Judy Darlene Duke - Neighborhood Kid

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Judy Darlene Duke - Neighborhood Kid

Postby admin » October 31st, 2010, 6:28 pm

THE COURT: Next witness, please.

WITNESS SWORN BY THE COURT.

JUDY DARLENE DUKE , a witness called on behalf of the State of Indiana,
being duly sworn by the Court, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MISS MARJORIE WESSNER,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. What is your name?

A. Judy Duke.

Q. You will have to speak up, Judy.

MR. BOWMAN: Excuse me, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, a five minute recess. Retire to the jury room and don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express an opinion until the case is finally submitted to you. A five minute recess. Jury and Alternate Jurors excused.

JURY EXCUSED.

RECESS.

THE COURT: Before we call in the jury, your name is what?

A. Judy Darlene Duke.

THE COURT: How do you spell that last name?

A. d-u-k-e.

THE COURT: How old are you?

A. Thirteen.

THE COURT: Is the State ready?

MISS WESSNER: The State is ready.

THE COURT: Are the defendants ready?

MR. BOWMAN: Yes.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury. Are there any witnesses in the courtroom? If so, you will have leave, except those who are permitted to stay.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: The State of Indiana may examine the witness.

DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED,
QUESTIONS BY MISS MARJORIE WESSNER,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. Your name?

A. Judy Darlene Duke.

Q. Where do you live?

A. 322 North Chester.

Q. How old are you?

A. Thirteen.

Q. When will you be fourteen?

A. In February.

Q. Do you go to school?

A. Yes.

Q. What school do you go to?

A. School 78.

Q. What grade are you in?

A. Sixth.

Q. Do you live close to 3850 East New York Street?

A. Yes, a street over.

Q. One street over?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know Mrs. Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did she used to live?

A. On New York.

Q. 3850 East New York?

A. I think so.

Q. How long have you lived at 322 Chester - very long?

A. Six years.

Q. About six years?

LADY IN AUDIENCE: Yes.

MR. BOWMAN: This should probably be raised in front of the bench in deference to everyone, if I may.

THE COURT: Alright.

MR. BOWMAN: (out of hearing of the jury) There is some person in the court room sitting back there coaching this witness by nods - in the black dress. We object to that. I might also add Miss Wessner appears to be shaking her head in the affirmative with other witnesses and is starting to with this one.

THE COURT: He does not want you shaking your head.

MISS WESSNER: I will try not too.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen, retire to the jury room just a second. I have got to tell you this. Don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion about the case till it is finally submitted to you.

JURY EXCUSED.

THE COURT: That lady in the blue dress, are you related to anybody here?

SPECTATOR: I am her mother.

THE COURT: So there will be no question about it, would you mind going in the other room? I am the judge, Lady, please.

SPECTATOR LEAVES THE ROOM.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Alright, next question, please.

Q. Is Mrs. Baniszewski here today, Judy?

A. Yes.

Q. Point her out, please.

A. Right there. (indicating defendant Gertrude Baniszewski)

Q. The lady in the white sweater?

A. Yes.

Q. Directing your attention to last summer, 1965, did you go over to her house?

A. Yes.

Q. How often?

A. Quite a while.

Q. Did you know her children?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you play men her children?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you know Paula Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. Is she here?

A. Yes.

Q. Point her out?

A. The one with the purple sweater. (indicating the defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski)

Q. Do you know John Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. Is he here?

A. Yes, he is. (indicating defendant John Stephan Baniszewski)

Q. And how about Coy Hubbard, do you know him?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you ever seen him at Mrs. Baniszewski's?

A. Yes.

Q. Point him out if he is here.

A. He is at the far end over there. (indicating defendant Coy Hubbard)

Q. With the white shirt and tie?

A. Yes.

Q. How about Ricky Hobbs, do you know him?

A. Yes.

Q. Is he here today?

A. Yes.

Q. Point him out.

A. Sitting by Mrs. Baniszewski. (indicating defendant Ricky Hobbs)

Q. Did you ever see him at Mrs. Baniszewski's house?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see Mrs. Baniszewski do anything to Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you know Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she live at Mrs. Baniszewski's?

