Don Campbell - Detective Sergeant - Case in Chief Resumed

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Don Campbell - Detective Sergeant - Case in Chief Resumed

Postby admin » October 31st, 2010, 6:41 pm

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

CASE IN CHIEF RESUMED.

THE COURT: Is there an unanswered question before the witness?

MR. NEW: Yes, Your Honor.

SGT. DON CAMPBELL ON THE STAND.

DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED,
QUESTIONS BY MR. LEROY NEW,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

THE COURT: With the understanding that the same objections and same preliminary questions and so on pertain to the question, the State of Indiana is permitted to re-ask the question.

Q. What did you say and what did the defendant Coy Hubbard say?

THE COURT: The objection has been sustained to this question on behalf of the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski and on behalf of defendant John Stephan Baniszewski. You will ignore the question and answers you will hear as a result of that question as to said defendants Gertrude Baniszewski and John Stephan Baniszewski. They are not to be used or considered by you in arriving at a verdict in this case as to said two defendants just mentioned to you. You may answer the question.

A. I asked Coy Hubbard if he had been involved in the incident with Sylvia Likens. At the time he said he had. I asked if he had - if he would like to give me a statement to his part and involvement in this thing and he said he would. I then advised him he did not have to give a statement and he also could have his parents or an attorney present at the time of giving the statement. He said he did not wish either one and would give a statement and at that time I took a statement from Coy Hubbard.

Q. Was it reduced to writing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was it signed by the defendant? Coy Hubbard?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Sgt. Campbell, I will hand you what has been marked for identification purposes as State's Exhibit No. 25 and ask you to examine that and tell the court and jury whether or not that is the statement about which you have been testifying?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was that statement read to the defendant before he signed it?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he read it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In whose presence did he sign it, besides yourself?

A. Sgt. Kaiser.

Q. Does that bear the signature of Coy Hubbard?

A. Yes, it does.

MR. NEW: The State offers in evidence State's Exhibit No. 25.

THE COURT: It is in evidence.

MR. BOWMAN: I have an objection. John Baniszewski objects to the exhibit for the reason it is hearsay. The defendant Coy Hubbard objects for reasons previously given.

THE COURT: Sustained as to John Stephan Baniszewski, as heretofore indicated. Overruled as to defendant Coy Hubbard.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained as to the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski, as heretofore stated.

MR. ERBECKER: We object to the reading of the exhibit for the reason her name is mentioned in it, by virtue of the reason heretofore advanced, namely, Gallegos - the defendant objects to it being read in evidence because of the reference to Gertrude Baniszewski.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may read Exhibit No. 25 to the jury. Let the record show Exhibit No. 25 is now read to the jury.

WHEREUPON STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 25 WAS ADMITTED IN EVIDENCE,
SHOWN TO THE JURY, AND MADE A PART OF THIS RECORD AS FOLLOWS, TO-WIT:
(admitted as to Coy Hubbard, Paula Marie Baniszewski and Richard Hobbs only)

STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 25 ATTACHED.

OCTOBER 27, 1965
INDIANAPOLIS, INDIANA

Statement of Coy Randolph Hubbard age 15, and White of 435 North Linwood Street, Indianapolis, Indiana, as given to Sgt, Campbell, Don of the Indianapolis Police Dept. Statement taken in the Juvenile Branch on October 27,1965 at 4:00 P.M.

Q. What is your name and where do you live?

A. Coy Randolph Hubbard, 435 North Linwood.

Q. What school do you attend and what grade are you in?

A. Howe, in the 10th.

Q. Do you know why you were brought to the Juvenile Branch and the offense you are charged with?

A. Yes, Injury to Person.

Q. Will you tell me in your own words what you did involving a Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes. I first saw Sylvia Likens, in August when she came to my house with Stephanie Baniszewski, she came to my house about two times, and the rest of the time, I saw her at Stephanie house, 3850 East New York Street. Some time in September I was at Stephanie house and I hit her with my hand, that is I hit Sylvia, I do not remember why I hit her, but Mrs. Wright had spanked her that day, before I got there. About 4 or 5 days later I went back over to Stephanie's and I flipped Sylvia on the floor, I think I did this because of something she said about Stephanie, about two days later I went over, and Sylvia was in the tub taking a bath, Mrs. Wright ask me go up stairs and tie her Sylvia to the bed, I went up and tied her hands and and feet. One other time I was over at the house I burned Sylvia on the arm with a match. Last week I was at the house and I took Sylvia down 2 or 3 steps of the basement stairs, and put her hands behind her and pushed her the rest of the way down. One other time me and John Baniszewski tied Sylvia up in the basement. I had tied her up in the basement one other time. On October 25th, I was at the house and I hit Sylvia with a broom, I think I hit her in the head, and later on she passed out, and Mrs. Wright took her to the basement. This is the last time I saw her, and she was alive.

