Shirley Baniszewski - Daughter of Defendant

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Shirley Baniszewski - Daughter of Defendant

Postby admin » October 31st, 2010, 6:30 pm

THE COURT: Tell me what your name is.

WITNESS: Shirley Baniszewski.

THE COURT: How old are you?

WITNESS: Ten.

THE COURT: Qualify your witness, please.

SHIRLEY BANISZEWSKI , a witness called on behalf of the State of Indiana,
being duly sworn by the Court, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MISS MARJORIE WESSNER,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. Your name, please.

A. Shirley Baniszewski.

Q. How old are you, Shirley?

A. Ten.

Q. When will you be eleven?

A. July 6.

Q. 1966?

A. Yes.

Q. When were you born?

A. 1955.

Q. Do you go to Sunday School?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. How much do you go?

A. Every Sunday.

Q. Do you know what it means to raise your right hand and swear to tell the truth?

A. No, ma'am.

Q. Do you know what it means to tell the truth?

A. I think so, I am not sure.

Q. What happens if you don't tell the truth?

A. Well, it gets other people in trouble and yourself.

Q. Can you tell the truth?

A. Yes, I can.

Q. Will you tell the truth?

A. Yes, I will.

Q. Where do you go to school, Shirley?

A. Zionsville.

Q. What grade are you in?

A. Fourth.

Q. And where did you used to live?

A. 3850 East New York Street.

Q. Is that in Indianapolis, Marion County?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. What is your mother's name?

A. Gertrude Wright - I mean Baniszewski.

Q. What is your father's name?

A. John Baniszewski.

Q. Is your mother here today?

A. Yes, she is.

Q. Point her out, please.

A. There. (indicting defendant Gertrude Baniszewski)

Q. What does she have on?

A. A white blouse, a plaid skirt and a blue and white sweater.

Q. Do you have any brothers and sisters?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What are your brother's and sister's names?

A. Paula and Johnny.

Q. How old is Paula, do you know?

A. Eighteen.

Q. Is she here now?

A. Yes, she is.

Q. Point her out - does she have a green blouse on?

A. Yes. (indicting defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski)

Q. What are your other sisters' names?

A. Stephanie.

Q. How old is she?

A. Fifteen.

Q. Any others?

A. Marie is eleven and that is all.

Q. Any brothers?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What are your brothers names?

A. Johnny -

Q. How old is John?

A. Thirteen.

Q. Is he here?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. Point him out - does he have sweater on?

A. Yes, he does. (indicating defendant John Stephan Baniszewski)

Q. Any other brothers?

A. One, Jimmy.

Q. How old is Jimmy?

A. Eight.

Q. Any others?

A. I take that back, Jimmy is nine now and I have a brother named Denny.

Q. When you lived at 3850 East New York Street, Shirley, did Sylvia and Jenny Likens live with you?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that 1965?

A. 1965.

Q. Were you there at the time - the day they came?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. And how long did they live there?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did they live there till Sylvia died?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that in October?

A. Yes, it was.

MR. BOWMAN: We object. She is leading the witness.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Shirley, when you lived there, did you ever see anyone strike Sylvia?

A. Yes, I did.

MR. ERBECKER: I would like to make a motion in the absence of the jury.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate jurors, by agreement of parties and with the consent of State and defendants made in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. We will recess till 9:30 Monday morning, this coming Monday, the 9th day of May, at which time you will report to the jury room at 9:30. During this adjournment, do not talk among yourselves and don't let anyone else talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Do not form or express an opinion on the case till it is finally submitted to you. Do not read any newspaper articles that may appear about the case and don't watch anything or listen to anything that may be broadcast about the case. In going to and from the jury room, please try and avoid listening to any conversation that may pertain to the case. Jury and Alternate Jurors are excused till 9:30 Monday morning.

JURY EXCUSED.

THE COURT: Mr. Hammond, are you this witnesses' attorney?

MR. HAMMOND: I am, Your Honor.

THE COURT: She is beginning to testify in this case. Will you qualify as her as her attorney?

MR. ERBECKER: At this time I have caused to be served a subpoena on Mr. Hammond. I think he knows it. I asked for a separation of witnesses. On behalf of Gertrude Baniszewski, I respectfully oppose Mr. Hammond's presence in the courtroom at this time.

THE COURT: When a lawyer represents a client, no court can keep that lawyer out of a courtroom. It would be denial of right to counsel. Whether he is served a subpoena or not is immaterial. As an exception under the discretion given me by law, whether you are subpoenaed or not, Mr. Hammond, as attorney representing this witness you are to be in the courtroom every time she is on the witness stand and if you have any other clients who are called to testify in this case, that exception applies, understand?

MR. HAMMOND: Yes, sir, I understand. I insist upon it.

THE COURT: That would be denial of right to counsel to people who are entitled to a lawyer. Now, before we go further in this case, have you talked to your client, Mr. Hammond?

MR. HAMMOND: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: She is willing to testify?

MR. HAMMOND: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: What motion do you have, Mr. Erbecker?

MR. ERBECKER: At this time, Your Honor, defendant Gertrude Baniszewski requests permission of the court to ask a few preliminary questions of this witness preparatory to making a motion.

THE COURT: Granted. Show Mrs. Court Reporter the jury is not in the court room and is out of the presence and hearing of these proceedings.

PRELIMINARY QUESTIONS (OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY),
BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Now, young lady, your name is Shirley Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. How old are you?

A. Ten.

Q. When were you ten?

A. Last July.

Q. Last July. You do to school, do you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What school?

A. Zionsville.

Q. Did anyone ask you to testify in this case?

A. No, sir.

Q. Are you doing it willingly?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And I think on direct examination by Miss Wessner, the young lady down there, the deputy prosecutor, she asked you in substance something about - do you know the truth or are you willing to tell the truth - and you remember her asking you that? Did you say you are not sure about the truth, did you say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Pardon?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did say it then, you are not too sure about what it means to tell the truth, is that what you mean?

A. Yes.

Q. Now then, young lady -

THE COURT: Are there any other witnesses in the courtroom? Alright.

Q. Do you know what any of your legal rights are when you testify in a court of law, do you?

THE COURT: Any objections Mr. Hammond, you may make them.

MR. NEW: The State will object. She has counsel.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you live there at your mother's house in most of August, September and October, up to the time this young lady died?

MR. NEW: We object. That is not preliminary.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. That is cross examination, not preliminary.

