Phyllis Vermillion - Next Door Neighbor

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Phyllis Vermillion - Next Door Neighbor

Postby admin » October 31st, 2010, 6:31 pm

THE COURT: Next witness, please. Have you been sworn in this case?


THE COURT: What is your name?

WITNESS: Phyllis Vermillion.


PHYLLIS VERMILLION , a witness called on behalf of the State of Indiana,
being duly sworn by the Court, testified as follows:


Q. State your name, please.

A. Phyllis Vermillion.

Q. Where do you live, Mrs. Vermillion?

A. 3848 East New York.

Q. That is in Marion county, Indiana?

A. Yes.

Q. How long have you lived there?

A. Since the last of August, about the 27th or 28th.

Q. Of what year?

A. Last August.

Q. 1965?

A. Yes.

Q. And where do you live with relation to 3850 East New York Street?

A. Well, right next door to it.

Q. Next door east?

A. No, it is west of Mrs. Wright's home.

Q. Who do you mean by Mrs. Wright?

A. Mrs. Baniszewski.

Q. Is she present?

A. Yes.

Q. Point her out, please.

A. This is her. (indicating defendant Gertrude Baniszewski)

Q. The lady in the white sweater?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she living there the entire time you lived at 3848 East New York?

A. Yes, she said she just moved in in July.

Q. Did you know Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did she live at 3850 East New York when you were living at your present address?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Where do you work, if you do, Mrs. Vermillion?

A. I work at R.C.A.

Q. Were you working there at this time?

A. Yes, I started to work the 19th of September.

Q. 1965?

A. Yes.

Q. And what hours did you work, when you worked at that time?

A. I went to work at a quarter of 4:00. I had to be on the line at a quarter of 4:00. I left the house at 3:00 and I worked till 11:15.

Q. Were you ever in the Baniszewski home last summer?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times were you there?

A. Twice.

Q. When was the first time?

A. September, right after school started.

Q. Did you see Sylvia Likens at that time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Who else was present?

A. Mrs. Wright, her baby, or Mrs. Baniszewski and her baby, Paula, Paula's boyfriend.

Q. Is Paula present?

A. Yes, that is her over there. (indicating defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski)

Q. The young lady with the green blouse?

A. Yes, I guess. I can't see it too well from here.

Q. Who else was present?

A. Coy Hubbard.

Q. Is Coy Hubbard present?

A. Yes.

Q. Point him out, please.

A. He is the one on the end. (indicating defendant Coy Hubbard)

Q. With the suit and white shirt?

A. Yes.

Q. Who else?

A. Well, Stephanie was there, Stephanie Baniszewski, there was some other children there but I did not know them.

Q. And what did you see or hear at this time?

MR. ERBECKER: We are going to object unless the time and place are established.

THE COURT: I think she said the time and place. Overruled.

Q. You may answer.

A. I did not hear you.

Q. What did you see or hear at this time?

A. Well, I saw Sylvia was having coffee with Mrs. Wright or Mrs. Baniszewski. I saw Sylvia and she had a black eye and -

Q. What part of the house was this in?

A. Well, it was supposed to be the front room or the dining area, I suppose, just right off the kitchen. It had a table and chair in it. The kitchen is right off that and Sylvia was sitting in the chair at the table and I had went to see Mrs. Baniszewski about keeping my children while I worked. I did not have a baby sitter. I knew I was going to work, that it was a matter of time when they were going to call me. I went over to her house and asked her about - if $10.00 would be enough to keep my children and she said it would. I asked Sylvia how did you get black eye. She did not say anything. Paula said she did that -

MR. BOWMAN: We object on behalf of John Stephan Baniszewski.

THE COURT: Sustained as to defendant John Stephan Baniszewski. It is hearsay. You will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict as to John Stephan Baniszewski, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury.

Q. Go on.

A. Anyway I asked Sylvia how she got her black eye and she did not answer. She hung her head and would not talk to me. Mrs. Wright sent her into the kitchen and she told her she said - "just get out of my sight. I don't want nothing to do with you. I just hate you". We proceeded to talk about Sylvia and she said she thought Sylvia was three months pregnant.