A. Yes.

Q. And when did you see Mrs. Baniszewski do something to Sylvia, if you did?

A. In September, I seen Mrs. Baniszewski hit her.

Q. Alright, and where was this, where did it happen?

A. In the dining room.

Q. At Mrs. Baniszewski's house?

A. Yes.

Q. Who else was there, Judy?

A. Paula and her children. I don't know all their names.

Q. What did you see?

A. I seen her hit her with a belt.

Q. How many times?

A. About two or three times.

Q. She hit Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did she hit her?

A. You know her behind.

Q. And did she say anything to Sylvia at this time?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said. "I hate you".

Q. Did she say this more than once?

A. Yes, two or three times.

Q. Did she say anything else?

A. She said, "You are ruining my life" or something like that.

Q. Anything else?

A. No.

Q. What happened then, if anything?

A. She went in the kitchen and I did not see her go in the kitchen but she had to go in the kitchen to get the salt and she - Stephanie, I mean - Sylvia was upstairs.

Q. Is this another time you are talking about, Judy?

A. Yes.

Q. Another time?

A. Yes.

Q. When did this happen?

A. When Gertrude went in the kitchen and got some salt?

Q. What month was it, Judy?

A. In September, and she handed the salt to Paula and she went upstairs and before she handed it to her they were knocking her downstairs.

Q. Who was knocking who?

A. Paula Baniszewski and Gertrude were knocking her down the steps.

Q. Who down the steps?

A. Sylvia and she had a cut in her leg and I did not see other cuts anywhere else except on her knee and Mrs. Gertrude Wright give it to Paula and she went upstairs and took Sylvia with her and put salt on her legs, not very much though, but she rubbed it - not real hard though - and told all the kids to get downstairs. I was standing there.

Q. Was Coy Hubbard there then?

A. Yes, when she was telling them to get down the steps, Coy Hubbard said, "That ain't the way to do it" and he put more on it and rubbed it real hard.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. She just yelled.

Q. Did you see any blood?

A. Yes, on her leg, on her knee.

Q. Was this where they were putting the salt?

A. Yes.

Q. You said somebody knocked her down the steps. Who was doing this?

A. Paula and Gertrude.

Q. How many times did they do this?

A. Quite often they would do it when I was there. I don't know whether they would do it when I am not there. Sometimes they would do it when I am there.

Q. I meant this particular time in September. How many times did they knock her down?

A. I don't know. They did it quite a lot.

Q. More than once or twice?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Sylvia have any clothes on then?

A. Half on and half not.

Q. Did they do anything to her clothes?

A. They ripped them.

Q. Who ripped them?

A. Gertrude did two times and Paula did it one or two times.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski say anything to Sylvia then when this happened?

A. No, I don't believe so.

Q. Did Paula say anything to her?

A. No. You mean when she was fighting with her?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes, she was going on like that. (indicating her neck)

Q. She was trying to choke her?

A. Yes.

Q. Was this another time when they were fighting?

A. This was another time.

Q. When did this happen?

A. It was in September and it was Paula that was doing - she was choking her.

Q. Tell the court who else was there. Was anyone else there besides Paula?

A. Paula, Gertrude and Johnny and little Jimmy and little Denny.

Q. What did you see then?

A. Paula was choking her and Gertrude pulled her off two times and then she got hold of her again and she said "Just let them fight, it is their own fight".

Q. Who said that?

A. Gertrude did.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Just yelled and cried.

Q. And what happened then, Judy, if anything?

A. They were just fighting.

Q. Did Paula say anything at this time?

A. I don't remember. I think she was fighting.

Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski say anything?

A. She told her to leave her alone two times and then got hold of her again and she said, "Leave her alone, it is their own fight".

