Jenny Fay Likens - Sister of Deceased

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Jenny Fay Likens - Sister of Deceased

Postby admin » October 31st, 2010, 6:40 pm

WITNESS SWORN BY THE COURT.

JENNY FAY LIKENS , a witness called on behalf of the State of Indiana,
being duly sworn by the Court, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MISS MARJORIE WESSNER,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. Tell the court and the Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury your name, please.

A. Jenny Fay Likens.

Q. How old are you Jenny?

A. I am sixteen years old.

Q. Where were you born?

A. Indianapolis.

Q. When?

A. 1950.

Q. What are your parents names?

A. Mr. Lester Likens and Mrs. Betty Likens.

Q. Do you have any brothers and sisters, Jenny?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What are their names and ages?

A. Danny Likens is nineteen and Diane Shoemaker is nineteen. Benny Likens is sixteen.

Q. You are a twin to Benny?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. And were you a sister to Sylvia Marie Likens?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. When was she born?

A. January 3, 1949.

Q. Have you lived in Indiana all your life, Jenny?

A. Well, I lived in Indianapolis and Lebanon.

Q. State of Indiana?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you have any physical handicap?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What is that?

A. Well, I had polio in the left leg.

Q. When did you suffer this polio?

A. I got it when I was four months old.

Q. And how far did you go in school?

A. Well, I don't know. I was in the hospital and have been out a little while.

Q. How many times have you been in the hospital?

A. I can't say exactly, about six or seven times.

Q. What is this due to, the condition of your leg?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Have you had any operations on it?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And when you started in the first grade, how old were you?

A. Six.

Q. And did you go straight through grade school?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you graduate from grade school?

A. No, I did not.

Q. How far did you go?

A. Just to the 8th.

Q. You had not completed the 8th grade, is that correct?

A. Well, I guess you would say that.

Q. Did you finish the 8th grade?

A. Yes, I went through it, all through the 8th.

Q. Alright, did you - how many operations have you had on your leg, if any?

A. Approximately six or seven.

Q. When was the last one?

A. When I was thirteen.

Q. Did you miss school because of this?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Have you lived with Sylvia and your family most of your life?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Did you - you said you lived in Indianapolis and Lebanon. When did you leave Indianapolis, do you remember?

A. You mean to go to California?

Q. Did you go to California one time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When was that?

A. In February.

Q. What year?

A. 1965.

Q. How long did you stay there?

A. Approximately three of four months.

Q. And when did you live in Lebanon?

A. Well, I don't know, I lived there so long I can't tell.

Q. What grade were you in when you lived in Lebanon?

A. 8th and I think 6th or 7th.

Q. Did you spend much time with Sylvia?

A. Yes, I did, a whole lot of time.

Q. Were you very close to her?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. What sort of things did Sylvia like to do?

A. She liked to dance and skate - I don't know, just have fun, I guess.

Q. Did you do these things with her?

A. What I could do.

Q. Were there some things Sylvia was able to do that you could not?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you go with her?

A. Most of the time.

Q. What sort of things?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did Sylvia go to church?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. How often did she go to church?

A. I can't tell you that, pretty often.

Q. Did she go to Sunday School?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you go with her?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Sylvia ever have any serious illness in her life?

A. Not that I know of, just her front tooth is all.

Q. What is this about her front tooth?

A. She was seven years old and my brother Danny - she had a grocery sack in her hand - he ran into her.

Q. How old was she then?

A. Seven.

Q. When you were out in California, did you and Sylvia go to school out there?

A. Me and my brother did. I can't say, I don't think Sylvia went to school.

Q. Did you go to church out there?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you go together?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you there on Easter, 1965?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you and Sylvia have your picture taken last year, 1965?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. When was this taken?

A. Easter at church.

Q. 1965?

A. 1965.

Q. And did you have someone else with you in that picture?

A. Yes, we had three of our girl friends.

Q. Was this taken in California?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Did you have that picture?

A. I have it in my pocketbook.

Q. I hand you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 26 and ask you what is, Jenny?

A. That is the picture of Sylvia and me and our girl friends.

Q. Is this picture the one about which you just testified?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Is it a true and accurate reproduction of Sylvia and yourself and the girls, as yourself have testified?

A. Yes.

MISS WESSNER: The State offers in evidence State's Exhibit No. 26.

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is irrelevant and cumulative.

MR. NEDEFF: Same objection, Your Honor, the defendant Richard Hobbs also assigns cumulative, redundant, not material or relevant.

MR. RICE: We object on the ground it is immaterial and irrelevant.

MR. BOWMAN: Same objection, Your Honor, is is burdening the record.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you leave California, Jenny?

A. I reckon it was around May, I can't say for sure.

Q. 1965?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you go then, from California.

A. We went to my grandmother Martin's in Lebanon.

Q. And how long did you stay there?

A. Oh, not too long, my father and mother had a separation.

Q. Where did you go from there?

A. My mother and Sylvia and me got an apartment at 109 Euclid Street.

Q. That is in Indianapolis?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you stay there?

A. Oh, about - around three of four weeks, maybe.

Q. When did you leave there, if you did?

A. In July.

Q. And where did you go from there?

A. To Gertrude's.

Q. Who do you mean by Gertrude?

A. Gertrude Baniszewski.

Q. Is she present?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Point her out, please.

A. She is sitting right there on the corner. She has on a white sweater and white blouse.

Q. The woman sitting behind Mr. Erbecker?

A. Yes, with her hand to her mouth. (indicating defendant Gertrude Baniszewski)

Q. Where did she live then?

A. 3850 East New York Street.

Q. That is Indianapolis, Marion County, Indiana?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. When did you go there?

A. July 4 or 5.

Q. 1965?

A. 1965.

Q. And who did you go with?

A. Sylvia was with me.

Q. And why did you go there?

A. Well, we was walking down New York Street and my girl friend called us down there and she introduced us to Gertrude.

Q. What did you do when you went to Gertrude's?

A. Just talked. She offered me supper and I said not unless Sylvia would eat and she offered her supper and we ate and stayed all night.

Q. What happened the next - what happened next, if anything?

A. My Dad came at 11:30 or 12:00 o'clock and he did not want to go way back to Lebanon and he asked if he could sleep on the chair and she alright and Danny slept on the couch.

Q. Was your brother Danny with him?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did they stay?

A. They stayed over night and the next day and my father - I can't say where he went, anyway he went to the apartment and got our clothes.

Q. At this time about which you have testified, was there any conversation between Mrs. Baniszewski and your father?

A. Yes, there was.

Q. And when did this take place?

A. July 5, I am pretty sure.

Q. Who else was present, if anyone?

A. Sylvia and me and her kids.

Q. Who do you mean by her kids?

A. Gertrude's kids.

Q. Name who was present, please.

A. I think Paula and I don't know - she had a lot of little kids around the house, I could not tell you.

Q. Are you referring to Paula Marie Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. Is she present?

A. Yes.

Q. Point her out.

A. With the blue checkered blouse and the brown sweater. (indicating defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski)

Q. Sitting behind Mr. George Rice, the attorney?

A. Yes, she is.

Q. What was this conversation you heard?

A. My father was talking about -

MR. BOWMAN: We object, Your Honor, it is hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained as to defendants Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski. The Jury will ignore the testimony as to this question and answer thereto in arriving at a verdict as to defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard. She may answer to the other defendants.

A. My father was talking about somewhere for us girls to stay and Gertrude told him she would take care of us.

Q. What else did she say, if anything?

A. She said she would treat us like her own children, take care of us and Daddy thought it was a good idea since she had a lot of children.

Q. How many children did she have?

A. John was not living with her at the time. He was living with his father.

Q. Who do you mean by John?

A. The boy in the white sweater. (indicating defendant John Stephan Baniszewski)

Q. You mean John Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. Sitting behind the attorney, Mr. Bowman?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. And what were the other children's names?

A. Stephanie Baniszewski and -

Q. How old is Stephanie, if you know?

A. Fifteen. Paula Marie Baniszewski. Then she had little children - Shirley.

Q. How old is Shirley, if you know?

A. Ten, and Jimmy was eight.

Q. Anyone else?

A. She had a baby around a year, Denny Wright.

Q. Anyone else?

A. Marie Baniszewski.

Q. How old is she?

A. Eleven.

Q. Was there anything else said at this time, Jenny?

A. No, my father said, "I will get down, get their clothes after I have discussed it with my wife".

Q. Did he bring your clothes down?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. When did he bring them?

A. The next day, July 6, 1965, something like that.

Q. Was there a conversation at this time?

A. I think Daddy said he would go get my Mom, go bring her over and introduce her.

Q. Did your mother come?

A. Yes, he came with my mother. I think she was at her mother's.

Q. Was there a conversation when you mother came?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was present at that conversation?

A. I was there and Sylvia and I don't know how many of the kids was there, Gertrude and I can't tell you how many kids.

Q. What was said in the conversation?

A. I don't know. My mother and Gertrude got acquainted and Mommie thought, well, if you will take good care of them I will let them stay. She thought it would be alright.

Q. When you went there, how long were you to stay? Was there a conversation concerning this?

A. My Daddy said he would be on the fairs a couple of months, something like that.

Q. What was to happen at the end of a couple of months or so?

A. We was supposed to go back with them.

Q. Were any arrangements made to pay for your and Sylvia's support while you were there?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there any conversation?

A. My father told her he would give her $20.00 a week for both of us.

Q. Did he give her any money at that time?

A. I can't think if he gave her money order or cash. I think it was cash.

Q. Where did your parents go them, if you know, Jenny?

A. I don't know where they went.

Q. Were they working?

A. They was on the fairs.

Q. Did they leave town?

A. No, I think they stayed in Indianapolis, I don't know for sure.

Q. Did they come back to visit you then?

A. About a week or week and a half later.

Q. During the time you lived and Sylvia lived at Mrs. Baniszewski's, how often did your parents come to visit you?

A. Approximately eight or ten times.

Q. And did you see your father give Mrs. Baniszewski any money when he came?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How many occasions?

A. I'd say about six or seven times.

Q. Do you know how much?

A. I know he handed her - support was $20.00 a week. I could not tell you if it was $40.00 or not. I did not look at the money.

Q. Did your father give you or Sylvia any money while you were there?

A. Sylvia told Daddy she needed a pair of new shoes. He started to hand her $3.00 and someone spoke up and said $2.00 was enough and Daddy - they said Daddy left $2.00. She never seen the $2.00.

Q. Did Sylvia get the shoes?

A. No.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski give her $2.00?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Did your parents bring you clothing any other time?

A. Yes, they brought some clothes down October 5, the last time they were down there.

Q. The last time your folks came to visit you at Mrs. Baniszewski's?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. How many rooms were there in the house at 3850 East New York Street?

A. Is this counting the basement.

Q. Well, just tell the court and jury how many rooms were on the first floor and second floor, if there was one, and also the basement?

A. Three bedrooms upstairs and a bath and there was three rooms downstairs, the kitchen, dining room and living room.

Q. Was there also a basement?

A. Yes, there was.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski have any dogs?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. How many?

A. She had a pup, a little puppy and her father - the kids father brought over a police dog.

Q. What were the sleeping arrangements in the house, Jenny?

A. You mean when we first started staying there?

Q. Yes.

A. Upstairs in the bedroom was a mattress. Me and Sylvia slept on it.

Q. Was there a bed?

A. Yes.

Q. Who slept on it?

A. Marie, Paula and Stephanie.

Q. In the other room?

A. Gertrude and Paula.

Q. Where did the others sleep then?

A. Jimmy, he had a bed I imagine - I guess - I think he had a bed and slept by himself till his brother Johnny came.

Q. Did you all sleep upstairs at first?

A. Yes, at first we did.

Q. Now, when you first went to Mrs. Baniszewski's house, did she tell you her name?

A. She said it was Gertrude Wright.

Q. Did she say anything about her husband?

A. She said something about him being in Germany.

Q. Did she say who the father of Dennis was?

A. She said Denny Wright.

Q. In other words, the baby was Dennis Jr., is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you and Sylvia get along together?

A. We was real close together.

Q. Are you familiar with the type of language Sylvia used?

A. Really there was not much language she did use, I mean out of the way.

Q. Did you ever hear her swear?

A. I could not - I did not hardly hear her swear at all.

Q. Did you hear her use bad language, vulgar language?

A. When she did it seemed kind of strange because I was not used to hearing her say anything like that.

Q. When you first went to Mrs. Baniszewski's house, how did she treat you?

A. The first week and a half it as pretty nice. In two weeks it was getting pretty rough.

Q. The first week and half you were there did you have meals regularly?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. Did Sylvia eat meals with you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have - how many meals a day did you have?

A. Well, sometimes we had two and sometimes three.

Q. What did you and Sylvia do during the day when you first went there?

A. Well, they had a stereo and we listened to records and cleaned the place and most of the time we would go to the park.

Q. What park would you go to?

A. Brookside or Ellenberger.

Q. When you would go to the park, how long would you stay?

A. From morning till evening, about 5:00 or 6:00 o'clock.

Q. Where did you have lunch when you would go to the park?

A. We did not have lunch. We would have two pieces of toast for breakfast and come home and have supper.

Q. What would you have?

A. Usually soup or crackers.

Q. Did you have money to buy lunch?

A. No, I did not, I tried to make some.

Q. What did you do to try and make money, earn money?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is immaterial.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did Sylvia work?

A. She worked - do you mean around the house or a job?

Q. Did she work around the house?

A. Yes, she cleaned up the bedroom at Gertrude's and helped with the dishes and things like that.

Q. Did she do what Gertrude asked her to?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she work outside the home?

A. No.

Q. Why did you go to the park all day?

A. Well, I guess she - I don't know, she said all us kids were getting on her nerves, something like that.

Q. Did you go to school and did Sylvia go to school when you lived with Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you start in school?

A. In September.

Q. What school did you go to?

A. 78 at Sherman Drive.

Q. What grade were you in?

A. 8.

Q. What school did Sylvia go to?

A. Tech High School.

Q. What year was she in?

A. I think she was in the 9th grade.

Q. Did Sylvia own a Bible?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Did she read the Bible much?

A. Yes, she would be up in the bedroom and sit by the window and read the Bible. If she was called downstairs, she would put it under her clothes and go downstairs.

Q. Why would she put it under her clothes?

A. I guess she did not want -

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. The answer will go out.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski's treatment or you change after you went there?

A. I don't understand.

Q. You said when you first went to Mrs. Baniszewski's she treated you good?

A. That is right.

Q. Did this change?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. About when?

A. Approximately two weeks or a week and a half.

Q. What was the first thing you remember, Jenny, you say about two weeks afterwards, that happened?

A. Well, I don't know, she called us a name.

Q. What name?

A. Like - I don't like to swear. She called us a - I better say it - a bitch, I guess.

Q. She called Sylvia this?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was present when this happened?

A. Well, she took us upstairs and she slapped me and said "I took care of you two bitches two weeks for nothing". I imagine the money order came. The next day Daddy came and she said she did not get any money and the next day it did.

Q. Did she slap Sylvia at this time?

A. I don't know, she took her in another room.

Q. Was Sylvia clean about herself, Jenny?

A. Yes, she was?

Q. Did she take care of her own clothes?

A. Yes, she washed and ironed her clothes all the time.

Q. Where did Mrs. Baniszewski do her laundry?

A. She took it to the laundromat.

Q. Did Sylvia take her clothes to the laundromat?

A. No.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski take them?

A. No, if it was, it was just a few pieces.

Q. How did Sylvia do her laundry?

A. She had to do it, wear it like she had it.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski ever tell her she could not take it to the laundromat?

A. Sylvia wanted to wash it out by hand. She kept asking her, she said she could and then would not let her.

Q. What about the other children's clothes in the house? Did they go to the laundromat?

A. Yes.

Q. What about Sylvia?

A. She said a few pieces went to the laundromat. I imagine she took a skirt or blouse and skirt or dress for school and get it washed and Sylvia ironed it.

Q. How did Sylvia take care of her hair?

A. She always brushed it out and kept it real nice.

Q. Did she shampoo it real nice?

A. There was not any shampoo for her to use.

Q. How often would she wash it?

A. As often as she could, I guess.

Q. Did anyone else ever shampoo their hair?

A. Yes, they shampooed their hair a lot.

Q. Did anyone else work with Sylvia's hair?

A. No.

Q. Do you recall anything about putting water on Sylvia's hair?

A. You don't mean hot water?

Q. Did they use hot water on her?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It is leading.

Q. Do you remember anything, Jenny, that happened concerning water and Sylvia's hair?

A. Yes, they turned on hot water.

Q. When was that?

MR. BOWMAN: We object unless the time and place are established. And who is they?

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. When was this Jenny?

A. Let's see, this was a little later, back about the last two weeks in October.

Q. October, and who was present?

A. Gertrude, Paula - and us other kids was at school. We came home and her hair was all wet. I asked her how it got wet.

Q. Who was there when you asked her this?

A. Gertrude and Paula. The other kids had not come home when that was said.

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard. The jury will ignore the question and answer in arriving at a verdict in this cause as to Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

Q. Who was there?

A. When I asked her about her hair being wet?

Q. Yes.

A. Gertrude, Paula, and I don't know who else, and me.

Q. Sylvia?

A. Sylvia was standing in kitchen.

Q. What was said?

A. I don't know, something about hot water. I guess she said they put her head under the faucet.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The answer will go out and the jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. Did anything happen any other time concerning Sylvia's hair?

A. One time I came home from school.

Q. When was this, Jenny?

A. Well, it was in September or August. I can't tell you right now. Anyway she was sitting there.

Q. Who else was there?

A. Gertrude and Paula and me. I can't remember if anybody else was there.

Q. What was said or done?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to defendants Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

A. I asked Gertrude what was wrong, you know, and she said Sylvia met Danny and she said Sylvia had mustard around her mouth.

Q. Who was Danny?

A. My brother. Sylvia tried to tell her she did not but she said she did. I don't know whether she did or not. Paula took her by the hair of her head and threw her on the floor off the chair.

Q. What else was done or said at this time?

A. I don't know. She kept slapping her till she made her say what she had done.

Q. How many times did she slap her?

A. That is a big question. I'd say about five or six, I can't tell you.

Q. Who was doing the slapping, now?

A. Gertrude.

Q. You say Paula pulled her off the chair by her hair and did Sylvia fall on the floor?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Did she strike her head on the floor?

A. No, I don't think so, I think she fell.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. She got back up.

Q. Did she say anything?

A. I think she said "I did not, I was not with Danny" or something like that.

Q. What did Gertrude say then?

A. She said - I don't know, I can't remember. I guess she said "What is that mustard doing around your month, I smell hamburger on your breath".

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The jury will ignore the last answer in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. Did you see any mustard or ketchup on Sylvia's face?

A. I tried to see it but I could not.

Q. Did you smell hamburgers?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Then what was said?

A. I don't know. We just ate supper.

Q. Did Sylvia eat supper?

A. I can't even remember what we had for supper right now.

Q. Did Sylvia eat with you?

A. Not at the table. I think she set in a chair.

Q. Did Sylvia eat at the table with you when you had meals?

A. Not all the time.

Q. When you first went there, did she?

A. Yes.

Q. Did this change?

A. Yes.

Q. In what way?

A. I don't know. They kept saying she was not clean and they did not want her to eat at the table.

Q. Did she never eat at the table again then?

MR. BOWMAN: We object. That is leading, I think.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did Sylvia eat the same food that you did?

A. Yes, until, you know, it got worse and worse.

Q. When did it get worse?

A. I mean they give her black eyes.

MR. BOWMAN: We object to this. We have no designation when, what and who.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to all defendants.

MR. BOWMAN: We move to strike the answer.

THE COURT: The answer will go out. The jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict in the case as to all defendants.

Q. When, Jenny, did this happen?

A. Let's say it was in September.

Q. Who was present?

A. Gertrude and Paula. They was always at home and me and Sylvia and the little kids, Jimmie, Shirley and Marie.

Q. What happened then?

A. I don't know - I mean what time do you mean?

Q. You mentioned a black eye.

A. Yes.

Q. Alright, is this the time you are talking about?

A. You mean -

Q. What happened?

A. I was talking about a hamburger, was I -

Q. Is this the time there was a black eye?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell the Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and the court what happened?

A. I don't know - they kept hitting her in the eye and then said she had a shiner.

Q. Who hit her?

A. Gertrude kept hitting her till her eye got black and blue.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Just set there?

Q. What happened then?

A. I don't know if this is the time when I went down to the Festival at school, something like that.

Q. When did that happen?

A. Oh, it was, I imagine it was, let's see, September.

Q. Had school started?

A. Yes, school had started.

Q. What school?

A. 78.

Q. School No. 78, that is where you went?

A. Yes.

Q. And what happened at School No. 78

A. Well, Gertrude gave me a quarter and told me to go to school, they was having rides and everything down there. I went on a ride and got popcorn and stuff like that. I came back with a sucker and was teasing Marie.

Q. What was said?

A. Gertrude said, "Don't you wish you had one, Sylvia"?

Q. After her treatment of you changed, did Sylvia have the same food as the rest of you children?

A. Not as much.

Q. Can you remember something that you can tell the jury, Jenny?

MR. BOWMAN: We object to that, Your Honor, as being too vague.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Something that you remember concerning Sylvia eating?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to all defendants.

Q. When did she not have as much food, Jenny?

MR. BOWMAN: We object. It assumes a fact not in evidence.

MR. NEW: We would like to be heard. She testified there was not as much food.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen, retire to the jury room for five or ten minutes. During the recess, don't take among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form any opinion on this case till it is finally submitted to you. Jury and Alternate Jurors are excused.

JURY EXCUSED.

THE COURT: The jury is out of the hearing.

MR. NEW: I have the question written out?

THE COURT: Have you read the indictment first? Now read the question.

MR. NEW: "When did she not have as much food"?

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Want to tell me where I am wrong?

MR. NEW: I think the testimony of the pathologist was that malnutrition was partial cause of death. I think we are entitled to established when it was she was restricted on food. It would certainly go to intent and motive. The question was "When". I think it is very relevant when they shut her off on food. It would tie in with other evidence. This is our point. I did not notice a stated reason for the objection.

THE COURT: The ruling perhaps was faster. I imagine the reason was it was immaterial and irrelevant. What is your reason, Mr. Bowman?

MR. BOWMAN: Your Honor, I probably have got a dozen. It is outside the scope of the issues formed by the indictment. It contradicts prior testimony by other witnesses. It is vague, indefinite and there is no showing as to whom it applies to.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. We will take a five minute recess.

RECESS.

THE COURT: The ruling will stay the same. While the jury is out, so we won't have to take the matter up again, how about the Motion to Inspect the Premises. Have you all had an opportunity to check the premises?

MR. NEDEFF: Richard Hobbs consents.

MR. RICE: We consent.

MR. BOWMAN: We consent.

MR. ERBECKER: Gertrude Baniszewski is moving.

THE COURT: Did the State have an opportunity?

MR. NEW: We did. We would like to suggest this - the jury go this evening. The door is open and there is always the possibility of vandalism.

THE COURT: What time is this evening?

MR. NEW: I think as soon as court is adjourned. We have made available two lanterns because of the basement being somewhat precarious. They are better than a flashlight. I think we want the maximum of lighting.

THE COURT: Sheriff, when your help comes, see if the sheriff can supply me with a bus to take these people out to 3850 East New York and to take the people there with no conversation whatsoever, but I would like to have the deputy sheriffs carry the coleman lamps. I hope you have some experienced fellow - campers who know how. We will adjourn at 4:30 today so as to give them enough daylight. See if they can have the bus here to take them there at 4:30, perhaps on the Market Street side so the jury can get it. I will instruct the bailiff who is going with them and see if they won't let you be one of the sheriffs to go. Maybe a couple of the sheriffs here - maybe somebody will give you the coleman lamps they have and see who over there knows how to work them. Ready for the jury?

MR. NEDEFF: Richard Hobbs is.

MR. RICE: Yes.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

Q. Jenny, going back to the time that Paula pulled Sylvia off the chair by the hair, what else happened at that time, if anything?

MR. ERBECKER: We object to rehashing this, Your Honor. The piecemeal question only has one purpose - to harangue the story, string it out.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I don't know what you mean - what she did it for?

Q. Were you eating dinner at the time?

A. Well, I know we had hot dogs for supper.

Q. What happened then?

A. Well, Gertrude and Paula and Randy Lepper was all eating hot dogs and they took part of a bun and a little bit of hot dog and kept putting things in it - I could not say what it was - and made Sylvia eat it.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. They kept making her eat it till she got sick at her stomach.

Q. Did she vomit?

A. Yes.

Q. More than one time?

A. Twice.

Q. Did you ever, any other time, see Sylvia at Mrs. Baniszewski's eat something that was not food?

THE COURT: Yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. When did this happen?

A. About the last week before she died.

Q. And was this at Mrs. Baniszewski's house?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was present?

A. You mean when they made her eat - are you talking about something else?

MR. BOWMAN: We object and move that to be stricken.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BOWMAN: We ask the jury be instructed not to consider the evidence for the reason it is rather vague - a vague pronoun has been used. We don't know who she is referring to or when.

THE COURT: The question is who was present.

A. When they made her eat the hot dog?

Q. No, was there another time - was there any other time you saw Sylvia eat something other than food?

A. Well, Sylvia was down in the basement.

Q. When did this happen?

A. I say about four or five days before she died.

Q. Who was there then?

A. Gertrude and me and Sylvia.

Q. And then what happened?

A. Gertrude went over to the sack in the basement and picked up a pamper and made her eat human waste.

Q. What - was this a diaper of the baby you refer to as a pamper?

A. Yes.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. I seen her eating it. I guess that is what it was.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Was there any other time you saw her eat something other than food?

A. I saw her drink something.

Q. When was this?

A. Maybe a day or two after she made her eat that other.

Q. Where did this happen?

A. Up in the kitchen.

Q. Who was present?

A. Yes, Gertie, Paula Marie, Shirley and John.

Q. What was said then?

A. Gertrude asked Sylvia if she wanted a drink of water, and she said "yes" so Sylvia had her own separate cup so Marie went down in the basement and brought up a cup of urine and made Sylvia drink it, she made Sylvia drink it.

Q. Who made her drink it?

A. Gertrude.

Q. You said she had her own separate cup. Did she have a separate bowl too?

A. Yes, she had her own certain bowl and cup too.

Q. Do you know why that was?

A. They did not want to eat after her or something.

Q. Did you ever hear Mrs. Baniszewski say why?

A. I did not hear her say why. I guess the reason was -

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did she drink water whenever she wanted to, do you know?

A. No.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you see Sylvia drink water?

A. I could not say very often.

Q. Do you recall if there was a conversation concerning Sylvia's drinking water?

A. Gertrude took some water out of the faucet, a half cup, and said "Let that last the rest of the day" but Sylvia went ahead and drink it all.

Q. When was this?

A. I'd say about four days before she died.

Q. Do you recall any other time seeing Sylvia eat something that was not food?

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Not that I can remember.

Q. Did Sylvia eat every meal with you?

A. Not every meal.

Q. Do you recall a time when she did not eat with you?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell when this was?

A. Approximately three to four days before she died.

Q. Who was present then?

A. Me, Paula, John, Shirley, Marie and Jimmy.

Q. What was said then, if anything?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is not covered by this indictment.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. They gave Sylvia a little soup in a bowl and told her to eat it with her fingers and they gave her approximately - I can't tell you how much time to eat it in.

Q. Who said this?

A. John said to start eating with your fingers.

Q. Did she have a spoon to eat it with?

A. No.

Q. Did the rest of you have a spoon?

A. Well, I don't know, it was sort of like one would use the spoon and wash it off. There were not too many spoons around the house.

Q. Did Sylvia eat the soup with her fingers?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the rest of you drink your soup?

A. No, you see they shared their spoons. One would get through using it and would wash it off.

Q. Did Sylvia eat all her soup?

A. No, they did not give her that much time.

Q. Did they take it away from her?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever hear Mrs. Baniszewski say what Sylvia could eat?