Q. Who said this?

A. Mrs. Wright, and she said - while she was in there Paula threw hot water on her and the child screamed.

Q. Who screamed?

A. Sylvia did.

Q. Where did she hit her with hot water, if she did?

A. On the right side of her face and I looked - you know to see what she was screaming about. I did not know what was going on then and Paula had a glass in her hand and it looked like steam in it to me. I assumed it was hot water. She started crying and Paula rubbed a whole bunch of yellow stuff all over her face.

Q. What was this, if you know?

A. I don't know, it looked like garbage.

Q. Did Paula say anything?

A. No, just bragging about how she beat her up and give her a black eye.

Q. Did Paula say how she got the black eye?

A. Paula said she gave it to her. Mrs. Wright said it took all of them to pull her off her. A boyfriend of Paula's was there at that time. Mrs. Wright said something about Paula being pregnant. Anyway, as I was saying before, she started screaming and crying and Mrs. Wright said, "Go up to your room, you are not going to get nothing". The only thing I could see they were having for breakfast was toast and jelly. Her baby was sitting in the high chair and she laid him down in the playpen and every little noise the baby would jump or scream so I did not pay too much attention to that right then.

THE COURT: May I stop you. Question and answer, please.

Q. Then what was done, if anything, what did you see?

A. Well, after that nothing. She sent her up to her room and told her she was not going to get nothing to eat and then -

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski say anything else to Sylvia at this time?

A. Yes, she told her - if you are pregnant, I am going to kill you - and so then she went - this was in the conversation we were having at the table drinking coffee, and she said she had not had a period for three months and she thought she was pregnant.

Q. Who said this?

A. Mrs. Wright and then we got to talking about school and everything and she said she made her quit school because she had stole a gym suit at school. Also, she had stole a watch from down the street and she was doing ironings, taking money for ironing.

MR. NEDEFF: We object to this narrative type testimony.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What was the rest of the conversation?

A. She said she was going to take money and pay back for the gym suit and watch she stole.

Q. Did Sylvia say anything at this time?

A. No, she acted like she was scared.

MR. NEDEFF: We object and ask the answer be stricken.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The last answer will go out and the jury will ignore the last part of the answer in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. Did Paula say anything else at this time?

THE COURT: Yes or no.

A. Other than she just beat her up.

MR. NEDEFF: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Yes or no.

A. No.

Q. Did Coy Hubbard say anything at that time?

A. No, they left and went somewhere as soon as I came in, Coy Hubbard and the other boys with him left.

Q. Did anything else happen at this time?

A. No, not then.

Q. Did Mrs. Wright ever keep your children for you, Mrs. Vermillion?

A. No.

Q. When was the next time you went to the Baniszewski home?

A. In October.

Q. And do you know when in October?

A. Well, it was the week of the 15th.

Q. And who was present this time?

A. Paula, Mrs. Wright, and I don't think Stephanie and them was there. I did not see them. I saw the baby.

Q. What did you see then?

A. Well, Sylvia had another black eye and she had a busted mouth where they had hit her in the mouth, she had a busted mouth.

THE COURT: Next question.

Q. What was said at this time, if anything, Mrs. Vermillion?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained as to John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard.

MR. RICE: We object to the question unless it is stated more specifically. I can't tell who is asking whom.

THE COURT: Sustained. The question is too vague.

Q. What, if anything, did Paula say at this time?

A. That she had beat her up again.

Q. Did she say anything else?

A. No, she just said she did not like her.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski say anything at this time?

A. Other than just not liking her.

Q. Have you had conversation, Mrs. Vermillion, with Mrs. Baniszewski concerning Sylvia, about which you have not testified?

A. Not that I can remember. I am kind of confused anyway.

Q. Directing your attention to October 25, 1965, did you work that day?

A. Yes.

Q. And what time did you go to work?

A. At 3:00 o'clock.

Q. And what time did you return?

A. Twenty five minutes till 1:00.

Q. Is that in the morning?

A. Tuesday morning.

Q. How much distance is there between your house and the Baniszewski home?

A. I don't know, about three, maybe four feet.

Q. When you returned that morning, would this be the morning of the 26th of October?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you see, if anything?