Q. Do you understand your obligation to speak the truth?

THE COURT: Do you know what the big word "obligation" means?

A. No.

THE COURT: Your duty and business to tell the truth.

A. Yes.

Q. What is your understanding of your duty?

A. That I should tell the truth.

Q. Do you understand when these questions are being -

MR. HAMMOND: I am going to ask for a recess.

THE COURT: You don't need a recess. She will calm down in a minute. Next question, Mr. Erbecker.

Q. Do you understand these questions as they are asked, being asked of you right now - do you know what I am talking about?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you have a memory enough to understand and retain the understanding and memory of a question when it is asked you sufficiently to give an answer?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Do you understand this trial is a First Degree Murder charge against your mother?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Can you remember the question long enough to give the true, correct and truthful answer?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Do you know what happens to little girls who don't tell the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What happens to them?

A. They get in trouble.

Q. With whom?

A. Whoever they lie to.

THE COURT: Why do you cry at these questions. Don't be afraid. Nobody can hurt you. You are here to testify. You don't have to cry. Nobody can hurt you.

Q. How did you come to the court today?

A. My foster mother brought me.

Q. Your foster mother brought you?

A. Yes.

Q. What is her name?

A. Mrs. Barrett.

Q. How did she bring you - in an automobile?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know where you are right now?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where are you?

A. In the City-County Building. Criminal Court Two.

Q. Where?

A. City-County Building. Criminal Court Two.

Q. What school do you go to?

A. Zionsville.

Q. What grade are you in?

A. Fourth.

Q. What are you studying this year?

A. Math and science.

Q. What kind of grades do you get?

A. Not very good ones.

Q. What are your grades in math?

A. D.

Q. What are your grades in English?

A. I don't remember.

Q. What other subjects do you take where you get good grades?

A. Spelling.

Q. What grade do you get in that?

A. A and B.

Q. Have you flunked any grades?

THE COURT: He means missed passing.

A. One.

Q. Which one?

A. First grade.

Q. Do you know your teacher's name, any of them?

A. Only the one I have now.

Q. How do you spell the word Baniszewski?

A. b-a-n-i-s-z-e-w-s-k-i.

THE COURT: How do you pronounce it?

A. Baniszewski.

Q. Where do you live right now?

A. R.R. 1, Zionsville.

Q. When did you move to where you live right now?

THE COURT: Mr. Erbecker, even though the parties are not objecting, please stay with preliminary questions as to ability to tell the truth and be a proper witness.

MR. ERBECKER: This is one of the criterions, to remember past events.

THE COURT: Please stay with qualifications on a girl between the ages of seven and eleven.

Q. Do you know where you lived a year ago?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't know?

A. No.

Q. Do you know what your teacher's name was that taught you any of your classes last year?

A. No sir.

Q. Can you remember anything that occurred last year in most of August, September and October?

THE COURT: The word occurred means happened. He wants to know if you remember anything that happened last summer and fall?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Can you? Do you go to church?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Which one?

A. It is at Whitestown. I don't know the name of it.

Q. Do you know the pastor's name?

A. No, sir.

Q. You don't know it. Now, you held your hand up a minute ago to tell the truth, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you mean then, Young Lady, when you said you were not sure about telling the truth, or words to that effect, what did you mean?

MR. NEW: We object. She did not say that.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you say a while ago you were not sure about the truth?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. The record speaks for itself.

Q. Do you know the difference between right and wrong?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you? Would you tell me what that difference is?

A. Well, right is when something that is not - that you are doing like - well, I don't actually know how to put it.

THE COURT: Tell her what a college professor would say, Mr. Rice.

MR. RICE: I say it is a question Socrates would be unable to answer.

MR. NEW: The State would intercede.

THE COURT: Why don't you object to the question instead of interceding.

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Is it right or wrong to tell a story?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled. By story he means a lie. Do you think it is right to tell a lie or wrong to tell a lie?

A. It is wrong.

Q. Has anyone talked to you today about what your story on the witness stand will be, what you are going to tell, to say on the witness stand?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. That is not preliminary.

Q. Do you know that you are a witness for the State of Indiana in this case against your mother?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

MR. ERBECKER: No further questions.

THE COURT: Any other questions?

MR. BOWMAN: Yes.

THE COURT: Preliminary?

MR. BOWMAN: I think so.

PRELIMINARY QUESTIONS (OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY),
BY MR. FORREST BOWMAN, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANTS,
COY HUBBARD AND JOHN STEPHAN BANISZEWSKI

Q. Shirley, do you know whether or not you have to testify here?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. She has a lawyer.

MR. BOWMAN: Your Honor, I would ask the Court to require the witness to answer the question personally so we may get - determine whether or not she is competent under the statute.

THE COURT: She is not an accomplice. She does not have to give consent. She is obligated to testify if she knows right from wrong and knows the obligation of a witness. Objection of the State sustained.

MR. BOWMAN: I have a witness I would like to offer on the witness' competency. The witness is in court right now. It goes to due process.

THE COURT: The question is for the jury to determine whether she is telling the truth or not, not Judge Rabb.

MR. BOWMAN: I would like to make an Offer To Prove on the record.

THE COURT: Let's hear it.

MR. BOWMAN: The witness, Shirley Baniszewski, is in court with her counsel, John Hammond. Mr. Hammond would be called as a witness if the defendants were permitted to do so. The witness John Hammond would testify he is an attorney, licensed to practice law in the State of Indiana; that he represents Shirley Baniszewski that at one time since October 26, 1965 he represented John Baniszewski with respect to the charges in this case; that while he was so representing John Baniszewski he consulted with him as to details about this case and said consultation was as the consequence of his representation of John Baniszewski; that he also represented Gertrude Baniszewski since October 26, 1965; that he now represents Stephanie Baniszewski, a co-defendant in this case; that he no longer represents John Baniszewski in this cause; that he has consulted with the State of Indiana with respect to whether or not Shirley Baniszewski will testify as a witness in this cause; that in consulting and making that decision he has considered things learned in his consultation with John Baniszewski. For that reason, Your Honor, defendant John Baniszewski objects to this witness for the reason of competency,basing it on the violation of his right to counsel.

THE COURT: Do you want to carry the Offer of Proof further, how long the matters came to your knowing?

MR. BOWMAN: No, sir, I rest on that record.

THE COURT: What is your motion, sir?

