

A. Yes, I usually always did.

Q. Do you remember particularly what she might have said or what you said?

A. Not in general.

Q. Did she tell you anything was wrong?

A. No, sir.

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What did she say, what did you say?

A. She said Sylvia would like to start back to school and I was all for it, I said, if she was sincere.

Q. Where?

A. To Tech.

Q. Do you know if she did that?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. When did you next see them, sir?

A. After September, the last of September, you mean?

Q. Whenever the next time was you saw them?

A. Well, you see we came back from Michigan after three weeks and then we was home and I bought a lunchstand of my own. We went to see them frequently.

Q. What was the last time you visited them in the Wright home?

A. October 5 or 6.

Q. What year?

A. 1965.

Q. Now, Mr. Likens, during all the visits there or any of the visits did you see any of the other defendants there besides Mrs. Wright?

A. Yes, I seen Paula there.

Q. Can you identify her to the jury, please?

A. Yes, the one sitting behind the gentleman in the center. (indicating defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski)

MR. NEW: Let the record show the witness indicates Paula Baniszewski, the defendant.

Q. Did you see any of the other defendants?

A. No.

Q. Now, during the period of time they lived with Mrs. Wright, did you buy clothing for them?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever give them any money?

A. Yes, I give - I don't know who took the money. I give money for a pair of shoes for Sylvia.

Q. Was there any other money you left there?

A. Well, I think I have. I can't recollect for sure, not on my oath.

Q. And did they ever ask you for anything you denied them?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is it correct to say, sir, October 5, 1965 was the last time you saw your daughter alive?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When and how did you learn she was dead?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Where were you when you learned she was dead?

A. In a hotel in Jacksonville, Florida.

Q. What were you doing?

A. Sleeping.

Q. Were you working there?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. What were you doing?

A. I had a lunch stand, I was operating a lunch stand.

Q. How were you notified of her death?

A. By telephone.

Q. Do you know who called you?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What did you do then?

A. I immediately got dressed and took a taxi to the fairgrounds to get a guy that worked for me to get a car and he run me to the airport. I missed the plane by two minutes. I had to wait there three hours, till 5:00 before I could get a plane home.

Q. Who accompanied you home?

A. My wife.

Q. Did you attend the funeral?

A. Yes.

Q. Where in your daughter buried?

A. Oak Hill Cemetery, Lebanon, Indiana.

Q. When was the first time you saw the defendants John Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard?

A. I think I have seen the boy at her house. I can't remember when. He is not anything to specially look at.

Q. Which boy?

A. Her youngest boy. I can't remember for sure - it seems like I might have seen him once.

Q. When was the first time you saw the defendant Richard Hobbs?

A. Here in the courtroom.

MR. BOWMAN: May I approach the bench?

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

MR. BOWMAN: Mr. New, may I see you up here? (out of hearing of the jury) State's Exhibit No. 23 was admitted in evidence by the State without objection and is portrait of the decedent in this case. It was identified by the witness and passed to the jury. There is no reason for any further identification, certainly not this way to this witness - the father of the decedent. It is inflammatory.

THE COURT: (in hearing of the jury) Ladies and Gentlemen, retire to the jury room a minute or two. During the recess, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion on the case till it is finally submitted to you.

JURY EXCUSED.

THE COURT: Alright, the jury is out of the room. The State of Indiana intends to do what?

MR. NEW: Have him identify his daughter as Sylvia, the same person on the slab at the morgue and the same person at the scene of death.

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

MR. RICE: Yes.

MR. ERBECKER: I would like to read an objection. The defendant Gertrude Baniszewski objects because the proposed exhibit is not necessary to prove the corpus delicti and for the reason prior exhibits adequately, appropriately establish the death of the decedent and the identity of the decedent. The sole purpose of this is to prejudice the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski and only inflame and prejudice the jury to such point it would be highly detrimental to Gertrude Baniszewski.

MR. BOWMAN: Your Honor, the defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard would like the record to show that the deputy prosecuting attorney, Mr. LeRoy New, had, face down in front of the witness State's Exhibit No. 19 and State's Exhibit No. 2. I have these and would like to show them to the court right now and for the record state that State's Exhibit No. 23 is a portrait of the decedent. It was identified by the witness now on the stand. It was offered in evidence without objection from any of the defendants. State's Exhibit No. 19 and State's Exhibit No. 2 are inflammatory exhibits. They were admitted in evidence over the objection of the defendants but admitted nevertheless. The only purpose that could be served by showing State's Exhibit No. 19 and No. 2 to this witness, whose testimony has shown he is the father of the decedent, would be to elicit an emotional response in front of the jury, which would be certainly a natural consequence of doing that. There is no reason to do that. His showing these exhibits to the witness will not aid in the identification of the decedent. The jury now has all the exhibits before them. They themselves could compare on the question of identity. For those reasons, we object and respectfully request the instruct the deputy prosecutor not to display State's Exhibit No. 2 or No. 19 in the presence of the jury, all for the purpose of avoiding a mistrial.