A. Well, I did not see anything but I heard an awful lot of racket.

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What did you hear, Mrs. Vermillion, if anything?

MR. BOWMAN: We object unless it has been stated who was present. It would be hearsay.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Was anyone with you at this time?

A. My husband.

Q. Did you hear a sound of any kind at this time?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is too vague.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What did you do then, Mrs. Vermillion?

A. Well, my husband and I always set down and eat before we go to bed. I heard scraping noises on cement that sounded like a shovel being drug over cement. I heard some noise like a shovel being scraped over cement.

MR. ERBECKER: I move that be stricken. There is no showing where the sound came from, no showing there was any connection of the sound with Gertrude Baniszewski.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BOWMAN: We object, Your Honor, to the characterization.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Where did the sound come from, Mrs. Vermillion?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. That is a conclusion.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. It was coming from Mrs. Wright's basement.

Q. What did you do then, if anything?

A. Well, like I said, we heard the noise and a lot of hollering and went outside to look and my husband said -

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

A. I went out on the front porch and I looked. I went out on the back porch and looked and did not see anything. I went back around in front and went out doors and down the steps. I could see a light on in Mrs. Baniszewski's basement. That is where the noises and hollering were coming from.

Q. Did you recognize the voice you heard?

A. Yes, Mrs. Wright.

Q. How long did this sound from scraping - that sounded like scraping last?

A. Twenty or twenty-five minutes.

Q. And then how long did the hollering last that you heard?

A. Till about 3:00 o'clock in the morning. I could not sleep and threatened to call the police.

Q. Did the scraping sound continue while you heard the voice hollering?

A. Yes.

Q. In all, how long did the scraping noise last?

A. Two hours, maybe two and a half hours.

MISS WESSNER: You may cross examine.

THE COURT: Defendant Gertrude Baniszewski may cross examined.


Q. How many children do you have, Mrs. Vermillion?

A. Two.

Q. You have lived there since August 27, 1965?

A. Yes, about that. We pay rent on the first and we had paid a deposit on the 27th.

Q. You live there now?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you ever had any arguments or quarrels with Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. Why no.

Q. Do you entertain any ill feeling or animosity toward her?

A. Why no.

Q. What?

A. No, I can't judge her.

Q. I beg your pardon?

A. I can't judge her.

Q. How many different times have you talked to her, do you think, since August 27 till October 26th?

A. Several times we talked on the front porch. I set on her front porch, I had coffee with her. She came to my home.

Q. She came to your home?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. When was that?

A. I don't remember. I guess sometime the last of September. My mother-in-law was there.

Q. You talked to the police about your evidence here, have you?

A. No, I have not seen any policeman.

Q. You talked to any investigator from the prosecutor's office?

A. Mr. New, Mr. Collins and the lady there.

Q. That is only three?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you first talk to them?

A. Well, I called Mr. New to ask him about this Coy Hubbard that was in the paper, because the paper said that was Paula's boyfriend.

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. When did you first talk to him?

A. I don't know. It has been a week or maybe two weeks ago.

Q. About two weeks ago?

THE COURT: Mrs. Vermillion, a little louder.

Q. I think you testified you went around to the back of your house?

A. No, I did not, I went down my steps and started to go around the back of the house but in back of my house was pretty dark and Mrs. Wright told me there were prowlers around there and I did not finish going around.