MR. BOWMAN: My motion is an objection to the competency of this witness, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. She has a right to counsel the same an anybody else and a lawyer is bound to keep his confidences. Anything else by way of preliminary?

MR. ERBECKER: There is no motion in the record. At this time, the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski, by virtue of the prior association of her with John Hammond, respectfully moves the court, notwithstanding he is counsel for the witness, that this court in open court advise this witness of her rights under the 5th amendment, the record showing she too was in the house during this alleged time, she possibly could, conceivably give testimony to incriminate herself.

THE COURT: Do I have the prosecutor's understanding there is no charges against this girl? I want to hear from the State of Indiana and see how they feel. Is this an accomplice witness?

MR. NEW: She is not an accomplice witness and no indictment is pending against her.

THE COURT: That is what I asked.

MR. BOWMAN: I think a record could be made to disclose there has been and may still be a delinquency complaint pending against her. I am advising the court with respect to that without being certain.

THE COURT: Delinquency in this case is not the accomplice contemplated by the statute. The only time I inquire of this witness is whether she wants to be a witness, Whether an accomplice consents to testify. On the other hand, if the testimony comes to the place it may incriminate her, I will stop her at that time.

MR. BOWMAN: Would you do it if it develops on cross examination?

THE COURT: I would develop it on the incrimination if the attorney does not. She has a right to the protection of the law.

MR. ERBECKER: I respectfully again ask the court to admonish the witness of her constitutional rights.

THE COURT: What are her constitutional rights?

MR. ERBECKER: Her constitutional rights are - among the multitudinous ones, the main one is she knowingly, willingly and understandingly forgoes her rights here -

THE COURT: A ten year old girl I am going to ask?

MR. ERBECKER: No, I ask you to break it down.

THE COURT: Shirley, do you want to talk in court about this case?

A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Do you want to do that on your own?

A. Yes.

THE COURT: Did your lawyer, John Hammond, tell you to do it?

A. No, sir.

THE COURT: Did anybody force you to do it?

A. No, sir.

THE COURT: Do you want to talk all by yourself and tell what happened?

A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: O.K.

MR. ERBECKER: It could conceivably involve her.

THE COURT: I don't see how it can. The minute it does, Mr. Prosecutor, I will stop you.

MR. NEW: We are familiar with the testimony. She testified before the Grand Jury and for the record, it is not the State's intention to any way implicate her, regardless of her testimony.

THE COURT: May I ask you this. I don't know if it is a proper question to ask. You surveyed and valuated her testimony and knowledge of the facts in this case?

MR. NEW: Completely, including the statements made to the police officers and signed.

THE COURT: Do you appreciate the age of this girl?

MR. NEW: I do.

THE COURT: And the position she is in?

MR. NEW: I personally questioned the witness here in the Grand Jury.

THE COURT: And the position she is in, do you think she is a competent witness?

MR. NEW: More than competent.

THE COURT: You are protecting her rights?

MR. NEW: Yes.

THE COURT: On the statements of the State of Indiana, this witness will be permitted to testify. We are in adjournment till 9:30 Monday morning. Mr. Hammond, you come with your client.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

COURT ADJOURNED.

MAY 9, 1965, AND THE TRIAL OF THIS CAUSE WAS RESUMED.

THE COURT: Ready for the jury?

MR. NEW: The State is ready.

MR. BOWMAN: The defendants are ready.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: The State may present it's next witness, please.

MISS WESSNER: Shirley Baniszewski.

SHIRLEY BANISZEWSKI , a witness called on behalf of the State of Indiana,
being duly sworn by the Court, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED,
QUESTIONS BY MISS MARJORIE WESSNER,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. Shirley, do you know Coy Hubbard?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Did he ever come to your house when you lived at 3850 East New York Street?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. How much would he come?

A. Every once in a while.

Q. Did he live close by your house?

A. Not too close.

Q. Did you ever see Coy Hubbard do anything to Sylvia?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. In the last two weeks of Sylvia's life, did you see Coy Hubbard do anything to her then?

A. Uhu.

Q. What did he do, Shirley?

MR. BOWMAN: We object, unless the time is fixed.

THE COURT: The last two weeks.

MR. BOWMAN: We object to that range of time being unreasonably vague.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Do you remember the question?

THE COURT: Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Yes, he did.

Q. And who was there when he did this?

A. My mother, Paula and I think John was, and Jimmy.

Q. Jimmy.

Q. Speak very loud so these ladies and gentlemen can hear, and the judge. What did you see Coy Hubbard do?

A. Downstairs in the basement, he rammed her against the basement wall.

Q. How did he do this?

A. He tackled her.

Q. Did he take hold of her?

A. No.

Q. How did he tackle her?

A. He just shoved her like they do to get a football, ram him sort of to get him out of the way. That is what Coy did.

Q. Did he push her against the basement wall?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Did she strike the basement wall?

A. Yes.

Q. What part?

A. Her head.

Q. How many times did Coy do this?

A. Three times.

Q. Do you know what day this was on, Shirley?

A. No.

Q. Is Coy Hubbard here today?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. Is he sitting here?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. Which one is he?

A. Right there. (indicating defendant Coy Hubbard)

Q. With a sort of light plaid jacket and white shirt?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that Coy?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see him do anything else to Sylvia?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. When was this?

A. Well, before she died.

Q. Was it within the last two weeks before she died?

A. I think so.

Q. What did you see?

A. Upstairs in the bedroom he rammed her against the wall and socked her and smacked her.

Q. Where did he sock her?

A. In the face, or sometimes he did it in the stomach.

Q. In the stomach?

A. Yes.

Q. What would he use?

A. His fist.

Q. How many times did he do this?

A. I don't know, many times.

Q. Many times?

A. Yes.

Q. Who else was there?

A. Johnny.

Q. Anyone else?

A. Jimmy.

Q. Anybody else?

A. I was.

Q. You were there?

A. Yes.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. She just sort of - you know - groaned like.

Q. Groaned?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she do anything else?

A. No.

Q. Did Johnny do anything then?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. What did Johnny do?

A. Rammed her against the wall.

Q. This was up in the bedroom?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. Coy and John both took turns. I could not begin to count them.

Q. Anything else you saw Coy Hubbard do?

A. No.

Q. Was your mother there then?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. What did she do. if anything?

A. She was downstairs.

Q. She was downstairs, she was not in the room upstairs with you?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see anyone tie Sylvia up?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When did you see this, Shirley?