A. Crackers and water.

Q. When did she say that?

A. When she said she was going to stay in the basement and get crackers and water.

Q. When was this, Jenny?

A. About a week or a week and half before she died.

Q. Did she get any crackers and water?

A. She got some some crackers. I can't recall the water.

Q. Did she get any other food, to your knowledge, during this week?

A. They gave her some pears.

Q. Pears - anything else?

A. Not that I know.

Q. She did not eat any meals with the rest of you during this week?

A. No.

Q. You said Sylvia slept in the basement. When did she start sleeping in the basement?

A. I'd say it was about the 10th or 11th or October.

Q. Was there a bed down there?

A. No.

Q. What was in the basement?

A. Clothes and rags were down there.

Q. How long had these clothes or rags been down there, to your knowledge?

A. They was down there for a good while. Somebody put them on the floor and Gertrude kicked them aside and said she was going to sleep on the cement.

Q. Did Sylvia sleep on the cement?

A. Yes, she had to.

Q. Did any of the dogs sleep in the basement?

A. Yes.

Q. Which one?

A. They had a little pup.

Q. How many nights did Sylvia sleep on the basement floor?

A. Six or seven nights.

Q. Did you ever know whether or not Sylvia urinated in the bed?

A. One time.

Q. When was this?

A. About three or four days before she died. I can't think - Stephanie or Coy -

Q. Who do you mean by Coy, Jenny?

A. Coy Hubbard.

Q. Is he here?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. Point him out, please.

A. The boy in the suit and light shirt and tie on the end. (indicating defendant Coy Hubbard)

Q. Sitting behind Mr. Bowman?

A. Yes.

Q. Was he present at this time you are testifying about?

A. When they tied her up?

Q. Did someone tie her up?

A. Yes.

Q. Who tied her up?

A. Coy Hubbard tied her up and Sylvia wet the bed.

Q. When she was tied up who else was present, if anyone?

A. Stephanie was standing in the hall.

Q. Where did this take place?

A. Up in the bedroom.

Q. What did he use to tie her up with?

A. A rope.

Q. How did he tie her?

A. He tied her hands and tied her feet, I don't know how.

Q. Was this in the daytime?

A. Night.

Q. Then what happened?

A. They all went downstairs and Sylvia whispered to me and said "Jenny, Jenny" and asked me to get her a drink of water.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It was a volunteered statement. The jury will ignore that statement.

Q. What did you do then, Jenny?

A. I got up and got her a drink of water.

Q. What happened?

A. Sylvia laid back down and turned over.

Q. Is that the night Sylvia urinated?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she stay tied up all night?

A. Yes.

Q. Did someone untie her in the morning?

A. I think Stephanie did.

Q. Was this when everyone got up in the morning?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Sylvia lose any weight while you were living with Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. How much, if you know?

A. I say ten to fifteen pounds.

Q. Did you ever hear Mrs. Baniszewski say she was going to take Sylvia anyplace?

A. Yes, she said she was going to blindfold her and dump her, take her to Jimmy's Forest, two miles out.

Q. Jimmy's Forest?

A. Yes.

Q. When did this conversation take place?

A. About the night before she died.

Q. Who was present?

A. Me, Sylvia and Johnny and Gertrude and Shirley. I think that is all.

Q. What was said then, Jenny?

A. Well, I had nightclothes on and Gertrude told me to go upstairs and get dressed, she said me and Johnny were going to go dump Sylvia.

Q. What else was said, if anything?

A. I came back downstairs and went over by the door and she got by the porch and Gertrude dragged her back. She took her by the arm and dragged her onto the floor.

Q. How far did she drag her?

A. Across the floor and she just told her she was not going anywhere.

Q. Tell what happened, if anything?

A. Well, Sylvia sat at the table and Gertrude tried to get her to eat two pieces of toast and she said she could not swallow.

Q. Who was present at this situation?

A. Me and Sylvia and Gertrude. Paula was in bed. Johnny was downstairs in the kitchen. Sylvia could not swallow. Gertrude took a curtain rod and kept hitting her across the face with it.

Q. Jenny, I will hand you what is marked for identification purposes as State's Exhibit No. 12 and ask you what that is?

A. That is the curtain rod she beat Sylvia with.

Q. The curtain rod about which you have just testified?

A. Yes.

MISS WESSNER: The State offers in evidence State's Exhibit No. 12.

MR. ERBECKER: No objection.

MR. NEDEFF: No objection.

MR. RICE: No objection.

MR. BOWMAN: May I see it?

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. BOWMAN: No objection.

THE COURT: Show Exhibit No. 12 in evidence.

MISS WESSNER: The State requests permission to pass it to the jury.

THE COURT: And shown to the jury.

WHEREUPON STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 12 (being a piece of curtain rod) WAS ADMITTED IN EVIDENCE,
SHOWN TO THE JURY, AND MADE A PART OF THIS RECORD AS FOLLOWS, TO-WIT:

STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 12 FILED SEPARATELY.

THE COURT: Next question, please.

Q. Do you know Richard Hobbs, Jenny?

A. Yes, I knew him when we were living at 3838.

Q. Did you ever see him at Gertrude's, at 3850 East New York Street?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How often?

A. On Saturdays and after school most of the time.

Q. Is he present?

A. Yes.

Q. Point him out, please.

A. He is the boy with the dark glasses, light shirt and tie and he has a sport jacket on. (indicating defendant Richard Hobbs)

Q. Sitting behind Mr. Nedeff?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know where Richard Hobbs lived at this time?

A. 310 North Denny.

Q. How far is that from Mrs. Baniszewski's?

A. Two doors down.

Q. Two doors down?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see Richard Hobbs do anything to Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. When, Jenny?

A. That was the time that he put that on Sylvia's stomach.

Q. When did this happen?

A. Three or fours days before she died.

Q. And were you present in the house at this time?

A. I was in the kitchen.

Q. Who else was there?

A. Gertrude and Richard and me and Sylvia and Shirley and Jimmy and John and Gertrude took the needle and started it and said she was getting sick so she gave it to Ricky.

Q. What did she do with the needle?

A. Made the figure I.

Q. Where did she put the figure I?

A. On Sylvia's stomach.

Q. Was Sylvia dressed?

A. Now she was not.

Q. Did she undress while you were there?

A. Sylvia - she did not have anything on when I was there.

Q. Did you see her - anyone tell her to take her clothes off?

A. Well, Gertrude would not let her wear any clothes. She did not have any on partly all the time.

Q. On this particular day, what did she have on - anything at all?

A. When she put that on her stomach she had nothing on.

Q. This was in the kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the first thing that was done?

A. Gertrude said "she is a prostitute and she is proud of it and they would put it on her stomach so everybody would know it".

Q. What kind of needle did she use?

A. A sewing needle.

Q. Did she heat the needle?

A. Yes.

Q. How was it done?

A. With matches.

Q. Who struck the matches?

A. Shirley Baniszewski.

Q. Who heated the needle?

A. Well, they would hold the needle up the match.

Q. Who did?

A. Gertrude and Ricky.

Q. You say Gertrude started it?

A. Yes.

Q. How much did she write?

A. She just started on the "I" and then said she was getting sick.

Q. What did she do?

A. She said, "Here, Ricky, you take over".

Q. What did he do?

A. He took over.

Q. Is Ricky Richard Hobbs?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he do?

A. He started putting them on there and they sent me to the grocery store to get bread.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Shake her head and grit her teeth.

Q. How long were you gone?

A. Ten or fifteen minutes.

Q. When you returned what part of the house did you go to?

A. The kitchen.

Q. Was anyone in the kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. What was happening?

A. Sylvia was standing by the basement door and Ricky was still down putting it on her stomach and Gertrude was sitting at the table and Paula and I think John was in the kitchen and Shirley and Marie.

Q. And what was said at this time, if anything?

A. I think Randy Lepper knocked on the door so Gertrude said "Take her to the basement" and they rushed her to the basement.

Q. Who went to the basement with her?

A. Ricky and me and I can't think whether Shirley or Marie went.

Q. What happened in the basement, if anything?

A. Ricky took an iron poker and Shirley or Marie took a piece of paper - first she started striking matches to heat the poker but it did not get hot enough. Then she lit a paper in the furnace to heat the poker.

Q. Jenny, I will hand you what has been marked State's Exhibit No. 11 for identification purposes and ask you if you have seen that before?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Is this the poker about which you have just testified?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. What did they do with the poker, Jenny?

A. Branded the figure 3 on Sylvia's stomach - anyway I don't know - it was close to her chest, I guess.

MISS WESSNER: The State offers State's Exhibit No. 11 in evidence.

MR. ERBECKER: No objection.

MR. NEDEFF: No objection.

MR. RICE: No objection.

MR. BOWMAN: May I ask a preliminary question?

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

MR. BOWMAN: Miss Likens, how do you know that is the same one?

MR. NEW: We object. That is cross examination.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

A. Cause I seen -

THE COURT: Don't answer the question.

MR. BOWMAN: No objections.

THE COURT: Show Exhibit No. 11 in evidence.

WHEREUPON STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 11 (being an iron poker) WAS ADMITTED IN EVIDENCE,
AND MADE A PART OF THIS RECORD AS FOLLOWS, TO-WIT:

STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 11 FILED SEPARATELY.

Q. What part of the poker did they use on Sylvia's stomach?

A. This part right here.

Q. Describe it.

A. I don't know. They would hold it up to her. They were trying to make an S on her and it turned out to be a 3.

MISS WESSNER: The State requests permission to pass State's Exhibit No. 11, to the jury.

THE COURT: Let the record show Exhibit No. 11 shown to the jury.

WHEREUPON STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 11 WAS PASSED TO THE JURY.

MR. RICE: At this time we would like to request the court to caution the prosecutor on the use of the word "they" as used, for example, in the introduction and use of this witness.

THE COURT: I can't caution but you can object.

MR. RICE: I object.

THE COURT: There is no question before the witness now.

MR. RICE: I think it is highly prejudicial and very uncertain and generally I think it is the duty on the part of the prosecutor to indicate clearly who made use and when and where.

MR. NEW: We will do that.

THE COURT: Next question, please.

Q. This took place in the basement, Jenny?

A. Yes.

Q. Who held the poker?

A. Richard Hobbs.

Q. And how was it heated?

A. First they started a match.

Q. Who do you mean by "they"?

A. I can't remember, Shirley or Marie.

MR. RICE: I object to the use of Marie by this witness. It is the middle name of my client also.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Who is Marie?

A. Marie Baniszewski.

Q. You are not speaking of Paula Marie Baniszewski?

A. No.

THE COURT: The jury is admonished the word Marie as used by this witness is not to be used against defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski.

Q. Did you say Shirley and Marie heated the iron?

A. Yes.

Q. How did they heat it?

A. First Shirley or Marie started it with a match. They did not think it was hot enough. They took a piece of paper and heated it with the furnace first.

Q. What did they do with the paper then?

A. Threw it in the sink in the basement.

Q. How many times did they lay the poker on Sylvia's stomach?

A. All I seen them do was touch it an turn it over and touch it. I don't know how many times.

Q. What did Sylvia do, if anything?

A. She would have to.

Q. What did she do?

A. Just hold her teeth - I don't know.

Q. Was there a conversation then?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever hear Mrs. Baniszewski say anything about Sylvia dying?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is a leading question.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It is leading on a material point. The jury will ignore the question in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. What happened then, Jenny, if anything?

A. After they had brander her, you mean?

Q. Yes.

A. Gertie said to bring her upstairs and they brought her up to the kitchen and Gertie said, "Sylvia, what are you going to do now? You can't get married, can't undress before anybody. What are you going to do now"? Sylvia said, "There is nothing I can do, it is on there now".

Q. Was anything else used on her stomach other than the needle and the poker?

A. Not that I can remember.

Q. Did Gertrude say anything else?

A. I think she did, "You are proud of it, are you not Sylvia"?, and Sylvia said, "No".

Q. Anything else?

A. Not that I can remember.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia bite her lips, Jenny?

MR. ERBECKER: I am going to object to the leading and suggestive question.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you ever hear Mrs. Baniszewski say anything relative to Sylvia's going someplace?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is leading and suggestive.

MR. BOWMAN: It is suggesting an answer.

THE COURT: Overruled as to Gertrude Baniszewski. Sustained as to defendants Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski. It is hearsay as to them. The jury will ignore the question and answer which is forthcoming as to the defendants Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

A. You mean getting rid of her?

Q. Did she say that?

MR. ERBECKER: I am going to move the court to admonish the jury to disregard that statement.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Motion to admonish granted. The jury will ignore the last statement of the witness in arriving at a verdict.

Q. Did you ever hear Gertrude -

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I don't understand the question.

Q. Well, did you - let me rephrase it - what, if any, conversation with you hear Mrs. Baniszewski have with Sylvia concerning about Sylvia going away someplace?

MR. ERBECKER: That is leading and suggestive.

THE COURT: Overruled. Sustained as to Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

Q. You mean about getting her out of the house? Is that what you are trying to say?

MR. ERBECKER: We move the court to admonish the jury to disregard the statement of the witness.

THE COURT: Overruled. The witness does not understand the question.

Q. Say what Mrs. Baniszewski said, Jenny.

A. I know she said she was going to get rid of her.

Q. When did this conversation take place?

A. Oh, she would say that off and on.

Q. Did she say it more than once?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. Several times.

Q. Did she say this within the week before Sylvia's death?

MR. ERBECKER: We object, Your Honor, it is leading and suggestive.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Can you tell a particular time when she said this, Jenny?

A. Oh, about two or three days before she died, something like that.

Q. Where did this conversation take place?

A. Sometimes in the kitchen, most of the time in the kitchen.

Q. Who was present?

A. Gertrude, me and Sylvia and Paula and Stephanie and John. I don't know all of them.

Q. What was said, Jenny?

A. She said she was going to get rid of her, dump her out somewhere.

Q. Did Sylvia do anything about going?

A. Do anything about going?

Q. Yes.

A. No

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski ever get Sylvia's clothes ready to go?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is leading.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Is there another time you recall her saying this, Jenny?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I remember a time she said, "You two get your clothes down here" and Paula went across the street to call Juvenile.

Q. When did this conversation take place?

A. It was about three or four weeks before she died.

Q. What did you and Sylvia do then, if anything?

A. We got excited and got our clothes and thought were going to get out of there.

Q. What did you do with your clothes?

A. We folded them up and put them in boxes and took them downstairs, in the dining room.

Q. Then what happened?

A. They stayed there a day or so and she told us to get them back upstairs, the clothes.

Q. During the two weeks before Sylvia died, did you spend much time with her?

A. No, not too much.

Q. Why was this?

A. Well, we was not together - I mean she would keep us both apart.

Q. Who is she?

A. Gertrude.

Q. What did she do to keep you apart?

A. Sylvia would be in the basement most of the time.

Q. Did you go down in the basement?

A. Once in a while.

Q. Did you see Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Sylvia ever go out of the house during these two weeks?

A. Well, one night three or four days before she died, Gertrude told me to go upstairs. I went upstairs. She said Johnny took her to an alley or something.

MR. ERBECKER: We object and move to strike that as hearsay..

THE COURT: Objection sustained to the entire answer.

Q. Who was talking, Jenny?

A. Gertrude.

Q. Who was present?

A. Paula and me and Sylvia and Johnny and Gertrude.

Q. What was said?

A. She just said -

MR. BOWMAN: I object to this on behalf of Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski, Judge, it is hearsay and it is res inter alios acta as to those two defendants.

THE COURT: Overruled as to John Stephan Baniszewski. Sustained as to Coy Hubbard.

MR. BOWMAN: I will ask that the jury be admonished to disregard the testimony insofar as it relates to a statement made by Gertrude Baniszewski not directed to John Baniszewski.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, you will ignore that question in arriving at a verdict in this case as to the defendant Coy Hubbard. Don't consider it or use it in arriving at a verdict as to the defendant Coy Hubbard. Motion overruled otherwise.

Q. Who do you mean by "she"?

A. Gertrude.

Q. What did Mrs. Baniszewski say?

A. She told Johnny - she said, "Johnny took Sylvia down an alley and he came back home and Sylvia followed him". I was upstairs in the bed. That is what what she told me.

Q. Did you see Sylvia when she returned?

A. No, not till the next morning.

Q. The next morning, did you notice anything concerning Sylvia?

A. What do you mean?

Q. How did she look the next morning?

A. Just the same.

Q. Did you hear any conversation as to what happened down the alley?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled as to that question. Yes or no.

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see any wounds on Sylvia's head, Jenny?

A. Well, some pus was running down her head.

Q. When did you see that?

A. Maybe about four to five days before she died.

Q. And did you see a wound on her head?

A. Well, it was an open sore and pus was coming out of it.

Q. Where on her head, Jenny?

A. On the back of it and on top.

Q. Was anyone else present when you saw this?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Gertrude was holding her hair so I could see it.

Q. And was anyone else present?

A. Paula.

Q. And what was said at this time, if anything?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski. Overruled as to defendants Gertrude Baniszewski and Paula Marie Baniszewski.

A. She just said her head would get infected if she did not get it taken care of.

Q. Did you ever see Mrs. Baniszewski put any medicine on Sylvia's wound?

A. Yes

Q. What was this?

A. Alcohol.

Q. When was this?

A. Three or four days before she died.

Q. Where did she put alcohol?

A. On her legs and arms.

Q. Did you ever see her put any other medicine on the injuries of Sylvia?

A. No, that is all I ever seen her put any kind of medicine on her.

Q. Did you see her put anything else on the wounds?

A. Alcohol is all she used that I know of.

Q. Did you see anybody else other than Mrs. Baniszewski put anything on her wounds?

A. Paula did.

Q. When was this?

A. I'd say a week before she died.

Q. Where was this?

A. Upstairs in the bedroom.

Q. Who was present?

A. Paula and Gertrude and me and Stephanie. Stephanie was getting ready to go to the store. Paula was putting salt in her sores.

Q. Salt?

A. In her sores.

Q. What did she do?

A. Sylvia screamed. They said they knocked Sylvia out but I did not see it.

MR. BOWMAN: I will move to strike it as to Coy Hubbard and John Baniszewski.

THE COURT: Motion sustained to strike the answer. The answer will go out. The jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict as to the defendants Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski. It will stay in otherwise.

Q. Who said this?

A. Well, you mean about knocking her out.

Q. Yes.

A. Gertie told me Paula hit her and just knocked her out.

MR. RICE: We object. It is hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Where were the wounds you saw Paula put salt on?

A. In her leg and knee.

Q. Where did Paula yet the salt?

A. From the kitchen.

Q. Did you see her with a box?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see her pour it out of the box?

A. Sylvia was laying upstairs in bed and I just seen her pouring salt on her. I don't know how much she put on.

Q. When she poured salt on the wound what else did you see?

A. I did not go in the room. I stayed out in the hall. I was getting ready to go to the store, me and Stephanie.

Q. What did Sylvia do then?

A. She just kept screaming.

Q. Did you ever see anyone burn Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. It was in the last week before she died.

Q. And where did this take place?

A. In the kitchen.

Q. And who was present?

A. Me, Gertrude, Paula and Sylvia. I can't say for sure, I think John was.

Q. What did you see and hear?

MR. BOWMAN: Your Honor, Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The jury will ignore the question and answer which is forthcoming as to John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard. Read the question to her.

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection for Gertrude Baniszewski.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. You mean when she was putting salt on her sores or what? Oh, I seen Gertrude burn her.

Q. Alright, now this is about the time you just started testifying, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And what did you see and what did you hear then?

A. When I -

MR. BOWMAN: Same objection.

THE COURT: Same ruling.

A. What did I see her burn her with?

Q. Yes.

A. Cigarettes.

Q. How many times?

A. The only time I ever seen her burn her was three or four times.

Q. Where did she burn her?

A. I seen her burn her chest and back and her arms. That is about all.

Q. What did Sylvia do then?

A. She just backed away.

Q. What was said at this time, if anything?

A. She would go by her and stick the cigarette on her.

Q. She did not say anything to her?

A. No, not that I can remember.

Q. Where did Sylvia sleep the night before she died, Jenny?

A. In the basement.

Q. What happened just prior to the time Sylvia went down in the basement?

A. The night before she died?

Q. Yes.

A. I went to bed around 12:00 o'clock or 12:30 and it was still going on.

Q. What was going on?

A. I could hear her arguing with Sylvia, yelling at her.

Q. Who?

A. Gertrude.

Q. What did she say?

A. "I am going to get you out of my house. You are going to get the hell out of my house".

Q. What else?

A. I don't know. I went to sleep.

Q. Who was at Mrs. Baniszewski's house the night before Sylvia died?

A. Me, Stephanie, Gertrude, Paula - no Paula was upstairs in bed - Johnny.

Q. Was Coy Hubbard present that night?

A. That is what I am trying to figure. Yes, he was.

Q. Was Richard Hobbs present?

A. It was not that late. He was not there that late.

Q. Was he there earlier?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see anything happen to Sylvia before you went to bed?

A. She was standing by the basement door and she said she could not see nothing, she said everything was turning black.

Q. What did she do then?

A. I don't know, she collapsed on the floor real hard.

Q. Did she fall to the floor?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened?

A. Gertrude said to get the hot water and she will get up.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Sylvia just could not get up. I don't know if anybody helped her or not. I can't remember. Every time she got up she would go right back down on the floor.

Q. Did anybody get any hot water?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Gertrude, I think, if I remember right.

Q. Where did she get hot water?

A. Out of the faucet in the sink.

Q. What did she do with it?

A. Poured it on Sylvia.

Q. Where did she pour it?

A. On her face.

Q. Did she let the water faucet run before -

MR. NEDEFF: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What did she put the water in?

A. A cup.

Q. Then what did Sylvia do?

A. She just tried her best to get up.

Q. Was anything else said at this time?

A. I can't remember everything that was said.

Q. What happened then?

A. She just - I guess she got right back up. I don't know how she got up. Then she fell on my foot.

Q. Which foot?

A. My crippled foot. Her head hit my foot. It is coming back. Gertrude had the paddle and Sylvia was sitting on the chair and as far as I can remember Sylvia fell of the chair. The paddle swung back on her eye. She said, "I think my jaw is broken" and she told me to go upstairs and wake up Paula.

Q. Who said that?

A. Gertrude.

Q. Did the paddle hit Sylvia?

A. It missed her and hit Gertrude.

Q. Did you see Gertrude's eye then?

A. Yes.

Q. What did it look like?

A. Well, I don't know, it was swelling up. It don't get black and blue till over night.

Q. I will hand you what has been admitted in evidence as State's Exhibit No. 14, Jenny, and ask you if you have seen that before?

A. Yes.

Q. Is this the paddle about which you have just testified?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Is this the paddle which Mrs. Baniszewski struck at Sylvia?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Did you ever see Mrs. Baniszewski strike Sylvia with that paddle any other time?

A. No, because I did not stay up too much longer after that happened?

Q. I don't mean that night, Jenny, any other time?

A. You mean before that happened?

Q. Yes.

A. Oh, yes, that paddle was used a lot.

Q. On Sylvia?

A. On both of us.

Q. On you too?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times would you say?

A. Oh, man, that is a hard question. It has been used a lot.

Q. Tell the court and jury about one time that you can remember.

A. When the paddle has been used?

Q. Yes, on Sylvia.

MR. ERBECKER: I object. Time and place, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. When was one time of these times?

A. Well, several times. You mean what caused her?

Q. Yes.

A. She would not answer her or would go to the park and pick up bottles and the kids would tell on us.

Q. When did this happen?

A. Sometime in August.

Q. What happened then?

A. Me and Sylvia would find bottles and cash them in. Our father told us we could make a little money when we could. We would put it together and get something.

Q. On this particular day, what happened?

A. When we come home the kids told Gertie we picked up some pop bottles and then she told us to get upstairs and told Paula to get the board, so we got the board.

Q. Who struck Sylvia with the board?

A. Paula.

Q. How many times did she strike her?

A. Well, around ten or fifteen.

Q. Where did she strike her?

A. On the back.

Q. Did someone strike you with the paddle at the same time?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski say anything at this time?

A. Well, when we got back downstairs she says, "What did I tell you girls about collecting bottles and cashing then in"? We said, "You told us not to". I continued and started a big argument.

Q. Did you ever see Mrs. Baniszewski strike Sylvia with anything else?

MR. ERBECKER: We object to the leading and suggestive question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes.

Q. What?

A. A police belt.

Q. When did this happen?

A. I can't say. It was several times.

Q. Tell about one time - when did it happen?

A. Well, about the gym suit.

Q. What about the gym suit?

A. I come home from school.

Q. When was this?

A. September, if I can remember. And Sylvia was sitting on a chair.

Q. Who else was there?

A. Gertrude and Sylvia and me and Paula and that is about it. The kids had not come home from school yet.

Q. What happened?

A. I seen Sylvia's hair was messed up and I asked Gertie what was wrong with it, what was wrong this time. She said "She stole a gym suit from school". Sylvia said, "No, I did not, I found it on the way home from school". It was wet. I think it had been raining. Sylvia kept telling her she had not stole it. She said she did.

Q. What did Mrs. Baniszewski do?

A. Well, she took the police belt and - you know - give it to her, whacked her.

Q. Where did she her her with it?

A. Well, on - in the face, on the back and on her arms and legs.

Q. How many times, Jenny?

A. I don't know, about eight, maybe seven.

Q. Did she strike you with the belt too?

A. Yes.

Q. I will hand you what has been marked for identification purposes as State's Exhibit No. 15 and ask if you have ever seen that before?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Is this the belt about which you have just testified?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Is this the belt Mrs. Baniszewski used on you and Sylvia?

A. Yes, it is.

MISS WESSNER: The State offers in evidence State's Exhibit No. 15.

MR. ERBECKER: No objection.

THE COURT: Show Exhibit No. 15 in evidence.

MR. NEDEFF: None here.

MR. RICE: No objection.

MR. BOWMAN: No objection.

MISS WESSNER: May we pass it to the jury?

THE COURT: And shown to the jury, Exhibit No. 15.

WHEREUPON STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 15 (being a police belt) WAS ADMITTED IN EVIDENCE,
SHOWN TO THE JURY, AND MADE A PART OF THIS RECORD AS FOLLOWS, TO-WIT:

STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 15 FILED SEPARATELY.

Q. Jenny, the night before Sylvia died did anyone else sleep in the basement?

A. No, just the little dog was down there.

Q. Did anyone else ever sleep in the basement, other than Sylvia?

A. No.

Q. Is there another time you can recall, Jenny, when Mrs. Baniszewski used the paddle on Sylvia?

MR. ERBECKER: We object, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Do you remember something happening concerning tennis shoes?

MR. ERBECKER: We object, it is leading and suggestive.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes.

Q. When did this conversation take place, if there was one?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. This assumes something.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Was there a conversation concerning it?

A. Yes.

Q. When did it take place?

A. August.

Q. Where?

A. Me and Sylvia were at Brookside Park.

Q. What happened?

A. Well, there was a tennis shoe laying on the side walk close to the community center and I had a tennis shoe on my right shoe. She said, "Why don't you try the tennis shoe on. It might fit you and nobody wants it". I tried it on and it fit me.

Q. Do you usually wear tennis shoes?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you usually only wear one?

A. Yes, I wore it home to 3850 East New York.

Q. When you got home who was there?

A. Gertrude, Paula, Stephanie - well, Shirley, Marie and Jimmy were with us at the park.

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is not covered by the indictment what happened to the witness here.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. What happened?

Q. Yes.

A. Gertrude said, "Where did you get the tennis shoe, steal it"? I said, "No". She said, "Don't lie to me". I said, "I'm not lying to you". She said, "Paula, get the board".

Q. Is this the paddle you just testified about?

A. Yes, that is the paddle. I kept telling her I did not steal the tennis shoe, that I found it. She did not believe me. I was standing in the dining room. She kept hitting me with the board. I would not tell her I stole it.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It will be stricken. Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, you will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict in this case as to all defendants.