Q. Where did this take place, what part of the house?

A. In the dining room.

Q. Did they go anyplace from the dining room?

A. To the living room.

Q. What happened in the living room?

A. They was pushing her down the steps and fighting with her.

Q. Did you ever see anyone throw Sylvia down the basement steps?

A. Mrs. Wright. I did not see her throw her down. She just opened the door and I did not see her throw her down. She opened the door and Sylvia was on the steps but I never seen her throw her down. She had the door open.

Q. Did Sylvia walk down the steps?

A. Yes, I believe so. I did not hear nothing fall. She opened the door and she shut the door and she went down.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia eat at Mrs. Baniszewski's house?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Did you ever see anyone offer her food?

A. No.

Q. Do you know what Sylvia ate there?

A. Sometimes I seen her eat crackers. That is all.

Q. Did you hear Mrs. Baniszewski say anything to her when she was eating the crackers?

A. No.

MISS WESSNER: You may cross examine.

THE COURT: Defendant Gertrude Baniszewski may cross examine the witness.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. How old are you, Judy?

A. Thirteen.

Q. Everything you testified here today, you saw, did you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you go in this house every day?

A. Pardon?

Q. Would you go in Gertrude's house every day?

A. Not every day, but quite often though.

Q. Is there a dining room in that house?

A. Yes.

Q. On many occasions, you saw Gertrude try to stop other people from hurting Sylvia, didn't you?

A. Pardon?

Q. Many times you saw Gertrude stop fights between the other children and Sylvia, didn't you?

A. Not very many.

Q. How many?

A. Oh, about two or three times.

Q. Did you ever see Gertrude laugh when she was striking Sylvia?

A. No.

Q. Would she smile when she was doing it?

A. No.

Q. Would - what would she do? Would she say anything?

A. No, she was always talking to the other kids.

Q. Who was?

A. Gertrude. She lets them do what they were doing.

Q. She let them do what they were doing?

A. She would just stay out of it. She talks to other people.

Q. Did you ever see other kids do anything to Sylvia when Gertrude was not there?

A. I always seen her there when I was there.

Q. Gertrude was always there?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever - were you there any day the doctor came to see Gertrude?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see Gertrude lying down on the bed - sick?

A. One day she did not feel good. It was - she was sick, not feeling good. She was just nervous from all the kids being noisy.

Q. Did she tell you that or did you see it?

A. We knew it. She would go out on the front porch and sit on the front steps.

Q. She would go sit on the front porch?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever hear Gertrude use bad language around the house?

A. No.

Q. As a matter of fact, she told the other children not to?

A. Not to?

Q. Not to use bad language?

A. She said not to.

Q. Gertrude said not to?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you ever hear Gertrude complain of any pain herself while you were there? Did she ever say she was sick?

A. She did not tell me but she tells them and we hear her.

Q. You say she was so tired she would go out on the front porch?

A. Not that way, she just goes out there.

Q. Gertrude?

A. Yes.

Q. How often?

A. I don't know.

Q. All the time you were there?

A. No. She went out there and that is when I went home - when she was out there.

Q. Is it a fact, she told a lot of you children to stay out of the house, stay away from there?

A. No, I don't think so.

Q. She never told anybody while you were there to stay away?

A. I don't remember if she did or not.

Q. She never told you to stay away?

A. No.

Q. Who were you a friend of there, which child?

A. I believe so, she did say -

Q. Did what?

A. She did say something about they were after us. That is what Anna was telling me and I asked Stephanie when we were going to the drug store and I said, "Was your mother mad at me"? She said. "I think so. You go talk to her". That is what she said. I never did.

Q. Is it a fact Gertrude Baniszewski was constantly telling the kids to stay out of there?

A. I never did hear her.

MR. ERBECKER: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Further cross examination?

MR. ERBECKER: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski may examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. GEORGE RICE, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
PAULA MARIE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Miss Duke, when will you be fourteen?