Q. Have you seen other things take place involving Sylvia Likens, that you did not take part in?

A. Yes

Q. Will you tell me about them?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you at any time see Mrs. Wright hit Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes, She hit her a lot of times with her hand and one time with a broom.

Q. Did you at any time see Mrs. Wright burn Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes, I saw her burn her on the hand one time.

Q. Did you and a Ricky Hobbs, ever do anything to Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes, last Sat., we tied her up in the basement.

Q. At the time you and Ricky Hobbs tied Sylvia up in the basement was she burned and scratched on the stomach?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know who burned and scratched her on the stomach?

A. Yes, Ricky Hobbs told me he did it.

Q. Did you at any time see John Baniszewski hit Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes, He hit her a lot of times with his fist.

Q. Did you at any time see Mrs. Wright hit Sylvia with anything other than her hand?

A. Yes, One time I saw Mrs. Wright hit Sylvia in the head with a board.

Q. Do you have anything you would like to add to the above statement?

A. No.

Q. Can you read and write?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you understand this statement can be used in court for or a against you?

A. Yes.

Q. Were any threats or promises made to induce you to give this statement?

A. No.

Q. Did you understand you did not have to give this statement, and that you could have had your parents or an attorney present.

A. Yes.

Q. Will you sign this statement of your own free will?

A. Yes.

I have read the foregoing statement and it has been read to me by Sgt. Campbell and it is true.

END STATE'S EXHIBIT NO 25.

THE COURT: Ladies, and Gentlemen of of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, you will ignore that exhibit just read to you by the deputy prosecuting attorney, you will not consider same or use same in arriving at a verdict as to the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski and John Stephan Baniszewski.

MR. NEW: Cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Now, Officer, how long did you have this boy in the room before you give him his constitutional rights?

MR. BOWMAN: May I approach the bench?

THE COURT: Yes, lawyers, please.

MR. BOWMAN: Your Honor, we have been handling matters in the order of the names on the indictment. At this time I would like to ask -

THE COURT: By agreement of all parties, defendant Coy Hubbard may examine - cross examine the witness first.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. FORREST BOWMAN, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANTS,
COY HUBBARD AND JOHN STEPHAN BANISZEWSKI

Q. Sergeant, when was this statement taken?

A. October 27, 1965.

Q. Where?

A. Juvenile Branch of Police Headquarters.

Q. Is that here in the City-County Building?

A. Yes, sir, the east wing of the City-County Building.

Q. When did you first see Coy Hubbard that day?

A. Approximately 3:30 P.M.

Q. Where was he when you saw him?

A. Back in one of the interrogation rooms.

Q. Did you commence interrogating him at that time?

A. No, sir.

Q. When did you commence interrogating him?

A. At approximately 4:00 o'clock, a little after.

Q. Approximately 4:00. When did the interrogation cease?

A. I'd say approximately 6:00.

Q. About two hours then?

A. Yes.

Q. You say he was in the interrogation room?

A. Yes.

Q. Describe that room.

A. It has one door which has a window in it. The room is approximately 8x8 and it has two chairs in it, a desk and a chair for the desk, also a typewriter.

Q. Two chairs and a desk and a chair for the desk, three chairs, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have a typewriter there?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, what went on in there was not transcribed was it on any recording device?

A. No, sir.

Q. There is no way we have of getting access to anything like that?

A. No.

Q. Did you take down what was said in there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How did you do that?

A. In the form of a statement.

Q. In the form of a statement. Before taking the statement did you tell him what his rights were?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You told him he did not have to give a statement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That did not take long, did it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, you took down all his statement, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Verbatim?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you do that on the typewriter?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did you type out the question as you asked them and the answers as he gave them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So that would he his complete statement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did it take you two hours to type a page and a half?