Q. Did she strike at Sylvia at this time?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. Maybe eight - nine or ten times.

Q. Where did she hit Sylvia?

A. On the back.

Q. Anyplace else?

A. Not at this time.

Q. How many times?

A. Nine or ten.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. She just stood there.

Q. Is this the same time she used the paddle on you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia cry?

A. They said she did not have no feelings but I know better. I have seen her cry before but I imagine the reason she did not cry was because she did not have enough water.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The answer will go out. The jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. Did you ever see her cry while she was at Mrs. Baniszewski's?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. Oh, maybe five or six times, I don't know.

Q. What made her cry?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. That is a conclusion.

Q. Can you tell the jury any particular time she cried?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. That is the same thing. It is just rehashing the thing.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. When she would get the board and the belt.

Q. What do you mean "when she got the board and the belt"?

A. That is when she would cry.

Q. You mean when Mrs. Baniszewski hit her with the board?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. It is a leading question.

Q. Did she cry when Mrs. Baniszewski hit her with the board?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

A. Not all the time.

Q. Sometimes?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she cry when Mrs. Baniszewski beat her with the belt?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to the form of the question.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia cry when Mrs. Baniszewski had the belt?

A. Yes, I have seen her cry sometimes.

Q. Did you see Sylvia cry when Paula hit her with the board, if she did?

A. This is going back about two weeks, this is earlier.

Q. She cried earlier than two weeks before she died, is that what you are saying?

A. Yes.

Q. What - about two weeks before she died did you see her cry?

A. Yes, I seen her cry before that happened.

Q. During the two weeks just before her death, did you see her cry?

A. Before the two weeks?

Q. During the two weeks before she died?

A. Not much.

Q. Did you ever see anyone give Sylvia a bath?

A. Yes.

Q. When was this?

A. Oh, every other night.

Q. Were you present?

A. Well, I'd be standing in the bathroom and Stephanie told me to go to bed.

Q. What happened?

A. Well, I heard Sylvia screaming.

Q. Sylvia screaming?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see how they gave her a bath?

A. Well, Gertrude would take her by her arms and Paula by the leg and put her in hot scalding water.

Q. How many times did this happen?

A. I could not answer that, too many times.

Q. Did you ever see anyone put Sylvia's head under the water faucet?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes

Q. When?

A. Well, it was about a week, in the week before she died.

Q. And who was present?

A. Gertrude, me, Paula, Stephanie and Sylvia.

Q. What happened?

A. Gertrude turned on the hot water and held her head up under the faucet.

Q. How long did she hold it under the faucet?

A. I'd say three or four minutes.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Screamed and tried to fight her way out of it.

Q. What else happened, if anything?

A. Well, when they got done with that she would stand there with her hair all wet.

Q. What was said, if anything?

A. I can't remember anything that was said.

Q. Did you ever see Mrs. Baniszewski cut Sylvia?

MR. ERBECKER: We object, Your Honor, that is leading.

THE COURT: Overruled. Yes or no.

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see Mrs. Baniszewski with a knife in her hand?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. They must have done a lot of this when I was not around. I did not see it.

MR. BOWMAN: We move to strike that.

THE COURT: The answer will go out. The jury will ignore this answer in arriving at a verdict in this case.

MR. BOWMAN: I have a Motion to Withdraw the Submission, basing it on the last remark, as well as other remarks made that have been stricken, as well as the admonitions given the jury on many occasions since this started.

THE COURT: Overruled. Next question, please.

Q. Did you ever hear Mrs. Baniszewski say anything to Sylvia concerning fights?

A. She said, "Come on, Sylvia, try to fight me".

Q. When did this happen, Jenny?

A. In September.

Q. When did it - where did it happen?

A. In the dining room.

Q. What did you see and what was said?

A. Well, Gertrude just doubled her fist and kept hitting her and Sylvia would not fight back.

Q. What did Mrs. Baniszewski say?

A. She just said, "Come on and fight".

Q. Did she hit Sylvia then?

A. Yes, she just kept hitting her and Sylvia would not fight back.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia or hear Sylvia provoke anyone?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to all defendants.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia do anything antagonizing toward Mrs. Baniszewski?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The jury will ignore the question in arriving at a verdict in this case. Objection sustained.

Q. What church did you attend when you lived at Mrs. Baniszewski's, Jenny?

A. Memorial Baptist Church.

Q. Where is that?

A. On Alabama Street.

Q. Do you know what hundred block it is?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Did any of the Baniszewski children go to that church?

A. Yes.

Q. Who went?

A. Paula, Stephanie, Shirley, Marie, Jimmy, John and the baby. All except Gertrude.

Q. Was that church close by you?

A. The church bus came after us.

Q. The church bus came after you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did all of you go on the church bus?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you return by the church bus?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you attend Sunday School?

A. Yes.

Q. Was any of the Baniszewski children in your Sunday School class?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Stephanie and Paula.

Q. Was Sylvia in your class?

A. Yes.

Q. When you first went there did you go every Sunday?

A. Not every Sunday.

Q. Did Sylvia go?

A. When she could.

Q. Did she stop going?

A. She wanted to go.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: The answer will go out. The jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. Did she go during the month of October?

A. No.

Q. Did she go during the month of September?

A. Yes, I think she did.

Q. Do you know why she did not go in October?

A. Well, Gertrude said -

MR. ERBECKER: Just a minute, that calls for a yes or no answer.

THE COURT: Yes or no.

A. What was the question - why she did not go?

Q. Yes, do you know why?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there a conversation between Sylvia and Mrs. Baniszewski concerning her going to Sunday School?

A. I know the reason she did not want her to go.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski state the reason?

MR. ERBECKER: We object to that.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What was the reason, Jenny?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did she go during the month of August?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there any difficulty about her going to Sunday School?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you see anything happen between Sylvia and any of the defendants at Sunday School?

MR. ERBECKER: We object as far as Gertrude Baniszewski is concerned.

THE COURT: Sustained as to Gertrude Baniszewski. The jury will ignore the question and answer in arriving at a verdict as to the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski.

MR. BOWMAN: We object to the question because it is vague and indefinite and does not identify the parties involved.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. What happened, Jenny?

A. Well, they was having dinner on the grounds at the church and to hear Paula say it, we ate too much.

Q. She accused Sylvia of eating too much?

A. Yes, they took her down the alley. I did not know anything about it till a little girl, Janice, came and told me.

MR. RICE: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did Sylvia leave?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did she leave with?

A. Paula.

Q. Who did she come back with?

A. Paula.

Q. Then what happened?

A. I was sitting up on the front - you know how the seats are in church. I was sitting up in front and she was in the back. I turned and looked at Sylvia and she motioned and said we were going to get the board when we got home.

Q. When you got home, what happened, if anything?

A. Paula told Gertrude we ate more than we were supposed to. She told us to get upstairs and lay over the bed and take off our clothes.

Q. Who said this?

A. Paula told us to get upstairs and they gave us the board - paddle.

Q. You and Sylvia took your clothes off?

A. Yes.

Q. You said they gave you the board - who?

A. Paula.

Q. Did she hit Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. Fifteen.

Q. Where did she hit her?

A. On the butt.

Q. Had you eaten food at the church?

A. Yes.

Q. Sylvia - what did she eat?

A. Sylvia ate pie and I don't know - just things she liked she ate and she was hungry.

Q. Why was there food at the church?

A. They were having a dinner on the ground, like a picnic or something.

Q. When you first went to Mrs. Baniszewski's did Sylvia have long hair?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. How long was it?

A. It was past her shoulders.

Q. Longer than yours?

A. Yes.

Q. Was her hair cut off after this time?

MR. NEDEFF: We are going to object. I think it is repetitious.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MISS WESSNER: Could we have the last question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Yes.

Q. When did this happen?

A. It was in the last two weeks, I know that. It was in the morning.

Q. Go ahead.

A. But I can't remember what day it was.

Q. The last two weeks before Sylvia died?

A. Yes.

Q. And who cut her hair off?

A. Paula Baniszewski.

Q. What happened at this time?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. What happened?

A. Well, Sylvia was sitting at the kitchen table and Paula got the scissors and started whacking it up.

Q. How short did she cut it?

A. Up to her ears.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Nothing, there was nothing she could do really.

Q. Did Paula say anything?

A. I think she said, "How do you like that"?

Q. What did Sylvia say?

A. She said, "I don't like it".

Q. Did anything else happen at that time?

A. I went to school. You see that happened in the morning. I came back from school and Sylvia was in the kitchen and had a piece of paper in her hand and said Gertrude told her to call the police and her cheeks were all swollen up and her face looked awful. I said, "What is wrong"?

Q. Was anyone else there?

A. Me and Gertie was in bed and Paula was sleeping on the couch, I think. Sylvia was in the kitchen. She said her jaws -

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to all defendants. It is hearsay.

Q. Did you hear any of the defendants say anything at this time?

A. No.

Q. Did you hear Paula say anything concerning Sylvia's swollen face?

A. No, not that I can remember.

Q. Did you see Paula then?

A. Well, I think she was asleep on the couch.

Q. Did you see her?

A. Yes, I seen her on the couch.

Q. Did you notice anything about her unusual?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see a cast on Paula's wrist?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When was this?

A. Well, I think it was in August.

Q. Is this the same time you saw Sylvia with her face swollen?

A. Her face was not swollen as badly.

Q. When did you see this?

A. What, her face?

Q. When Paula's arm was in a cast.

A. In August sometime.

Q. Did you have a conversation with Paula about it?

A. Me?

Q. Yes.

A. No, me and Stephanie came back from the park and Paula was holding her wrist and she told me to go sit down.

MR. ERBECKER: We object unless Gertrude Baniszewski was there.

THE COURT: Sustained as to Gertrude Baniszewski. The jury will ignore the question and the answer in arriving at a verdict in relation to Gertrude Baniszewski.

Q. What did she say?

A. I said, "What is wrong with your wrist"?, and she said, "I broke it on Sylvia's jaw".

Q. Did you see Sylvia's jaw?

A. Yes.

Q. How did it look?

A. The jaw was not swollen so bad. Her ear was all bruised.

Q. What ear?

A. Her right ear.

Q. Describe how it looked to you.

A. All black and blue all around it and all inside.

Q. What happened to Paula's wrist, if you know?

A. She went to the doctor and got a cast on it.

Q. How long did she wear the cast?

A. Five or six weeks.

Q. Did she say why she hit her?

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to Gertrude Baniszewski. The jury will ignore the answer to the question if any is forthcoming, and the question, in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. You may answer.

A. I am going to say this from what I think I remember. I think it was because Paula said Sylvia called Paula a name.

Q. Did you ever hear Sylvia call Mrs. Baniszewski a name?

A. Not that I ever knew.

Q. Did you ever hear Sylvia call Paula Marie a name?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever hear Sylvia call any of the defendants a name?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia do anything to Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. No, I did not see her do anything.

Q. Did you ever see her do anything to Paula?

A. No.

Q. Or to John Baniszewski?

A. They just said Sylvia called their mother a name. I did not hear her.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia do anything to Coy Hubbard?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia do anything to Richard Hobbs?

A. No.

Q. Or call him names?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see anyone other than Coy Hubbard tie Sylvia up?

A. Yes

Q. Who?

A. John Baniszewski.

Q. When was this?

A. It was in the two weeks.

Q. Before she died?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened then?

A. I don't know. He tied her hand up to the wall.

Q. Where was Sylvia then?

A. She was down in the basement.

Q. What did he use to tie her up with?

A. A rope.

Q. How did he tie her?

A. He tied her hands up above her head. He tied her hands together. Then he had her feet tied to a board. I think he had her feet tied to a board.

Q. What board are you talking about?

A. I don't know, there is the stairway and then I don't know what it is.

Q. A board attached to the stairway?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it a wooden stairway?

A. Yes.

Q. The board was attached to the stairway?

A. Yes.

Q. What were her hands tied to?

A. I think there was another board. He tied the rope around it to hold her hands up, I guess.

Q. You say this - was anyone else present other than John?

A. I went down to see her.

Q. No one else was there other than you and John and Sylvia?

A. No.

Q. Was something said at this time?

A. I went back upstairs and Gertie told me to tell Sylvia she could have another chance, that she could have a cracker and see if she would take it and some water. Shirley got a cup of water and I got a cracker and Sylvia said, "I don't want it, give it to the dog, it is hungrier than I am". I said, "I know you are hungry". She said she did not want it. I knew she would get in trouble. Shirley put the water to her mouth and Sylvia drunk it. Shirley ran to her mother and said she drank the water. She could not force it away because her hands were tied. Gertie comes to the basement and said, "You know you were not supposed to have water". Sylvia said, "I did not want it but Shirley made me drink it". Gertie took her fist and kept hitting her in the stomach.

Q. Go on.

A. I don't know then - if I remember, Gertrude said, "Let her stay that way awhile", so we went upstairs.

Q. What was John doing during this time?

A. He was not down there. Me and Shirley went down there.

Q. Did you hear John say anything about this?

A. You mean about the water and crackers?

Q. Tying her up?

A. No.

Q. Did he say why he tied her up?

A. No, I guess he just wanted to tie her up.

Q. Did he strike Sylvia at this time?

A. Not that I seen.

Q. Did you ever see John strike Sylvia with anything?

A. Yes.

Q. When was this?

A. The most - the big part happened during the two weeks.

Q. The two weeks before she died?

A. Yes.

Q. Go on.

A. Well, I seen him hit her with his fist most of the time.

Q. When was this, do you know?

A. In the two weeks is all I know.

Q. How many times did you see this?

A. I don't know. He hit her good and hard with his fist is all I know.

Q. Where did he hit her?

A. In the arms and sometimes in the face.

Q. How did Sylvia look after this happened?

A. Not too good.

Q. Describe how she looked.

A. I don't know. It seemed like her jaw was always swollen the bigger part of the time. It seemed like it was swollen the most part of the time and I could not really tell if he hit her and her jaw was swollen or not.

Q. Did she fall down when he hit her?

A. No, she did not fall down.

Q. What would Sylvia be doing when he hit her?

A. Just standing there, she would not do nothing, just stand there.

Q. What had she done just before he hit her? Did she do anything?

A. You mean to cause him to hit her?

Q. Yes.

A. Not that I know of.

Q. You never - did you ever see John put Sylvia's head under the faucet?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see John throw anything on Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. When was this?

A. Well, I seen him throw cups of hot water on her when she was laying on the basement floor the day she died. You see I left about 4:30 or 5:00 and Gertrude took some dish powder and poured it all over her body and the floor and just kept pouring hot water on her.

Q. Do you know why Mrs. Baniszewski threw dish powder soap on her?

A. Because Sylvia messed the floor.

Q. What do you mean messed?

A. Well, I don't know how to put it. She had a bowel movement.

Q. And then?

A. Then Gertrude said "You are going to clean it up". Sylvia said, "I will". She was groaning.

Q. What?

A. Groaning, and that was the last I seen of her.

Q. What kind of powder was this Mrs. Baniszewski threw on her?

A. Trend.

Q. How much hot water did John throw on her?

A. Well, he took two big large size cups down in the basement with him. That is all I seen.

Q. How was Sylvia dressed then?

A. She had on a pair of white shorts then, that is all.

Q. Anything else?

A. No.

Q. Jenny, I show you what has been admitted in evidence as State's Exhibit No. 16. What are those?

A. Sylvia's white shorts. They was white.

Q. Those are the shorts she was wearing the time about which you testified?

A. Yes, it is.

THE COURT: Is this a convenient place to stop, Miss Wessner?

MISS WESSNER: Yes.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, the court has granted a Motion for Inspection of the Premises known as 3850 East New York Street. All of the parties have consented to this. The sheriff has provided a bus and you will be taken with the bailiff now to the premises known as 3850 East New York Street, Indianapolis, Indiana. Do not talk among yourselves about this matter at the premises and don't let any one else talk to you about this matter of the of the inspection of the premises. You will inspect same in the company of Rose Gaither, Bailiff of this court. While you are on this trip, no person other than the said Bailiff who is appointed to show you the premises and no one should speak to you about the matter or any subject connected with this trial. After you have inspected these premises, the sheriff will return you to the court house and you may then go about your business, because by agreement of counsel and with consent of the defendant and State, given in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. You will return to the jury room tomorrow at 9:30 in the morning. During this adjournment and during the time you are visiting these premises, do not talk among yourselves and don't let anyone else talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion on the case till it is finally submitted to you. Do not read any newspaper articles that may appear about the case and don't watch anything or listen to anything which may be broadcast about the case. The jurors and alternate jurors will retire to the jury room. The bailiff will make arrangements with the sheriff for transportation to the premises known as 3850 East New York Street. You will take the jury through the entire premises, upstairs, downstairs, first floor and so on. Let them inspect as much as they want. You are not to talk among yourselves while making this inspection. Look for yourselves. The court will remain in session. Jury and Alternate Jurors are excused. You will return to the jury room tomorrow morning at 9:30. The entire jury and alternate jurors will make this trip together.

JURY EXCUSED.

THE COURT: Court is still in session. Remain seated. The entry is, State presents evidence in part and parties all agreeing, court grants motion of Gertrude Baniszewski for inspection of the premises, heretofore filed, Court appoints Rose Gaither, Bailiff, to accompany the jury and make inspection thereof. Jury admonished and ordered to Inspect the premises known as 3850 East New York Street and are admonished and ordered to return tomorrow morning at 9:30 for resumption of this trial. Anything further, Gentlemen?

MR. ERBECKER: Defendant Gertrude Baniszewski orally moves the court for permission to have conducted a physical, psychological and psychiatric examination of the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski.

THE COURT: And the defendant moves the court to supply names and addresses of persons making the examination in the court order which defendant produced in court - say that again, sir.

MR. ERBECKER: The defendant will supply the order for the court to sign, designating the names and addresses of the persons requested to make aforesaid examination.

THE COURT: Talk English on this. You want her to have an examination, physical and psychiatric and so on?

MR. ERBECKER: That is right.

THE COURT: A physician of her own choice?

MR. ERBECKER: Yes.

THE COURT: Who will pay for it?

MR. ERBECKER: We will pay it.

THE COURT: Defendant means Gertrude Baniszewski. Granted. You just want the court to make the facilities available?

MR. ERBECKER: Yes, I will make the order.

THE COURT: Don't forget to put in the order - at the expense of the defendant, Gertrude Baniszewski.

MR. ERBECKER: Alright.

THE COURT: Anything further? Alright, Sheriff, you will stay with the bus and so on. Have another sheriff there for security reasons, anybody getting to them to talk. Don't talk to them yourself. As soon as the lanterns come you go immediately with them. We are in adjournment till tomorrow morning at 9:30.

COURT ADJOURNED.

MAY 5, 1966, AND THE TRIAL OF THIS CAUSE WAS RESUMED.

THE COURT: We are all here, Mrs. Court Reporter, the defendants are all here, the lawyers are all here, the prosecutor is here. Before we start, let me notify the attorneys in this case that tomorrow morning I intend to start at 10:00 o'clock. The grand jury is coming in earlier. I want to get that report. That is why we will start at 10:00 instead of 9:30. Any motions?

MR. ERBECKER: Gertrude Baniszewski moves the court to exclude the overflow of spectators because the seating capacity is limited, as exemplified by the conduct of the overflow yesterday, the tumult and snickers during the testimony, particularly that pertaining to Gertrude Baniszewski striking herself allegedly while using the paddle on the deceased, and that the bias and prejudice was magnified by the fact of the nearness and proximity of the overflow of spectators in the aisle, near the door, adjacent to the jury would tend to bias the jury till it would be unable to get a fair and impartial trial by a fair and impartial jury. As an alternative, the defendant respectfully moves the court to again admonish them, order them to restrain themselves and refrain from these demonstrations for the reasons aforesaid.

THE COURT: Overruled for the reasons assigned. Sustained for other reasons. You people there at that door, I am gong to have to enforce the rule because of a motion just made as to the conduct and behavior of you people back there. I can't control you. I thought you would be nice and listen to me and not make any noise, but there is so much disturbance on this side here I am going to have to ask you all to go. Let the record show for the reasons assigned, there will be no standing in the courtroom back there or over here. Come on, let's just try to keep the place orderly. The reason for this, Mrs. Court Reporter, is the orderly process of a court can be disturbed by spectators standing up. Sheriff, enforce the court's order, will you, please? Now, if there are any relatives of the defendants - any relatives of the defendants may stay, provided they are not witnesses in the case. Any relatives of the defendants may stay and - is that satisfactory, Mr. Erbecker?

MR. ERBECKER: Yes, Your Honor, just so she gets a fair trial she is entitled to.

THE COURT: She will get a fair trial as far as the court is concerned. Any other motions?

MR. BOWMAN: Yes, sir, when the jury was given permission to view the scene I inquired of the court on instructions. At this time, I would like to specifically request the court to instruct that the view of the scene is not evidence in this case, not to be considered by them as evidence in this case.

THE COURT: Can I tell them it was done for the purpose to better understand the evidence that comes from the witness stand?

MR. BOWMAN: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: That will be granted. Ready for the jury?

MR. ERBECKER: At this time I have, pursuant to the court's instructions prepared an order for examination of this defendant by the person named herein.

THE COURT: I think the order is too restrictive. If that is what you want, it is alright.

MR. ERBECKER: You do what you think justice dictates.

THE COURT: At the next recess, let me go over the order and make it a little more liberal as to the times and so on. It is getting too specific. I don't think any person would be able to conform. I will reword it a little. It will be granted. Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, yesterday you were permitted to visit the premises known as 3850 East New York Street. What you saw there and what you gathered out there is not evidence in this case, not to be considered as any evidence in this case. You will not use same or consider same as any evidence in this case. You were permitted to visit the scene only to enable you better to understand the evidence given you in court. You will disregard all other evidence except that given you in court, understand? Your next witness, please.

JENNY FAY LIKENS , a witness recalled on behalf of the State of Indiana,
being duly sworn by the Court, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED,
QUESTIONS BY MISS MARJORIE WESSNER,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. State your name, please.

A. Jenny Fay Likens.

Q. Are you the same Jenny Fay Likens who testified yesterday?

A. Yes.

Q. Jenny, did Sylvia own any clothes?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. How many?

A. Oh, I can't say exactly, she had a good of clothes.

Q. What kind of clothes did she have?

A. Dresses, blouses, skirts, things like that.

Q. When you first went to live with Mrs. Baniszewski did your folks bring any clothes to the house?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they bring any at a later time?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. When was this?

A. October 5.

Q. What kind of clothing was this?

A. Dresses and just blouses and skirts.

Q. School clothing?

A. Yes.

Q. Did anything happen to these clothes?

A. You mean Sylvia's?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes.

Q. What Happened?

A. Well, a lot of them got tore up.

Q. Who tore them?

A. Gertrude would tear them off Sylvia.

Q. Did she tear them so they could not be worn again?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It is a leading question.

Q. How did she tear them?

A. She would just take the back and rip it off her.

Q. Did Sylvia ever wear them again?

A. For a little while.

Q. Did anything happen to the rest of her clothing that you know of?

MR. ERBECKER: We object, it is too vague and general.

THE COURT: Overruled, yes or no.

A. No.

Q. Did she own anything besides clothing?

A. Yes.

Q. What?

A. She owned a Bible and a pocketbook and shoes and things like that.

Q. Did she own any jewelry, anything of that sort?

A. She owned a jewelry box.

Q. Where is her Bible?

A. I don't know. Me and Shirley and Benny all had one.

Q. What happened to the jewelry box?

A. I don't know.

Q. Do you have it now?

A. No.

Q. Did you see it after October 26th?

A. No.

Q. Did you see her Bible after October 26?

A. No.

Q. Did you see any of her clothing after that date?

A. No.

Q. Have you seen anything that belonged to Sylvia after that date?

A. No.

Q. Directing your attention to the last two or three days of Sylvia's life, Jenny, did you see any bruise on her body then?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

A. Yes

THE COURT: The answer will go out. Ladies and Gentlemen, you will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict in this case. It is repetitious.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski ever call a doctor for Silvia?

A. No.

Q. Did she ever take her to a doctor?

A. No.

Q. Did she ever do anything to her wounds other than using alcohol, about which you testified yesterday?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. We went through this yesterday.

Q. Was there any other conversation concerning Sylvia when you were present, Jenny, when Mrs. Baniszewski said anything to Sylvia, about which you have not testified?

A. She said she had plans.

Q. When was that conversation?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. She went into it yesterday.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. When was this conversation?

A. Three or four weeks before she died.

Q. Where was it?

A. In the living room.

Q. Who was present?

A. Sylvia, Stephanie, Paula, Donnie MacGuire and her little children and Gertrude.

Q. What was said and done?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. She said we all were going to have to get along a little better if we were going to have to live there.

Q. What else?

A. She said she had some plans she did not want Sylvia to interrupt.

Q. Did she say what these plans were?

A. No.

Q. Did she say who the plans were for?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is leading and suggestive and she is trying to force an answer from the witness.

THE COURT: Overruled, yes or no.

MISS WESSNER: What was the question?

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. No.

Q. Did she say who they were for?

A. No.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said her and her girls had plans.

Q. What was the rest of the conversation, Jenny?

A. I can't remember right now.

Q. Now, was there another conversation you heard Mrs. Baniszewski have with Sylvia about which you have not testified?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled, yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. When was this?

A. About three or four days before she died.

Q. Who was present?

A. Me, Sylvia, Gertrude, Paula, Johnny, Stephanie - about everybody.

Q. What was said and done then?

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection. It is rehashing it.

THE COURT: Overruled as to Gertrude Baniszewski. Sustained as to Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

A. She said she was going to kill her, get rid of her.

Q. What else was said?

A. She said she was going to dump her.

Q. What did Sylvia say, if anything?

A. She did not say nothing but I know she wanted to get out.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. The answer - the latter part of the answer the jury will ignore the latter part of the answer in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. Did Stephanie Baniszewski ever do anything to Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. What?

A. Flip her and help put her in the tub of hot water. She hit her with her fist and the board.

Q. Did you ever see Stephanie cry?

A. Yes.

Q. When was this?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained, the case is not here on Stephanie.

Q. Did you ever strike Sylvia, Jenny?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. Once or twice.

Q. When was this?

A. Well, about three or four weeks before she died.

Q. What happened?

A. I came downstairs and Gertrude said, "Get over and slap your sister". I said, "I have not got any reason". She said, "What I said was to slap her". I slapped Sylvia and she said it was not hard enough. I barely tapped her again.

Q. Any other time?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia go to the refrigerator and get food?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. Just when we first started staying there.

Q. Did that change then?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there ever any conversation about this?

A. Not that I can remember.

Q. Why did it change, Jenny?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. The last two or three weeks before she died, did you see her go to the refrigerator for food?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see Mrs. Baniszewski, within three or four days of Sylvia's death, hit her in the head with the paddle?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is leading and suggestive.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. In the last three or four days of Sylvia's life, did you see anyone hit her that you have not testified about?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you see anyone give Sylvia a bath the last two or three days of her life?

MR. ERBECKER: We object, they went into it before.

THE COURT: Sustained. You went into it yesterday.

MISS WESSNER: Your Honor, we have not.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Sylvia, I will show you - strike that - Jenny, I will show you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 5 and introduced, admitted in evidence, and ask you if you have ever seen that before?

A. Yes.

MR. BOWMAN: I will object to the question on behalf of Coy Hubbard and John Baniszewski for the reason the exhibit is not in evidence.

THE COURT: Overruled. Yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. When did you see it?

A. Three or four days before she died.

Q. Who wrote the note?

A. Sylvia.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It speaks for itself. The jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. Who was present when it was written?

A. Gertrude, Paula, me and Sylvia.

Q. What was said or done then?

A. She told her what to write.

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski. The jury will ignore the question and answer in arriving at a verdict as to John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard.