Q. You must have gone around the front?

A. I come out around the front and it is dark.

Q. You finally went around in front of the house?

A. Yes, of my house.

Q. On the morning of October 26th, around what time, 1:00 or 1:30?

A. About 1:00 o'clock.

Q. You husband was with you?

A. Yes, he looked at the back.

Q. When you went out the front door, did you go out the front door and get on the steps there?

A. Yes, I went down the steps and around the side of the house.

Q. Then you came back out in front, right?

A. No, I came back up and went in the house.

Q. You went in back?

A. No, around and back in front and back up my steps.

Q. That is when you observed the light in the basement?

A. Yes, it was on when we came in from work.

Q. Then is that light in the basement toward the front of the Baniszewski basement or the rear?

A. It is about middle ways.

Q. And was it - was the weather chilly at that time or cold or warm?

A. It was pretty cool.

Q. Did you have a coat on or anything?

A. No, I went right out and right back in.

Q. How long did you stay out there?

A. Just a few minutes. I looked around and could not see anything.

Q. When you first discovered hearing this sound, when was it?

A. Well, it started about the same time he got in the door.

Q. You were inside and you could hear it inside the house?

A. Yes, you can hear my next door neighbors talk in my house.

Q. You can hear your next door neighbors talk - you mean the Baniszewskis'?

A. No, the one in the double.

Q. You are to the west of the Baniszewskis'?

A. Yes, to the west.

Q. This light you saw was in the basement, in the middle of the basement, you saw?

A. It is middle ways of the house, yes.

Q. Is there a window right there?

A. She has two windows, I think, on her side.

Q. The basement window is right by the walk?

A. Yes.

Q. Would it be the window on the west side of the Baniszewski basement?

A. Yes.

Q. No question about that?

A. I guess.

Q. You saw the light, did you?

A. Her basement is right next to my dining room window.

Q. Is there a window on the west side of the Baniszewski basement?

A. Yes.

Q. You looked through the window and saw the light, did you?

A. Yes.

Q. And that is where you heard the sounds emanating, coming from?

A. I heard it before, that is why I went outside to find where it was coming from.

Q. When did you first hear it?

A. I did not pay too much attention. I don't know, ten or fifteen till 1:00. I could hear her hollering.

Q. Who hollering?

A. Mrs. Wright.

Q. What was she saying?

A. I don't know. It sounded like she was angry at somebody.

Q. You mean it was a belligerent tone?

A. I don't know what you mean by that.

Q. I don't know what you mean by it sounded like she was angry.

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It is arguing.

Q. What do you mean?

A. Her voice was raised. It sounded like she was screaming. I thought maybe she was screaming at one of the kids.

Q. That also came from the basement?

A. I guess.

Q. How did you determine that if you were in the house?

A. I could not. That is why I went outside.

Q. You went outside after you heard the noise?

A. Yes, I heard the noise and heard her voice and went outside to see what in the world was going on. Mrs. Wright told me prowlers were around there and my husband went out in back.

Q. Had there been prowlers around there?

A. Not really but she had a boy locked up for it.

Q. The police were there at the time?

A. Yes, they came.

Q. How long have you waked for R.C.A.

A. Since the 19th of September.

Q. 1965?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you live before you lived there?

A. 1613 South Randolph.

Q. And when is the first time you revealed this information to any law enforcement agency?

A. Well, when I called Mr. New on the phone.

Q. When was that?

A. I don't know. I will have to get the subpoena to see. I got it on Monday, April 25th because they gave it to me the same day I was here.

Q. When?

A. April 25.

Q. After you got the subpoena you called Mr. New, is that right?

A. No, I called Mr. New and he was not available to talk to.

Q. My question is, when was the first time you revealed this information you are talking about here to any law enforcement agency, Mr. New or otherwise?

A. Monday, the 25th.

Q. Monday, the 25th?

A. Yes, when I came downtown.

Q. Up to that time you had not talked to anybody, right?

A. Well, I had asked.

Q. Yes or no?

A. No.

Q. Now then, did you write them a letter or anything stating you were going to be a witness?

A. No.

Q. Then you first revealed to any law enforcement agency on April 25, after you got the subpoena, what you were going to testify to, is that right, yes or no?

A. I did not understand you.

MR. ERBECKER: Read the question.


A. Well, I don't know, I called him on the phone and while I was up here he gave me the subpoena.

Q. Oh, then you revealed to him?

A. I told him what I heard.

Q. Before then you got the subpoena?

A. Yes, he gave me the subpoena to come to court.

Q. You volunteered information on April 25?

A. Yes.

Q. Then you got the subpoena?

A. Yes, he gave it to me then.

Q. How long have you lived in Marion County?

A. All my life.

Q. How old are your children?

A. I have one six and one a year and a half.

Q. Six and a year and a half?

A. Yes.

Q. When was the last time you talked to Gertrude Baniszewski prior to October 26, 1965?

A. During the week of the 15th, one day that week.

Q. Now then, after you and your husband went inside that morning around - whenever it was - 2:00 or 3:00 o'clock, did you again talk to Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. No.