A. In the form of conversation, yes.

Q. You typed down everything that was said?

A. When the statement was started, yes.

Q. Two hours for one page and a half? I will ask you if it is not a fact he told you, there at that time on October 25, Gertrude Wright hit that girl on the head with a broom and he took it away from her and broke it up so she could not do it?

MR. ERBECKER: We object:

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, you will ignore that question in arriving at a verdict as to the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski. Sustained as to the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski.

A. Would you repeat the question?

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. No, sir, he did not.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen, you will ignore that answer in arriving at a verdict in this case as to the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski.

MR. BOWMAN: I have nothing further.

THE COURT: Defendant Gertrude Baniszewski may cross examine the witness.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Did Sgt. Kaiser assist you in the interrogation of the boy?

A. He was in and out, yes, sir.

Q. You and he worked in relays, did you?

A. I was there all the time. He came in and out.

Q. Came in and assisted you and you would take time out, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. During the two hours, did you allow the boy to use the telephone?

A. No, sir.

Q. During that time, did you give the boy any water or coca cola or any food or anything?

A. I can't say as to food. I don't know whether he had a drink of water or not.

Q. Was he permitted to use the toilet facilities?

A. He would have been if he asked. I can't say whether he did or not.

Q. How big a place was it where you and Sgt. Kaiser interrogated the boy?

A. Approximately 8x8.

Q. How high?

A. The ceilings are approximately twelve feet high.

Q. Is it dark in there?

A. No, fairly light.

Q. There are no lights in there?

A. Yes.

Q. No windows?

A. Just in the door.

Q. He was in there along with two police officers?

A. Yes.

Q. You knew he was fourteen of fifteen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. His parents were not present?

A. No, sir.

Q. No attorney was present?

A. No, sir.

Q. No friends of his were present?

A. No.

Q. No adults were present?

A. No.

Q. You two police officers overawed him to extent he signed that, is that right?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was he nervous?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was there any evidence of fear?

A. No, sir.

Q. Any evidence of panic?

A. Nope.

Q. How come it took two hours to get the page and a half?

A. It was typed as he was giving it and we put the statement down as much as we could the way he said it.

Q. In other words, if he would say it to you, you would type it down, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are the one that put the question down, or was it Sgt. Kaiser?

A. Myself.

Q. Then all he had to do was put the answer down, was it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You spoke in an ordinary conversational tone, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And he spoke in an ordinary conversational tone, I assume?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you going to tell the jury it took an hour and a half or two hours to get a statement of a page and a half?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Less than a page and a half. What advice did you give the boy?

A. I don't understand the question.

Q. You said you advised him of his rights. What did you advise him?

A. I told him he did not have to give me a statement, he did not have to say anything to me without first consulting an attorney or his parents and having them present at the time he made the statement.

Q. What steps did you take to make sure he understood his constitutional rights after you explained them to him, anything?

A. Just through the explanation of them.

Q. Did you tell him what the consequences of his written statement were?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you tell him?

A. That it could be used in court for or against him.

Q. And did Sgt. Kaiser assist you any way?

A. Yes, sir, he was there present in the room.

Q. Pardon?

A. He was present there in the room.

Q. How long was this detention out there after you got the confession?

A. He was transported out to the Juvenile Center - I would say - approximately half an hour, I don't know for sure.

Q. He did want to see his parents, didn't he?

A. He did not ask to at this time, no.

Q. Did he ever, any time?

A. Not to me.

Q. Did he ever ask to see an attorney?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever take him in front of the Judge of Juvenile Court or any court?

A. I did not, no.

Q. Did anybody else, prior to your getting the statement?

A. Not that I know of, sir.

Q. Is it a fact, you told him he had better sign something if he wanted to get out pretty easy, or words to that effect?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never did?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you tell him his case would be tried in Juvenile Court, he would not be bound over to Criminal Court if he signed something, did you tell him that?

A. No, sir.

Q. What steps did you take to ascertain whether or not he knowingly, willingly, understanding waived his right to an attorney?

A. I just asked him if he would want to consult an attorney or want an attorney present.

Q. You used a fourteen year old boy's judgment to determine that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Nothing else?