MR. RICE: Paula Marie Baniszewski objects to admission of and display of State's Exhibits No. 19 and No. 2 as they would serve no purpose the prosecutor has not already accomplished.

MR. NEDEFF: I will join Mr. Rice and Mr. Bowman and make the same objection assigning the same reasons.

THE COURT: Mr. New, I can see their objection to Exhibit No. 19 and I think Exhibit No. 19 has been identified with Exhibit No. 2.

MR. NEW: It has.

THE COURT: Let me - I am going to sustain the objection to Exhibit No. 19. I think, from the face of it you can understand why.

MR. NEW: We have no objection if he says they have been tied together.

THE COURT: Exhibit No. 2 will be admitted and Exhibit No. 19 will not be shown to the witness. Exhibit No. 2, yes.

MR. BOWMAN: We renew our objection to Exhibit No. 2 for the same reasons I gave the court in objecting to Exhibits No. 19 and No. 2.

THE COURT: The corpus delicti has to be proven by somebody. I don't know anybody the State would have other than this witness who knows the person. As far as No. 19, I can understand. As far as Exhibit No. 2, I think it would be admissible.

MR. NEW: Your Honor, they are in evidence.

THE COURT: I said they are in evidence. You are going to show the exhibit to the witness for the purpose of showing that is the person named in the indictment.

MR. NEW: That is right. The State takes the position in accordance with the Supreme Court. A murder has been committed and the murderer cannot complain of the mess it makes just because it is gruesome.

THE COURT: 19 does not answer that.

MR. NEW: I have no objection to identifying one or the other. I do have to tie it up.

MR. BOWMAN: If that is the court's ruling, I ask at this time, with the juryoutside of the courtroom, that the prosecutor show the witness State's Exhibit No. 2, because I am sure that any emotional response that is elicited will be elicited the first time the exhibit is seen. It will be minimized in the presence of the jury, and a completely unnecessary emotional scene will be avoid, I hope.

THE COURT: Do you have any objections?

MR. NEW: I do. I will say this. The witness has seen both exhibits, has identified them before he came on the witness stand. And we run our case and Mr. Bowman does not.

THE COURT: Alright.

MR. ERBECKER: Let the record show Gertrude Baniszewski objects to the court's ruling with reference to the exhibits that are going to be shown, the reasons which were advanced and for the further reason the record is barren of any denial of any identification of the deceased person.

THE COURT: That is the purpose as I understand, of the introduction of Exhibit No. 2. With that in mind, bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Your next question.

Q. Mr. Likens, it is necessary for me to show you State's Exhibit No. 2. I ask you to examine that and tell the jury if that is your daughter, Sylvia Marie Likens?

A. Yes.

MR. NEW: Cross examine.

THE COURT: You are instructed by the court the photograph was admitted in evidence for evidence aiding the jury in determining certain facts. You are instructed not to permit the photographs to inflame your minds, not to any extent permit the photographs to bias or prejudice you against the defendants. They are not in the record for that purpose. The defendants are entitled your cool, calm, free deliberation. This is the only purpose for which this court admitted it in evidence. You may now cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Mr. Likens, how old are you, sir?