A. Within the two weeks.

Q. Before Sylvia died?

A. Yes.

Q. Who tied her up?

A. Coy and my brother John.

Q. And where were they when they did this?

A. Downstairs in the basement.

Q. Was anybody else there?

A. No.

Q. Just you and Coy and Johnny and Sylvia, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. How did they tie her?

A. They put her arms up and tied them against the banister of the stairs.

Q. What did they tie her with?

A. A rope.

Q. Did they tie any other part of her body?

A. Her feat. They tied her feet to a board that was holding the stairs up.

Q. And where - were her hands over her head?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did they leave her tied up, do you know?

A. No.

Q. Did they do anything when she was tied up?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Did you ever see anyone put a gag in Sylvia's mouth?

A. My mother.

Q. When was this?

A. When she was - in the two weeks, I think.

Q. And what happened when she did this?

A. She just stuck it in her mouth because she was screaming because they put her in a tub of water.

Q. Who put her in the water?

A. My mother.

Q. Do you know whether it was hot?

A. It was hot water. I seen the steam.

Q. Was Sylvia tied then?

A. One time.

Q. Who tied her?

A. Johnny and my mother.

Q. Who put her in this tub?

A. My mother.

Q. Anyone else?

A. I think Paula helped her.

Q. Who put the gag in her mouth.

A. My mother.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Nothing, but she sort of chattered her teeth all the time.

Q. Did she - did you see anyone put her in the tub more this one time?

A. No, not recently.

Q. Do you know Ricky Hobbs, Shirley?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. How do you know him?

A. He wears glasses, dark rimmed glasses.

Q. Is he here today?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you point him out?

A. There. (indicating defendant Richard Hobbs)

Q. And did he come to your house when you lived at 3850 East New York?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. How much would he come?

A. Once in a while.

Q. Did he live close by?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. On the Saturday before Sylvia died, did he come to your house that day?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Who else was there that day?

A. My mother and Stephanie and I was.

Q. And what did you see then, Shirley?

A. They carved on Sylvia.

Q. They carved on Sylvia - who is they?

A. My mother and Richard.

Q. What did they use to carve on her?

A. A needle.

Q. Tell the jury and court what they did, Shirley.

A. Well, they - Richard tore off her clothes and Mom started it and Richard finished it.

Q. How much did your mother write?

A. She just went over real lightly.

Q. How many words did she write, do you know?

A. She just wrote one letter.

Q. Was this needle hot?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Did they - where did they do this, what room?

A. In the kitchen.

Q. Was it all done in the kitchen?

A. No.

Q. What happened, did they leave the kitchen?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. Where did they go when they left the kitchen?

A. Down to the basement.

Q. Who went in the basement?

A. Richard.

Q. Did you go in the basement then?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What happened down in the basement?

A. Richard finished carving on her.

Q. And did he do anything else to her down in the basement?

A. No, I don't think so, not that I saw.

Q. Did you ever see anyone put a figure three on her stomach?

A. No.

Q. Did they put anything else on her stomach besides the hot needle?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. What did Sylvia do, Shirley, when they were doing this?

A. She just groaned, that is all.

Q. Did she say anything?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see Paula do anything to her?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When was this?

A. I think within the two weeks and before.

Q. And before?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you see Paula do?

A. Whip her.

Q. What did she whip her with?

A. A paddle.

Q. Would you know that paddle, Shirley?

A. Yes, I Would.

Q. I show you what has been admitted in evidence as State's Exhibit No. 14, Shirley. Have you seen this before?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Is this the paddle your sister Paula used on Sylvia?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Did she use this more than one time?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. How many times?

A. Several times.

Q. This time you are talking about, how many times did she hit her with it then?

A. Three or four.

Q. Where did she hit her?

A. On the backside.

Q. Was there another time Paula hit her with this paddle?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Did you ever see anyone throw a coke bottle at Sylvia?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When was this?

A. It was in the two weeks.

Q. And who threw - did someone throw a coke bottle?

A. Yes.

Q. Who threw it?

A. My mother.

Q. Where were you when this happened?

A. In the kitchen.

Q. Tell us what you saw then.

A. Mrs. Lepper, a neighbor woman, just left and Mom called Sylvia upstairs and she threw the coke bottle at her. She just picked it up and threw it at her.

Q. Had she done something?

A. No.

Q. Had she said anything?

A. No.

Q. Where did it hit her?

A. In the head.

Q. What did Sylvia do then?

A. Just made a funny noise.

Q. Did you ever see anyone burn Sylvia?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Who did this?

A. My mother.

Q. And how many times have you seen this?

A. Twice.

Q. And what did she burn her with?

A. One time she threw matches on her and one time she put a cigarette out on her.

Q. Were these matches lighted?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she hit Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Where?

A. On the legs and on the arms.

Q. Did they burn Sylvia?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. What did Sylvia look like?

A. She just had burns.

Q. And was the cigarette lighted?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Have you ever seen your mother do anything else to Sylvia?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. What?

A. Beat her with a paddle.

Q. How many times was this?

A. Once.

Q. Was this in October?

A. No.

Q. When was it?

A. It was - Sylvia was being punished for doing something she should not have done.

Q. What did Sylvia do, if you know?

A. I think it was that we went to the park one day and it was when Jenny and Sylvia got some bottles and both Sylvia and Jenny got a whipping for it.

Q. Did you ever see your mother hit Sylvia with her hand?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When was this?

A. Within the two weeks.

Q. In October?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Before Sylvia died?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. What did you see your mother do?

A. Smack her around and throw her on the floor.

Q. And when Sylvia fell on the floor, what happened?

A. She would groan.

Q. Did your mother say anything to her?

A. She just would say awful words to her.

Q. Do you remember what they were, Shirley?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Had Sylvia done anything?

A. No, she had not.

Q. Had she say anything?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever hear Sylvia use bad words to your mother?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever hear Sylvia use bad words to your sister Paula?