Q. What was said or done then?

A. She told her to write down that a gang of boys done this to her.

Q. Who told her this?

A. Gertrude.

Q. What else was said?

A. Sylvia said she did not know what else to write.

Q. Then what?

A. So Gertrude told her what to write.

Q. Did you see Sylvia write?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Then what happened, Jenny?

A. I don't know, she was writing down what she said.

Q. I will hand you what has been admitted in evidence as State's Exhibit No. 17. Have you seen that before?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Did you see that written?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Were you present then?

A. Yes.

Q. Who else was present?

A. Gertrude, Paula and me.

Q. When was that written?

A. I'd say about, just a minute, I'd say around a week before her death, five days.

Q. You were present then?

A. Yes.

Q. What was said or done?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

A. She told her to write down, tell her mom and dad what she had been doing the last two weeks.

THE COURT: The jury will ignore that answer in arriving at a verdict in regard to Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

Q. Who is she?

A. Gertrude Baniszewski.

Q. And who did she tell these things to?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Did Sylvia write them?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see these notes again, Jenny?

A. No.

Q. Did Sylvia start in school in September 1965?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did she go?

A. I'd say about three or four weeks.

Q. Then did she stop?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know why?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Yes or no, overruled.

A. Yes.

Q. Why?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. On October 15, 1965, did the school nurse come to 3850 East New York Street?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled, yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. Were you present then?

A. Yes.

Q. Who else was present?

A. Gertrude.

Q. What happened then?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It calls for a conclusion, what happened.

THE COURT: Sustained as to the form of the question.

Q. What did you see or what did you hear then?

A. She said the neighbors had called in about someone having sores all over their body.

Q. Who said this?

A. The school nurse.

Q. What did Mrs. Baniszewski say?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained as to Coy Hubbard and John Baniszewski. Answer the question.

A. She said, "You can check all my children, they have not got any sores on their body".

THE COURT: The jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict as to John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard. Next question.

Q. Where did this conversation take place?

A. In the living room.

Q. And were you in the living room?

A. For a little while.

Q. Did you leave?

A. She told me to go in the kitchen and do the dishes.

Q. Who told you this?

A. Gertrude.

Q. Did you go in the kitchen then?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Sylvia present?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was Sylvia?

A. Down in the basement.

Q. Did she come up any time during the visit of the school nurse?

A. No.

Q. How long did the school nurse stay?

A. I'd say about ten or fifteen minutes.

Q. Did you hear a conversation that Mrs. Baniszewski had concerning Sylvia's going school?

MR. ERBECKER: We are going to object to that, it assumes a conversation not in evidence.

THE COURT: Overruled, yes or no.

A. She Said -

THE COURT: Yes or no?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that conversation?

A. You mean when the nurse came over?

Q. Was there another one?

A. No.

Q. What was this conversation?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. When was this conversation, Jenny?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. About a week and a half, maybe before her death.

Q. What was this conversation?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled. Objection sustained as to all defendants were there.

Q. Who was present?

A. Gertrude and me.

Q. What was the conversation?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained as to John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard.

MR. RICE: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained as to Paula Marie Baniszewski.

A. She told the nurse Sylvia was at the Juvenile Center.

Q. Had Sylvia ever been at Juvenile Center?

A. No.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski ever tell you to say this?

A. Yes.

Q. When was this?

A. When I went to school and church.

Q. Did you follow these instructions?

A. Yes, at one time.

Q. When was this one time?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It calls for conversation outside the presence of the defendant.

THE COURT: Sustained as to all defendants.

Q. Did you have a conversation with any of the defendants concerning Sylvia being at the Juvenile Center, other than Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. I did not understand your question - did I talk to the defendants?

Q. Yes, about Sylvia being at the Juvenile Center?

A. No, because I knew she was not.

Q. Did something happen at the time you said Sylvia was not at the Juvenile Center?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

A. Yes.

THE COURT: The answer will go out. The jury will ignore that answer in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. What was your conversation with Mrs. Baniszewski concerning Sylvia being in the Juvenile Center?

MR. ERBECKER: We object, it has been rehashed.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. When did this happen?

A. Sunday night at church.

Q. What Sunday night was it?

A. It was in October.

Q. Who was present?

A. Well, it was on the church bus.

Q. Who was on that church bus?

A. John and Jimmy and Shirley Marie and Janice.

Q. Was Paula present?

A. No.

Q. And then when you got home what happened, if anything?

A. I went upstairs and Shirley told her mom, woke up her mother and told her I told my girl friend at church that she was at home. I was supposed to say she was at Juvenile.

Q. This conversation was with Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. What did Mrs. Baniszewski say or do then?

A. Told me to get in the kitchen and I got in the kitchen and she kept hitting me in the eye with her fist and my eye got swollen.

Q. Was anything else said at that time?

A. She said, "Now you are acting like Sylvia".

Q. She said you were acting like Sylvia, anything else?

A. She told Sylvia to get back downstairs.

Q. What do you mean?

A. Sylvia was in the kitchen.

Q. Where did Sylvia go then?

A. Down to the basement.

Q. How long did she stay in the basement then?

A. Over night.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski do anything to Sylvia at this time?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did Paula do anything to Sylvia at this time?

MR. RICE: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you ever see anyone put a gag in Sylvia's mouth?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It is leading.

Q. Did you ever see John do anything to Sylvia the last two weeks of her life?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. Maybe a week or something like that before her death.

Q. Who was present?

A. John, me, Sylvia, Gertrude, I can't think who else was present.

Q. What happened?

MR. BOWMAN: Your Honor, I will object. We went in this yesterday. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Sustained as to defendant Coy Hubbard. Overruled as to defendant John Baniszewski.

Q. You may answer.

A. He put something in a rag or something in her mouth to gag her.

Q. How did he do this?

A. Just stuffed it in her mouth.

Q. Then what happened?

A. He hit her with his fist.

Q. Where did he hit her?

A. The arm, and face.

Q. What did Sylvia do then?

A. She just stood there.

Q. Did you see John do this at any other time?

A. Yes.

Q. When was this?

A. About three days before her death.

Q. Who was present then?

A. Sylvia, John me, I can't exactly think who all was there.

Q. Then what happened?

A. The same thing.

Q. Tell the jury and the court what happened?

A. He hit her with his fist and gagged her.

Q. What did he put in her mouth this time, if anything?

A. Just rags.

Q. Was she tied?

A. Yes, he tied her up with a rope, her hands.

Q. Have you seen John do anything else to Sylvia?

A. I think I remember him flipping -

MR. BOWMAN: Your Honor, that calls for a yes or no.

THE COURT: Yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. When did you see this?

A. Four days before her death.

Q. And where were you when this happened?

A. In the living room.

Q. Who was present?

A. Gertrude, Me, Paula, John, Stephanie.

Q. What happened then?

A. He flipped her.

Q. How?

A. Well he would take her over his shoulder and throw her to the floor.

Q. How did he take hold of her?

A. By the arm.

Q. Did she hit the floor?

A. Yes.

Q. How far did he throw her?

A. Well, not clear across the room, but I can't say how far.

Q. Did her head hit the floor?

A. Not that I seen.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. She tried to get back up.

Q. What else did she do?

A. She did get up.

Q. Then what happened?

A. I can't think right now.

Q. How many times did he do this?

A. You mean the time I am talking about?

Q. This particular time you are talking about, how many times did he flip her?

A. About twice.

Q. Did you see John do this any other time?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. Have you see John do anything else to Sylvia about which you have not testified?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see Coy Hubbard do anything?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. Oh, about three nights before she died, he tied her up.

Q. Where was she then?

A. Up on the mattress, upstairs on the floor.

Q. Who was present?

A. Me and Shirley, Marie was asleep in the bed, and Coy Hubbard, Stephanie was in the hall.

Q. What happened then?

MR. BOWMAN: We object. It is repetitious. It was gone into yesterday.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you ever see Coy Hubbard flip Sylvia?

A. I can't think right now.

Q. Did you ever see Coy Hubbard do anything else to Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. What?

A. Well, down in the basement -

Q. When was this?

A. Around three days before her death.

Q. Who was there?

A. Me and Coy Hubbard, Sylvia and Gertrude and I can't remember anybody else being down there.

Q. What happened then?

A. I can't say if Coy did it or not, some of them gagged her.

MR. BOWMAN: I move to strike that, Your Honor.

THE COURT: That will be stricken from the evidence. The jury will ignore that part of the answer in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. What else happened?

MR. BOWMAN: We object to that.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The preliminary question was as to Coy Hubbard. Limit it to that Miss Prosecutor.

Q. What did you see, Jenny?

A. He would bang her real hard against the wall.

Q. Who did this?

A. Coy Hubbard.

Q. How did he do it?

A. I don't know, she would stand up and he would throw her.

Q. How far did he throw her?

A. Approximately from here to the wall.

Q. How many times did he do this?

A. Oh, six or seven times.

Q. Did she fall down when he would do this?

A. That that I seen her.

Q. What did she do?

A. Well, she kept holding her arm and said it was hurting her.

Q. Anything else?

A. No.

Q. Did you see anything else at this time?

A. Not that time.

Q. Did you see him do something to her another time?

A. He hit her with his fist.

Q. Who hit her?

A. Coy Hubbard.

Q. Hit who?

A. Sylvia.

Q. When was this?

A. About five days before her death.

Q. Where did this happen?

A. If I remember, it was in the kitchen.

Q. Who was present?

A. Me, Coy, Sylvia, Gertrude and Paula and John.

Q. What happened then, what did you see?

A. Well, he hit her with his fist and hit her in the face.

Q. How many times?

A. Two or three times.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. She just stood there.

Q. Did she say anything?

A. Well, she would moan and groan and that was all she could do, I guess.

Q. Coy Hubbard - did Coy Hubbard say anything?

A. No.

Q. Do you recall anyone else saying anything at that time?

A. No.

Q. Did you see the defendant Richard Hobbs do anything to Sylvia other than what you have already testified to?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see anyone throw a coke bottle at Sylvia?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes.

Q. When did this happen?

A. I'd say a week before her death.

Q. Where did it happen?

A. In the dining room.

Q. Who was present?

A. Sylvia, Paula, Gertrude, I can't think who else.

Q. What happened?

A. I don't know, Sylvia just was sitting there and she must not have heard Paula or something.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The answer will go out.

Q. What did Paula say, if anything?

A. I can't remember. All I seen her do was throw a coke bottle at Sylvia.

Q. Where was Paula when she did this?

A. In the dining room, just across the table.

Q. Did the coke bottle hit Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Where?

A. On the hand, if I remember.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. She just held her hand.

Q. Did she say anything?

A. Yes, she was not looking, she did not know Paula was going to throw it at her.

Q. Did she make any sound?

A. Not that I can remember.

Q. Did she do anything?

A. Just hold her hand.

Q. Have you seen Paula do anything else about which you have not testified?

A. Oh, yes, one time.

Q. When was this?

A. This happened before the two weeks. What she done was in the two weeks. Marie and Sylvia went to the park, Brookside. I was not with her and Sylvia met my sister Diane Shoemaker and Sylvia told her she was hungry. Diane got her a sandwich and a coke.

MR. ERBECKER: We object and ask that that be stricken unless it happened in the presence of Gertrude Baniszewski.

THE COURT: Sustained as to the entire question because she said she was not with her.

Q. Did Sylvia come back to the house then?

A. Yes.

Q. Who came back with her?

A. Marie.

Q. Was there a conversation in the presence of anyone of the defendants when she came back to the house?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. She did not tell it right away, she told it in two weeks.

MR. RICE: We object. It is not responsive.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The answer will go out.

Q. When did you hear the conversation concerning this?

A. Maybe five or six days before her death.

Q. Who was present?

A. Me, Gertrude, Paula, Marie, Shirley and John.

Q. What was said?

A. And Stephanie.

Q. What was said?

A. Marie told on Sylvia.

Q. What did she tell?

A. She told Diane that she was hungry and then Paula choked Sylvia.

Q. How did she do this?

A. Well, she would not let go and I turned around and went in the kitchen and then Gertrude said, "Let go of her, Paula".

Q. Why did you go in the kitchen?

A. Because I did not want to see it.

Q. Describe what Paula did?

A. She put her hand around Sylvia's neck and kept pressing on her throat.

Q. How long did she do this?

A. About a half minute or a minute.

Q. How did Sylvia look?

A. She seemed like she was going to the floor, going to fall down.

Q. Did she say anything?

A. No.

Q. Did she make any sound?

A. Yes.

Q. What kind of sound?

A. You know how you would act, getting choked. I can't tell you exactly how she sounded.

THE COURT: Next question, please.

Q. What did she do?

A. Paula let go of her.

Q. Then what was said or done?

A. Gertrude said, "Why did you not tell me about this"?

Q. Then what happened? What was said?

A. Sylvia said, "I was afraid you would give me a whipping".

Q. Then what was said, if anything?

A. I can't remember what was said.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski do anything then?

A. I think she had the board in her hand.

Q. Did she do anything with this board?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she do?

A. Hit Sylvia on the head with it and on the back.

Q. How many times?

A. I say she hit her on the back five or six on the head once or twice.

Q. What did Sylvia do then?

A. She acted like she was going to lose her balance and fall down.

Q. Did she fall down?

A. Not that I seen.

Q. Did she say anything?

A. No.

Q. Did she scream?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. I don't know.

Q. What happened then, Jenny, if anything?

A. Then we had supper.

Q. Did Sylvia eat?

A. Well, I went down to the store and I came back and the said Sylvia had already ate. I did not want all mine and I said could I give it to Sylvia. Sylvia looked up at me and said, "Can I have it"? I said, "you can have it if you want it". Gertrude would not let me give it to her.

Q. Did anything else happen then?

A. I think they gave her a bath that night.

Q. Who gave her a bath?

A. Gertrude and Paula.

Q. What did they do when they gave her a bath?

A. Filled the tub with hot water and tied her hands be her back.

Q. Who did this?

A. Gertrude or Paula. I am pretty sure they tied her feet.

MR. RICE: We object to the answer unless it is made specific.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Go ahead and describe what happened.

A. Well, they had her lay in the water a little while. I heard her screaming. I just looked in the bathroom. I did not stay in there very long.

Q. Did you see Mrs. Baniszewski do anything to her hair at this time?

A. Yes.

MR. ERBECKER: We object to the leading and suggestive question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. What did she do?

A. Take her head and hit her head against the tub about five or six times.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Just scream.

Q. Did anything else happen then?

A. She had the board.

Q. What did she do with the board - who had the board?

A. Gertrude.

Q. What did she do with the board?

A. Told Sylvia to wash and she hit her in the head with it and on the arm and back.

Q. How many times?

A. I'd say about two times in the head.

Q. Is this board the one you identified yesterday?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened then?

A. Then she would hit her on the back and arm. I can't tell how many times.

Q. Was there anything else then?

A. Then she got out of the bath tub and Gertrude and Paula and all of them went downstairs. I was in the bathroom. Sylvia told me to get her clothes. I did. She said, "Jenny, I know you don't want me to die but I am going to die, I feel it".

Q. When did this happen, Jenny?

A. About three or four days before her death.

MR. NEW: May we have a recess, Your Honor..

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, this recess will be as long as ten or fifteen minutes. Retire to the jury room. During this recess, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion on the case till it is finally submitted to you. Court will remain in session. Jury and Alternate jurors are excused.

JURY EXCUSED.

RECESS.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Next question.

Q. Jenny, did you ever see any one push Sylvia down the steps?

A. Yes.

Q. When did this happen?

A. In the two weeks.

Q. Before Sylvia died?

A. Yes.

Q. And who was present?

A. Me and Sylvia, Paula, Gertrude, Stephanie was one time, Johnny, Randy Lepper, Coy Hubbard and I can't remember if Ricky was or not.

Q. Which steps are you referring to?

A. The basement steps.

Q. And what happened, what did you see and hear?

A. Well, I did not see her fall down the steps. I was in the kitchen and heard someone say they were going to trip her. Gertrude said, "Here is how to do it". Sylvia said, "I don't want to" and she threw her down.

Q. Who threw her?

A. Gertrude.

Q. Where did Sylvia land.

A. I know it was close to the bottom step. I don't know if she hit the cement or not.

Q. Did this happen more than once?

A. I'd say two or three times.

Q. This was all at the same day?

A. Well, I'd say different days.

Q. Different days?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell about another day it happened?

A. Well, Sylvia was coming down the steps leading from the bedroom, coming down to the living room. Paula tripped her. She caught her balance and did not fall. When she got downstairs Gertrude ripped her dress off her.

Q. What was said at that time?

A. If I remember, I think Gertrude said, "I hate you, I hate you. You are going to get the hell out of my house".

Q. When did this happen?

A. Four or five days before she died.

Q. Did you see Sylvia go down the steps any other time?

A. I have seen her go down the steps a lot of times.

Q. Pushed down the steps?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. If Gertrude was behind her, she would shove her or kick her.

Q. Where did she kick her?

A. She would just be walking down the steps and she would kick her in the back.

Q. What happened to Sylvia?

A. She would lean against the wall.

Q. Did she kick her the rest of the way down?

A. She would just shove her.

Q. How many times did you see this?

A. Three or four times.

Q. Did you see anyone else kick or shove her down the steps other than Mrs. Baniszewski and Paula?

MR. RICE: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you see Sylvia pushed or kicked down the steps any other time than what you have testified?

A. Just Paula and Gertie is all I seen.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski have a kitchen stove?

A. No, she did not.

Q. Did you ever have any hot meals?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she cook on?

A. A hotplate.

Q. Did something happen concerning a coke bottle, Jenny, other than what you have already testified?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is leading and suggestive.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Have you seen Mrs. Baniszewski do something other than what you have already testified about?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes.

Q. When did this happen?

A. About the pepsi bottle?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is leading and suggestive.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

A. The last week before she died.

Q. Where was this?

A. In the living room.

Q. Who was present?

A. Me, Johnny, Gertie and Paula.

Q. What did you see and what did you hear?

MR. ERBECKER: We object, Your Honor.

MR. RICE: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled. The question is "What did you see and what did you hear"?

A. She told Sylvia to spread out her legs and put the bottle up her.

Q. Did Sylvia have any clothes on then?

A. I think she had a pair of shorts on.

Q. Anything else?

A. And a blue blouse, if I remember right.

Q. What kind of a bottle was this?

A. A pepsi bottle.

Q. What did you see then?

A. Well, she said, "Prove to Jenny what kind of girl you are" and she kept telling her to push it up there.

Q. Describe what you saw and heard, if anything else?

A. It is hard to describe really.

THE COURT: Next question.

Q. Did you see this happen any other time?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. In the kitchen.

Q. Who was present then?

A. Rickie Hobbs, Me, Sylvia, Gertrude and Paula and I think John.

Q. When did this happen?

A. Maybe three or four days before her death.

Q. What did you see then?

A. She told her the same thing.

Q. Who is she?

A. Gertrude.

Q. How was Sylvia dressed then?

A. I don't think she had anything on then.

Q. What did Sylvia say?

A. She just said, "I can't".

Q. Did she say anything else?

A. Gertrude said, "You can do better than that".

Q. What was Sylvia doing?

A. What Gertrude told her to.

Q. Did anything else happen at this time?

A. I think this is the same day they put that on her stomach because Rickie Hobbs was over there.

Q. Was that before or afterwards it was written on her stomach?

A. When they had the pepsi bottle?

Q. Yes.

A. This was before.

Q. How long did this happen, Jenny?

A. What do you mean?

Q. When they were telling her to use the coke bottle - how long did this take?

A. Well, two or three days.

Q. Before Sylvia died, you mean?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, directing your attention to October 26, 1965, did you go to school that day?

A. Yes.

Q. Is this the day Sylvia died?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And did you see Sylvia before you went to school?

A. Yes - no, no.

Q. Where was she?

A. She was down in the basement.

Q. Had she been there all night?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you come home for lunch?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. About what time did you get home?

A. Around - we got out around ten till 12:00 or something like that, I can't quite remember.

Q. What did you do when you came home then?

A. Went down in the basement to see Sylvia.

Q. Sylvia was in the basement?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. Was anyone else down there?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Gertrude and me.

Q. And what did Sylvia say, if anything?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained as to the defendants Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

MR. RICE: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained as to Paula Marie Baniszewski.

A. Well, I can't remember what she said because -

THE COURT: Next question, please.

Q. Did you hear her make any sound?

A. Yes, she just - I don't know - would not talk or nothing, she just - I mean I could not understand what she was saying.

Q. Was she trying to talk?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you hear any words?

A. Not at that time.

Q. Did you later that day?

A. Later on, yes.

Q. When was this?

A. When I got home from school.

Q. Did Sylvia eat anything this noon?

A. No.

Q. Did any one take her food down in the basement?

A. No.

Q. Did Gertrude say anything to her when she was down in the basement?

A. I think she asked her if she was hungry.

Q. What did Sylvia say?

A. Yes, but she was out of her head.

Q. Did you see her eat any food then?

A. At noon?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

Q. Did you see anything else at noontime?

A. No, I went back to school.

Q. And then when did you come home from school in the afternoon?

A. Around - we get out - I can't remember, 3:00 or 3:30. I got home around twenty till 4:00.

Q. What did you do when you came home?

A. Went to the basement to see Sylvia.

Q. Who was down there then?

A. Paula.

Q. Anyone else?

A. No.

Q. What did you see then?

A. Sylvia was sitting on the floor, sitting up.

Q. What did you hear?

A. Paula said Sylvia -

MR. ERBECKER: We object to this conversation in the absence of Gertrude Baniszewski.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to Gertrude Baniszewski.

Q. Just Sylvia and you and Paula were present?

A. Yes.

Q. What was said?

A. She told Sylvia to move her hand. She said she would jump on it if she did not move it. Sylvia moved it. She said she would broad jump on it. Sylvia did not get up.

THE COURT: The jury will ignore that answer in arriving at a verdict in the case of the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski.

Q. Was anything else said?

A. Gertrude came down and Rickie.

Q. Rickie Hobbs?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you see then?

A. Someone - Sylvia was pointing at Gertie and Rickie and said, "You are Gertie and you are Ricky". Gertrude said, "Shut up, you know who I am," or something like that.

Q. What did you see Mrs. Baniszewski do, if anything?

A. She just was telling Sylvia to get up and then I went over there and Sylvia said she felt like her teeth were loose. I tried to explain when she was seven she got a front tooth knocked out. She had another tooth chipped and a third was chipped. It must have been when she got hit in the mouth because it was not chipped.

Q. The third tooth was not chipped when you went to Mrs. Baniszewski's?

A. No.

Q. What else did you see or hear?

A. Well, that is all I said to her. I went upstairs. I was getting ready to leave. John came upstairs and got two cups of hot water and took down in the basement. Gertrude got the trend dish soap and poured it all over Sylvia's body.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. We went through all this yesterday.

MR. ERBECKER: We move that the court admonish the jury.

THE COURT: The jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict in this case against all defendants.

Q. Did Sylvia eat anything at this time?

A. She had a pear in her hand but she could not eat it though.

Q. Did she try to eat it?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see the pear?

A. Yes.

Q. What was it like?

A. It did not look too good.

Q. Did you see Mrs. Baniszewski do anything else at this time?

A. Yes.

Q. What?

A. I remember Sylvia was laying on the basement floor by the steps. Why she did this I can't tell you. She took both feet and stepped on Sylvia's head.

Q. Who did?

A. Gertrude.

Q. Did she stand on her head?

A. She was standing with both feet on Sylvia's head and face.

Q. Did she put her full weight on Sylvia's head?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did she stand there?

A. Just a little while then she got off. I can't tell how long she was there.

Q. Was there any conversation at this time?

A. I just said, "Gertie, I want to go get ready to go rake leaves and try to make money". I went upstairs and I looked back down in the basement and they had soap all over her.

Q. Did you leave then?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you go?

A. To rake leaves.

Q. When did you come back?

A. I'd say around 7:00 or 7:30.

Q. When you came back what did you see?

A. Well, I seen a police car pull up and I said, "I am going in and see what happened". As I ran up to the sidewalk someone said Paula or Stephanie might be hurt. I ran in the door and they said Sylvia was dead.

Q. Who said that?

A. I don't know. I asked the police officer if he would let me see my sister. They told me they would but they did not. I was there a while and Paula came in the door and Stephanie said, "Sylvia is dead". She said, "You are kidding" or something like that. They were trying to calm me down. Then the policeman - I was sitting in the living room a good while and Paula got out the Bible and started reading the Bible to me, about people dying and things like that and said, "This was meant to happen" and things like that.

Q. What else did she say to you?

A. She said, "Do you want to live with us, we will treat you like our own sister".

Q. Did she say anything else about dying?

A. She just kept reading chapters in the Bible and then the police officer called me in the kitchen.

Q. Did you have a conversation with Gertrude Baniszewski at this time?

A. A short one.

Q. What was this conversation?

A. She said, "Did you tell them I have been doctoring Sylvia"?

Q. What else did she say?

A. That is about all. I told the policeman -

MR. ERBECKER: We object what she told the policeman, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Do you recall anything else Mrs. Baniszewski said?

A. Well, she was in the living room and the police officer asked me a question and I said -

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. Yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. What did she say?

A. I don't know - it was some kind of question and she said I was wrong about it - I forget right now.

Q. Did she say anything else to you about what you should say to the police officer?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is leading and suggestive.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes.

Q. What?

A. She wanted to know if I told them a gang of boys did this and I told the police officer - I said - "If you get me out of here I will tell you everything".

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Hearsay.

Q. What did Mrs. Baniszewski say to you?

A. About the gang of boys - well, I kept on that story because I just wanted to get out of that house. When I got to headquarters I told them everything.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The answer will go out.

Q. Just what Mrs. Baniszewski said to you, Jenny, if you will tell the jury that?

A. She just wanted to know if I told them she was doctoring her, if I said a gang of boys did this?

Q. Did Paula say anything else to you at this time?

MR. RICE: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled, yes or no.

A. No, I can't remember.

Q. These things you have testified to, Jenny, that the defendants did, did that all happen in Marion County, Indiana?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. Jenny, can you tell the jury and court why you did not get help or tell someone what was happening?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Well, I was scared for one thing and she kept beating on me and kept telling everybody Sylvia was in Juvenile and I guess I just did what she said and I wish I had not.

MR. ERBECKER: We object, it calls for mental operation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MISS WESSNER: You may cross.

THE COURT: Gertrude Baniszewski may cross examine the witness.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Now, Miss Likens, how old are you?

A. I am sixteen years old.

Q. Are you in pain now by reason of your polio?

A. It don't bother me too much, I am sort of used to it.

Q. Does it bother you occasionally, periodically?

A. No.

Q. You testified you went to the kitchen and talked with the police, without relating the conversation. How long did you talk to the police out there - not the conversation, now, just how long?

A. I'd say approximately a half hour or forty-five minutes.

Q. Do you know the police officer's name?

A. Sgt. Kaiser and I did not pay much attention to the others.

Q. Around 7:00 when you first came back, was it?

A. If I can remember right.

Q. Did you talk to any other police officer? Not the conversation. Did you talk to another police officer?

A. I talked to several police officers.

Q. At the house?

A. Yes.

Q. When you first came in, first got home?

A. Yes.

Q. How many police officers did you talk to, do you remember?

A. I'd say about four or five.

Q. Did they talk to you together or one at a time?

A. Well, one would talk to Gertrude and come in and talk to me.

Q. How well did you know Stephanie Baniszewski?

A. Oh, I knowed her - about how long have I knowed her?

Q. Yes.

A. Three or four months.

Q. You met her the same time you met the rest of them?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you and Stephanie ever go to the park together?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. How many times?