A. Forty, sir.

Q. When were you and Mrs. Likens married?

A. We was married March 22, 1944.

Q. Where did you and Mrs. Likens first live after you got married?

A. We lived on East Washington Street in an apartment.

Q. In Indianapolis here?

A. In Indianapolis.

Q. What was the address there, do you know?

A. Well, it was about 2200, about East State and Washington - 2000 on the north side of the street.

Q. How long did you live there?

A. About three months.

Q. Where did you next move to?

A. I can't remember.

Q. Was it in Indianapolis?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember what street it was?

A. No, sir, I am sorry.

Q. Alright, do you know how long you lived at the second place you moved to?

A. No, sir, I don't know where it was at.

Q. Did you stay there a year?

A. If I had a minute to think.

Q. Go right ahead, sir.

A. I was working for Prestolite Battery in Speedway when I got married. I was trying to remember.

Q. How long did you work for Prestolite Battery?

A. Not too long, about three months, four maybe.

Q. Where did you next work?

A. That is back pretty far. Well, I went in service June 3, 1944.

Q. June 3, 1944 you went to service. Where did you go?

A. I went to the navy, sir.

Q. How long were you in the navy?

A. Just under two years.

Q. Where were you stationed?

A. Well, I had training at Great Lakes and Fort Pierce, Florida; Norfolk, Virginia and took a ship.

Q. When were you discharged from the navy?

A. February 8, 1946.

Q. Where did you move to when you got out of the navy February 1946?

A. I bought a restaurant at 2338 North Illinois.

Q. Did you live there too?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where did you live?

A. We had an apartment, but I can't remember where it was.

Q. How long did you have the restaurant?

A. Well, I had it a short time because - if you want me to tell you - I was not too good at formalities and the man said "I will get you a lease" and I paid him for the restaurant and come to find out he did not even own the restaurant.

Q. How much did you pay him?

A. $400.00 - not for the equipment, just for the lease.

Q. Where did you live at this time, Mr. Likens, when you had the restaurant?

A. We lived mostly east. I can't remember.

Q. Do you remember what street it was?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever live any place longer than three months?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where?

A. In the latter part of '46.

Q. Where was it at?

A. I went to work for J.D. Adams, just off Belmont and Washington Street.

Q. How long did you work there?

A. I was there about a year and a half.

Q. Where did you live then?

A. I lived on Belmont Street.

Q. What number?

A. Well in the 100 block north in an apartment.

Q. How long did you live there?

A. All the time I worked at the factory.

Q. A year and a half?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you move to then?

A. That was -

Q. The latter part of 1947 when you left there, was it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Alright?

A. I went to work for Lux Laundry.

Q. Where did you live at that time?

A. In Lebanon, Indiana.

Q. What street?

A. On West Noble Street.

Q. October or November 1946, was it?

A. No, it was '48. You see I worked for J.D.Adams the latter part of '46 and '47.

Q. Where did you work February 1946?

A. February 6, I worked for Uncle Sam.

Q. You told me you got out February 6?

A. February 8 is what I said.

Q. What did you do from February 8 till the latter part of '46?

A. I did have a little money when I got out of service and I bought the restaurant. For six months, I did not do hardly anything.

Q. You were in Lebanon in 1948, right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you work there?

A. Lux Laundry.

Q. How long did you stay there?

A. Approximately two years.

Q. Now then you lived in Lebanon from '48 to '50, did you?

A. Approximately.

Q. Where did you move in 1950?

A. I moved to Tindall Town on South Holt Road. It was a service man's project and they had reasonable rent.

Q. How long did you live there?

A. Approximately a year and a half or two years. I worked for Mouldings Division.

Q. Now in 1952 where did you move?

A. 1741 Union Street. I worked for Gregg Cleaners. I started there in '52.

Q. How long did you live at 1741 Union?

A. About two years.

Q. In 1943 where did you move?

A. '53?

Q. '53?

A. I moved to 112 South Paris.

Q. How long were you there?

A. Till '59, I was there a long time.

Q. In 1959?

A. 2954 North Adams. That is where I bought the first house.

Q. How long did you live there?

A. Two years.

Q. Where did you move in 1961?

A. To 3451 North Leland.

Q. How long were you there?

A. A year and a half.

Q. What years were you there, the dates you were there at 3451?

A. Let's see, it would be '62 because I bought a new '62 television.

Q. In 1962 where did you move?

A. 3830 East New York Street.

Q. How long did you live there?

A. Four or five months.

Q. Where did you go from there?

A. 1726 North Colorado, where I bought another house.

Q. 1726 North Colorado?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you live there?

A. About two years, a year and a half or two years.

Q. Where did you move from there?

A. 2543 Fairfax, around Thompson and Keystone.

Q. How long did you live there?

A. Approximately six months.

Q. Then where did you move?

A. 2716 East New York Street.

Q. How long did you live there?

A. Until the time we went to California in February 1965.

Q. February 1965?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All fourteen places where you moved all family was with you, as soon as the children were born they always lived with you, right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I think you testified you and your wife were separated. How many times did you separate?

A. Well, in twenty-two years I imagine we have been separated six, seven or eight times.

Q. Six, seven or eight times?

A. I would not know for sure. It might be four times.

Q. How long was the greatest length of time you separated, you and your wife?

A. I can remember I was living at Lebanon and we must have been separated a couple of months. We never was separated very long.