A. February.

Q. Next February?

A. Yes.

Q. I think you testified you are presently in the 6th grade in school?

A. Yes.

Q. What sort of grades do you get in school?

A. I got one A and I got some B's and C's and D's. That is all.

Q. You have had occasion to fail to pass?

A. I think the third grade I failed.

Q. You repeated that year?

A. No.

Q. If you failed were you still passed to the next grade?

A. Let's see, I failed and I was on trial once and I passed though. You know in school the thing that tells you when you are late and the note you bring in? Some other kids were on trial and they went back and I looked when this girl that was sitting by me was checked off.

Q. You were interrogated by the police in late October in connection with this case, were you not?

A. What does he mean?

THE COURT: He wants to know if the police talked to you about this case in October?

A. I don't think the reporter did.

Q. Did you have occasion to talk to any police officer in late October with regard to this place and your knowledge of it?

A. I never seen one that had a suit on.

Q. Is it possible one has spoken to you out of uniform, wearing plain clothes?

A. I don't get what you mean.

Q. Is it possible some person who was a police officer, but who did not have to wear a uniform, talked with you about this case?

A. There was reporters, that is all.

Q. Were you taken to the police station any time in October in connection with this case?

A. Do you mean when I was at the Center?

Q. You were taken to Juvenile Center?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you held in the Center?

A. When I was in the Center and we was going to court we had to go with some policeman.

Q. Were you charged at that time when you were at the Center? Were you arrested?

A. I don't think so.

Q. You testified, in part, earlier, I believe, that you were present at the Baniszewski household sometime in September when you saw salt placed on sores and cuts on the knees of Sylvia Likens, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Who brought this salt?

A. Gertrude did.

Q. How was it brought?

A. She just walked in and handed it to her.

Q. Handed what?

A. Salt to Paula. It was Morton's.

Q. Morton's?

A. The little girl has an umbrella.

Q. What was done by Mrs. Baniszewski when she came into the room with the package of salt in her hand?

A. It was not a package.

Q. Well, box - what did she do with it?

A. She give it to Paula.

Q. Paula accepted it, took it and Paula then threw some of the salt on the knees of Sylvia?

A. She did not throw it, she put it on.

Q. How?

A. Put it in her hands, poured it on her knee.

Q. Had you had occasion to see Sylvia's knees before this was done?

A. She had skinned it. It was not bleeding till they put salt on it.

Q. Her knees were skinned?

A. They were burned, like you slide on your knee.

Q. Floor burn, perhaps, and salt was put on, and I believe you testified the amount put on there by Paula was a very small amount?

A. Not very much.

Q. After this was done by Paula, what did Sylvia do?

A. She just did like that. (grimaced)

Q. She was not pleased by it?

A. No.

Q. Was she standing when this was done?

A. No, laying down on the bed, back on her elbows.

Q. Did she shake her leg or knees any way to dislodge what had been done with the salt, try to shake it off by moving her knees?

A. No, she just let them.

Q. In your studies in school, have you ever had courses dealing in hygiene, health, any health course at all?

A. You mean Health and Safety and all that?

Q. Yes, have you had such a course - some instruction?

A. Yes.

Q. In this did you have instruction that salt can be used for medicinal purposes?

A. No.

Q. Do you know the meaning of the word "antiseptic"?

A. No.

Q. At the time you spoke of here in early September of 1965 when you saw Paula Baniszewski, did you happen to notice whether there was anything unusual about either of her hands or wrists?

A. Yes, I think she sprung her wrist.

Q. Did she have a cast on her wrist at the time you saw her?

A. No.

Q. Or a bandage of any kind?

A. I don't think so, she was just holding it like this.

Q. This was early September?

A. Yes.

Q. As far as you can tell, did she have difficulty using her hand because of some injury?

A. Yes, it was hurting her.

Q. Was she able to use her hand with any easiness at all?

A. I don't know.

Q. Which hand did she pour salt with?

A. No, that was not when she was hurt.

Q. Now, you made reference also to the fact Paula had on occasion attempted to choke Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall the date precisely when this happened, or reasonably close? Was it August, for example, or September?