Q. You did not? Now from August 27, 1965 to October 26, 1965, other than what you have recounted here, did you see anything else transpiring over there at that house with reference to Gertrude Baniszewski only - nobody else?

A. I saw her whip Sylvia with a belt.

Q. When was that?

A. I don't know, sometime in September, I suppose.

Q. September, anything else?

A. No.

Q. How old are your children, did you say?

A. Six and a year and a half.

Q. Six, and you have no interest in the outcome of this trial, do you?

A. I don't know what you mean by interest.

Q. What prompted you to call the authorities on April 25, 1966, months after this occurred?

A. I told you I saw a picture in the paper and it was not the boy I saw and that was supposed to be Paula's boyfriend and it was not.

Q. That is the reason you called the prosecutor?

A. Yes, it looks like him but it is not him.

MR. ERBECKER: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Paula Marie Baniszewski may cross examine.


Q. We will have Mrs. Vermillion begin by spelling her last name.

A. v-e-r-m-i-l-l-i-o-n.

Q. Now, Mrs. Vermillion, if I understand you correctly you first had contact with the Baniszewski household when you were interested in getting someone to serve as a sitter for your children so you could go to work?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that about the first week in September last year?

A. Well, I had talked to her the last of August about it. I was not sure I could get one. I went to R.C.A. and passed all the tests and had to wait for them to call me to work. I talked to her again in September.

Q. Prior to September there was a previous meeting between you and Mrs. Baniszewski, is that correct?

A. I talked to her a lot.

Q. Where did that meeting take place?

A. Sometimes on the front porch, sometimes on her front porch, sometimes on my front porch.

Q. When was the first time you went in her house for the purpose of conducting this investigation?

A. The first of September I went to see if she would care for my children.

Q. Do you recall what time of day or night it was?

A. I don't know what day it was. The kids had gone to school. I had sent my daughter to school.

Q. Who was in the room when you came over about this arrangement?

A. In September it was Paula, Coy Hubbard, Stephanie, Sylvia and the baby.

Q. Were you introduced to these children at this time?

A. No, I knew them all by name other than Coy Hubbard. I did not know him too well.

Q. How would you be able to identify him individually?

A. I saw him going in and out of the house.

Q. How do you know?

A. Paula told me who he was.

Q. Who did she say he was?

A. She introduced this boyfriend of hers.

Q. You knew her personally before you came over that afternoon, could have identified her as one among many?

A. I would guess.

Q. On the afternoon this meeting took place, I believe you said Sylvia Likens was also present in the room where the discussion took place?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have an opportunity to be near enough to Sylvia Likens to be able to see her?

A. Yes, she was sitting in a chair about where she is sitting.

Q. Four or five feet you have indicated?

A. I imagine.

Q. At the time you saw her, how was she dressed?

A. She had on a dress and her hair was combed.

Q. Was there any mark or disfiguration on her features visible to you?

A. Yes, she had a black eye.

Q. That is the only mark you saw at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. Subsequent to this you made inquiry how the black eye was obtained, is that correct?

A. Well, I asked her how she got the black eye and she never answered.

Q. What did she do after that?

A. Mrs. Wright sent her in the kitchen.

Q. Did you remain in there drinking coffee?

A. Yes.

Q. When Sylvia went in the kitchen in response to the command from Mrs. Baniszewski, were you able to see her?

A. Yes.

Q. Did any one else in the group leave the room when Sylvia Likens left?

A. Paula and her boyfriend.

Q. When they left the room were you able to see all three of the group?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you see happen in the kitchen immediately after that?