A. I'd say about four or five times, maybe.

Q. Have you talked to Stephanie since this trial began?

A. No, I have not.

Q. Have you ever talked to Stephanie after the day after your sister died?

A. Not the day after, no.

Q. Did you talk to her the day she died?

A. Yes.

Q. After 7:00 o'clock that night or before? Not the conversation, now, but the time?

A. When I got there she just told me Sylvia was dead.

Q. Did you talk to her at that time - Stephanie?

A. Yes.

Q. I think you testified you went to grade school, Miss Likens, right?

A. That is right.

Q. What school?

A. 78

Q. Did you graduate there?

A. No, I did not.

Q. How many years did you go?

A. Just to the eighth.

Q. You were close to your deceased sister, were you?

A. I was.

Q. You and she ran around together?

A. Yes, we did, sir.

Q. When was the last time you talked to any law enforcement officer about this case?

A. I -

Q. Yesterday or today?

A. Police officers or attorneys?

Q. Yes, police officers or attorneys?

A. I talked to Mr. New.

Q. Today?

A. Yes.

Q. With reference to your testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it with reference to what you testified to yesterday?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you talk to Miss Marjorie Wessner?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Today?

A. Yes.

Q. This morning?

A. Yes.

Q. Naturally you talked to her yesterday?

A. Yes.

Q. You talked as to what you testified yesterday and what your testimony was to be today, right?

A. That is right.

Q. Did you go over it with them again today?

A. Some of it, yes.

Q. How much time was consumed yesterday in conversation with Mr. New or Miss Wessner before you went on the witness stand?

A. What did you say?

Q. How much time was used by you and Mr. New and Miss Wessner yesterday in conversation before you took the stand?

A. I'd say ten or fifteen minutes.

Q. How much time this morning, if any, was used in conversation between you and Mr. New and Miss Wessner?

A. Five or ten minutes.

Q. Now, Miss Likens, when you testified yesterday, did you testify to things you honestly saw or merely - were you merely repeating stories you had heard?

A. I testified what I seen and did hear.

Q. A lot of testimony was what you had heard, was it?

A. Yes.

Q. About what happened?

A. Yes.

Q. By heard, I don't mean you being present physically and hear then, I mean a lot of testimony was what someone else told you, isn't it?

A. Wait a minute, what I heard is what I am talking about when I was at the Baniszewski home, what I heard her say to Sylvia, and people say to Sylvia is what I am testifying.

Q. Have you ever testified anything there that someone else told you happened?

A. No.

Q. Were you seated here all during the trial?

A. Yes.

Q. There next to Mr. New?

A. Yes.

Q. And you heard all the police officers testify, didn't you?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And you heard all they testified about the pictures and everything, did you?

A. Yes.

Q. You heard the doctors testify?

A. Yes.

Q. Now then, did that testimony influence your testimony any way? By that, I mean did it increase your testimony - cause you to change it or cause you to add to it any way?

A. No.

MR. NEW: We object unless he says from what?

THE COURT: Overruled, the answer is no.

Q. Did you testify yesterday that you heard some of these things so they must be so, or words to that effect, did you say that yesterday?

MR. NEW: We object. The jury heard the testimony.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you testify yesterday, these words in substance, like this, "They must have done a lot of this when I was not around because I did not see all that" or words to that effect?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

A. Yes.

THE COURT: The answer will go out. The jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict in this case, the objection having been sustained.

MR. ERBECKER: We'll appeal to the record.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Next question.

MR. ERBECKER: I ask that the jury be withdrawn in order to make a record.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Next question, please.

MR. ERBECKER: At this time let the record show Gertrude Baniszewski makes an Offer to Prove. May I do that, Your Honor?

THE COURT: In the presence of the jury? It is up to you.

MR. ERBECKER: I prefer they withdraw.

MR. BOWMAN: We object to that delay. An Offer to Prove is not proper.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

MR. ERBECKER: Again I make an Offer to Prove.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Next question, please.

MR. ERBECKER: At this time the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski respectfully moves the court for permission to make a record - an Offer to Prove in open court.

THE COURT: Is there an objection to that?

MR. BOWMAN: Yes, it is an unnecessary delay of the trial and second, an Offer to Prove is neither necessary nor proper on cross examination.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Offer to Prove denied.

Q. Now, Miss Likens, you are biased and prejudiced against the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski, aren't you?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. You have a feeling of hatred against the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski, don't you?

MR. NEW: We object.

A. I sure do.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The answer will go out and the jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. You do have a hostile feeling toward Gertrude Baniszewski, don't you?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Do you have a kindly feeling toward the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. I will ask you if you have ever said this, or this in substance, since yesterday, "that you would do or testify to anything to get even with Gertrude because of the death of your sister", did you say that?

A. That is right.

Q. Did you say that?

A. If I remember right, I did.

Q. You would like to see Gertrude Baniszewski punished?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It is immaterial.

A. I think she needs something.

Q. You would say or do anything to see her found guilty here, wouldn't you?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. ERBECKER: Read the question to her.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Yes.

Q. And you would testify to anything against Gertrude Baniszewski, whether it were true or false, to see her punished and found guilty, wouldn't you?

A. Not unless it were true.

Q. You have been told a lot of stories about Gertrude Baniszewski, about what she has done or was supposed to have done to your sister before you testified?

MR. NEW: We object. It is immaterial.

THE COURT: Overruled. Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Yes.

Q. And these naturally biased and prejudiced you, inflamed you against Gertrude Baniszewski, hasn't it?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Has it?

A. Yes.

Q. And you have been told a lot of stories with reference to Gertrude Baniszewski that you were told to include in your testimony in order to allow you to get even with her, haven't you?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were told to testify to a lot of things that were not true, weren't you?

A. Yes.

Q. And who told you to tell these untrue things?

A. Untrue, everybody told me to tell the truth.

Q. Everybody told you to tell the truth. Have you told the truth all during this trial?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Now, Miss Likens, yesterday you testified a lot of things you personally did not know anything about, didn't you?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you testify to things today that you personally did not know anything about?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you testify to anything today you did not actually see yourself?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you ever talk to Mr. New what your testimony would be yesterday?

A. You mean whether it would be true?

Q. I did not hear you?

A. Whether I would be telling you the truth?

Q. What did he say to you and what did you say to him?

MR. BOWMAN: I will object to that.

THE COURT: Overruled. Sustained as to Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski. Overruled as to Gertrude Baniszewski. Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. All he said to me was to tell the truth and I told him the truth.

THE COURT: The jury will ignore the answer and the question in arriving at a verdict as to the defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard.

Q. Did you talk to Miss Wessner today as to what your testimony would be in this case?

A. Yes.

Q. And what did she tell you about what your testimony would be today?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained as to the two defendants you represent.

A. She just told me to tell the truth.

THE COURT: The jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict as to John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard.

Q. Was anything said to you by Mr. New or by Miss Wessner or yesterday or told concerning Stephanie Baniszewski?

A. No.

Q. Nothing? Was anything ever said to you since the death of your sister about - by Mr. New or Miss Wessner - about Stephanie Baniszewski?

A. Since the death occurred?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes.

Q. What was said?

A. They just wanted to know what she has done.

Q. You told them?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you at that time tell them just about the same testimony, with reference to Stephanie, you testified to in this trial?

A. What I testified about Stephanie?

Q. I will withdraw the question. When you talked about Stephanie to Mr. New and to Miss Wessner, did you tell them more about her than you testified to in this trial?

A. Yes.

Q. You did - you know then that a deal had been made with Stephanie in this case?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The jury will ignore the question in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. Was any reason given to you as to why your testimony was not as full and complete in this - to be in this trial as it was when you talked to them privately about Stephanie?

MR. NEW: The State objects to this and all similar questions for the reason it is not proper cross examination. It was not gone into on direct examination.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to this question. The jury will ignore the question in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. What portion of the conversation that you had with Mr. New and Miss Wessner with reference to Stephanie Baniszewski, was not related by you in this trial when you were examined by Miss Wessner in other words, what did you leave out?

MR. NEW: We object and would like to have him admonished.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, please retire to the jury room for a minute or two. During the recess, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion on this case till it is finally submitted to you. About a minute or two.

JURY EXCUSED.

THE COURT: I don't like to admonish or tell any lawyer how to try his case, but your persistency in asking this type of question that has nothing to do with this lawsuit is not good in criminal procedure or any trial procedure, whether it be criminal or civil, Mrs. Reporter, be sure and show the jury is not in the courtroom. I don't want to admonish you or tell you how to conduct your lawsuit. The line of questioning, I can't stop. I can stop questions that are not consistent with the trial in this case as to the defendants being tried now. What is being said or done with reference to another defendant - you know the rules of evidence - cannot be admitted in evidence against these people because of the hearsay rule, so let me say this to you - please, let's try to stay within the realm of the trial of this particular case and these particular defendants.

MR. ERBECKER: For the record, Your Honor, Gertrude Baniszewski will say this - there is evidence in this record concerning the direct examination of this witness with reference to Stephanie Baniszewski. Unless I am precluded or limited or denied cross examination on that part, Your Honor, I don't think I have stepped beyond the bounds of propriety.

THE COURT: I am not admonishing you. I am asking you to please stay within the bounds of cross examination with reference to these defendants.

MR. ERBECKER: Does that mean I am restricted from cross examining her?

THE COURT: I am not restricting you on anything. I am just asking you to stay within the realm of cross examination and try this lawsuit and not some other one, Mr. Bowman?

MR. BOWMAN: The jury has been excused. It was done immediately after Mr. New asked the court to admonish Mr. Erbecker. I am sure the jury assumed there was something he wanted to made a record on in the absence of the jury. I too would indulge in improper conduct because if I were cross examining this witness right now, I would ask, with respect to Stephanie Baniszewski, the same questions Mr. Erbecker is asking and of course I don't have the benefit of ruling, for the record, unless I ask myself. I want to make a record in this cause but I don't want to do it by prejudicing my clients in front of the jury as has been done by Mr. Erbecker.

THE COURT: The jury is not in the room.

MR. BOWMAN: I know the jury was excused as soon as Mr. New asked for the admonition. I don't want to be put in a situation where the jury would infer misconduct on my part. I want to make a record now with respect to the question and avoid asking it in the presence of the jury.

THE COURT: Mr. Bowman, your record is made. We will cross the bridges when we come to the bridges. Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: You may be seated, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, recesses and exclusion of the jury from the courtroom are necessary from time to time. Do not hold these recesses and exclusions from the courtroom against any of the defendants or attorneys or any of the parties. It is necessary things be done in absence. If you have to blame anybody, blame the judge. Next question, Mr. Erbecker.

MR. ERBECKER: At this time, Gertrude Baniszewski respectfully moves the court to withdraw submission of the cause and declare a mistrial because of the remarks of Mr. New in court, to admonish me, restrict me in cross examination of this witness.

THE COURT: Overruled. Next question please.

Q. Miss Likens, on direct examination did you testify with reference to Stephanie Baniszewski flipping your sister - is that the word you used?

MR. NEW: We object. The jury heard.

THE COURT: Overruled. This is cross examination. Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Yes.

Q. And just what did you see Stephanie Baniszewski do to your sister? And when and where?

A. She flipped her in the living room.

Q. When was that?

A. In these two weeks, the last two weeks before her death.

Q. How many times did that happen?

A. I was upstairs some of the times but I'd say five or six times.

Q. I think you also testified that Stephanie put your sister in some hot water, or words to that effect, did you testify to that?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Just what did you see Stephanie Baniszewski do with reference to your sister and when and where, with reference to hot water?

A. She helped Gertrude and Paula shove her in the water but Gertrude took her under the arms and Paula took her legs and Stephanie just helped push a little bit.

Q. Now, did you ever see Stephanie Baniszewski on any other occasion do anything else to your sister that you did not testify to?

A. Not that I did not testify.

Q. That you did not testify - in other words, that is only two things you saw Stephanie do to your sister?

A. No, she has done more than that.

Q. You did not testify to that?

A. I testified to what I seen her do.

Q. Did you testify yesterday to everything you saw Stephanie do?

A. That I can remember.

Q. Did you testify yesterday everything you remembered Stephanie did to your sister?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever talk to any police officer as to what your testimony would be in this case?

A. Not here lately.

Q. When did you ever, and where?

A. Well, at headquarters.

Q. At headquarters - who did you talk to and when?

A. About this case?

Q. Yes.

A. I talked to Mr. New.

Q. When was that?

A. I talked to him today, this afternoon.

Q. I am talking about headquarters, the first time you ever talked to anybody at headquarters, any police officer.

A. Sgt. Kaiser.

Q. Out at the house and at headquarters?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you testified about going in the kitchen and talking to a police officer. Was that Sgt. Kaiser?

A. I remember him being there. I think I did talk to him.

Q. Out at the house?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you stay at the house after you arrived there at 7:00 or 7:30?

A. I'd say I was there about a half hour, maybe longer.

Q. Then what happened to you, where did you go?

A. Headquarters.

Q. With whom?

A. I don't know the police officer's name.

Q. Did you talk to him on the way down?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he talk to you about this case, did he?

A. Yes.

Q. And how many police officers did you ride downtown with?

A. One.

Q. After you got downtown, where did you go?

A. They took me in a room.

Q. Who took you in a room, the police officer?

A. Yes.

Q. And were you alone in the room?

A. With the police officer, yes.

Q. How many?

A. There was about two and they brought in a police woman.

Q. And - not what the conversation was - but did they talk to you about Gertrude? Not what the conversation was - did they talk to you about Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did they talk to you about her?

A. I was there a good while.

Q. An hour, would you think?

A. An hour.

Q. Do you think longer than that?

A. We talked about all of them.

Q. I am talking about Gertrude. Now - not the conversation - but the conversation that was about Gertrude was about an hour?

A. Yes.

Q. Then where did you go - after you left police headquarters where did you go?

A. I went to my sister's, Diane Shoemaker, and stayed all night.

Q. Where was that?

A. In an apartment on West Washington Street, I think, I am pretty sure.

Q. What time would that be?

A. I'd say around 11:00 or 11:30, maybe later.

Q. You must have been at police headquarters more than an hour.

A. You said talking about Gertrude.

Q. You went with Diane Shoemaker where?

A. On West Washington Street.

Q. What time did you arrive there?

A. I'd say 11:00 or 11:30.

Q. Not what the conversation was - but did you talk about Gertrude there - not what it was?

A. At headquarters?

Q. No, Diane's house?

A. Oh, she wanted to know what all happened.

Q. Not the conversation - did you talk about Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did that conversation last?

A. I'd say about forty-five minutes and we went to bed.

Q. Then the next morning where did you go?

A. Headquarters.

Q. Who did you talk to at that time, if anybody?

A. I am pretty sure it was Sgt. Kaiser.

Q. Sgt. Kaiser - what time that morning?

A. He told us to be here around 9:00 or 9:30.

Q. Did you get here then?

A. Yes.

Q. What time?

A. 9:00 or 9:30.

Q. On the next day, the 27th, was it?

A. Yes.

Q. Not what the conversation was, but was it about Gertrude Baniszewski, yes or no?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did the conversation last?

A. Forty-five minutes to an hour.

Q. Forty-five minutes to an hour, was any lawyers there at that time, yes or no?

A. No.

Q. Was Mr. New there at that time?

A. No, I don't remember seeing him.

Q. When was the next time that - that was from 9:00 to 9:45 or 10:00 o'clock, then what did you do?

A. Talked to this policewoman.

Q. Policewoman - what is her name?

A. I don't know, she told me something about Juvenile Aid.

Q. Not what the conversation was in itself - was Gertrude Baniszewski mentioned in the conversation?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you talk to the policewoman?

A. Till about 11.00.

Q. Around and hour or an hour and fifteen minutes?

A. Yes.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. She had another man with her.

Q. She had what?

A. Had this other man with her - I don't know his name.

Q. Do you know his name?

A. No.

Q. Was it a police officer?

A. I imagine it was.

Q. What did you do then. Not the conversation, but what did you do?

A. We talked.

Q. The three of you talked?

A. Yes.

Q. Not the conversation, but was Gertrude's name mentioned?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did that conversation last?

A. Till about noon.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. Ate lunch.

Q. Did you talk to him again, yes or no?

A. I can't remember how long we stayed up there now.

Q. Was all this in the City-County Building, here, Miss Likens?

A. Yes.

Q. After that what did you do?

A. Well, I think my parents came up the next day.

Q. Following that?

A. I can't say for sure.

Q. Where did you spend the second night, not the night of the death, the day you was over at your sister's house - the next day, where did you spend the night?

A. I think my Grandma Grimes.

Q. Where is that?

A. 333 South Temple.

Q. What time did you arrive there that night?

A. Around 1:30 or 2:00 o'clock.

Q. In the afternoon?

A. Yes.

Q. Not the conversation itself, but was Gertrude's name mentioned between you and your grandmother - not what the conversation was?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did that conversation last?

A. I'd say a half hour.

Q. Then what did you do?

MR. NEW: We object, Your Honor, this could be hour by hour between October 27 and now.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It is irrelevant.

Q. When was the next time you talked to anybody about Gertrude Baniszewski and this case? Not the conversation, but the next time?

A. I talked to my parents.

Q. When was that?

A. The 27th or 28th of October.

Q. Where was that conversation at - not the conversation, but where was it?

A. Well, it was - I got in the car with them and drove over to Grandma's house.

Q. Not the conversation, but was Gertrude Baniszewski's name mentioned at that time?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. During all these conversations about Gertrude Baniszewski after the death of your sister, I will ask you if it is not a fact that they were all biased or prejudiced or unfriendly and hostile toward Gertrude - not the conversation but the manner or tone and method?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. It calls for a conclusion.

Q. How many different hospitals have you been in because of your affliction there, Miss Likens?

A. I have been at Riley Hospital six or seven times.

Q. When was that?

A. Well, when I was a little baby on up till now.

Q. Any other hospitals?

A. This was just for surgery.

Q. Any other hospital you have ever been in your life?

A. Yes.

Q. Where?

A. General.

Q. When was that?

A. I can't tell you the exact time, how many times.

Q. Riley six or seven times for surgery on your leg?

A. And checkups.

Q. Surgery or a checkup?

A. Surgery.

Q. General Hospital - what was that for?

A. I got sick and had a fever.

Q. When was that?

A. Well about a week end a half ago, maybe.

Q. A week and a half ago - the 10th of April?

A. Yes.

Q. April 10, 1966? When - what date was it when you were last out at General Hospital?

A. April 26 or 27, I can't say right off hand.

Q. 1966?

A. Yes.

Q. And how long were you out there then?

A. I went out in an ambulance and they sent me back home and then I went back out the next day because I had a fever. They gave me pills and medicine.

Q. How many times have you been to General Hospital for treatment or examination or anything?

A. I would not say over three or four times.

Q. Any other hospital, Miss Likens?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever been treated by any doctors last month?

A. This last month?

A. Yes, when I went to General Hospital.

Q. Did you ever go to General Hospital or Riley Hospital or see any doctors for any treatment observation, evaluation or anything other than your polio?

A. No.

Q. That is the only reason?

A. I went out there because I did not feel good. I did not go out there for my leg.

Q. I think you said you went to church or sunday school?

A. Yes.

Q. Which one?

A. I go to Pentecostal Church and Christian Church.

Q. Where is that?

A. Where I have been going is East 16th Christian.

Q. The other - Pentecostal Church is where?

A. I went to the Pentecostal Church in California.

Q. What was the pastor's name out there?

A. Rev. Roy, I think.

Q. The church you went to in town here - what was the name of it?

A. They just built the church, I don't know the name of it. There is a Pentecostal Church in Lebanon, Indiana.

Q. What was the name of it?

A. I don't know. I went with friends. It was a Pentecostal Church.

Q. How many times did you go there?

A. About four or five times.

Q. Lebanon, Indiana, when is that, Miss Likens?

A. I don't know, last month.

Q. In April, 1966?

A. No, wait a minute, the month before April.

Q. Would it be in March, do you think?

A. Yes, that is right.

Q. Now, how about Indianapolis here, did you go to church here any time?

A. Not here lately.

Q. Did you ever go to church here in Indianapolis?

A. Yes.

Q. What is the name of the church?

A. I went to the Christian Church on East 16th Street. I got baptized.

Q. When was that?

A. All five of us kids got baptized. I think it was around the 12th or 13th in 1963.

Q. Now, at the Likens house out on East New York Street, is that near another street intersection there?

A. You mean the Baniszewski house?

Q. I mean the Baniszewski house, excuse me.

A. What did you say about the house?

Q. Is it near a street intersection?

A. Denny Street.

Q. Where is Denny Street?

A. Catacorned from New York.

Q. In terms of feet, how far is the Likens house from that intersection, would you say, using the courtroom an a measuring distance?

A. From Denny to New York?

Q. From Denny to the Baniszewski house?

A. It is just around the corner.

Q. Is there a house next door to the Baniszewski house?

A. Yes.

Q. How far away?

A. Well, it was sort of like a double.

Q. From the time you first went in the Baniszewski house, till the day of your sister's death, was there people living in that double, the other side?

A. Yes, when we first started living with them. I believe there was. I did not pay much attention.

Q. Somebody lived there all the time from the time you first started living there till your sister's death?

A. Yes, there was always someone living there.

Q. Was there a house to the other side, to the west, or to the left hand side as you go toward the house - was there a house there?

A. Yes.

Q. Who lived there?

A. New neighbors had just moved in.

Q. There was always someone living there?

A. Not all the time, they had just moved in.

Q. Just moved?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. I'd say about the first - it was about the middle of October or a little later.

Q. The middle of October?

A. Or a little later.

Q. Then before the middle of October and from about July then to the middle of October, no one lived there, is that right?

A. That is right?

Q. Is there a house to the rear of the Baniszewski house?

A. To the back on it?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes.

Q. How far away is that from the Baniszewski house?

A. About -

Q. Using the end of the jury box there, would you say about that distance or closer?

A. Well, from the back yard that is about that distance.

Q. Is there windows in the Baniszewski house, was there at the time you lived there?

A. Yes.

Q. Windows on the back and front?

A. Yes.

Q. Sides?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there on New York Street? The house faces New York, doesn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. And is there any business places or anything across the street from the Baniszewski house on New York?

A. Yes.

Q. What is there?

A. A Shell Filling Station right across the street and on down the street there is a bakery and a little further is a Standard Food Market.

Q. Is there a church across the street?

A. There is a church across the street.

Q. Farther west on New York is there a doctor's office?

A. Yes, there is.

Q. Are there homes across the street?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there a funeral home across the street too?

A. Yes, on down.

Q. This park you testified you would go to all the time - where is that located?

A. Brookside and Ellenberger.

Q. Where is Brookside? Is that one you used to go to?

A. Yes.

Q. Where is Brookside Park from the Baniszewski home?

A. A long walk.

Q. How long did it take you to walk?

A. It took us approximately a half hour to forty-five minutes.

Q. How far is the other park?

A. It was not as far.

Q. What is the name of it?

A. Ellenberger.

Q. How long did it take you to walk there?

A. I'd say about a half hour.

Q. These places, the two parks you described where you went, did you go there in the daytime, would you?

A. Yes.

Q. Any time after 8:00 o'clock and any time before 7:00, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Both parks?

A. Yes.

Q. Would there be people in those parks?

A. Yes.

Q. More than one person there?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you talk to people over in those parks?

A. People we knew, some of them.

Q. You talked to them. On any of these occasions, was Gertrude Baniszewski along with you?

A. No.

Q. She never was with you at Brookside Park?

A. No.

Q. She never was with you at Ellenberger Park?

A. No.

Q. Is there a grocery store around the neighborhood?

A. By the park?

Q. No.

A. The Standard.

Q. Is that the one you used to go to?

A. Yes.

Q. Where is it with reference to the Baniszewski home?

A. A block or two blocks from her house.

Q. On New York Street?

A. Yes.

Q. And how many times, approximately, would you say you went to that Standard Grocery from the time you first started living there till the day your sister died?

A. All that time I was there?

Q. Yes.

A. It would be a lot of times. I would say about twenty, maybe fifteen or twenty times.

Q. How many times would you go a week?

MR. NEW: I don't think it is material or relevant.

THE COURT: Objection overruled. Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, it is 12:00. Let's go to lunch and come back at 2:00 o'clock today to the jury room. During the recess for lunch, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case of any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express and opinion the case till it is finally submitted to you. By agreement of counsel and with the consent of the defendant and the State given in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. During the recess, the Bailiff will take you to lunch. Be sure and return to the jury room at 2:00 o'clock today so we can start court at 2:00. Don't read any newspaper articles that may appear about this case and don't watch or listen to anything that may appear or be broadcast about the case as I said to you before, don't make up your mind about this case and don't talk among yourselves and don't form an opinion till the case is finally submitted to you. Jury and Alternate Jurors are excused till 2:00 o'clock today. Court will remain in session.

JURY EXCUSED.

THE COURT: Alright, Miss Court Reporter, if you people want to come in and listen to the case why don't you stay till it is over or don't come back. Please all be seated. This order you wanted me to sign, Mr. Erbecker, a couple of them have the name Jerome Relkin crossed off and two of them don't have it crossed off. Do you want this?

MR. ERBECKER: I want him. I thought I was going to have to accept another.

THE COURT: Insert him back, please, sir. Alright, Miss Court Reporter, show the jury admonished and ordered to return at 2:00 o'clock and the court, on order issued on oral motion heretofore filed on behalf of Gertrude Baniszewski requesting convenience for examination of certain persons, to-wit: Jerome Relkin, Dr. Mericle and Dr. Levi as follows, H.I. I have amended it the way you gave it to me. Instead of being specific what days and what times, to read at such times convenient to examining physicians or psychologists, when court is not in session with the trial of this case. That will make it more liberal for you. If it is not more liberal, I want to make it convenient for your witnesses to talk to her. Any convenient time when court in not in session. Give one to the prosecutor, sir. You see how the order reads, such times as convenient to such persons - I assume they are physicians, psychologists.

MR. ERBECKER: Two are, the third I did not designate what he is.

THE COURT: Do you want me to make it in the order?

MR. ERBECKER: The record is barren of any designation what he is. I think you had better. Layman?

THE COURT: Is the word "layman" O.K.

MR. ERBECKER: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: May I do that in ink?

MR. ERBECKER: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Show, Mr. New, a correction in the typing such times as convenient to the - insert "said examining physician, layman or psychologist". We are in recess till 2:00 P.M., Today.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

COURT ADJOURNED.

1:00 P.M. AND COURT RECONVENES.

THE COURT: Are you ready for the jury?

MR. BOWMAN: No, Your Honor, may I approach the bench?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. BOWMAN: Your Honor, there was an incident that occurred today in the presence of a juror that I thought I should report to the court and let everyone else know what happened in the event they attach significance to it. I was on the elevator in the City-County Building, the one that comes up to the second floor and Mr. Sewell Juror No. 2 was also on that elevator with a Mr. Jack Kammins, attorney, and Mr. John Hammond, attorney for Stephanie Baniszewski, and at that time Mr. Hammond made some remark to me, as well as I can remember to the effect that "Is Erbecker still cross examining" and "why don't you get a separate trial like I did and get out of there"? It was in a jovial manner and there was some laughter and I did not say anything till Mr. Sewell had left the elevator. I did remark to Mr. Hammond, "That was a juror, Mr. Sewell" and he said, "I would not know that".

THE COURT: Any motions?

MR. ERBECKER: There is a motion on my part, in view of the statement of Mr. Forrest Bowman, made here with reference to what transpired on the elevator, defendant Gertrude Baniszewski moves the court to withdraw submission of this cause and to declare a mistrial because of prejudice as a result of that remark, especially the remark of the separate trial of Stephanie Baniszewski and the implication to be drawn therefrom and in the alternative, if the court sees fit not to do that, the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski requests the court for a hearing on this to determine the extent of bias and prejudice resulting, if any.

THE COURT: Mr. Bowman, did you tell me every word you can remember of what transpired?

MR. BOWMAN: Yes, Your Honor, I stated everything I can recall.

THE COURT: Motion for mistrial overruled. Motion for hearing thereon overruled.

MR. ERBECKER: At this time, the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski respectfully moves the court to admonish this particular juror to disregard anything he may have heard in the elevator.

THE COURT: I will admonish the entire jury, not any particular juror.