A. No, sir.

MR. ERBECKER: On behalf of Gertrude Baniszewski, I urge the court to reconsider it's ruling and to withdraw the exhibit and admonish the jury to totally disregard it.

THE COURT: Overruled. Ladies and Gentlemen, you will ignore the statement and the conversation thereto in arriving at a verdict concerning Gertrude Baniszewski. Do not use same, consider same in arriving at a verdict in the case of Gertrude Baniszewski.

MR. BOWMAN: I have an omitted question.

CROSS EXAMINATION (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. FORREST BOWMAN, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANTS,
COY HUBBARD AND JOHN STEPHAN BANISZEWSKI

Q. Was he under arrest when you interrogated him?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the charge?

A. Injury to Person.

Q. Is that a charge used to detain juveniles in Juvenile Court?

A. It is a delinquent charge, yes,

Q. Not First Degree Murder, is it?

A. No, sir.

MR. BOWMAN: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Any cross examination for Paula Marie Baniszewski?

MR. RICE: Paula has no reason to fuss with this officer.

THE COURT: Any cross examination from defendant John Stephan Baniszewski?

MR. BOWMAN: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Any cross examination from defendant Richard Hobbs?

MR. NEDEFF: Not any, Your Honor.

MR. ERBECKER: I have one question. Has any evidence ever used in Juvenile court against Coy Hubbard on any charge?

A. Not to my knowledge, sir.

THE COURT: Any re-direct?

MR. NEW: No re-direct, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, let's recess for lunch. Can you all come back at 1:30 today? During this recess, remember what I told you before and don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion thereon till the case is finally submitted to you. By agreement of counsel and with the consent of parties given in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. The bailiff will take you to lunch. Be sure to return to the jury room so we can start court at 1:30 today. Don't read any newspaper articles that may appear about the case and don't watch or listen to anything that may be broadcast about the case. Jury and alternate jurors are excused. Court will remain in session.

WITNESS EXCUSED, AFTER BEING ADMONISHED.

JURY EXCUSED.

THE COURT: With reference to the motion for inspection of the premises, so the case can proceed with dispatch and without undue or unjust hurriedness, I wish the lawyers in the case - and that includes the prosecuting attorneys because they are lawyers - would confer when you all go out to visit the premises, so that I can have your unqualified consent. We are in recess till 1:30.

RECESS.

1:30 P.M. AND COURT RECONVENES.

THE COURT: We are all here. Are you ready for the next witness?

MR. NEW: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Who is the next witness?

MR. NEW: Jenny Likens.

MR. ERBECKER: I want to make a motion before the jury comes in. Before the court rules, Your Honor, I would like to offer evidence or at least interrogate the prospective witness for the purpose of the record or have the court do it. I think it comes within the purview of the rule laid down by the Supreme Court.

THE COURT: I think this matter invades the province of the jury. I think the question is whether the jury is going to believe or not believe. Any matters you can raise on the question of this motion can be raised on cross examination.

MR. ERBECKER: Is the court going to permit interrogation of this witness for the purpose of determining the question raised in the motion prior to her being a witness?

THE COURT: No, I don't think it is proper in a case of this kind to do that. I think the motion should be overruled. I think the law in Indiana is everybody is presumed to be of sound mind instead of unsound mind and you can cross examine the witness as to her veracity and so on. Show motion overruled.

MR. ERBECKER: Is the court going to deny my motion to introduce any evidence or to examine this witness prior to her being presented as a witness?

THE COURT: Yes, on Motion to Examine any witness in this case, this type of case, motion is overruled, yes. Let the record show the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski's motion for psychiatric examination of the State's witness, as follows, H.I. is overruled. Bring in the jury.

MR. BOWMAN: The defendant Coy Hubbard moves the court to strike State's Exhibit No. 25 for the reason that it violates the defendant's constitutional rights as guaranteed in the 4th, 5th 6th and 14th amendments to the United States Constitution, especially the right to due process of law. His right to counsel, basing it on the constitution of the State of Indiana with respect to right to counsel and due process of law and we request the court to consider ruling on Motion to Strike all of the evidence elicited from the witness Campbell during direct and cross examination, as well as that evidence presented in the hearing in the absence of the jury.

THE COURT: Overruled. Any other motions? Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Have you been sworn?
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