A. No, at school I heard about it.

Q. Did someone tell you?

A. Yes.

Q. You did not hear it yourself?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia do anything to your mother?

A. No, I never.

Q. Did she ever do anything to your sister Paula?

A. No.

Q. Or your brother Johnny?

A. No.

Q. How about Coy Hubbard?

A. No.

Q. Or Ricky Hobbs?

A. No.

Q. Was Sylvia a good girl around the house?

A. She was helpful.

Q. Who did she help?

A. She would help everybody in the house.

Q. Did she help your mother?

A. Yes, she would.

Q. Did she do housework?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Where did Sylvia sleep?

A. Do you mean within the two weeks?

Q. When she first came, where did she sleep?

A. Upstairs in the bedroom.

Q. Did she move somewhere else to sleep?

A. Not till within the two weeks.

Q. And then where did she go to sleep?

A. Downstairs in the basement.

Q. And how many nights did she sleep down there, do you know?

A. Several nights.

Q. Did any of the dogs sleep down there?

A. Yes.

Q. How many dogs did you have?

A. One.

Q. Did you ever get another dog?

A. No.

Q. What kind of dog was this?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Was it a big dog?

A. No.

Q. Was it a puppy?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. What about a police dog?

A. Oh, yes, a police dog too.

Q. It came to your house.

A. Yes.

Q. Whose dog was this?

A. My father's.

Q. Did it stay at your house?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. When Sylvia slept in the basement, what did she sleep on?

A. Clothes.

Q. On some clothes?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there a bed down there?

A. No, there was not.

Q. When Sylvia was carved with this needle, Shirley, how was it heated?

A. A match.

Q. And this was upstairs?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. By matches downstairs also?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Did they use anything else to heat it downstairs?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Shirley, I will show you what we have admitted in evidence as State's Exhibit No. 11. Have you ever seen this before?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Where did you see that?

A. Downstairs in the basement.

Q. Did you ever see that used?

A. No - yes, I think I have. My brother John hit her with it, I think.

Q. Your brother John hit Sylvia with it?

A. Yes.

Q. When was this?

A. In the two weeks.

Q. Where did he hit her?

A. On the leg.

Q. Did you see anyone put this on Sylvia's stomach?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember the day Sylvia died, Shirley?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Were you home that day?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Were you in school?

A. No, I was not.

Q. Why?

A. Because I had a cold.

Q. Were you home all day?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Did you see Sylvia on that day?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When did you see her?

A. In the afternoon - in the middle of the day.

Q. Where was Sylvia?

A. Upstairs in the kitchen.

Q. Did something happen then?

A. My mother threw her on the floor.

Q. How did she do this?

A. She just shoved her.

Q. Sylvia fell on the floor?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. What part of her body hit the floor?

A. Her whole body.

Q. What did Sylvia do then?

A. She just laid there.

Q. How long did she lay there?

A. Not very long.

Q. How did she get up?

A. Mom helped her.

Q. Then what happened?

A. She sat her on a chair.

Q. Then what happened, Shirley?

A. She gave her some milk and doughnuts to eat.

Q. Did Sylvia drink the milk?

A. No, she did not.

Q. What did she do with it?

A. She threw it on the floor.

Q. Who threw it on the floor?

A. Sylvia did.

Q. Did she say anything about eating?

A. No, she just moaned.

Q. What else did your mother give her?

A. A doughnut.

Q. Did Sylvia eat the doughnut?

A. No, she threw it on the floor.

Q. Did she say anything then?

A. No.

Q. Did she make any kind of sound?

A. She moaned.

Q. Then what happened?

A. So Mom gave her another glass of milk but she just threw it on the floor again.

Q. Did she try to drink it?

A. She tried but she could not hold her arm up.

Q. What was wrong with her arm, do you know?

A. No.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Mom gave her a glass of water and she threw that on the floor.

Q. Did she try to drink the water?

A. Yes, she tried.

Q. What did she do?

A. She just poured it - like her arm just went limp like that.

Q. Did the milk and water spill on Sylvia?

A. Some of it did.

Q. And what did your mother say then?

A. She did not say anything.

Q. What happened then, if anything?

A. She sat her up there and tried to clean her up and she kept trying to feed her some but Sylvia kept saying she could not eat.

Q. What happened then, Shirley?

A. Mom said she wanted to try to help her but Sylvia just - you know sort of flopped around.

Q. Did Sylvia go to the basement then?

A. I think so.

Q. Who took her to the basement?

A. My mother.

Q. What did Sylvia do when she got to the basement?

A. She laid down.

Q. Did she say anything?

A. No.

Q. Did you see any one else go down in the basement then?

A. When Paula came home from work.

Q. What did Paula do then?

A. I don't know. She just went downstairs in the basement.

Q. Did you see any one put water on Sylvia when she was in the basement that day?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was this?

A. Stephanie.

Q. Did you see any one else put anything on her?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Who?

A. My mother.

Q. What did she put on her?

A. Cold water.

Q. Any one else?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Where did she get the water?

A. The hot water she got from the faucet. She used the hose to get the cold water.

Q. Who put hot water on her?

A. Stephanie.

Q. Who got - what was Sylvia doing?

A. Laying on the floor.

Q. Had she had a bowel movement?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she say, if anything?

A. A, B, C, D.

Q. How many times did she say that?

A. She just kept saying it over and over.

Q. What did your mother say?

A. She called her a faker.

Q. Then what happened?

A. They sprayed cold water on her.

Q. Then what happened, Shirley?

A. Sylvia passed out.

Q. How do you know she passed out?

A. Because when they brung her up, they carried her up and laid her on a blanket in the kitchen.

Q. Who carried her?

A. I think Richard Hobbs and my brother John.

Q. What did they do?

A. Laid her on a blanket and took her upstairs.

Q. When they took her upstairs what did they do?

A. Laid her on the mattress on the floor.

Q. Did you go in the bedroom?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did anyone give her a bath that night?

A. Yes, they did?

Q. Who did that?

A. My mother and Paula.

Q. When you went in the bedroom, what happened?

A. This last time I went in there Stephanie was trying to help her.

Q. What was Stephanie doing?

A. Holding her tongue and breathing in her mouth.

Q. Tell the Ladies and Gentlemen what Stephanie did then?

A. Well, Stephanie held her tongue and breathed in her mouth but she could not hold on to her tongue any more. It slipped and she gave a death gargle and Stephanie started crying after she died.

Q. Is that when Sylvia died?

A. Yes, it was.

MISS WESSNER: You may cross examine.

THE COURT: Defendant Gertrude Baniszewski may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Shirley, how old are you?