MR. BOWMAN: If the court is going to give an admonition, I wonder if the court will state what it is. The juror was aware I was there.

THE COURT: It will be the regular admonition, to decide the case on the evidence heard in court and any statements they may hear should be ignored and not used, that kind of general one, O.K.?

MR. BOWMAN: O.K.

MR. ERBECKER: I move the court to particularly instruct the jury with reference to separate trials, since that was the remark made in the elevator.

THE COURT: I will admonish them. The record will save your objection and your motion. If my admonishment is not sufficient, you have got your record preserved. Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, as I have instructed you from time to time during the course of this trial and before you were selected as jurors, please, you are to determine the issues in this case from the evidence given you on the witness stand and from nothing else and from nowhere else. Any remarks or statements you may hear as you go through the courtroom or hallways or other places you are not to determine the case from what you hear outside - only what transpires in front of you in this courtroom. You will ignore statements and not hold them against anybody, not use them any way or consider them in arriving at a verdict in this case. The witness please.

JENNY FAY LIKENS , a witness called on behalf of the State of Indiana,
being duly sworn by the Court, testified as follows:

CROSS EXAMINATION RESUMED,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. State your name for the record?

A. Jenny Fay Likens.

Q. Are you the same Miss Likens who testified this morning?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you talk to anybody during the noon hour about your testimony this afternoon?

A. No, I have not.

Q. Did you ever make a written statement for the police or prosecuting attorney with reference to this case at all?

A. I made a statement.

Q. A written statement?

A. Yes.

Q. Who took it from you, what officer?

A. I don't know his name.

Q. Was it a uniform officer, was it?

A. If I remember right, I think it was.

Q. Did you see him any time during this trial?

A. No.

Q. Would you know his name if you heard it?

MR. NEW: We object. It is improper.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

MR. ERBECKER: I am trying to ascertain who it was.

THE COURT: Objection to that question is sustained.

Q. Was the statement taken in the City-County Building here or elsewhere?

A. In the City-County Building.

Q. Do you know about the time when, Miss Likens?

A. I think it was the 27th of October,

Q. And it was taken in the police room here in the City-County Building or some courtroom?

A. A police room.

Q. Can you identify anybody being present while this was taken?

A. I can't remember.

Q. You can't remember - and do you remember what you said - not mentioning what you said - do youremember what you said in the statement?

A. Some of it.

Q. Without mentioning the statement, was everything in the statement you signed there testified to in this trial, everything?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Were you ever shown any pictures of your sister after October 26, 1965?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. ERBECKER: I think I would like be heard on this, have the court give me a hearing on that. I think it is important.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to that particular question. Next question.

Q. Did you ever see a picture of your deceased sister?

A. Yes.

Q. When and where?

A. Here in the City-County Building.

Q. When?

A. In March sometime.

Q. March 1966, a couple of months ago, right?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the occasion of that?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. You mean why she showed it to me?

Q. Yes.

A. To prove it was my sister, I guess.

Q. Was there any conversation with whoever showed it to you with you at that time with reference to Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. Talk about Gertrude?

Q. Yes, that is what I mean.

A. Yes.

Q. At that time was anything suggested to you about her guilt or innocence?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Was there any conversation at that time when the when the picture was shown to you concerning the guilt or innocence?

MR. NEW: We object, that is outside the scope of direct.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. How many times were these pictures shown you?

A. Once.

Q. More than one picture or just one?

A. More than one.

Q. Was it necessary for you to see more than one in order to identify your sister?

A. No.

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled. Let the answer stay in.

Q. Was there conversation when they showed you more than one picture concerning Gertrude Baniszewski, was there?

A. Yes.

Q. And there was a lot of mean, harsh, bad things said about her was there?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. In your testimony yesterday and today, have you desired or attempted to shield Stephanie Baniszewski any way?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

MR. ERBECKER: I would like to have a hearing on that, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to that question.

MR. ERBECKER: We would make an Offer to Prove.

THE COURT: Next question, please, there is no Offer to Prove on cross examination as I understand the law, next question.

Q. Have you ever had a conversation with any law enforcement officer at any time concerning Stephanie Baniszewski in this case?

A. Talking about her, yes, I can't remember what we said. We said something about her, what she has done.

Q. Who is we?

A. The officer and me.

Q. When was this?

A. Well, mostly when it occurred.

Q. October 26?

A. Yes.

Q. Any other time, Miss Likens?

A. I don't believe so.

Q. Were you ever any time threatened, compelled or forced to remain silent, not tell anybody about these facts you are testified here to?

A. Yes.

Q. When and where?

A. When I would go to school and church and places.

Q. Who did this?

A. Gertrude.

Q. Gertrude, and what did she tell you?

A. When I would go to school she would say if any one asks you where Sylvia is, you better say she is in Juvenile.

Q. Is that all she told you?

A. That is where she wanted everyone to think she was at.

Q. Did she ever tell you that when you went any other place?

A. Church.

Q. What did she tell you?

A. The same thing.

Q. Telling you if anyone asked about Sylvia to say she was in Juvenile?

A. Yes.

Q. I suppose she told you that when you went other places?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that the entire nature and extent at her warning to you not to talk to anybody about it?

A. Yes.

Q. Then she never told you any time not to report anything as to what was going on around that house, did she?

A. Not to tell no one?

Q. Yes.

A. She did not want me to tell no one she was down in the basement.

MR. NEW: We move the answer be stricken as not responsive.

THE COURT: Overruled, the answer will stay in.

Q. My question is, Miss Likens, that in addition to what she said about you having people believe Sylvia was out to the Juvenile Center, did she ever tell you not to tell anybody anything about these things you testified about, did she?

A. No, she -

Q. Then you were perfectly free, if these things were true, you were perfectly free to go tell anybody you saw, were you?

A. Yes.

Q. And did Gertrude Baniszewski accompany you to the park when you went over there?

A. Go with me?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

Q. She did not accompany you to the grocery store to prevent you talking there?

A. She did not go to the grocery store.

Q. She did not prevent you talking to anybody at the grocery store?

A. No.

Q. When you went to church she did not prevent you telling anybody what was going on?

A. No, but the children did.

Q. I am talking about Gertrude, restrict it to Gertrude.

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Just ask questions, please.

Q. Did Gertrude Baniszewski ever at any time tell you not to go out and talk to anybody about anything?

A. She said if anybody asked were Sylvia is, tell her she is in Juvenile.

Q. Other than that?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Not that you know of. You could have told the neighbors about this if you wanted to, couldn't you?

MR. NEW: We object to what she could have done.

MR. ERBECKER: I think it is a pertinent question. It goes to her ability to talk.

THE COURT: Objection overruled. Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. I could have.

Q. But you did not, did you?

A. That did not mean I did want her to die though.

Q. You could?

MR. NEW: The State will object. She is not on trial. The purpose of the question is to implicate and insinuate.

THE COURT: Overruled. Answer will stay in.

MR. ERBECKER: I respectfully ask the court to admonish Mr. New.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. You could have talked to the neighbors about this, couldn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. But you did not?

A. No.

Q. And you could have talked to people out at the park if you wanted to, couldn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. But you did not, did you?

A. No.

Q. And you could have told any passersby or pedestrians on the street, couldn't you, if you wanted to?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. What was your question?

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Yes.

Q. But you did not, did you, Miss Likens?

A. No.

Q. You could have told anyone up and down the street if you wanted to?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. You are pressing the point.

Q. Were you present when the nurse came to the house that day?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you tell her about what was going on?

A. No.

Q. How many days did you go to school from the time you first arrived at the Baniszewski house till October 26, about how many?

A. Well. I went to school in September.

Q. And part of October?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you go every day during the week or only part time?

A. The most of the time I went five days a week.

Q. Did you have more than one teacher there at school?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have any class counselors there at school?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you tell them about this occurrence there at the house?

A. No.

Q. Were you prevented from doing so by anyone?

A. Yes.

Q. By whom?

A. Gertrude.

Q. Was she there at school?

A. No.

Q. I think you testified that shortly after you got there, about the second or third week, things began to change. Did you say that yesterday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What offenses or acts did your sister do or commit to cause Gertrude to do these things?

A. Well, I think Stephanie came home from school and said Sylvia called her mother a whore. I guess that is what all started it.

Q. How many times did that actually happen?

A. I could not tell you. I was not there.

Q. You don't know if that is what caused it, do you?

A. No, I don't.

Q. This is some more of the things told you about this case, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Lots of things have been told to you that you testified that you did not see or hear, hasn't there? Is that right?

A. What you mean is I am saying them just to be getting them in trouble or what?

Q. Read the last question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. I am going by what they told me Sylvia said that started it?

Q. That is right. In other words, you are testifying to a lot of things they told you that happened, aren't you?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Have you testified to anything here yesterday or today that you were told to testify to?

A. You mean someone told me to testify?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

Q. Everything you have testified to yesterday and today, you actually saw or heard - you were right there, is that right?

A. That is what I am testifying.

Q. But the story about your sister saying someone was a prostitute - you were not there when that happened, if it did happen, right?

A. No, I was not.

Q. But you testified to that here today and said that was told to you, is that right?

A. That is what I heard.

Q. A lot of things you testified to in this trial is what you heard?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Other than that one episode about the discussion about what your sister said, what else did your sister do or say after that that caused Gertrude to do these things, anything?

A. One time she said Sylvia called her a bitch. I don't know whether she did or not.

Q. Other than those two occurrences, if they happened or were said, was there anything else that Sylvia ever said or did that caused Gertrude to say this?

A. Well the time she found gym suit I was not with her.

Q. You were not with her, you don't know?

A. I don't know.

Q. Other than the two situations you described, plus the gym suit, what else did Sylvia do, if anything, to cause Gertrude to do these things?

A. She found a tennis shoe at the park.

Q. Anything else?

A. She said Sylvia was eating with my brother.

Q. Anything else?

A. Johnny came home one night - it was Sunday night, I can't think what he said, some girl came up to him and said Sylvia called one of his sisters a whore. That started some trouble.

Q. Anything else?

A. Richard said Sylvia was causing doctor bills.

Q. All these things you testified here yesterday and today that Gertrude done - there was not any cause or reason for it, was there?

A. What she said she said.

Q. I mean there was not any cause or reason for Gertrude to do any of these things?

A. If she said it, but I can't tell you if she did or not.

Q. Then basing your answer on those three or four episodes there, some of them did not happen in your presence - would you say Gertrude imagined a lot of things happened there and punished Sylvia for them?

MR. NEW: We object. It invades the province of the jury.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you ever see your sister Sylvia strike Gertrude?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever hear her use any indecent language to her?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever hear her threaten Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia ever do anything wrong to Gertrude?

A. Not that I know.

Q. All the times you were there you never saw your sister do anything wrong?

A. Besides what they said.

Q. Who said?

A. The kids would come home and say Sylvia said things.

Q. Then some of your testimony is based on what some kids came home and said?

MR. NEW: We object. It is repetitions.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Now, do you know of your own knowledge where Coy Hubbard lived, did you know that?

A. It was on -

Q. Do you, yes or no?

A. No.

Q. You have never been to his house?

A. Yes, I was trying to think of the address.

Q. Is it close by?

A. It is about six or seven blocks down.

Q. Were you ever there?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. He - I'd say about two times.

Q. Were you ever there at Richard Hobbs' house?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever go to the house next door there, on the other side of the double?

A. Where Gertrude lived?

Q. The other side of the double where Gertrude lived?

A. Yes, I went over there once.

Q. How many times?

A. Once.

Q. When was that?

A. The lady came over and said there was too much jarring around the house.

Q. When was that?

A. In October sometime.

Q. Would you say the first week in October?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever go to the people's house to the rear of the Baniszewski house?

A. No, not to the rear of it.

Q. Back of it?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever go to the people to the west, next door to the Baniszewski house?

A. I went to MacGuires.

Q. Where do they live?

A. Right next door and there is another house. It is a double.

Q. On New York Street?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you go to their house?

A. I'd say three weeks before this happened.

Q. About three weeks before it happened. That would be sometime in September?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you go there more than once?

A. No, I did not go -

Q. Did you go there more than once?

A. Yes.

Q. And at that time was Gertrude Baniszewski the topic of conversation there?

A. Once she was.

Q. The first time or after the first time?

A. The first time.

Q. Were you ever present there at Gertrude Baniszewski's house when any of the neighbors came in?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. Oh, September when school started.

Q. How many times in September did neighbors come in that house, if you know?

A. I just could not tell you exactly.

Q. Do you know the neighbor's names?

A. Some of them.

Q. What are their names?

A. Richard Hobbs, Coy Hubbard, Darlene MacGuire, Naomi MacGuire, Butchie MacGuire.

Q. Anybody else?

A. A little boy named Mike.

Q. Did you ever see any of the mothers or fathers of these children come in the house?

A. Yes.

Q. What are their names?

A. Mike's mother came.

Q. Mike who?

A. I don't know his last name.

Q. His mother came in there?

A. Yes.

Q. Sometime in September? Or was it October?

A. I believe it was in October.

Q. Did she have a conversation with Gertrude Baniszewski at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did she stay?

A. She stayed about an hour.

Q. Did any other adult come over there, neighbors, in October 1965?

A. Randy Lepper's mother came over.

Q. When was that?

A. September and October.

Q. How many occasions, how many times?

A. Just for a short visit, I can't remember. I'd say about -

Q. Ten or fifteen?

A. About seven or eight times, maybe more.

Q. How long would she stay?

A. Just about ten or fifteen minutes.

Q. That was September. Any time in October?

A. I can't remember.

Q. Any other grownups, adults from the neighbors that came over there September or October, 1965?

A. Darlene MacGuire's father came over.

Q. When was that?

A. He did not come in the house.

Q. When was that?

A. It was October.

Q. How long did he stay?

A. He just had a talk with Gertrude.

Q. Did any other grownups in the neighborhood come there?

A. That is all I can remember right now.

Q. Now, when was the first time that you ever saw Gertrude Baniszewski strike, beat, kick at or injure your sister any way whatsoever, when was the first time?

A. It was about two weeks after we started staying there.

Q. Around the latter part of July, the middle of July, do you think?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you do then?

A. She struck me too.

Q. What did you do, anything?

A. She took me in the bedroom and Sylvia in the other bedroom and said she had took care of us two bitches two weeks and did not get a damned dime for it.

Q. That was not true, was it?

A. No.

Q. A lot of times she imagined or fancied there was something wrong and she would punish you or your sister?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Was there ever any time that Gertrude Baniszewski punished your sister Sylvia when Sylvia had not done anything at all?

A. Well, Sylvia would tell her she did not do it and she would keep beating her till she got it out of her.

Q. Did you understand the question?

A. Did she ever punish Sylvia when she did not do nothing?

Q. When Sylvia did not do anything?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. I can't tell you exactly how many times it was.

Q. Was it every day?

A. Every other day, we'll say.

Q. For no reason at all?

A. Sylvia told her she did not do it.

Q. Do what?

A. Oh, like steal that gym suit or eat with my brother or something like that.

Q. It happened every other day you say?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever hear Gertrude Baniszewski accuse your sister Sylvia of doing something when Sylvia had not done it?

A. Yes.

Q. Yes. How many occasions, how many times?

A. Every other day.

Q. Every other day? Then Sylvia would get punished for something she did not do, would she?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the manner and fashion, the expression on Gertrude the first time she punished your sister, do you remember?

A. You mean how did she act?

Q. Yes.

A. Well, she would slap you in the face.

Q. When was the second time you saw Gertrude do something to your sister?

A. She hit her with a board.

Q. What did Gertrude say at that time? How did she act?

A. I don't know how she acted. She would just take the board and use it.

Q. Did she ever have any reason for doing that - Gertrude?

A. Well, like I told you, Sylvia would say she did not do something and she would keep at her, beat her till she said what she wanted her to say.

Q. You saw that?

A. Yes.

Q. To your knowledge, did any minister ever come to the Baniszewski house?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. I'd say in September.

Q. And did he come into the house?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you there?

A. Yes.

Q. Don't relate the conversation, but did he talk to Gertrude - not what he said - did he talk to her?

A. Yes.

Q. How long?

A. He would only stay fifteen or twenty minutes, maybe. He wanted to know why she did not come to church.

Q. Why - who did not come to church?

A. Gertrude.

Q. Now, Miss Likens, did you testify that Gertrude Baniszewski showed you a sore on Sylvia's head a short time before Sylvia died? Did you testify to that?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw a sore on her head? There is no question about that, is there?

A. No, there is not.

Q. Did you testify that Gertrude had put your sister head under the faucet when the water was real hot, did testify to that?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw that, did you?

A. Yes.

Q. How long was her head under the water, do you know?

A. I'd say about a half minute or a minute.

Q. Did you testify that Gertrude Baniszewski had put Sylvia in a tub of hot water one time?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw that?

A. Yes.

Q. And was the water hot? Did you know that of your own knowledge?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know it?

A. I put my hand in the water.

Q. Was it scalding?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw Gertrude Baniszewski put your sister in there?

A. Her and Paula.

Q. Now, how long did Gertrude keep her in that water?

A. When they first started putting her in there they left her in there four or five minutes.

Q. Was the water so hot it burned your hand?

A. Yes.

Q. No question about that, is there?

A. No.

Q. Now Miss Likens, I know it is very unpleasant for you to testify. Tell me again what time of day it was when this writing was done on your sister's stomach. Do you know what time of day it was?

A. I'd say it was around - I have to think a minute. I know it was on Saturday.

Q. About what time would it be?

A. Well, she sent me to the store to get lunch meat and bread. I guess it would be around noon.

Q. Who all was there at that time?

A. Gertrude, Richard Hobbs and John and Shirley Baniszewski and Marie Baniszewski.

Q. Was Gertrude there?

A. Yes, and I was there for a little while, and Sylvia.

Q. Now, is it a fact, you and Marie Baniszewski were out raking leaves and did not get home till around 7:00?

A. The day Sylvia died.

Q. I am talking about the time of the writing on your sister's stomach.

A. No.

Q. It would not be possible?

A. No, that is not the way it happened.

Q. You started living there around the 5th or 6th of July, was it?

A. Yes.

Q. You lived there till the day your sister died, the 26th of October?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there any time that you stayed away all night and slept any place else during the period from the 5th or 6th of July to the 26th of October?

A. When I was staying with Gertrude?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

Q. You were there all the time, were you?

A. Yes.

Q. And all the time you were home there, when you were not going to school or the park, you were home with Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. She was around you all the time then, was she?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she always act the same around you?

A. Yes.

Q. There was never any change in her temperament or conversation and her method and manner of speaking to you, was there?

A. At times there was.

Q. How would she act when she acted differently?

A. Well, she usually beat you in the face with her fist and Paula usually used the board on you and the police belt.

Q. Would Gertrude Baniszewski cry after she beat you or your sister?

A. Not that I ever seen.

Q. Did she ever laugh after she beat you or your sister?

A. She would laugh after she beat Sylvia, but I never seen her laugh after she beat me.

Q. Would she laugh when other things were done to Sylvia?

A. Most of the time.

Q. And would she laugh, did she laugh when she put her in hot water?

A. No, she just told her to stay down in there.

Q. Did she laugh when she beat her with that whip or that strap?

A. No, she had more of temper instead of laughing.

Q. Would she laugh most of the time when your sister was screaming or in pain?

A. She just would tell her to shut up.

Q. Would she ever laugh?

A. Most of the time.

Q. Most of the time? Would she seemingly enjoy your sister being in pain?

A. It seems like that.

Q. It seemed to you she enjoyed it?

A. Yes.

Q. Miss Likens, did you smoke around the house at that time?

A. When I first went there I smoked some.

Q. And you did not smoke after you stayed there a while?

A. No.

Q. How long did you smoke before you started living there at Gertrude Baniszewski's?

MR. NEW: We object. It is immaterial and completely outside the scope of direct.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you have social dates or have dates with boyfriends while you were living there?

A. No.

Q. Did you have before?

A. No.

Q. You never did go out with a man?

A. I have had boyfriends. I did not go on dates or anything.

Q. Did you accompany your mother and father out of the state a short time prior to living at the Baniszewskis'?

A. What do you mean - did I accompany?

Q. Were you along?

A. No.

Q. You did not go any where with them?

A. Not to the fairs.

Q. Did you go to California?

A. Yes.

Q. Who went along?

A. Sylvia, Mommy, Daddy, Danny, Benny and me.

Q. Were you all together all the time you were in California?

A. Yes.

Q. Your mother and father never did leave you there and go to another state?

A. No.

Q. They did not go to Las Vegas?

A. We went through Las Vegas.

Q. Your mother and father never did leave you in Los Angeles?

A. Daddy was gambling and us kids went to the show. There was nothing up there for kids.

Q. Did you ever see any domestic trouble in your home between your mother and father any time?

A. When in California?

Q. Any time?

A. Well, they had fusses and things - I mean talk harsh to each other sometimes.

Q. Did they always live together during your entire life?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember living at 1726 North Colorado Street, Indianapolis, Indiana?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know the name of the people who owned that place?

A. No, I don't

Q. Was the man named Fred, and his wife?

A. That sounds familiar.

Q. Was there any quarrel or disagreement between your father and this Fred that owns 1726 North Colorado Street?

MR. NEW: We object. It is outside the scope of direct.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Now, the last question, Miss Likens, after going through what you have gone through in this horrible experience and after this testimony you have seen in this courtroom and the pictures you have seen, including your seeing Gertrude laughing and having fun and laughing at Sylvia and enjoying Sylvia's pain and agony, have you ever formed an opinion as to whether or not Gertrude Baniszewski was sane or insane, yes or no, have you?

A. No.

Q. Have you formed an opinion now?

A. No.

Q. Do you think she is sane or insane?

MR. NEW: We object. She said she did not form an opinion.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Was that phase of it ever discussed with you?

A. About her being insane?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

Q. It never was discussed with you at all by anyone?

A. No. Not that I know of.

Q. Is it a fact, that you were talked to by some lawyer or some law enforcement officer with reference to that very question I asked you, was it?

A. Talked about - talked to some officers, is that what you are trying to say?

Q. Yes, or some investigator in this case or Mr. New or Miss Wessner. Anybody?

A. They said something about sane but they did not come out and say insane.

Q. They told you to testify she was sane?

A. All they told me was to tell the truth.

Q. When you say they mentioned sane or insane, what was said about that?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. When was this conversation with the attaches of the state concerning sanity or insanity, when?

MR. NEW: The State objects. She said she had no opinion.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. What did you say or do when you saw Gertrude Baniszewski laughing at your sister Sylvia and enjoying the pain and agony your sister was undergoing?

MR. NEW: We object. That is not in the testimony.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

MR. ERBECKER: No further questions.

THE COURT: Any further cross examination from Gertrude Baniszewski, Mr. Erbecker?

MR. ERBECKER: Not now, Your Honor, but I reserve the right.

THE COURT: Defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski may examine the witness.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. GEORGE RICE, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
PAULA MARIE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Your first name is Virginia, Miss Likens?

A. Yes.

Q. Your full name is Virginia Likens?

A. Yes.

Q. During the period between the 4th of July and the 26th day of October, 1965, when you were in residence at the Baniszewski house, how old were you?

A. Fifteen.

Q. And how many months?

A. I don't know offhand.

Q. Sorry, I did not hear your answer.

A. I don't know right offhand.

Q. Well, were you closer to your sixteenth birthday than you were fifteen?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you have your sixteenth birthday?

A. February 13.

Q. Were you in attendance in School 68 at this time?

A. Yes.

Q. Did I hear you say you were in the 8th grade at this time?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you in regular attendance at that time most of the time?

A. Yes.

Q. Starting in September?

A. Yes.

Q. You had by this time learned to read and write, had you not?

A. Yes.

Q. You learned a little about civics and government and law?

A. Yes.

Q. When you first moved into residence of Mrs. Baniszewski, can you recall the first day on which you met Paula Baniszewski?

A. Yes, I can now. Well, it was - I was home by myself and I went to the drugstore on the corner and was waiting for Sylvia. She did not show up. A neighbor lady downstairs - we lived in an apartment - asked me if I wanted to come down and watch T.V. and eat supper. I went down and at 9:00 or 9:30 Sylvia and Paula and Darlene MacGuire came down to the apartment and went upstairs and I did not hear them. When they came downstairs and opened up the screen door it slammed. I went to see who it was and it was Sylvia and Darlene MacGuire and Paula Baniszewski. Sylvia said, "Jenny, I have been looking for you". I said, "Where at"?, and she said they were going to Paula's house. I looked up at Paula. We went to her house and just stayed a little while.

Q. That is the first time you ever saw Paula?

A. Yes.

Q. You had never had occasion to meet her in school or church or any other place?

A. No.

Q. As a result of that meeting, did any friendly relationship develop between you and Paula?

A. Well, it was not too bad.

Q. You got along together and went to the park or other places?

A. Paula did not go to the park.

Q. Can you recall the first Paula did anything to to you that represented meanness or hostility toward you or your sister?

A. Well, when she whipped me with the board and the police belt and her fist.

Q. During the time that you lived in the Baniszewski household, it was for the most part in midsummer and early autumn, was it not?

A. Yes.

Q. Were the windows in the house open during this time?

A. In the dining room most of the time.

Q. Were you able to observe whether or not the windows were open in the adjacent house on North Denny Street?

A. What?

Q. Yes, or no, if you know?

A. Yes.

Q. The windows were open on occasion?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to hear conversation that took place in the adjacent house during this time?

A. What house?

Q. Any house near you?

A. No.

Q. You never heard voices from the adjoining house?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Now, you testified yesterday that you had occasion to witness the use of a paddle by Paula Baniszewski on your sister's bottom, is that correct?

A. That is right.

Q. I believe you testified the number was somewhere between ten and fifteen is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Where were you when this happened?

A. Well they would take both of us in the room most of time.

Q. Where were you?

A. In the bedroom.

Q. You and your sister and Paula were there together?

A. Yes.

Q. Was anyone else there at that time?

A. Shirley and Jimmy.

Q. Did you make an effort at that time to go to your sister's aid?

A. No.

Q. Except for Paula the other children there were younger than you, were they not?

A. No.

Q. About the same age?

A. About the same age.

Q. How do you know the number was ten or fifteen?

A. Well -

Q. Did you stand and count, for example?

A. Sometimes, yes.

Q. Did you count to yourself or count aloud?

A. Sometimes aloud and sometimes to myself.

Q. Was there a particular reason for you doing this?

A. Gertrude would say, "Take her upstairs and give and give her ten whacks or fifteen whacks".

MR. ERBECKER: I move the court to strike that. It is not responsive.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. NEW: I think it is.

Q. During the course of time, specifically sometime around the 15th day of September, can you recall any incident where Paula led your sister to the door of the dwelling and urged her to go away and stay away? By the back door?

A. I know a lot of times she would tell her to get out, but I don't remember her leaving.

Q. Did you ever hear Paula tell her to go away and stay away?

A. I knew she did not want her there.

Q. Did you hear her say this, or were you ever there when it was said?

A. I think I remember her saying, "Get out of my house".

Q. Did your sister in fact leave the house on that occasion or one like it?

A. I don't know if she left or went on the porch.

Q. Were you there - you heard it, did you not?

A. I have heard her say it.

Q. Your sister simply stayed in spite of the fact she was ordered to leave, is that your answer?

A. I guess it would be.

Q. I will ask you whether or not on or about the first of October there may not have been another incident of the same kind in which Paula requested your sister to leave the house by the back door and stay away for her own sake, for your sister's sake?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did your sister in fact leave on that occasion?

A. I can't remember if she left.

Q. Were the doors in this house locked at night, Miss Likens?

A. The front door was locked. I am pretty sure the back door was locked. I did not pay too much attention.

Q. Did you ever possess a key to the house in order to come and go?

A. No.

Q. How did you get in?

A. Usually somebody was there.

Q. Did you have to knock in order to gain admittance?

A. Knock and sometimes go on in.

Q. Sometimes the door was open?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you stated earlier that in your presence Paula Baniszewski had poured some salt on the wounds of your sister at about the level of her knees, I believe you spoke of?