Q. What year was that?

A. Well, it was just before the oldest twins were born because I went back when I went to the hospital to see her.

Q. That would be -

A. '46.

Q. '46?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was the last time you were separated prior to 1965?

A. A long time. I could not tell you, sir.

Q. Now, Mr. Likens, did you ever indulge in the use of intoxicants during your married life?

A. Very much. I drank.

Q. You never got convicted, did you?

A. No, sir, I never drank that much.

Q. Was that the reason for the separation?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you ever arrested and convicted for anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, I think you testified - were some of the children saying "Mommie is in jail"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know what she was arrested and convicted for?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was it?

A. Shoplifting.

Q. What court was it in, do you know?

A. This is the first time I was ever in this court house. I don't know.

Q. Was it in one of the Municipal Courts?

A. I don't know.

Q. Do you know what sentence was imposed?

A. Well, it was the first offense. She had never done anything in her life since I been married to her.

Q. How much time?

A. She did not serve any. She was on probation.

Q. Probation?

A. Evidently.

Q. Do you remember the date of her conviction?

A. No, sir, I don't.

Q. Was it 1965?

MR. NEW: He said he did not know. We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. You supported your children all your married life?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You never were on public welfare, were you?

A. Yes, they was.

Q. I thought you said you supported them?

A. I still supported them.

Q. They were on public welfare when?

A. It was back when - I don't know exactly when - but times when you go to a door with five children and try to get a house they act like you are out of your mind.

Q. The question is when did the children go on public welfare?

A. I can't remember.

Q. You can't remember the year, sir?

A. No, I don't.

Q. After you got out of the navy or before?

A. After.

Q. Around 1950, do you think?

A. That would be a good guess.

A. After 1950?

A. Around 1950.

Q. How long were they on welfare?

A. I can't remember.

Q. A week?

A. A year - six months, I don't know for sure. It has been a long time.

Q. Here in Marion County?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, do you know whether or not there was a citation ever filed against you by the Marion County Department of Public Welfare for child neglect?

A. No, sir.

Q. You don't know or it was not?

A. I don't know anything like that.

Q. Did you ever abandon your wife and children since you were married to them?

A. In what respect?

Q. What the word implied, to leave them someplace without food or clothing?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. You would remember if you did it, would you?

A. Sir?

Q. You would remember if you did it?

A. I don't understand what you are saying.

Q. You would remember if you ever abandoned your children?

A. Yes, I believe I would.

Q. You answer is you never did?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. You never abandoned your wife, left her anyplace?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. Now, I think you testified on direct examination you gave the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski money for the children, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How much did you give her?

A. Cash

Q. When.

A. Is that what you mean?

Q. Yes.

A. As far as I can remember, when I come back from Brownstown I give her $20.00. A couple or three days later - we had another fair with another party. I wanted to try and save money. I went back two or three days later and give $40.00 more. I said "We are going to be up in Wisconsin and I will just pay you $40.00 now and I won't have to pay till I get back".

Q. When did you give her $40.00?

A. Two or three days after I got back from Brownstown. I left the 5th and got back the 13th, whatever Sunday was. I gave it to her the following Wednesday, the 16th of July.

Q. The 16th of July?

A. Around there.

Q. You gave her $40.00? You said you gave her $20.00 before that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What date was that?

A. I got back on - I left on the 5th and got back - if I had to be exact I better get a calender. I'd say around the 12th or 13th.

Q. July?

A. Yes.

Q. July 12 or 13 you gave her what, $20.00

A. Yes.

Q. That was the first payment?

A. No, sir.

Q. When was the first?

A. I mailed $20.00 from Brownstown on Tuesday.

Q. What date was that?

A. When I got the money order receipt, around the 8th or 9th.

Q. July?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that the first payment?

A. Yes, sir, it was.

Q. Alright, that is three payments, July 8, $20.00 and July 12 or 13, $40.00. When was the next?

A. Two weeks.

MR. NEW: I would like to ask a preliminary question. Do you have the receipts?

A. Yes.

MR. NEW: Will you get them?

A. My wife has them in her purse.

MR. NEW: We object to the question. If he has the receipts that is the best evidence. It would show exactly.

MR. ERBECKER: This is cross examination. I did not butt in while he was talking.

THE COURT: Is there an objection, sir?

MR. NEW: We do object. He has the receipts.

THE COURT: The receipts are the best evidence.