A. Ten.

Q. When were you ten?

A. Last July.

Q. You will be eleven this coming July?

A. Yes.

Q. When is the last time you talked to your mother?

A. The first time I was here in court.

Q. When was that?

A. About three weeks ago.

Q. About three weeks ago? What grade are you in school?

A. Fourth.

Q. When is the first time you saw your mother touch or beat Sylvia, the first time?

A. After awhile when she was here.

Q. When was that, what month, do you remember?

A. I don't remember.

Q. How long had Sylvia stayed at your house before your mother did something to her?

A. Until October.

Q. Your mother did not do anything to her till October?

A. Well, no, that I know of she never.

Q. She never done anything to her?

A. Never.

Q. And when did this start to happen, the first part of October?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know the way it happened?

A. No.

Q. Did Sylvia ever say or do anything to your mother?

A. No, she never.

Q. You say your mother used some bad words sometimes to Sylvia?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. On how many occasions?

A. Lots of times.

Q. For no reason at all?

A. For no reason at all.

Q. Would your mother seem to enjoy it when she would hurt Sylvia?

MR. NEW: We object. It calls for a conclusion.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It calls for a conclusion.

Q. Did your mother ever laugh when she did these things to Sylvia?

A. No.

Q. Would she ever smile?

A.. No.

Q. Would she say anything when she would do these things?

A. She would not say nothing.

Q. Did she ever give a reason for striking her, hitting her?

A. No, she never.

Q. What would you say when this was going on?

A. I did not say anything.

Q. Your mother's tone of voice when she would talk to Sylvia, was it in an angry tone of voice or an ordinary conversational tone?

A. Once in a while it was a conversational tone.

Q. Once in a while it was a conversational tone, when she was inflicting these injuries?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. In other words, she would not even raise her voice when she was doing mean things?

A. Yes, she would.

Q. All the time?

A. Not all the time.

Q. Sometimes?

A. Sometimes.

Q. Was your mother ever present while some of the other people were doing things to Sylvia?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. How many times?

A. She was around about all the time.

Q. About all the time, and she did not do anything to stop the other people?

A. No, she never.

Q. What did she say when these other people were doing these things?

A. Nothing.

Q. Would she try to stop them?

A. One time with Richard she tried to stop.

Q. What did she do?

A. She told him to quit.

Q. What was he doing?

A. Carving on her.

Q. Carving on her, and your mother told him to stop?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. What did your mother do when Stephanie was trying to breath in her mouth?

A. She did not do anything, she was downstairs.

Q. What was she doing?

A. I don't know.

Q. Now then, where was Sylvia washed at, bathed at - downstairs?

A. In the bathroom upstairs.

Q. Right next to the room where she laid her out there?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see or hear Sylvia talk back to any of these people when these things were done to her?

A. No, I never.

Q. She would not say anything at all?

A. No.

Q. The first part of October, 1965, when this first started would she say anything then?

A. No, except she would say "I am sorry" or something like that, as if she did something wrong, but she never did anything wrong.

Q. She never did anything wrong, did she?

A. No.

Q. These things happened in the morning before you went to school?

A. Yes, sometimes.

Q. Did it happen at night when you came home from school?

A. Yes, it would.

Q. What time of the day or night was it when you saw Stephanie put hot water on her?

A. It was about 4:00 o'clock.

Q. The day she died?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. She put hot water on her, did she?

A. Yes.

Q. Your mother put cold water on her?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Have you talked to Stephanie the last three or four days about this case?

A. No, I have not even seen her.

Q. You have always lived with your mother ever since you can remember?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. How long have you been going to school?

A. Ever since I was in kindergarten.

Q. You were how old. Five years old or six?

A. Five.

Q. Do you know whether or not your mother was home every day for the last two weeks before this girl died?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. Did she ever go to the doctor?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. She was under a doctor's care, was she?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. Do you know that of your own knowledge?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because she is asthmatic.

Q. And would she go down the the doctor's office?

A. Yes, she would.

Q. Where is his office?

A. On Arlington.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because I have been to him several times.

Q. With your mother.

A. Yes, with my mother.

Q. The day this happened, the day of the death, was she sick?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. Was she in bed any time?

A. No, she was not.

Q. How do you know she was sick?

A. Well, she could not catch her breath.

Q. How do you know that?

A. She kept choking and she told us she could not catch her breath in a real low voice.

Q. That was the day Sylvia died?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Did you ever see your mother in this trouble before?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. Before she divorced my father.

Q. When was that?

A. Three or four years ago.

Q. Your mother has been sick the last three or four years?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see her in bed sick?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. Several times.

Q. How many times during the month of October - last year?

A. She would lay down every once in a while when she could not catch her breath.

Q. Was she in pain, do you know?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Would she ever moan and groan?

A. Yes.

Q. How about September, the month before that? Was your mother sick then?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. Did you ever see her in bed?

A. She would lay down.

Q. Did you ever see her go to a doctor?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. About August, the month before that - was she sick then?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. Did you ever see her go to a doctor?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. When she would lay down in bed with these attacks or whatever it was, would that be a few minutes or hours?

A. About a hour and a half.

Q. Where would she lay down, upstairs or on the first floor?

A. Once in a while she would lay upstairs and once in a while she would lay down on the couch downstairs.

Q. Would she go to sleep?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Then naturally she would not know what was going on around her, would she?

A. No.

Q. Lots of times she went to sleep those two or three months?

A. Lots of times.

Q. While you were there you saw it?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Was she always present when these other people did things to Sylvia - your mother?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. But sometimes she would be asleep though?

A. Sometimes.

Q. Did you ever - were you ever present when the doctor came to the house?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever go to the doctor with your mother?

A. No.

MR. ERBECKER: No further questions.

THE COURT: Defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. GEORGE RICE, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT
PAULA MARIE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Were you aware your sister had a fractured wrist sometime during the summer of 1965?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Do you know which wrist it was?

A. I think it was the right one.

Q. The right wrist. On the occasion to which you have testified her saying, you have seen your sister paddle the bottom of Sylvia three or four times, was the cast on her hand at the time this was done?

A. No.

Q. Do you know which hand she used?

A. No.

Q. You are not sure whether it was the right or whether it was the left?

A. No, I am not sure.

Q. You stated also you had occasion to see Sylvia placed in a tub of hot or warm water?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall the date on which that was done, approximately?