A. Yes.

Q. Had you seen these wounds before the salt was poured on them?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you describe them in size and location to the jury here?

A. I don't understand.

Q. For example, were they scratches, bruises or burns or what?

A. Well, I did not see it one time.

Q. You did not see what, Miss Likens?

A. I did not see - she had a long scratch on her arm. I asked Gertrude how it happened and she said that John Baniszewski took a knife and scratched her arm.

Q. You admitted somewhat earlier you had seen salt thrown or poured by Paula Baniszewski on wounds on the knees of your sister. Am I correct?

A. Yes.

Q. In regard to the wounds on her knees, how many were there and what size were they?

A. Of what size were they? They were pretty big cuts.

Q. It was a cut - more than one cut?

A. I did not look real close.

Q. Where were you standing when this happened?

A. I was in the hallway and Sylvia was upstairs laying on the bed.

Q. Where was your sister when you were in the hallway?

A. On the bed.

Q. You were in the hallway?

A. Me and Stephanie were getting ready to go to the store.

Q. You were in the hallway?

A. Yes.

Q. Upstairs or down?

A. Yes, upstairs.

Q. Did you have a full view of the bedroom?

A. Yes.

Q. How many feet away were you from your sister when this happened? In terms of feet?

A. Seven or eight feet.

Q. Did you have a clear, unobstructed view of the room and everyone in it?

A. What I can remember was in there.

Q. Did you have a clear, unobstructed view of the room?

A. Yes.

Q. No one was in the doorway standing between your sister and you at that time?

A. No.

Q. You were seven or eight feet sway?

A. Yes.

Q. Was this the first time you had seen these injuries to your sister's knees?

A. Well, they had a rag over her knee.

Q. You may answer yes or no. Was this the first time you had seen these injuries?

A. No.

Q. You had seen them before this time?

A. Yes.

Q. How long before?

A. Three or four days before.

Q. What was your sister wearing on the occasion when the salt was said to have been poured on her injuries?

A. She was laying on the bed. I did not see her real good. I seen Paula pouring salt on her leg.

Q. What was she wearing at the time this happened?

MR. NEW: We object. I don't think it is material.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Shorts and a short sleeved blouse.

Q. She was wearing shorts so you could see?

A. Yes.

Q. Was anything other than salt applied at that time?

A. Not that I Seen.

Q. No water or other liquid, as far as you could tell?

A. No, I left to go to the store.

Q. It could have been salt used in a saline solution as far as you know?

A. It could have been. I could not say for sure.

Q. Did you ever learn in school, perhaps in a course of physiology or health education that salt has a medicinal effect on wounds?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. With reference to the incident of August 7, I believe you testified, Miss Likens, that a blow was struck by Paula Baniszewski that landed on a point of your sister's jaw, am I correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You were present when this happened?

A. No.

Q. You did not see it happen?

A. No.

Q. You did not see it happen?

A. I did not see it happen, but -

Q. So far as you personally know, the blow was not struck. You did not see it?

A. I seen her ear. It was all bruised.

Q. You did not see the blow struck, however?

A. No, I did not.

Q. So far as you are able to testify here, you can't tell the court or jury anything concerning that incident, yes or no?

A. No, I can't.

Q. Now, there was an incident that was concerned with the cutting of hair. I believe you testified yesterday that Paula Marie Baniszewski had occasion to take an instrument for cutting and cut your sister's hair, am I correct?

A. Yes, you are.

Q. Can you tell us what the instrument was that was used for this purpose?

A. Scissors.

Q. A pair of scissors?

A. Yes.

Q. In the course of cutting hair, did your sister sustain any injury other than to her dignity? Did the scissors cut her or injure her any way?

A. No, not that I seen.

Q. Was she held by anyone?

A. No, she was sitting in a chair.

Q. Were you sitting there at that time?

A. I was at the table.

Q. Did you make any effort to prevent this conduct on the part of Paula Baniszewski?

A. I told her I knew my father won't want her hair cut.

Q. I believe you testified earlier there were several visits paid by your parents during the course of time between the date you talked with and took residence with the Baniszewski's and the 26th day of October. Would you remind us, please, how many visits there were by your parents, one or both of them?

A. Eight or ten times.

Q. For what length of time was the average of these visits?

A. A half hour.

Q. And who was present at these visits usually?

A. Sylvia and me and Gertrude and sometimes Paula and Stephanie.

Q. Did your parents ever, on any of the occasions, take you and your sister out to lunch, the movie or any entertainment?

A. They took us to get a coke.

Q. On that occasion who went along?

A. Me and Sylvia.

Q. Together with your mother and father?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have occasion at that time, or your sister as far as you know, to report to your parents what you considered the misconduct of any member of the Baniszewski family?

MR. NEW: I object unless the time is fixed.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. I will ask you whether or not on the occasion you went out with your parents for the purpose of getting entertainment, the episode involving a coke, you were in a position to speak with your parents concerning the matter?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us the date, approximately?

A. It was in August, I believe.

Q. The month of August. This was the time when the relations between you and the Baniszewskis' and your sister had begun to become pretty rough, to use your own description?

A. Yes.

Q. Was anything said during the visit with your parents to your parents concerning the conduct of the Baniszewskis toward you?

A. Did we say anything to our parents?

Q. Did you complain to your parents?

A. We told them we were hungry.

Q. Did you tell your parents you had been beaten on occasion by one or more members of this family?

A. No, we did not.

Q. Did your sister, in your hearing, make any such statement to your parents?

A. Not that I heard.

Q. Was there any particular reason why? This mistreatment was under way and was of a serious nature and you had an opportunity alone with your parents. Is there any reason you would not mention something about this?

A. Well, I don't know why we did not say something but we did not.

Q. Was your sister bearing bruises, cuts or other wounds?

A. No, she did not have none.

Q. Were you present at the time your parents entered into an agreement with Mrs. Baniszewski for boarding you at that house?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you hear most of what was said on that occasion on or about the 4th of July, last year?

A. Yes.

Q. Was any statement made by either your father or mother concerning punishment for you or your sister if you did not behave?

A. My father told Gertrude - he said. "These girls need to be straightened out, they are getting hard to handle".

Q. What else did he say, if anything? Did he say you were to be beaten?

A. He did not say beaten.

Q. What words did he use?

A. I can't exactly say what he used.

Q. Now, Miss Likens, you have testified that at one point in the course of your life in the Baniszewski household you had stood in the corridor upstairs in the bathroom and seen your sister carried by Mrs. Baniszewski and Paula to a tub of water and put into the tub, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Precisely where were you standing when this happened?

A. Sometimes at the door, the bathroom door.

Q. You were upstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you in the bathroom before these three people entered it?

A. Sometimes I have.

Q. Was the tub at that time filled with water?

A. Yes.

Q. On this specific occasion, which you testified here, had you been in the bathroom then to inspect it prior to your sister being taken to that room?

A. Did I go in before they brought her in?

Q. Yes, did you go in the bathroom before your sister was taken in?

A. Yes, I went in there.

Q. You were in there. Had you taken a bath there?

A. I have taken a bath there.

Q. On that occasion, had you taken a bath in that bathroom on that occasion?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. Was there water in the tub on the occasion you were discussing now?

A. When they put her in the water?

Q. Was there water in the tub when you saw it on that occasion?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw this yourself?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you yourself make any test concerning the temperature of this water?

A. I put my hand in the water.

Q. Why did you do that?

A. To feel how hot it was.

Q. Why.

A. I don't know. I just wanted to see how hot it was.

Q. You were not yourself going to take a bath at that time?

A. No.

Q. Are you sure you put your hand in the water?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you do then?

A. Took my hand out of the water.

Q. You did not have a thermometer with you at that time for the purpose of testing?

A. No.

Q. Did you then leave the room?

A. I stayed in there a little while.

Q. Why did you remain in the bathroom?

MR. NEW: We object. It calls for a mental observation why she stayed.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Answer the question, if you can.

A. I don't know why I stayed in there.

Q. How long had the water been drawn in the tub, if you know, on this occasion?

A. Well, they got the tub half full.

Q. How long had the water been in the tub?

A. Oh, maybe a minute or two.

Q. How long?

A. A minute or two.

Q. Who drew the water?

A. I was downstairs and I can't remember who she told to go up and draw the water.

Q. You don't know who drew the water then, do you?

A. One time.

Q. Do you know who drew the water, Miss Likens?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Now then, do you know how long it was in the tub? You stated it was in a minute or two.

A. Well, someone said the water is ready. I can't place who said it.

Q. You were not there when it was drawn, were you?

A. No.

Q. You did not draw it, did you?

A. No.

Q. You don't know who did draw it, do you?

A. No.

Q. You actually don't know how long the water was in the tub, do you?

MR. NEW: We object. It in argumentative.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What did you do after you discovered the tub was full of hot water in your stop in the bathroom, Miss Likens?

A. I just stood in the bathroom.

Q. You stayed in the bathroom?

A. For a little while.

Q. Just standing there, how long?

A. Three or four minutes, maybe.

Q. During this time, were you standing there all by yourself?

A. No.

Q. Who else was there?

A. Sylvia, Gertrude. Paula, Stephanie, sometimes, and me.

Q. All these people saw you there at that time?

A. I was in there.

Q. Which hand did you put into the water?

MR. NEW: We object. It is immaterial.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. When you drew your hand out of the water, Miss Likens, did it have any effect shown as a result of putting it in the water?

A. No.

Q. None at all?

A. No.

Q. How long after you put your hand into the water was it before your sister was put into this tub of water?

A. About an half minute or so.

Q. Did she struggle against being put in the tub?

A. Yes, she struggled.

Q. Did you make an attempt to assist her to stay out of the tub of water?

A. What do you mean - stay out of it?

Q. Did you try to help her?

A. I told her it was hot.

Q. Did you make an effort to help by pulling or shoving, interposing yourself?

A. No.

Q. You did not touch any person seeking to put your sister into the water?

A. No.

Q. Was any effort made by any person to restrain you from giving such assistance?

A. No.

Q. You just stood there?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you there the whole length of time your sister was in the water?

A. Not all of the time. After I had been in there three or four minutes, I left.

Q. Did you at that time possess a wrist watch, Miss Likens?

A. A wrist watch?

Q. Yes, a watch on the wrist?

A. I don't know what you mean.

Q. Did you possess one at that time?

A. No.

Q. How did you manage to get the length of time then your sister was in the water?

A. I am just guessing.

Q. Could it have been more than three or four minutes?

A. It could have been.

Q. Could it have been less than three minutes?

A. It could have been.

Q. Was anything said by anyone in your presence at that time of the reason why your sister was immersed in the tub of water?

A. No.

Q. Were you able to notice whether or not, while your sister was being put in the tub, whether any of the water splashed either Mrs. Baniszewski or Paula Baniszewski?

A. Well, they did not tie her up all the time.

Q. Did any of the water splash on them?

A. When Sylvia kicked it would.

Q. The water did splash?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it necessary for Mrs. Baniszewski and Paula to get their hands also in this water in order to put your sister into the tub?

A. I -

Q. I think you could answer yes or no, if you know.

MR. NEW: I think the question is "whether it was necessary".

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. I will ask you whether or not -

THE COURT: Do you want to withdraw?

MR. RICE: I will withdraw the previous question.

Q. I will ask you whether or not you saw the hands of either Mrs. Baniszewski or Paula Baniszewski in the water in which your sister then was placed?

A. I remember a time when Paula would take her hands and splash water in Sylvia's face.

Q. Referring to the specific incident at that time when you were there, did you or did you not see the hands of Mrs. Baniszewski and Paula also go into the water where your sister then lay?

A. No, I did not. I did not.

Q. There was testimony given by you that on or about the 7th day of August, 1965, there was an altercation at which you were not present but concerning the result of which you were informed. Did you see Paula at some time after this alleged incident on the 7th day of August of 1965 when the blow was struck against your sister?

A. When she broke her wrist? I did not see that.

Q. You did not see the incident. Did you see Paula later that day?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you see, if anything, than you had seen previously on Paula?

A. She was holding her wrist and it was swollen.

Q. She was in pain?

A. She kept saying it was bothering her, it hurt her.

Q. Ultimately did she see a doctor?

A. She went to a doctor around - I can't tell what time.

Q. Was treatment given her to your knowledge?

A. I know she got a cast on it.

Q. How long did she wear this cast?

A. I'd say four to six weeks. I can't say for sure.

Q. At the time you saw her shortly after this incident, did she appear to be in pain, suffering from the injury to the wrist?

A. I don't know. She had something to hold her arm in.

Q. Was she able to use the arm?

A. She wiggled her fingers.

Q. Did she make use of it to rake leaves, eat food with, or the like?

A. I can't remember.

Q. Was it swollen?

A. Her hand was swollen, I guess.

Q. On the same day, did you have occasion to see your sister Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you happen to notice the point of her jaw where the blow allegedly was struck?

A. Well, all I know -

Q. Answer yes or no. Did you happen to notice it?

A. Yes.

Q. And was it swollen, so far as you know?

A. Yes, I guess it was.

Q. What evidence was there for that answer, what did you notice?

A. I noticed her ear was bruised.

Q. I did not speak of her ear. I spoke about the jaw. I asked if you noticed any swelling about the jaw?

MR. NEW: The State objects for the reason the testimony was she was not there when the punch was thrown. When she arrived her ear was swollen. The question assumes a fact not in evidence.

THE COURT: Overruled. Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Yes, her jaw was swollen. I noticed her ear more than I did her jaw.

Q. About how long were you in your sister's company that particular late afternoon or evening?

A. She was told to come downstairs by Gertrude.

Q. How long were you in her company in terms of hours, if you can tell us?

A. Well, she stayed down there a good while.

Q. Was she able to move about?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she able to talk?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she able to take food and drink?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she complain at any length concerning the blow to the jaw in your hearing?

A. Did she complain about her jaw? She said it felt like it was bruised.

Q. Were you aware at that time that Paula Baniszewski was approximately six months pregnant? Do you know what the word means?

A. Yes, I do. I was thinking about it but I could not say for sure.

Q. You, of your own knowledge, did not know?

A. No.

Q. Did you have some reason to think this might be so?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you hazard any guess what the approximate weight of Paula Baniszewski was at about this time?

A. She was getting heavier every day.

Q. There was testimony offered earlier, Miss Likens, concerning the fact that there was a hair pulling incident involving your sister and Paula Baniszewski - do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. I believe you testified to the effect that Paula Baniszewski seized your sister by the locks of her hair and propelled her away?

A. Yes.

Q. Was your sister sitting or standing when this happened?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. Which one, seated or standing?

A. She was seated.

Q. And what was the position of Paula Baniszewski at that time?

A. She was standing.

Q. Do you recall what made Paula do this?

A. Uh -

Q. You may answer yes or no?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell us, if you can, please.

A. Well, this was about the hamburger.

MR. NEW: I did not hear the answer.

A. Gertrude asked Sylvia if she had been with Danny - we were eating dinner - and Sylvia kept telling her "no" and Paula thought she was lying so she pulled her off the chair.

MR. RICE: I move that be stricken, and the answer the witness gave - "it was about a hamburger" be allowed and nothing else.

THE COURT: The answer was "it was a hamburger". Ladies and Gentlemen, we have been in session a while. Let's take a recess of five or ten minutes. Let's say a little longer, twenty minutes. During the recess, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion on the case till it is finally submitted to you. By agreement of parties and with the consent of defendant and State, given in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. Don't let anybody else talk to you and don't listen to any conversation in relation to this case. Don't read any newspaper articles or listen to anything or watch anything that may be broadcast about the case. Jury and Alternate Jurors excused.

JURY EXCUSED.

THE COURT: Mr. Rice, may we keep you a few seconds. The jury is out of the room. Let me hear the question and answer.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION AND ANSWER.

THE COURT: I think we will allow the entire question to be answered. I thought that was the way I heard it. Mr. Rice, I see the witness. She is slow answering. Sometimes I wonder if she understands the words you are using and so on. You have to take that into consideration in making a ruling on these questions. You have got to see how the witness testifies and talks. Since she is a slow talker, a slow answerer, I don't think she had the previous question answered completely.

MR. RICE: I also have an obligation to see she does not volunteer so much it prejudices my client. That was my chief objection.

THE COURT: I see her slowness. That I can see and hear, observing and listening. She has been a slow testifier throughout the trial. There are a lot of people that way, Mr. Rice. I think it was responsive to the question. I am going to let it stay in.

RECESS.

THE COURT:
Are you ready for the jury?

MR. ERBECKER:
The defendant Gertrude Baniszewski moves the court to reconsider the previous ruling, overruling and denying Motion for Psychiatric Examination of the State's witnesses, including the witness on the stand.

THE COURT:
Overruled. Motion to Reconsider Ruling overruled. The original ruling of the court stands. With reference to the last question and answer, the court will rule that the witness had not finished the answer and the entire answer will stay in. Come on, Witness, back here. Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: The entire answer given by the last witness will be permitted to remain in the evidence. Next question on cross examination by Mr. Rice.

Q. To refresh your recollection, Miss Likens, is it correct to say we were discussing the incident where Paula Baniszewski was said to have seized your sister's hair and pulled her out of her chair?

A. Yes.

Q. Had you had occasion to recall what date his was? Approximately?

A. It was September but I can't give you the date.

Q. September, this was after the incident in which Paula Baniszewski had sprained her wrist, was it not?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you have occasion in the space of time you lived in the Baniszewski household to notice whether - or not Paula Baniszewski was right handed or left handed?

A. I believe right handed.

Q. The injury to her wrist - which wrist was that, right or left?

A. I think it was right.

Q. On this occasion then when Paula Baniszewski seized your sister by her hair, she used which hand, so far as you can tell?

A. Her left hand.

Q. As a result of Paula Baniszewski seizing your sister by the hair, what happened to your sister?

A. She fell to the floor.

Q. How far from the chair did she fall?

A. Maybe four or five inches.

Q. Was she able to rise without assistance?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she do then?

A. Stand back up.

Q. Now, Miss Likens, you testified to having seen the incident in the bathroom involving the placement of your sister in a tub of water, did you not?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell us the approximate date of that incident.

A. It was in October.

Q. And this also was after the occasion when Paula Baniszewski had sprained her wrist and had occasion to put it in a cast, was it not?

A. Yes.

Q. So whatever assistance she gave must have been given how, if she gave assistance?

A. With her left hand.

Q. You had reference to an incidence involving throwing of a coke bottle by Paula Baniszewski at your sister. I think you told us it was thrown across the table, did you not say that?

A. Yes.

Q. What distance of space separated Paula Baniszewski from your sister at that time - in terms of feet, if you can tell us?

A. Seven or eight inches, I can't tell.

Q. Was the bottle thrown with the left hand, to your best recollection?

A. I believe it was.

Q. I think you testified the bottle in turn struck your sister on the hand?

A. Yes.

Q. With what result, if you know?

A. What it struck her with?

Q. Yes.

A. The coke bottle.

Q. The bottle hit your sister's hand, did it not?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she able to use her hand thereafter?

A. Yes, she used her hand.

Q. Now, you had reference to an episode involving a choking, did you not in your testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us the approximate date on which the choking took place?

A. It was in the last two weeks of October.

Q. This also was after the incident August 7 when Paula Baniszewski sprained her wrist and had it put in a cast, was it not?

A. She did not have her arm in a cast when she choked Sylvia.

Q. The cast had been removed about that time?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell us how long before it had been removed. Was it a matter of days, for example?

A. I can't say for sure. I can't remember right now.

Q. Now, I will ask you to reflect upon your testimony concerning the events of October 26, 1965. Am I correct in saying you were not in the house at the time that the police arrived?

A. No, I was not.

Q. How soon after the police arrived, if you know, did you reach the place?

MR. NEW: We object, if she did not know what time they got there.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Tell us approximately the hour on this date you did arrive at the house.

A. I think around 7:00 o'clock.

Q. At the hour of 7:00 o'clock, this date, was Paula Baniszewski on the premises when you arrived?

A. I did not notice her being there.

Q. You did not see her. Did you have occasion to talk with her sometime subsequent to 7:00 o'clock about the incident of your sister's death?

A. Yes.

Q. And were you - so far as you know - the first person to inform her of your sister's death?

A. You mean am I the one that told her?

Q. Yes.

A. No, Stephanie told her.

Q. You were present when the announcement was made?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall what Paula Baniszewski said on that occasion?

A. She just said, "You are kidding".

Q. Did she appear surprised?

A. Yes, her eyes got real big.

Q. She was dismayed?

A. Sort of shocked a little bit.

Q. She had not expected such a thing as far as you could ascertain?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Now, you and, Miss Likens, you and your sister were in school together sometime during the course of the past year - did you attend the same school?

A. Before we went to Gertrude's?

Q. Yes.

A. We went to 62 together.

Q. Were you in the same grade?

A. No, I was in the 7th and she was in the 8th.

Q. You say she was one grade ahead of you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to bring home from school a report card students get from the teachers every six or eight weeks?

A. Yes.

Q. What grades did you get?

A. C's and D's.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to see your sister's report card?

A. Yes.

Q. What sort of grades did she have?

A. They were average. She got - I don't remember her getting F's.

Q. Would you say her grades were better than yours or nor?

A. Well, she was pretty good drawer. That is right.

Q. Did she ever have honors, president or chairman of her class?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Did she ever receive honors, a scholarship or athletic award that was known to you?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Was she popular with the boys?

A. Well, she was - I mean she was not real crazy about the boys.

Q. Did she have dates with any frequency?

A. She had dates, yes.

Q. In the course of a week, how many dates, if I may use that term, would you say she would have?

MR. NEW: We object unless the time is fixed.

MR. RICE: I will withdraw the question and rephrase it.

Q. Say during the space of time from the spring semester of last year in school, how many dates would you say she would have with boys in the year 1965?

A. Well, she - we lived on New York - I can't exactly remember the address, she would go down to her boyfriend's house.

Q. You say her boyfriend's house - was there a regular boyfriend she would be with more than others?

A. Well, there were the twins.

Q. She was often in their company?

A. You know, she was pretty good friends with their sister.

Q. Did you also have a boyfriend?

A. No, I did not.

Q. In the early part of your testimony yesterday, Miss Likens, you gave us a great deal of very specific testimony concerning events, what was said and when in this trial. I recall a certain question was asked you concerning your schedule of school in terms of time to arrive and time to dismiss. What time did the school dismiss for the lunch hour?

A. If I remember, it was ten or fifteen to 12:00.

Q. How long had you been going to that school?

A. Since September.

Q. You had been in attendance approximately three or four weeks, maybe five weeks?

A. Yes.

Q. Did school always dismiss at the same hour for lunch period?

A. Yes.

Q. What about the time for dismissal in the afternoon? Do you recall the time school let out for the day?

A. 3:15.

Q. Was it always 3:15?

A. I think they changed it because R.C.A. was having trouble, I think it was 3:30 sometimes.

Q. During the time you and your sister were living in the Baniszewski household, did you have occasion to have any disputes with her?

A. What do you mean?

Q. Arguments, quarrels, strife?

A. Well, like that time I told you when I striked her.

Q. I don't mean a quarrel in which you were urged to do something that was not your own will. I mean you and your sister - was there any time and place that you got in any argument just between the two of you?

A. Not that I can remember.

MR. RICE: I have no further questions, Your Honor, at this time.

THE COURT: Defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. FORREST BOWMAN, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANTS,
COY HUBBARD AND JOHN STEPHAN BANISZEWSKI

Q. Miss Likens, where do you live now?

A. 1334 South Meridian Street, Lebanon, Indiana.

Q. With your parents?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you going to school now?

A. No, I quit school.

Q. Now, you said, I believe, your grandparents live in the 300 block Temple?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that close to the Baniszewski home?

A. It ain't too far from it.

Q. About how far is it?

A. Maybe about a mile.

Q. About a mile. Did you ever go there while you were living at the Baniszewski Home?

A. No.

Q. During the time that you were living at the Baniszewski home, did you ever see Anna Ruth Siscoe strike your sister?

A. Yes.

Q. During the time that you were living in the Baniszewski home, did you ever see Judy Darlene Duke strike your sister, or kick her?

A. No.

Q. During the time you were living in the Baniszewski home, did you ever see Michael John Monroe strike or kick your sister?

A. I never seen him but he told me that he was upstairs.

Q. You had probably better not say what he told you. You did not see it yourself, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see Randy Gordan Lepper strike and kick your sister?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you afraid of Gertrude Wright?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it your fear of Gertrude Wright that prevented you telling someone what was happening to your sister?

A. Yes.

MR. BOWMAN: Your Honor, with regard to the matter discussed this morning do I have my record with respect to the question?

THE COURT: You may ask a question, sir.

MR. BOWMAN: I am referring to the special question.

THE COURT: You may ask any question you wish, subject to objection.

Q. Did you ever see Stephanie Baniszewski hit your sister?

A. Yes.

Q. Are there occasions when Stephanie Baniszewski hit your sister that you have not related in your testimony?

A. No.

Q. Are you sure?

A. You mean has she striked her that I have not said?

Q. Yes.

A. Not that I can remember.

Q. If there were any events you did not relate, it is because you failed to remember them, is that correct?

A. That would it it.

Q. Who maintained discipline there at the home?

A. You mean who gave orders?

Q. Yes.

A. Well, Gertrude was head of the house, her and Paula.

Q. Now, would you say there was a time when there was only one spoon?

A. Yes, I think that is all there was.

Q. Was that condition usual or something special?

MR. NEW: We object. I don't think the question is intelligible.

THE COURT: Objection sustained for that reason only.

Q. Was there a time when they had more than one spoon?

A. I think they had at least two or three.

Q. You had no stove? They had no stove?

A. No.

Q. You do recall the conversation with a police woman, don't you?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And did you ever tell her that the reason you did not tell anyone about what was happening to your sister was you were afraid of Gertie, she would have beat you to death if you had told anyone?

A. I believe I told her that.

Q. Now, you related, told us about someone putting some soap powder on your sister, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did that?

A. Gertrude.

Q. Are you sure of that?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that when Johnny poured the hot water on her?

A. Well, I know she poured soap on her when she was in the basement - I mean in the bath tub. In the basement I did not see who poured it. I figured Gertrude did because she put soap on her when she was in the bath tub.

MR. ERBECKER: I ask that be stricken.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury and Alternate Jurors, you will ignore that statement in arriving at a verdict in the case of Gertrude Baniszewski.

Q. Did you say that your sister - when she was down in the basement - had a bowel movement?

A. Yes.

Q. Johnny and Stephanie put soap powder and water on her?

A. I said that - it has come back in my mind - I was not down there and seen them put it on. I am not sure.

Q. That just came to your mind right now?

A. Yes, but I did see John carry hot water down to the basement.

Q. You did say that your sister had just had a bowel movement?

A. Yes.

Q. In her clothing?

A. Yes.

Q. As a matter of fact, were they cleaning her up after Gertie told her she would have to clean herself up?

A. The last I seen her she was laying on the floor, the basement floor.

Q. You did say that Gertie hit her in the head with a wooden paddle?

A. Yes.

MR. BOWMAN: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Any cross examination from defendant Richard Hobbs, Mr. Nedeff, Please?

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. JAMES NEDEFF, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
RICHARD HOBBS

Q. Jenny, would you rather I call you Jenny or Miss Likens?

A. You can call me Jenny, if you want.

Q. Jenny, you remember in October you said that you saw Richard Hobbs there in the afternoon, do you remember what day of the week that was?

A. He come over pretty often after school and on Saturdays.

Q. He just came after school and on Saturdays?

A. That I can remember he did.

Q. Was he there pretty often?

A. Yes, pretty often.

Q. Do you remember testifying, when Miss Wessner was asking you questions, that you were there one afternoon and Gertrude Baniszewski started with a hot needle putting some on your sister's stomach?