Q. Can you produce the receipts, Mr. Likens?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Right now?

A. Very shortly.

MR. ERBECKER: I would like to see the receipts from this witness.

THE COURT: Go get them. Are they here in the courtroom?

A. My wife has them upstairs.

THE COURT: How long will that take, Mr. New?

MR. NEW: A few minutes.

MR. NEW SENT FOR THE RECEIPTS AND GAVE THEM TO THE WITNESS.

Q. Do you have there, given to you by Mr. New, some receipts indicative of the payments you or your wife made to the defendant here?

A. Yes, I have the times when we were out of town.

Q. Then I take it the receipts are limited to those times you were out of town only?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. May I see them?

A. You bet. There is one mailed from Jacksonville when Sylvia was killed that has never been opened.

MR. ERBECKER: I move that stricken "when Sylvia was killed".

THE COURT: Sustained. The answer will go out. The jury will ignore that statement in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. These receipts you just gave me constituted all the payments you made her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Well, then, what other payments did you make and when?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. The receipts would be the best evidence.

THE COURT: Objection overruled. He just said there were other payments. Overruled.

A. As I stated previously, I give her money and then I went to Wisconsin and I came back to Indianapolis and I paid her again in cash because I was going to be in Indianapolis.

Q. The question is, when did you give her money other than when shown by the receipts?

A. The exact dates?

Q. Approximate date?

A. After - just before the State Fair started I paid her.

Q. Physically handed her money?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What date was that?

A. Well the fair started August 28 - around the 26th of August.

Q. You gave her what?

A. Well, I can't remember whether I gave her $20.00 or $40.00. I believe $40.00 because it was the State Fair. I usually paid her in advance.

Q. Did she give you a receipt?

A. No, I did not ask her for it.

Q. August 26 you gave her $40.00

A. That is what I recollect.

Q. When was the next payment.

A. We went to Saganaw, Michigan.

Q. When did you next give her money?

A. I did not pay her any more till after we was in Saganaw, Michigan. Every time I was out of town it will show a receipt was made. Every time I was in town there is no receipt there. So every time I was out of town it will show - a receipt will show for itself.

Q. The question is, after August 26, when did you next give her some money?

MR. NEW: We object. The receipt would be the best evidence.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Other than the receipts?

A. Saganaw, by money-order.

Q. Other than the receipts, when did you next give her money?

A. In Centerville we mailed her money.

Q. Centerville?

A. Michigan, and then -

Q. How much did you give her then other then by receipt?

A. The receipt should be $20.00 outside of the time I was here in Indianapolis and I was going to be gone and I was going to have to pay her anyway so I paid her a couple of times, I know, $40.00.

Q. When was that?

A. The 26th and the time before I left to go to Monroe, Wisconsin, around the 15th or 16th of July.

Q. July 15 - what did you give her then?

A. If I can remember, I give her $40.00.

Q. Physically gave it to her? Did you get a receipt?

A. No, sir.

Q. August 26, $40.00 and July 15, $40.00. When did you next give her money, physically, when you did not get a receipt?

A. When was the last date?

Q. You told me August 26th.

A. Then that was before the State Fair. I paid for the State Fair and I went to Saganaw and I mailed $20.00 from Saganaw.

Q. When did you next physically hand her some money, other than the time showed by the receipts?

A. Three weeks from the time I left after the Indiana State Fair.

Q. What?

A. That is the time I handed her money. I mailed her money twice from Saganaw and Centerville.

Q. When was the next time you handed her money, physically out there or elsewhere?

A. I will have to think. I came in from Hillsdale, Michigan. I was gone three weeks after the Indiana State Fair and I went over and handed her $20.00.

Q. What date was that, sir?

A. Well, around - I'd say pretty close around the 30th of September.

Q. How much did you give her then, $20.00?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you give her any money after September 30, 1965?

A. Yes, sir, just before -

Q. Physically?

A. Yes, I handed her - the last time I seen Sylvia - the 5th of October - I handed her $20.00 before I left.

Q. Any other times other than the four you recounted when you physically handed the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski money?

A. If I did, I can't remember.

Q. Now then, these four occasions that you testified to, plus the receipts you gave me, constitute the sole and only payments, is that right?

A. As far as I can remember.

Q. And you had never seen the defendant prior to the occasion you testified to, is that right?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. And you did not ask her for any receipt when you physically gave her money on those occasions, right?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. You never went in any room except the living room, right?

A. Until the last time I was there.

Q. When was the last time you were there?

A. October 5.

Q. Where did you go October 5 with reference to going in any other room?

A. We set in the kitchen at the table. That was the only time I was ever in there.

Q. The only time you were in the kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. You never were upstairs any time?