A. Early or late September.

Q. Which?

A. Early, I think.

Q. Early in September, was her hand in a cast at this time?

A. No, I never seen her in a cast.

Q. Did you happen to notice whether she had the full use of the injured hand you referred to before?

A. Pardon?

Q. Was she able to use her right hand at the time you saw this?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to be there when you saw she used her left hand instead of her right?

A. No.

Q. At the time this alleged choking took place, did you notice whether she was able to use one hand alone or both?

A. I never did see her do nothing.

Q. You never saw her choked?

A. Not when she was hurt.

Q. Do you know when this injury occurred, when she got hurt originally?

A. It was in the dining room.

Q. I mean when the date and time, not the place?

A. In September.

Q. You think it was sometime in September?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there any time during the visits you made to the Baniszewski household that you noticed that the arm had been recovered, no longer hurt or pained, and could be used normally?

A. No, I don't remember that.

Q. Do you know when they took the cast off her arm?

A. I don't know if she had a cast on or not.

Q. Were you ever present when Sylvia had occasion to call Paula Baniszewski a prostitute?

A. No.

Q. You never heard that? What was the effect of this choking upon Sylvia, to which you have testified a little earlier?

MR. NEW: We object. That is for the jury - it invades their province what effect the choking had upon the deceased girl.

THE COURT: I don't think he meant it that way.

MR. RICE: I will rephrase it. I did not mean it the way I think Mr. New took it.

Q. When Paula choked Sylvia, what happened to Sylvia?

A. What do you mean?

Q. Did she fall down?

A. No, I don't think so.

Q. Did she remain standing?

A. She was against the wall.

Q. She struggled a little while?

A. They were fighting like that against the wall and she got her against the wall and she dropped her hand like that and walked off, she did.

Q. As far as you could tell, no permanent hurt or injury was done as a result of her doing this?

A. No.

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. You are quite sure of that?

A. Yes.

Q. In the course of time you were in the house, Miss Duke, did you ever have occasion to quarrel with Sylvia Likens? Did you fight with her any time?

A. No, I never did fight with her.

Q. But you testified over the course of time you saw many acts of cruelty by one person or another as against Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever discuss with your parents, after you saw these things?

A. I tried to tell mother. She was doing the dishes then. I said - I would go up to her and I said, "Mommy, they were over there beating and whipping her and fighting with her". She said - well she thought I meant she was getting a whipping for doing something bad.

Q. Did you ever mention it to any person other than your mother?

A. No, just my mother.

Q. How many times all told, do you suppose you visited the Baniszewski household and saw acts of cruelty toward Sylvia?

A. I don't know how many times.

Q. Two or twenty or fifty, as close as you can say?

A. I go over there quite a while.

Q. You were a frequent visitor?

A. Yes, all the time I go over. I mostly go on Fridays.

Q. All during this time, in spite of whatever you seen, the only time you discussed it with an outsider was when you talked to your mother?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you describe for us the nature of the cuts or scratches you referred to on the knees of Sylvia? They were not bandaged?

A. No, it was not very big.

Q. How big?

A. Just a round burn.

Q. About how big - as big across as a penny? Or a nickel?

A. A penny, but it had little bitty scratches sticking out though.

Q. I believe you said every time you visited this house, Mrs. Baniszewski was there?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she appear to you to be in charge of this household? Did you think she was in charge?

A. Yes, she was the oldest one there.

Q. Did Paula Baniszewski ever do anything to you?

A. No.

Q. That would hurt you?

A. No.

MR. RICE: I have no more, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard may examine the witness.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. FORREST BOWMAN, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANTS,
COY HUBBARD AND JOHN STEPHAN BANISZEWSKI

Q. Miss Duke, you slapped Sylvia, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. You kicked her, didn't you?

A. I tried to.

Q. Did you kick her on the leg?

A. No, I tried to. I don't know if I did or not. I turned around and kicked my foot backwards. I don't know if I kicked her.

Q. Did you say Coy Hubbard put salt on Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Was this the same time Paula did it?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember what that was?