A. Paula got a glass of water.

Q. Where did she get the glass?

A. Off the sink, I suppose, I could not see the sink. I could see all three of the kids.

Q. She walked to the sink directly with the glass in her hand?

A. Well, they went into the room and all I could see next was Paula had the glass of water and threw it on Sylvia.

Q. Now, was the sink from which the water was drawn seen by you?

A. No, I could not see it.

Q. Did you subsequently go in the kitchen and see whether or not it had more than one faucet on it?

A. No, I did not.

Q. You did not, in fact, see the source from which the water was drawn, did you?

A. No.

Q. You did see, however, there was what seemed to be water in the glass carried by Paula Baniszewski?

A. Yes and the glass was all steamed up like it had just come of the dish drainer.

Q. Would it not also be possible if it was removed from the refrigerator, in your experience as a housewife?

A. I don't know?

Q. After it was taken from the refrigerator where it was left to cool?

A. It could have.

Q. Now the next thing you observed was Paula Baniszewski approach Sylvia Likens with a glass of water, or what seemed like water in her hand?

A. Yes.

Q. Was the glass full?

A. About three-fourths full.

Q. About how far were you from this scene at the time you first saw this?

A. I don't know, the same distance, it is not too far in the kitchen there.

Q. While you were looking there, were you doing anything besides observe what went on in the kitchen?

A. I was talking to Mrs. Wright.

Q. Where was she standing?

A. She was sitting at the table.

Q. Sitting in front of you or to the side?

A. The side towards the kitchen door.

Q. Sitting how?

A. At the side towards the kitchen door.

Q. By looking at Mrs. Wright, directing some of your attention to her, could you see what went on in the kitchen?

A. Yes, I could.

Q. Now then, how far was Paula from Sylvia when the water thrown?

A. Not too far, maybe a foot or a foot and a half when she up and threw it on her.

Q. As a result of her throwing the water, what reaction did you see from Sylvia Likens?

A. She screamed and held her face, grabbed her face like that.

Q. What did you do?

A. I did not do nothing. I did not know what to do.

Q. Did anyone procure a towel or cloth for the purpose of wiping the girl's face?

A. No.

Q. Did she wipe her own face?

A. No.

Q. What did she do?

A. Sit and cried.

Q. She remained sitting or standing in the kitchen?

A. Sitting.

Q. How long did this go on?

A. Just a few minutes. Paula took and rubbed something all over her face and Mrs. Wright got aggravated because she was squalling and told her to go upstairs, she was not going to get any breakfast.

Q. With this, Sylvia left the room?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she walk by herself?

A. Yes.

Q. No one assisted her?

A. No, she went right through the dining room and went upstairs.

Q. Did she say anything to you in passing?

A. No sir.

Q. Did you say anything to her?

A. No, I got up and left.

Q. As she passed by in spite of the material on her face, were you able to see if there was any result coming from throwing of the water?

A. Her face looked like - it was pink like somebody slapped her.

Q. Did you have occasion to handle the glass that contained the water, subsequently?

A. No.

Q. Now, you stated also you returned to the household on or about the 15th of October?

A. That week.

Q. At that time, you had conversation with Paula Baniszewski concerning the fact Paula allegedly told you she had beaten Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes, Paula said that.

Q. Paula told you this freely and voluntarily?

A. Yes.

Q. Was anyone else present when this was done?

A. Mrs. Wright.

Q. Did you say anything in response?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Was any description of the alleged beating given to you in any detail or just a statement, "I beat her"?

A. She - Paula said that she beat her up because she hurt her little baby brother.

Q. That is what Paula claimed to be the provocation for beating Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you, on or about that time, have occasion to see Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes, she had a black eye and a cut mouth.

Q. Otherwise, did she look disabled or injured?

A. No, she looked like she did not care whether she lived or died.

MR. RICE: I move that be stricken. It is not responsive to the question.

THE COURT: Overruled on cross examination.

A. I said "Hi" to her.

Q. She was walking about?

A. No, she was still sitting in the chair.

Q. And was that the last time you saw her, on this occasion?

A. Yes, Mrs. Wright said she was going home the following Tuesday and I thought she had.

MR. RICE: No further questions.

THE COURT: Defendant Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski may cross examine.


Q. The night you heard the sound which sounded like a shovel scraping on concrete, this noise you say you thought you heard coming from the basement?