A. I might have gone upstairs once to use the bathroom. I can't remember exactly when it was.

Q. You never went to the basement?

A. No, sir.

Q. Up to that time, you had no complaints from your two daughters as to their treatment?

A. Not that I could see.

Q. October 5 was the last time you saw your daughters?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you write to your daughters after October 5?

A. My wife did.

Q. Did you write to your daughter after October 5?

A. No, I was too busy, my wife done all the writing.

Q. Did you ever telephone your daughter?

A. They did not have a phone.

Q. Did your deceased daughter write to you?

A. No, sir, I can't remember. I don't think so. We were not any one place too long to receive mail.

Q. I thought you said you had a fair concession stand in Florida?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you have that?

A. We was there approximately three weeks. We were not at one fair three weeks. We went to one fair that was not too good and we did not work.

Q. Did you ever have a conversation with the defendant here relative to you taking your daughter away from her home on October 5 there?

A. In what respect?

Q. Any respect?

A. You mean did I ask her if I was going to take her away? I don't understand.

Q. Did you have any conversation with the defendant here relative to your taking your daughter away from her home, yes or no, did you?

A. No, not that I know of.

Q. Did you have?

A. She knew I was going to return within three weeks. I told her - my kids and her both.

Q. You told Mrs. Baniszewski you would be coming back in three weeks?

A. Yes, sir, I did, yes, sir.

Q. That would make it the 26th for you to come back, would it?

A. Well, I did not mean it in exact words because I had to wait till the fair was over, which would have been three or four days longer, actually.

Q. Mr. Likens, had you ever had any disciplinary problems with any of your children?

MR. NEW: We object. The other children would not be relevant.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Had you ever had disciplinary problems with the deceased girl?

A. Not myself.

Q. What do you mean?

A. I am speaking for myself. I am on the stand for myself.

Q. To your knowledge, did your wife ever have disciplinary problems?

A. No, sir, they were very close.

Q. Is it a fact, that in your moving from place to place in the fourteen times there you said since you left the navy, is it a fact, your family living environment was not conducive to a wholesome atmosphere for all your children, was it?

A. Was it - would you mind repeating that, please?

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.


A. All I know is that we had a hard time finding a house for five children a lot of times.

Q. Were you ever compelled to leave any of your residences because of your non-payment of rent?

A. No, sir, I don't think I have, that I can remember.

Q. You never have?

A. I got behind. I don't think I ever beat anybody out of any rent.

Q. Were you ever forced to leave because of any eviction notices?

A. I can't remember.

Q. Would you say you were not?

A. I just don't remember, sir.

Q. Now then, when you moved over there on East New York Street where was that, the first time you moved there?

A. Was that the first time I moved there?

Q. 2715 - was it then?

A. No, I lived at 3830 the first time.

Q. When?

A. That was '63.

Q. '63 was it?

A. '62 or '63.

Q. 3830 East New York was in the neighborhood where your children were staying with Mrs. Baniszewski, wasn't it?

A. Yes, sir, it was.

Q. What is the name of the grocery you traded at?

A. When I lived on East New York I used to trade at Standard.

Q. And did you ever trade at any different grocery store while you were living at 3830 East New York?

A. Well, I guess everybody - yes, I traded in a New York Street store.

Q. Did you trade in a different grocery store at East New York Street?

A. Yes, we traded in the East New York Street store quite often. We only lived a block from there.

Q. Were you ever refused credit at any of the stores because you would not pay your grocery bill?

A. I never run a grocery bill.

Q. The answer is "no"?

A. That is right.

Q. Isn't it a fact, some of the conflict between you and your wife was the economic necessity of you making more money there?

A. I don't understand.

Q. In other words, did you and your wife ever quarrel about your drinking?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What was the main result of you and your wife separating - was the main reason because of your personal habits or by joint agreement?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did your wife ever file suit for divorce as a result of the numerous times you were separated?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you and your wife ever have quarrels, arguments, altercations in the presence of the children, including the deceased girl, any time?

A. I believe everybody does.

Q. Did you, sir?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And how many occasions would you say there were during the period of the deceased girl's life, from the time she was about five years old till sometime in August 1965, would you say?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What preparation or arrangements did you make - if any - prior to your agreeing with the defendant that your children would live there?

A. Well, like I said, I was talking to Mrs. Wright and never even thinking about her wanting to take care of the children. I was going to take them back to my mother's in Lebanon. We got to talking and she openly admitted she would take care of the children and treat them like her own. That is exactly what she said, the exact words.