A. No.

Q. Did you yourself have opportunity to determine how warm the water was?

A. One time.

Q. I am referring to this specific occasion, exact occasion.

A. No.

Q. You don't know?

A. No.

Q. You saw it only at a distance?

A. At a distance.

Q. You did not put your hand in the water?

A. One time I did.

Q. Did you on the occasion your mother and Paula supposedly put her in the water?

A. Yes, it was warm.

Q. It was warm. Did it burn your hand?

A. No, it never.

Q. During the times that you have said you saw these various things done to Sylvia, were you there just looking on?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you yourself ever on any of these occasions do anything to Sylvia?

A. I did what I was told.

Q. You did when you were told? What did you do?

A. I just slapped Sylvia.

Q. That is the most that you did?

A. That is the most that I have did.

Q. How many times did you do that?

A. Just two or three times.

MR. RICE: No further questions of this little girl.

THE COURT: Defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. FORREST BOWMAN, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANTS,
COY HUBBARD AND JOHN STEPHAN BANISZEWSKI

Q. Shirley, where do you live?

A. Now?

Q. Yes.

A. In Zionsville.

Q. You live with foster parents?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. How long have you lived there?

A. Almost four months now.

Q. Almost four months?

A. Almost four.

Q. Where did you live before that?

A. I was at the Guardian Home.

Q. The Children's Guardian Home?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. You got to move in with foster parents?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you like it better there?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you talked to Miss Wessner recently?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Have you talked to her over the weekend?

A. No, I have not.

Q. You did not?

A. No.

Q. You talked to her last week?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. You know about the two week period, don't you?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Do you remember when you were talking about someone carving on Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did that happen?

A. Upstairs in the kitchen.

Q. Upstairs in the kitchen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did it all happen up there?

A. No, it never.

Q. Did some of it happen somewhere else?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. Where was that?

A. Downstairs in the basement.

Q. Was your mother down there?

A. No, she was not.

Q. Were you down there?

A. One time.

Q. One time? How did the needle get hot?

A. By matches.

Q. By matches?

A. Yes.

Q. Who held the matches?

A. My sister Marie did.

Q. Your sister Marie. You did not do that?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember that last day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were home from school with a cold?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Do you remember about what time it was when they brought Sylvia up from the basement?

A. About 6:30.

Q. About 6:30?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. They took her upstairs, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did that?

A. Richard and my brother John.

Q. Richard and your brother John. Did Stephanie help?

A. No.

Q. What did Stephanie do, if anything?

A. Tried to help her.

Q. Where?

A. Upstairs in the bedroom.

Q. That was after she got her up there?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Did someone put some water on her down in the basement?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. That was down in the basement?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see that?

A. No, I heard the water running, splashing.

Q. Who was down there when the water was splashing?

A. Mother and Paula and Stephanie.

Q. Was Johnny home from school?

A. Yes.

Q. About what time did he get home from school that day?

A. 3:30.

Q. You are sure of that?

A. I am sure of that.

MR. BOWMAN: No further questions.

THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. JAMES NEDEFF, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
RICHARD HOBBS

Q. Shirley, who was home on this day your sister died and you did not go to school?

A. She was not my sister.

Q. The day Sylvia died?

A. Just me and my brother and my baby brother, Dennis.

Q. You did not go to school yourself that day?

A. No, I never.

Q. Do you remember what day of the week it was?

A. I am not sure.

Q. When did you see Ricky Hobbs there that day, the day Sylvia died?

A. He came over later on that night.

Q. I did not hear.

A. He came on later on that night before Sylvia died.

Q. Was it dark?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Did you know he came after school was out that day?

A. No, he was not there.

Q. He came after school?

A. No, he did not come after school.

Q. Even later than that?

A. Later, yes.

Q. Where was Ricky at in the house there that day when she died?

A. Downstairs, in the front room.

Q. Were you upstairs?

A. One time.

Q. When you were upstairs did you see Ricky Hobbs breathing in Sylvia's mouth?

A. No, I never.

Q. Do you know what artificial respiration is?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Did you ever see Ricky Hobbs giving artificial respiration to Sylvia?

A. No, I never.

Q. Did you see anybody?

A. My sister Stephanie.

Q. Where was that at?

A. Upstairs in the bedroom.

Q. Who showed her how to do that?

A. Stephanie did it all by herself.

Q. Did you ever see her do that before?

A. No. I never.

Q. Did you see Ricky doing that down in the kitchen?

A. No, I never.

Q. In the basement?

A. No.

Q. Do you know who called the police?

A. Richard did.

Q. Now, that day that you said you saw your mother and Ricky carving on her with a needle, what day was that, do you remember?

A. On Saturday.

Q. Do you know what the word carve means?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What does it mean?

A. To take something and to mark on something.

Q. I did not hear you, say it again.

A. It is like taking something to mark on wood or something, whatever you carve on.

Q. Where did this happen at?

A. In the kitchen.

Q. Do you remember what time it was? Was it morning or afternoon?

A. It was in the afternoon.

Q. Who - you were all in the Kitchen?

A. My mother and Stephanie and I was.

Q. Anyone else?

A. No, - oh, and Richard was.

Q. How long were they in the kitchen doing this carving like you say?

A. About five minutes.

Q. What did you see done in that five minutes?

A. My mother started it out and Richard finished it.

Q. How did your mother start it, can you tell us?

A. She just barely touched it. She took the needle and just barely touched it.

Q. Who would light the matches to heat the needle?

A. My sister Marie.

Q. That is not Paula Marie?

A. No.

Q. Marie - how old is she?

A. Eleven - she will be twelve in June.

Q. Now, did you go down in the basement?

A. Once.

Q. Was you down in the basement on this day they were carving on Sylvia?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. How long were you down there?

A. A few minutes.

Q. What did you see down there?

A. Richard finished carving on her.

Q. You were there just a few minutes?

A. Just a few minutes.

Q. That is how long it took to carve on her?

A. No. He had it mostly done in the kitchen.

Q. You said you were only up there five minutes.

A. He had most of it done.

Q. Most of it was done upstairs in the kitchen?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. How long did that take?