A. Yes, I know it was coming from the basement, that is all the other sounds there were.

Q. There was another sound at that time?

A. No scraping first and Mrs. Wright hollered.

Q. The scraping stopped?

A. No, it kept on and she kept on hollering.

Q. The hollering came from the basement?

A. Yes.

Q. At the same time as the scraping?

A. Yes, it kept up to about 3:00 in the morning.

Q. The hollering and scraping kept up till about 3:00 in the morning?

A. Off and on, the scraping kept on and the hollering - she would pause and then start again.

Q. Was there someone else around there that looked like Coy Hubbard?

A. Well, Paula's boyfriend.

Q. He looked like Coy Hubbard?

A. Yes, but he is a boy bigger than him.

MR. BOWMAN: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs may cross examine.


Q. Mrs. Vermillion, you have lived there at 3838 East New York Street since August last year?

A. 3848, yes.

Q. Since August last year?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you live before then?

A. 1613 South Randolph.

Q. How long did you live at that address on South Randolph?

A. About a year and a half.

Q. Where does your husband work?

A. R.C A.

Q. What is his first name?

A. Raymond.

Q. Now, is your house painted the same color as the Baniszewski house?

A. Yes, all the doubles are painted the same.

Q. They are all owned by the same parties?

A. Yes.

Q. Who owns that house of yours and the Baniszewskis?

A. Spann and Rassmann.

Q. You rent from Spann and Rassmann?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Now, your house is directly west of the Baniszewski house?

A. Yes.

Q. Your dining room overlooks their kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. You can look out your dining room window in the Baniszewski kitchen and see the whole kitchen?

A. Yes, and you can see the basement door, too.

Q. You can see the basement door?

A. I guess that is the basement door, there is a door on the other side of the wall.

Q. You can also see the basement window?

A. No, not from the dining room. You have to get up on the window seat and look down.

Q. You went out on the sidewalk - you can look down in the basement and see the furnace and trash cans and everything?

A. You could if you got down and looked. I am not going to get down and peek in her windows.

Q. All you have to do is stoop down?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. How many basement - how much basement can you see standing on the sidewalk between your house and the Baniszewski house?

A. You can not see in her basement until you stoop down, but you can see the light is on because it shines against my house.

Q. You can almost reach out of your dining room window into the kitchen of the Baniszewski house?

A. It is not that close.

Q. It is pretty close?

A. Yes.

Q. Right across the street from where you live on the southwest corner of New York and Denny there is a sign that advertises baby sitting services?

A. Not that I know of there is not. On the southwest corner?

Q. Across the street from where you live?

A. There is a church right across the street.

Q. A house in the next block has a sign out - baby sitting services?

A. I don't really know, I never paid that much attention to it.

Q. One last question. You said that you threatened to call the police. Did you mean you were threatened to call the police to whom?

A. My husband.

Q. You told your husband that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever call the police?

A. No, not till I found out Mrs. Wright had a boy locked up and he did not do it. I called down and talked to Sgt. Kaiser.

Q. What boy was that?

A. She had a boy locked up for breaking and entering and he did not do it.

Q. How do you know he did not do it?

A. Because we were sitting right in the car and saw it.

Q. On New York Street?

A. Yes, we got home from work and the boy was not there and we went to the White Castle and came back and we were just coming around the northeast side of the building off Denny and he was arguing with her on the front porch. She told the police he tried to get in her house and he did not do it.

Q. You said you saw Paula Marie's boyfriend there?

A. That is who she said it was, her boyfriend.

Q. Was he a neighbor boy?

A. I don't know. I seen him over there and did not know who he was till I went over in September. She said that was her boyfriend.

MR. NEDEFF: No other questions.

THE COURT: Any other questions on cross examination?

MR. ERBECKER: An omitted question.


Q. Mrs. Vermillion, in response to Mr. Nedeff's question, did you say that Mrs. Baniszewski argued with the police on her front porch?