A. Yes.

Q. Were those started with a hot needle?

A. Yes that is what I seen them using.

Q. You said those words "I am a prostitute and proud of it" were started with a hot needle?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you also said they were scratched. Now, those words, were they scratched on your sister's belly by Richard Hobbs or Gertrude Wright?

A. Gertrude started and Ricky finished it.

Q. Now, Ricky Hobbs, all he did was scratch the words on, did he?

A. He put the figure on.

Q. That was burned on with a hot I-screw? Those words he just scratched the remaining words?

A. With a hot needle.

Q. With a hot needle?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you see him heat the needle?

A. Shirley Baniszewski striked the matches.

Q. Who did?

A. Shirley Baniszewski.

Q. How did she do that?

A. She would strike the matches and hold them up to the needle till the needle got hot.

Q. Did Ricky hold the needle in his hand?

A. Yes.

Q. How long was the needle?

A. An inch and a half or two inches.

Q. Just an inch end a half, you say?

A. I did not examine it real good.

Q. Was it a sewing needle?

A. Yes, what I seen it was.

Q. How would he do this?

A. Well, take the needle and just - she got the I on there and he put - I imagine it was I'm.

Q. Gertrude started it with a needle and wrote I'm?

A. No, she started writing "I" and said "I am getting sick, here, Ricky, you take over".

Q. Tell us how Ricky did it.

A. He just took the needle and kept scraping on her stomach.

Q. Just scraping?

A. Yes.

Q. He never drew blood?

A. It was red - I guess where the blood dried up.

Q. Did the blood come?

A. It was like that when I got back from the store.

Q. You never saw him while you were there?

A. I seen it start.

Q. Did you see him draw any blood? - This was in the kitchen and you were there?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he draw any blood?

A. Yes, I guess he would.

Q. Can you be certain? You can't say you guess.

A. Yes, I am certain about it.

Q. Did he pierce her skin?

A. You mean spread it apart?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes.

Q. How did he do that?

A. Well, he had to bear down hard on the needle.

Q. Was the needle so hot he could not hold it?

A. He just burned one end of it.

Q. That was with matches, you say?

A. Yes.

Q. What did your sister do all this time?

A. She just stood there and held her teeth real tight and just shook her head.

Q. You saw all this?

A. Not all of it. I went to the store.

Q. How many times did you see Ricky Hobbs put the needle to her?

A. Well, I seen him put the "am" on there.

Q. Was that the "am" of "I am"?

A. Yes, and the "pr".

Q. Did you see any more?

A. That is all. I believe then I went to the store and when I came back he had it finished.

Q. Who told you to go the the grocery store?

A. Gertie.

Q. She told you to get what?

A. Lunch meat and a loaf of bread.

Q. How long were you gone?

A. I'd say about ten or fifteen minutes.

Q. Where did you go - to the Standard?

A. Standard.

Q. On New York Street?

A. Sherman Drive and New York.

Q. How far away is that?

A. About a block and a half or two blocks.

Q. You came back?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you come through the back door or the front door?

A. The back door.

Q. Was the door open?

A. It was shut.

Q. You just opened it and walked in?

A. Yes.

Q. You came in to the kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see anyone in the kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did you see?

A. Sylvia was standing by the basement door and Gertie was at the table and Paula -

Q. Sylvia was standing where?

A. By the basement door, upstairs.

Q. Who else was there?

A. Ricky, Shirley and Marie.

Q. Where was Ricky at?

A. He was standing up in the kitchen.

Q. He was doing what?

A. Standing up in the kitchen.

Q. Who else was there?

A. I was there, Shirley, Jimmy, the little boy, and John.

Q. When you came there in the kitchen, Sylvia was standing in the doorway of the basement?

A. Yes.

Q. How was she dressed then?

A. She did not have no clothes on.

Q. What happened after that?

A. And then they had the back door locked and Randy Lepper knocked on the door and they did not know it was Randy, I don't think.

Q. He lived across the street?

A. Yes.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Gertie told Sylvia to go down in the basement. Sylvia went down in the basement and Ricky and me - and I can't place, Marie or Shirley, one of the girls went down there. He took the iron poker and handed it to me and told me to burn her.

Q. Who did that?

A. Ricky.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Then I said, "No" and gave it back to him. I said, "I ain't going to burn her". Someone got a piece of paper out of the furnace and at first they tried with matches. They did not think it was hot enough and they got a piece of paper and burned it and got the poker hot and threw it in the sink in the basement.

Q. Who threw it in the sink?

A. Ricky.

Q. He never did burn her with the poker?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Where at?

A. Up above her stomach.

Q. What kind of mark did it leave?

A. It made a figure 3.

Q. Was that with the I-hook?

A. I am talking about the iron poker.

Q. That is where he made part of the 3?

A. Yes.

Q. Who made the other part?

A. He did it all.

Q. You testified yesterday to Miss Wessner that he put the bottom part of the 3 -

MR. NEW: We object. That was not the testimony.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The jury heard the evidence.

Q. Did you say yesterday that they started out to make an S?

A. Yes.

Q. And it turned out to be a 3?

A. Yes.

Q. When you said they, who did you mean?

A. I meant Ricky when I said they.

Q. Did you not mean anybody else?

A. No.

Q. Alright, who was down in the basement when that happened?

A. Me and Ricky and Sylvia and I just can't remember whether Shirley or Marie, one of the two.

Q. Did you know Ricky very well?

A. Well, we - when we lived at 3838 I seen him along the street once in a while. I did not pay him too much attention to him.

Q. 3838 East New York Street is the house next door to where Gertrude Baniszewski lived?

A. Not right next door, about two or three houses down.

Q. It is still on New York Street?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you know Ricky when you lived at 3838?

A. I knowed him but I was not very well acquainted with him.

Q. Did you know his name was Ricky?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you ever see Ricky do anything else to your sister?

A. That is all I seen him do.

Q. You never saw him hit her with a board or a stick?

A. No.

Q. Now, Jenny, did you ever see - after that particular afternoon - did you ever your sister - those words on her stomach?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, had somebody gone over those words with an ink pen?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was that?

A. Shirley Marie had an ink pen in her hand - I mean Shirley Baniszewski.

Q. What did she do with the fountain pen?

A. She just put ink in them.

Q. When was that done?

A. The same day, on Saturday.

Q. The same Saturday?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was that done at?

A. Up in the kitchen.

Q. You are living in Lebanon with your grandmother?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that your father's mother?

A. Yes.

Q. What is her name?

A. Mrs. Iva Martin.

Q. Her name is Iva Martin?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have some relatives that lived at 333 North Temple?

A. My mother's mother.

Q. Your mother's mother?

A. Yes.

Q. What was her name?

A. Matilda Grimes.

Q. All the time you were at the Baniszewski home did you ever go down there to visit?

A. No, but Sylvia and Stephanie did one time.

Q. Your grandmother Iva Martin and your grandparents on Temple both had phones?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever talk to them on the phone?

A. No.

Q. Now, did Ricky Hobbs ever do you any kind of harm?

A. No.

Q. Now all the time that you lived there with the Baniszewskis', from the first week of July till the last week in October, was there any occasion for a policeman to come to that door at 3850 East New York street?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me about it?

A. Well, in August a policeman came and said Gertie failed to pay her paper boy so he arrested her.

MR. ERBECKER: We are going to object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, you will ignore that answer in arriving at a verdict in this case as to the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski. Do not pay attention to same and do not consider that statement in arriving at a verdict as to Gertrude Baniszewski. The answer will be stricken from the record.

Q. Jenny, let me ask you this question. You said Gertrude Baniszewski treated you and Sylvia pretty good the first week or week and a half?

A. Yes.

Q. After the second week it started getting rough?

A. Yes, a little rough.

Q. So her treatment of you and your sister changed after that second week?

A. Yes.

Q. Which would be almost the 20th of August through the 26th of October, is that is right.

A. Yes, that is right.

Q. Now, was she mad at you and your sister because the support payments were not coming to her like they should?

MR. NEW: We object.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to defendant Gertrude Baniszewski. The question applies to Gertrude Baniszewski only. The entire objection is sustained.

Q. Now, did the police ever have another occasion to come to that address at 3850 East New York Street?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. I believe it was in August, September or August. I can't exactly remember.

Q. What was that about?

A. Well, a burglary.

Q. Was that in October the policeman came there because a man was at the door, inside?

A. Yes, it might have been in October. I can't remember exactly.

Q. Would you say it was in August or September or October?

A. It was October.

Q. Do you remember when in October?

A. No.

Q. You should remember that date in October. Was it a grown up man?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know his name?

A. No, I don't know him.

Q. How old was he?

A. He looked about - he was in his thirties.

Q. He was arrested there, was he?

A. Yes.

Q. You were there at the house?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was there?

A. Gertrude, Johnny, Paula, Stephanie, Jimmy, Shirley, Marie -

Q. Sylvia was there?

A. Sylvia -

Q. She was down in the basement?

A. Not when the police came. She was upstairs in the bedroom.

Q. Was she down in the basement?

A. No, she was not.

Q. How long were the police there? They called the wagon after the first policeman got there and some other policemen came?

A. Yes.

Q. The police were there an hour and a half?

A. I would say something like that.

Q. Would you say the police were there two hours?

A. No, I would say an hour and a half.

Q. Now, if you can remember the 26th of October, how many days before the 26th of October, did the police come and arrest a man and they were there for two and a half hours?

A. Two and a half hours?

Q. Or an hour and a half.

MR. NEW: We object. She said she did not know when it was. He is trying to fix the date. She said she did not know.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

Q. What date was that in October now? In relation to the day your sister died, was it one day, two days, three days or five days before your sister died?

A. I'll say four or five.

Q. It happened within four or five days? If I told you it happened October 21, would that be right?

A. That would be five days.

Q. Now that is October of last year?

A. Yes.

Q. You told Miss Wessner your sister had been kept in the basement for two weeks before she died?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she down there on the cold concrete when the police were there on the 21st or 22nd of October?

A. No, she was up in the bedroom.

Q. What is true then?

A. Well -

MR. NEW: We object, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The answer will go out. Objection sustained.

Q. Were you a witness for the police when that man was arrested?

MR. NEW: We object. It was not a matter gone into on direct examination. It is not material.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you go to court because of that incident?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did the police ever have another occasion to come to the door there at 3850 East New York Street in October, other than the one you said about the 21st or 22nd and the 26th?

A. Well, I don't remember any other time.

Q. Somebody made a complaint about screams coming from the house and the police came?

A. I don't remember that.

Q. You don't remember that? Do you remember the police coming there in September any time?

A. Let -

Q. Let me ask you this. Do you remember the time the police came and parked in front of the house for two hours?

A. You mean about when the man broke in the house?

Q. No, another time in October?

MR. NEW: We object to the question, Your Honor, it assumes.

MR. NEDEFF: Let me withdraw the question and I will rephrase another question.

Q. Do you ever remember seeing the police outside 3850 East New York Street?

A. I remember Marie Baniszewski got her wrist cut and the police came in an ambulance.

Q. When was that?

A. In October.

Q. Is it a fact that was about the third week in October or the second week?

A. I think it was about the second week.

Q. Let me ask you this. Do you remember testifying about you and your sister being at Brookside Park and you ran into your sister Diane Shoemaker?

A. We ran into her. We were not together.

Q. You met her?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the occasion of that meeting?

A. I remember - well. She was over there by the baby pool and we went over and talked to her.

Q. Who was she with?

A. A girl she was staying with, Linda.

Q. Who was with you?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Just you and Sylvia?

A. Yes, Stephanie was over there playing 4-square.

Q. That is the time you saw your sister Diane? She is nineteen?

A. Yes.

Q. Is she twenty now?

A. No, I don't know. I don't think she is twenty yet.

Q. You saw her there?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the time Sylvia said she was hungry?

A. I think I remember Sylvia asking Diane if she had any money to get something to eat.

Q. Did Diane buy her a sandwich?

A. This was not the time she bought her a sandwich.

Q. This is another time?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you talk to Diane?

A. I'd say ten or fifteen minutes and Stephanie came over.

Q. Did Diane take you and Sylvia and Stephanie home?

A. No, I don't remember her taking us home.

Q. When was that when you met her - your sister - over at the pool?

A. I believe it was in August.

Q. Now, you met her there again, you ran into her by accident, is that true, at Brookside Park?

A. I only seen her about once at Brookside. Sylvia met her once by herself. She was with Marie.

Q. Is that when you said she bought her a sandwich?

A. That is what Sylvia told me.

Q. At Brookside?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that, October?

A. About the first or second week in October, I'd say.

Q. Do you know where your sister was living?

A. Who, Diane?

Q. Do you know where she was living then in October?

A. When I seen her, I think she was living on Tuxedo Street.

Q. How far is Tuxedo from Denny street and Bradley Street.

A. I don't know, a pretty little distance.

Q. Did you know a policeman lived across the street from the Baniszewski house there on Denny? Did you ever see a man over there in uniform?

A. At the house?

Q. Across the street from the Baniszewski house?

A. If I did, I don't believe I know him.

Q. Did you ever see a policeman there in uniform that lived in the house across from the Baniszewskis'?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. Do you know Mr. Martin, who lived on Denny?

A. No, I don't think so.

Q. Jenny, let me ask you - did you ever rake leaves for Mr. Martin, on Denny two doors down?

A. I raked leaves. I don't remember who all I raked them for.

Q. Did you ever get pears from a tree there on Denny Street?

A. Yes, I remember that.

Q. Was that the home of a policeman?

A. I don't know if he was a police officer or not.

Q. Did you ever see him in a blue policeman's uniform?

A. I don't remember it.

Q. How far was that house where the pear tree was from the Baniszewski house? Was it as far as here to the wall?

A. Well, it was across the street and the pear tree was in the back yard.

Q. Yes. Let me ask you this then. Did you know that on that same side of the street lived a policeman who was a guard at Tech High School?

A. I did not know anything like that.

Q. How many times did Mrs. Baniszewski tell you and your sister to get out of that house?

A. Oh, I can't say for sure, six or seven times maybe.

Q. She opened the door and told you to go?

A. No, she would tell us to get our clothes and get ready.

Q. Did she ever tell you to get out of the house, you and your sister, that "you are making a nervous wreck out or me"?

A. That sounds like - I remember her saying something like that.

Q. Who did you get along the best with in the Baniszewski family?

A. Stephanie.

Q. Now, who was your best friend in that neighborhood, boy or girl? Was it one of the Monroes or MacGuires?

A. I have known the MacGuires about five years.

Q. Who was the best friend you had in that neighborhood?

A. I say Darlene MacGuire.

Q. Who was the best friend you had in that neighborhood, a grown up person, man or woman?

A. Darlene's mother.

Q. Who in that neighborhood would have done anything in the world if you had said one word?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you see the police drive around that neighborhood on New York Street, Denny Street, through the alley and back on New York Street?

MR. NEW: We object unless a time is fixed.

Q. Around October 20 and October 25 and 26th?

A. I believe a policeman arrested Gertie for failing to pay the paper boy.

MR. ERBECKER: I move the court to withdraw submission of the cause and declare a mistrial. The court previously admonished about this.

THE COURT: Overruled. Ladies and Gentlemen you will ignore the statement made by the witness in arriving at a verdict in this case. You will ignore the same and not pay attention to it. Don't use it in arriving at a verdict in this case as to the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski. The answer is ordered stricken from the record.

Q. Now, you said you visited Sylvia a lot of time in Ellenberger park?

A. Yes.

Q. Your older sister, Diane, worked in a Drive-in near Ellenberger Park, a Drive-in restaurant?

A. She worked at Al Greens.

Q. Did she ever work at a restaurant closer, within two or three blocks of Ellenberger Park?

A. If she did, I did not know it.

Q. You did not know it at that time?

A. No.

Q. Do you know it now?

A. I know she worked at Frisch's.

Q. Now, did you tell the police that Gertrude told you that her husband was in prison?

A. Yes.

MR. ERBECKER: Just a minute.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Let me caution the attorney for Richard Hobbs there are other defendants in this case. The question does not involve your client, please. Objection sustained. The jury will ignore that question in arriving at a verdict as to defendant Gertrude Baniszewski.

Q. Did you tell Miss Wessner yesterday that her husband was in the service in Germany?

A. When we first started staying there she told us he was in Germany and then after we had stayed there awhile she told us she got notice he was in prison.

Q. Now, those last two weeks, you said you had an opportunity to see policemen?

MR. NEW: We will object because she did not say that.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Now, Jenny, you saw your sister beaten. Why did you not go to a policeman?

MR. NEW: I am sorry. I can't hear you.

MR. NEDEFF: I will repeat it.

Q. Now, Jenny, you saw your sister being hit, beaten, and struck. Why did you not call the police?

A. Well, Gertie threatened me if I told anyone, I would get the same treatment Sylvia was getting.

Q. When you saw your sister hungry and begging for food why did you not tell your sister Diane?

A. I had not seen her for sometime.

Q. You saw her one time when your sister Diane had to buy her a sandwich?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw your Sister moaning and groaning in agony?

MR. NEW: We object. She did not testify to that.

THE COURT: Overruled. Your question, please.

Q. You saw your sister groaning and moaning and heard her. Why did you not call your grandmother or your grandfather? Did you know Lester Leap, the guard at Brookside Park?

A. I probably would know him if I seen him, but -

Q. Have you ever seen a guard over there, a heavyset man?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You talked to people there at Brookside Park, didn't you?

A. Yes.

MR. NEW: We object. This is completely repetitious.

THE COURT: Overruled. The answer is "yes". Next question.

Q. Why did you not tell them your sister was sick? Mrs. Baniszewski's former husband, John Baniszewski came to that house, didn't he?

A. Yes.

Q. He was a policeman at Beech Grove, wasn't he?

A. Yes.

Q. Why did you not tell him?

MR. NEW: We object unless the time is fixed.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Fix the time.

Q. Did Mr. Baniszewski come to that house in October?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. I think it was when he came. I can't remember.

Q. Jenny, you are not scared of me?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. He came there in October? Can you give me -

MR. NEW: We object. She said she could not remember.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did he come in October with a great big three foot dog?

A. Yes.

Q. He came October 22, didn't he, four days before your sister died?

A. Yes.

Q. He brought a great big police dog, didn't he, three foot tall?

A. Yes.

Q. Your sister was in agony, had told you she was dying, she was sick and she was in the basement. Why did you not tell him?

A. I told you why I did not tell.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, it is a little after 5:00. We will recess for this evening. By agreement of counsel and with the consent of State and defendants made in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. Don't read any newspaper articles that may appear about the case and don't watch anything or listen to anything that may broadcast about the case. Go to and from the courtroom to where ever you are going and do not permit anyone else to talk to you and don't talk among yourselves concerning this case or any subject connected therewith. If there is conversation near you or anywhere near you pertaining to the case, ignore same. Do not use same or consider same in arriving at a verdict in this case. Consider only the evidence you hear in court. Jury and Alternate Jurors are excused till 10:00 o'clock tomorrow morning.

JURY EXCUSED.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

COURT ADJOURNED.

MAY 6, 1966, AND THE TRIAL OF THIS CAUSE WAS RESUMED.

THE COURT: Everybody is here. Are you ready for the jury?

MR. ERBECKER: Defendant Gertrude Baniszewski is.

THE COURT: Is the State ready?

MR. NEW: The State is ready, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs may continue with cross examination of this witness.

MR. NEDEFF: No other questions, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Any other defendant with questions on cross examination, omitted questions?

MR. ERBECKER: We have some omitted questions.

THE COURT: Alright, defendant Gertrude Baniszewski may cross examine, omitted questions.

MR. ERBECKER: I yield cross examination to other counsel. I have some notes here this morning.

THE COURT: Any other defendant with omitted questions on cross examination, Mr. Rice?

CROSS EXAMINATION (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. GEORGE RICE, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
PAULA MARIE BANISZEWSKI

Q. In the house where you lived, at 3850 East New York Street, was there a medicine cabinet?

A. I don't remember of any.

Q. Can you tell the court and jury, whether or not there was any medication of any kind on the premises?

A. Well, they bought some alcohol.

Q. Was that the only item you are aware of the could possibly be used for the purpose of medication and medicine?

A. Yes. That is all I believe they had.

MR. RICE: No further questions.

THE COURT: May I ask, are there any other witnesses in the courtroom in this case? If so, hold up your hand. There are no hands. Any other omitted questions on cross by any of the other defendants? Alright, Mr. Erbecker, you may continue.

CROSS EXAMINATION (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Miss Likens, did you ever have a conversation with Gertrude Baniszewski with reference to your trip in California?

A. I told her some things we done down there.

Q. Did you ever tell Mrs. Baniszewski sometime in the month of July or August 1965 there at the premises of 3850 East New York Street that while you lived in California with your parents that your mother and father went to Las Vegas and left all you children alone in California for a while? Did you tell her that?

A. We were home by ourselves for about two days.

Q. At that time, during that time that you had conversation with Mrs. Baniszewski, did you tell her that Sylvia and you and Benny and Danny had a teenage party there in California, did you tell her that?

A. Yes, I think I did.

Q. And that - did you tell her that - at the time of the conversation with Mrs. Baniszewski did you tell her that it was a sex party, did you tell her that?

A. Well, I -

Q. Yes or no?

A. I did not tell her. Sylvia might have. I don't know.

Q. In your presence did anybody tell her?

A. We had a party. I don't know about sex.

Q. Did either you or Benny or Sylvia or Danny tell Mrs. Baniszewski at that time out there on New York Street that there was a sex party?

MR. NEW: I will object.

MR. BOWMAN: I think I will object. It is outside the scope of direct.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you ever have a conversation or was there a conversation in your presence with Mrs. Baniszewski with reference to what transpired one time at a party between the people you just mentioned?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled. She may answer the question yes or no.

A. Would you repeat the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Sylvia's boyfriend was over there. She might have told her something about that.

Q. Over where?

A. At our house in California.

Q. I see. Did you tell Gertrude Baniszewski that you told your mother and father about it when they got back? Did you tell Gertrude?

A. I told my parents. I don't remember telling her.

Q. You don't remember telling Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. I might have.

Q. She was not in California with you, was she?

A. Who?

Q. Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. No.

Q. Then someone must have told her about it?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. He is arguing with the witness.

Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Gertrude Baniszewski in the presence of Sylvia about your living at 109 Euclid Street, Indianapolis, Indiana?

A. We could have. I can't remember exactly what it was.

Q. Did you or didn't you?

A. I could have told her something.

Q. Do you remember what you told her?

A. No, I can't remember.

Q. Do you remember telling her this or this in substance, that men were staying there at that house and that they all stayed in one room, do you remember saying that in substance?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It is not in the scope of direct examination.

Q. Did you have a conversation with Gertrude Baniszewski at that time and place wherein you said this, or this in substance - Betty Likens sometimes posed as our sister when we would go out different places - do you remember saying that?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The jury will ignore that question in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. Miss Likens, did Gertrude Baniszewski ever loan any clothing to you or your sister?

A. No, not to me that I know of. Sylvia loaned her some clothes.

Q. Did you ever hear Gertrude Baniszewski use any profane language or indecent or filthy language?

A. Yes.

Q. More than one occasion?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see her drink any intoxicating liquor?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see any men at that house to see Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know who they were?

A. One man's name was Jack.

Q. Did he come over to see Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. More than once?

A. Yes.

Q. What time of day or night?

A. It was around noon, something like that - sometimes in the evening.

Q. Benny Likens is your brother, is he?

A. Yes.

Q. How old is he?

A. Sixteen.

Q. Did he ever come over there on 3850 East New York Street?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did he stay there?

A. Two or three nights.

Q. Did Benny Likens ever use any indecent language in your presence or in Gertrude's presence?

MR. NEW: We object. It is immaterial what Benny Likens might have done.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you ever on the occasion I mentioned - sometime in July or August, 1965 at the Baniszewskis ever tell Gertrude in substance - you told lies to your mother and father about you doing work?

MR. NEW: We object. It is outside the scope of direct examination.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I told lies about - what kind of work are you talking about?

THE COURT: Read the question, please.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. You mean at her house, doing work around her house?

Q. Any place?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. You never did say that to Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. You said to my parents.

Q. Did you tell her you lied to your parents?

A. When I done work I told them about it. I don't remember lying about it.

Q. You never did lie?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. You never told Gertrude Baniszewski that you told lies, is that right?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Were you present, Miss Likens, at the time your father had a conversation when you first started living with Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. At that time, I will ask you if your father did not say this, or this in substance to Gertrude Baniszewski - you will have to take care of these girls with a firm hand because they have gotten out of hand because their mother had let them do as they pleased, or words to that effect - did your father say that?

A. Yes.

Q. What did Mrs. Baniszewski say?

A. I think she said she would straighten us out.

Q. Now, this party in California you testified about. Was there - there was never any time there was any sexual activities at all, was there?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you ever go over to your sister's house, Diane Shoemaker's house, and talk to her about this?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. You never did talk about it? Did you ever go to her house any time in August, 1965?

A. No.

Q. Do you know where she lived then?

A. I don't remember where she lived.

Q. You did not see her in August, 1965?

A. Unless it was in the park.

Q. You saw her at the park?

A. In August sometime, I just can't remember the exact date.

Q. Did you have a conversation with her?

MR. NEW: We object. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Objection sustained for other than the reason assigned.

Q. Did you see Diane sometime in September, 1965?

A. I think I did but I just can't remember off hand.

Q. Did you see her more than once in September?

A. At the park?

Q. Any place?

A. Maybe twice.

Q. Did you ever talk to her about the activities around the house there?

A. No.

Q. You never did?

A. No.

Q. Did you know of your own knowledge anything about Diane's domestic life?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you know at that time a man named Robert Handlon?

A. That name don't sound too familiar.

Q. Did you ever appear in Municipal court with reference to an alleged burglary at your house during the period of from July '65 to October '65?

A. There was a burglary there.

Q. Was it a man named Robert Handlon they arrested?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you go to police court?

A. No.

Q. Did you talk to the police about it?

A. No.

Q. Did the police come to your house about it?

A. They came to 3850.

Q. How many times?

A. They arrested a man in front of the house.

Q. Were you there when they arrested the man?

A. I was upstairs looking out the window.

Q. Was it a man named Robert Handlon?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Were you subpoenaed by the State of Indiana on that case on October 20 or 21, 1965?

A. No.

Q. You were not?

A. No.

Q. In your knowledge, based on what you saw or heard, would you say it was a well known fact the entire neighborhood knew some unusual activities were going on in that house?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. ERBECKER: No further questions.

THE COURT: Any further questions on behalf of any defendants? The State have any re-direct?

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MISS WESSNER,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. Jenny, did you ever meet John Baniszewski, Sr.?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did he ever come in that house at 3850 East New York when you were there?

A. No.

Q. Yesterday when you testified John Baniszewski came there, who did you mean?

A. I meant Gertrude's son.

Q. You meant the defendant, John Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. You have never had conversation with John Baniszewski, Sr.?

A. No.

Q. What is the closest you ever were to him?

A. I seen him from up on the porch. We never was introduced.

Q. Did the Baniszewskis' visit him?

A. When he come over they would talk to him.

Q. Would he return in an automobile?

MR. ERBECKER: We object to this.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MISS WESSNER: That is all.

THE COURT: Any recross? Defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski, any recross?

MR. RICE: No recross.

THE COURT: Defendant John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard?

MR. BOWMAN: No.

THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs?

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. JAMES NEDEFF, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
RICHARD HOBBS

Q. On the day your sister died, you said something about Stephanie pouring what kind of soap?

A. It was Trend soap.

Q. Is that for the washer?

A. It is dish soap.

Q. Trend soap?

A. Trend.

Q. And did she do something else?

MR. NEW: We object, Your Honor, it is not proper cross.

THE COURT: Sustained. It is not proper.

MR. NEDEFF: No other questions.

THE COURT: May this witness leave the stand?

MR. NEW: Yes.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

THE COURT: Next witness, please.

MR. NEW: Police Officer Gentry.

THE COURT: Have you been sworn?

WITNESS: Yes, I has been.
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