Q. The brief talk was the sum total or your negotiations.

A. We talked that evening and when I got hold of my wife we had another discussion. I wanted to see if it was alright with my wife and we all talked awhile and we asked the girls and everything and we all decided with the other children and everything it would he an environment for them to be with other children.

Q. Who cared for the children while your wife was at the police court or in jail, if you know?

A. They went over to a neighbor's - some kids they knew when we lived there. That is how they got acquainted with the Baniszewskis'.

Q. Who took care of the children?

A. Well, the same night she was in jail, I was in Lebanon. Evidently they stayed at 109 Euclid, as far as I know.

Q. With whom?

A. With themselves.

Q. How long did they stay there by themselves, if know?

A. As far as I know, over night.

Q. Then you arrived in Indianapolis and discovered your wife was in jail, had been arrested, and no one was looking after the children. You never saw Mrs. Baniszewski before and after one conference with her and a conference with your wife, you agreed to let your children stay with total strangers, with Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. After two conferences. I had a conference and me and my wife, that is right.

MR. ERBECKER: Nothing further.

MR. RICE: Paula Marie Baniszewski has no questions to ask Mr. Likens.

THE COURT: Defendants Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

MR. BOWMAN: No questions.

THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs may question.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. JAMES NEDEFF, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
RICHARD HOBBS

Q. Where are you working?

A. I am not at present, I am what you call laid up till the fairs start up north in approximately three weeks or a month.

Q. You testified you had some difficulty finding people to take you and your wife and five children in a house. I think your words were "they thought you were crazy".

A. Yes, sir, indeed, indeed.

Q. You moved a lot of times, numerous times?

A. Yes.

Q. You enumerated close to twenty and I don't think you even mentioned 3451 Leland and you said something about living at Belmont and Washington on the west side. And the times you lived up around Lebanon. Those people did not turn you away, did they?

A. No. That was earlier, right after the war. This is around '50 when we had our children.

Q. Sylvia and Jenny had older brothers and sisters who lived here and were married, didn't they?

A. How is that?

Q. You have a daughter named Diane Shoemaker?

A. Yes.

Q. She is older and is married?

A. Yes, she has been married three or four years.

Q. She lived here in the city?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. One time when you were moving you were with Diane and you know where she lived?

A. When?

Q. Did you know where Diane, your daughter, was living at that time?

A. When?

Q. You testified the first week in July you joined the carnival?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you working with the carnival July 4, 1965?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You have got an older daughter named Diane?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When you and your wife left this city, July 3 to join the carnival, where was your daughter Diane living?

A. I don't know.

Q. Was she living with her husband then?

A. I don't know, she did not contact us too much.

Q. I asked was she living with her husband then?

A. I don't know.

Q. She lived within a block of 3850 East New York?

A. I don't know. I did not know she lived there.

Q. How many blocks is Sherman Drive from 3850 East New York Street?

A. Two blocks.

Q. Two blocks. How old is your son Danny?

A. Nineteen.

Q. Where was he living?

A. He was with me. He worked for me.

Q. Do you have any other older children?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did your wife ever, before you placed them with Mrs. Baniszewski, did she ever meet Mrs. Baniszewski and join in those conferences, arrangements you made for your two children to stay with her?

A. Did she? She did.

Q. How many times?

A. Once.

Q. But you had already made arrangements before she even knew where the children were, correct?

A. Not entirely.

Q. What do you mean by not entirely?

A. I still had to talk to my wife and see if it was alright with her, see if she thought it was a good deal, them staying. I was going to let my mother take care of them but she had her hands full.

Q. Your wife became aware of where the children were after a week or so had passed, is that correct?

A. No, sir.

Q. How much time?

A. One night and one day.

Q. She was in jail?

A. She was only in jail one night.

Q. When you were living at 119?

A. 109 North Euclid.

Q. She was in jail over night?

A. She was.

Q. You are not under arrest for gross neglect of children?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is your wife?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now you placed those children with Mrs. Wright the first week of July 1965 and you and your wife never made arrangements for Jenny going to school or Sylvia going to school in September, did you. You trusted Mrs. Wright to take care of that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You never brought any school clothes for the kids till October, is that correct?

A. No, sir.

Q. When did you bring them?

A. Right after we left them there we went straight to Lebanon and brought their clothes back.

MR. NEDEFF: No other questions.

THE COURT: Any other cross examination? Any re-direct?