A. No, she was arguing with this boy she had locked up.

Q. Do you know the boy's name?

A. No, I never did know who he was. He lived next door to her in the other half of the double, in her house.

Q. He lived next door?

A. He had and had moved out.

Q. When was this she argued with him?

A. I don't really know, maybe September.

Q. In September?

A. I don't know. I would have to guess. I called him and they came out and asked me if I had seen anything.

Q. Then you interceded for the boy down at police headquarters?

A. Yes, they told me they were going to give him twenty years for it and I said, "I don't know what for, he did not do it".

Q. You did not know the boy?

A. No.

Q. That happened in September?

A. I guess, I don't really know when it happened. I would have to figure - dig out police files, I am not very good at remembering dates.

Q. How long did she argue with the police?

A. She did not argue with the police at all. She was arguing with the boy.

Q. With the boy?

A. Yes and he said he wanted some things her kids had taken out of the house next door in her half of the double.

MR. BOWMAN: I move that be stricken.

THE COURT: On behalf of which defendant?

MR. BOWMAN: John Baniszewski.

THE COURT: Sustained. It is ordered stricken. The jury will ignore that answer in arriving at a verdict as to John Stephan Baniszewski.

Q. Because of that experience that you saw Mrs. Baniszewski have there, you did develop bias and prejudice against her?

A. No, I felt sorry for the lady.

Q. For the boy?

A. For the lady.

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. I figured she was a hard working woman with all them kids and she told me Sylvia's mother and father -

MR. BOWMAN: We object to that, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Which defendant?

MR. BOWMAN: Both of them.

THE COURT: Sustained. The jury will ignore the answer to the question as to John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard.

Q. Finish the conversation now, if there is anything further you had with Gertrude Baniszewski.

MR. NEW: It was not a conversation - she was stating her opinion, what she thought, Judge.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you have conversation with Gertrude Baniszewski around that time with reference to the situation with that boy next door, did you?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Basing your answer on your relationship with Gertrude Baniszewski, the times you have been in her home, the things you observed of the conduct and demeanor of various people around there, Gertrude Baniszewski's conduct and demeanor and mannerisms in her home and her attitude to the boy on the front porch and all that, did you ever form an opinion as to her sanity or insanity?

A. No.

Q. Do you have one now?

A. No, I don't.

MR. ERBECKER: Nothing further.

MR. RICE: We have one or two omitted questions.

THE COURT: Alright, Mr. Rice.


Q. Mrs. Vermillion, in the course of time you lived next door to the Baniszewski household, you saw the comings and goings of the inhabitants pretty much?

A. Sometimes, like I said, I work nights and don't get up till late in the afternoon sometimes.

Q. How many times would you say, in the course of your living there, you had occasion to see Paula Baniszewski somewhere around the grounds or premises?

A. I'd see her go to work.

Q. Did you ever on occasion see her smoke?

A. Paula - no, I don't think she does.

Q. Did you ever see her carry cigarettes, lighted?

A. Not that I know of.

MR. RICE: No further questions.

THE COURT: Any questions on behalf of the other defendants?

MR. NEDEFF: I have one.


Q. You said someone wanted to give this boy twenty years. Who said that, the prosecutor or the police or Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. No, the detective, Kaiser, said that is what he would get if he was convicted, he would get twenty years for breaking and entering illegally.

Q. The boy never went in the house?

A. No, he was on the front porch.

Q. You and your husband were sitting in the car?

A. We had left and he was not there and we went to the White Castle and got hamburgers and came back to our house and were sitting in the car eating them on the way home in the car and the boy just came around the house and up on her porch and knocked on the door and she came to the porch and they were arguing.

Q. When was it Mr. Kaiser told you -

MR. NEW: We object. It is outside the scope of direct.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. NEDEFF: I will withdraw the question.

THE COURT: He has withdrawn the question.

MR. NEDEFF: I have nothing further.

THE COURT: Anything further on behalf of the defendants in the way of cross examination?

MR. RICE: I have no more.

THE COURT: Any re-direct, State?

MR. NEW: No, step down, please.

THE COURT: I forgot to tell you, Mrs. Vermillion, there has been a separation of witnesses. You will not tell anyone - you will not stay in the courtroom and you will not tell the other witnesses what you have said here, do you hear me?



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