A. Five or ten minutes.

Q. When Ricky Hobbs was doing this, he was doing it with what kind of needle?

A. A sewing needle.

Q. Now, when he was doing it, did he just scratch it on there or put the needle on her skin and push on it?

A. Just scratch.

Q. Did you see any blood on that?

A. No.

Q. Now, Sylvia actually took her clothes off, didn't she?

A. No.

Q. She did not? What did she have on?

A. I think a pair of shorts and a top.

Q. What else?

A. A pair of shorts and a top.

Q. Where were they laying at?

A. On the floor.

Q. Now, when you were in the kitchen did anyone come to the door?

A. Yes.

Q. Who came to the door?

A. Randy Lepper.

Q. Did he come in?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Where was Sylvia at?

A. When they heard Randy knock on the door Richard took her downstairs.

Q. What did you tell Randy Lepper?

A. I did not tell him anything.

Q. Did you talk to him at all?

A. No. I never.

Q. How old is Randy?

A. I am not sure now, he used to be eleven.

Q. You did not say nothing to him at all?

A. No.

Q. What did he do?

A. Nothing.

Q. How long did he stay?

A. Just a few minutes.

Q. Now, down in the basement, did you ever light any newspaper that was used to heat the needle?

A. No.

Q. Now, after that Saturday, did you ever see anyone go with a fountain pen and put ink on those letters?

A. It was that Saturday.

Q. Who was that?

A. Richard.

Q. He did that with what?

A. An ink pen.

Q. Was it a fountain pen?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Now, those times you said that you hit Sylvia yourself, you did that on orders?

A. Once in a while, yes.

Q. Once in a while - were there other times?

A. Yes, when I heard that they said that she was passing around that my two sisters were prostitutes.

Q. You hit her then?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How many times did you hit her?

A. Just once.

Q. Just with your hands?

A. Just with my hands.

Q. On that Saturday that you said you saw your mother and Ricky using a hot needle on Sylvia, you did not run into the other room and tell Randy to come in that everybody was having fun with Sylvia?

A. No.

Q. That Saturday did you go and tell some other kids to come over to the house because everybody was having fun with Sylvia?

A. No, I never. I never left the house.

Q. Did you hear anyone say that?

A. No.

Q. Did you like Sylvia?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. You got along well with her?

A. Yes, I did. One time I slapped her because she flipped my brother.

Q. I did not hear.

A. She flipped my baby brother, my eight-year old brother.

Q. Is that Jimmy?

A. Yes, it it.

MR. NEDEFF: No other questions.

THE COURT: Any omitted questions?

MR. ERBECKER: Yes.

CROSS EXAMINATION (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Was your mother ever mean to any of you children?

A. Yes, she has.

Q. To you?

A. Yes, she has.

Q. Did you always obey your mother?

A. Yes.

Q. Always?

A. Always.

Q. How many kids in the neighborhood came in that house there the last two weeks before Sylvia died, about?

A. Just Randy and Richard. That is all.

Q. Just two of them?

A. Just two of them.

Q. Not somebody named Siscoe?

A. Anna Siscoe, yes.

Q. What was her name?

A. Anna Siscoe.

Q. Anybody else?

A. Judy Duke.

Q. Did you ever go out places with the kids the last two weeks and tell them what was going on?

A. I played with them but I did not tell them what was going on.

Q. Why?

A. I just thought they were punishing her.

Q. Did you talk to your father about what you were going to testify here?

A. No. I have not even seen him for the past two months.

Q. When you first saw him after Sylvia died, did you talk to him?

A. Just for a few minutes.

Q. Did you talk to him about your mother?

A. No, I never.

Q. Is it a fact, at the time when they were putting signs on that girl's body there "I am a prostitute", Marie was raking leaves out of the yard?

A. Yes, she was, her and Jenny.

Q. Have you told us everything that you can remember?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Did you have anything to do with anybody putting any of those marks on Sylvia?

A. No, one time I bruised Sylvia for calling - for what she called Stephanie and Paula.

Q. She did what?

A. Called Stephanie and Paula a prostitute.

Q. Did your mother allow other children to use bad language around that house?

A. No, she did not.

Q. In fact she made them stop when she heard it, didn't she?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Who put the S mark on Sylvia?

A. I am not sure.

Q. Were you there when it happened?

A. It was cold, that is all I knew.

Q. What?

A. It was just cold, that steel thing.

Q. Did anybody ever tell you to change you testimony?

A. No.

Q. They never have?

A. No.

Q. Everything you have told us today is true?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Is it a fact, your mother told Stephanie to give artificial respiration to Sylvia?

A. Mom did tell her to help her, to try to.

Q. Your mother did tell Stephanie to help her and that is the reason Stephanie done it?

A. That is right.

MR. ERBECKER: No further questions.

THE COURT: Any other omitted questions?

MR. BOWMAN: No.

MR. NEDEFF: I have.

CROSS EXAMINATION (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. JAMES NEDEFF, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
RICHARD HOBBS

Q. Do you know a woman that lives next door, was she in the house sometime visiting?

A. I don't know which woman you are talking about?

Q. Phyllis Vermillion?

A. I don't know her.

Q. She lives next door?

A. I have never heard of her being in the house.

Q. What about Darlene MacGuire?

A. Yes.

Q. She has been in the house?

A. Yes.

Q. Have her brother or sister been in the house?

A. Her brother, Butch.

Q. Butch was in the house how many times?

A. Once.

Q. Has Mrs. Lepper from across the street been in the house?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. Two or three times.

Q. The people that run the nursery across the street have been in the house, haven't they?

A. No.

Q. Is there a nursery across the street?

A. A church nursery for people that go to church.

Q. Have they ever been to your house?

A. No, they have not.

Q. How many times has Mrs. Lepper been there?

A. Two or three times.

Q. Mrs. Monroe?

A. About the same.

Q. How about Mr. Lepper, the wall paper hanger - he has been over there?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. What did he do in the house?

A. Nothing but talk.

Q. Did he ever paint?

A. No.

Q. He never painted in any of the rooms?

A. No.

Q. Randy and Butch - did they borrow paint and paint some of the rooms?

A. No.

Q. Did they borrow any ladders?

A. No.

Q. The Monroes - how many times have they been in the house?

A. Well, her son Mike used to play with Jimmy. Several times he stayed all night with him. He was over there several times, lots of times.

Q. Those people - when they were in the house were always able to see Sylvia, could they?

A. They couldn't, no.

Q. They could not?

A. Once in a while.

Q. Now, somebody said you lit matches or burned a piece of paper to burn the needle. They would not be telling the truth, would they?

A. No.

Q. I did not hear you.

A. No.

MR. NEDEFF: No other questions.

THE COURT: Any other omitted questions? Any re-direct?

MISS WESSNER: No re-direct.

WITNESS EXCUSED.
e-mail: webmaster@sylvialikens.com

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