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. LEROY NEW,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. Mr. Likens, I will hand you what has been marked for the purpose of identification State's Exhibit No. 24. I will ask you to examine that and tell the court and jury what those are?

A. These are money orders we have mailed to Mrs. Baniszewski at the time we was not in the city.

Q. Between what period of time do they represent payment to Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. From the time of July 5 till the last of September, I believe.

Q. What are the receipts - marked State's Exhibit No. 24 - total?

A. I have never totaled them myself.

Q. If you will, please.

A. O.K. $200.00. $220.00, I am sorry, there is $20.00 in here mailed from Jacksonville, Florida.

MR. NEW: At this time the State offers in evidence State's Exhibit No. 24.

THE COURT: Consisting of eleven items.

MR. RICE: No objection.

MR. NEDEFF: No objection from Richard Hobbs.

MR. BOWMAN: No objections.

THE COURT: Show them in evidence.

MR. NEW: At this time we ask permission for the jury to view them.

THE COURT: And shown to the jury.

WHEREUPON STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 24 (being an envelope of eleven receipts) WAS ADMITTED IN EVIDENCE,
SHOWN TO THE JURY, AND MADE A PART OF THIS RECORD AS FOLLOWS, TO-WIT:

STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 24 ATTACHED.

MR. NEW: Nothing further.

MR. BOWMAN: I have an omitted question, if I may.

THE COURT: An omitted question.

CROSS EXAMINATION (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. FORREST BOWMAN, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANTS,
COY HUBBARD AND JOHN STEPHAN BANISZEWSKI

Q. Mr. Likens, where are you living now, sir?

A. 1334 South Meridian Street, Lebanon, Indiana.

Q. 1334 South Meridian Street, Lebanon?

A. Yes.

Q. Is your daughter Jenny Likens living with you now?

A. She has not been the last few days, she has been staying in Indianapolis so she will be sure and be here.

Q. She is living with you?

A. Yes, sir, she is.

MR. BOWMAN: Nothing further.

MR. RICE: I would like to ask a question.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. GEORGE RICE, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
PAULA MARIE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Mr. Likens, at the time you entered into negotiations with Mrs. Baniszewski, did you ask her how many sleeping rooms there were in the house?

A. No, sir, I realized it was a large house.

Q. Did you ask her how many persons slept in the household as a matter of habit, being members of the household?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ask what kind of sleeping accommodations were going to be provided for your daughters, yes or no?

A. No, sir.

MR. RICE: No further questions.

MR. NEDEFF: One omitted question.

CROSS EXAMINATION (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. JAMES NEDEFF, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
RICHARD HOBBS

Q. You have been in that house how many times, on New York Street?

A. Eight times, ten times, I don't know.

Q. You never got beyond the living room?

A. I went in the kitchen the last time I was there. I don't have a practice - if she had invited me upstairs to look at the rooms, I would have. There was no question between her and I to go through the house.

Q. How many children did you know she had?

A. She had a baby and one ten and one eleven and one daughter three - three evidently.

Q. You only knew her by the name of Mrs. Wright?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you know she was married - a married woman or unmarried at that time?

A. My understanding was she had a husband in Germany, but I did not ask her if she was getting a divorce or likewise.

Q. You never saw any adult men there?

A. At one time there was a man there, a dark complected man and she said he was a friend of the family and I did not pay it no mind. I did not see anything out of the way or anything. He was at the dining room table, getting ready to eat, I guess.

MR. NEDEFF: No other questions.

THE COURT: Re-direct?

MR. NEW: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, by agreement of counsel and with the consent of the State and defendants given in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. Tomorrow is a legal holiday. There will be no court. We will resume Wednesday, May 4th at 9:30 A.M. During this adjournment, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Do not form or express any opinion on the case till it is finally submitted to you. Don't read any newspaper articles that may appear about the case and don't watch anything or listen to anything that may be broadcast about the case. Court will remain in session and the jury and alternate jurors are excused, till Wednesday, May 4th at 9:30, at which time you will report to the jury room.

JURY EXCUSED.

COURT ADJOURNED.

MAY 4, 1965, AND THE TRIAL OF THIS CAUSE WAS RESUMED.

THE COURT: Are you ready for the jury?

MR. NEDEFF: Yes.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Next witness, State of Indiana.

MR. NEW: We are through with -

THE COURT: I thought we were Friday. Any other questions of this witness?

MR. ERBECKER: None by Gertrude Baniszewski, Your Honor.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

THE COURT: Next witness, please.
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