A. It was in September. I don't know what date it was.

Q. You don't remember what day it was?

A. No.

Q. Was it after school started?

A. It was when school was going on. I don't know when it was.

Q. Was it a school day?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't remember whether it was a school day or on the weekend?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember what time of the day it was?

A. It was around - we used to get out at 3:00. Now we get out at 3:30. Sometimes, I would just go home and I would eat supper and go over to their house.

Q. Would it have been sometime after you had eaten supper and gone over?

A. Sometimes I don't eat supper, I just go over.

Q. Would this - do you remember the day Sylvia died?

A. No, I knew it was in October. I don't remember when she died.

Q. You don't know that? Do you remember a Friday when you and your mother came downtown to police headquarters?

A. I don't know.

Q. Do you know a police woman - excuse me?

A. Yes. I know a police woman. When she was - I don't know what building it was in but she had a green or blue uniform on and she was on the desk side and mother was sitting on that side and -

Q. She asked you a lot of questions about this?

A. Yes.

Q. You told her everything you knew about it?

A. Yes.

Q. You told her everything you knew about it?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she type this all down?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you sign it?

A. Yes.

Q. You did not tell her about Coy Hubbard and the salt, did you?

A. Yes, I believe I did.

Q. You see these two pieces of paper, marked Defendant's Exhibit No. "C", don't you? Would you look at those a minute? Do you recognize those?

A. Yes, that is what that lady give me.

Q. Is that the statement you gave her?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you sign that?

A. Yes.

Q. And would you look that over real careful and make sure that is everything you told her? Did you look at the other page there? Now, is that just like the paper you signed that day?

A. I think, yes.

Q. That is a photocopy of the paper you signed?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember talking to Policewoman Warner when you signed this?

A. I remember but I don't know what she looks like no more.

Q. You remember the salt?

A. Yes.

Q. You told her about Paula and the salt?

A. Yes.

Q. You did not say anything about Coy Hubbard and salt?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The statement would be the best evidence.

Q. Do you remember talking to Policewoman Warner?

MR. NEW: The State would like to ask a preliminary question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes.

Q. Everything you told her - did she put down in that statement you signed?

A. Yes.

MR. BOWMAN: The State has no objection to its introduction?

THE COURT: Are you offering it in evidence?

MR. BOWMAN: I will, Your Honor, as soon as everyone has had an opportunity to see it.

MR. RICE: We will object to the statement on the grounds it was made out of the sight and presence and hearing of the defendant.

THE COURT: Sustained as to Paula Marie Baniszewski.

MR. NEDEFF: We object for the same reason.

THE COURT: Sustained as to the defendant Richard Hobbs.

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection.

THE COURT: Sustained as to defendant Gertrude Baniszewski. Show it in evidence.

MR. BOWMAN: May I read it to the jury?

THE COURT: And read to the jury. Ladies and Gentlemen, the court has sustained objections to the exhibit as far as defendants Paula Marie Baniszewski, Richard Hobbs and Gertrude Baniszewski. You will ignore the statement and not use it as to defendants Gertrude Baniszewski, Paula Marie Baniszewski and Richard Hobbs. You may read it.

WHEREUPON DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT "C" WAS ADMITTED IN EVIDENCE,
READ TO THE JURY, AND MADE A PART OF THIS RECORD AS FOLLOWS, TO-WIT:
(admitted as to defendants Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski only)

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT "C" ATTACHED.

INDIANAPOLIS, INDIANA.
OCTOBER 29, 1965

Statement of Judy Darlene Duke, Female/White/12, of 322 North Chester, Indianapolis, Indiana, to Policewoman Harriet Warner, and Sgt. Leo Gentry, Juvenile Branch, Indianapolis Police Department, October 29, 1965.

Q. What is your name and where do you live?

A. Judy Darlene Duke, 322 North Chester.

Q. What school do you attend and what grade are you in?

A. #78, in the 6th grade.

Q. Do you know why you were requested to come to the Juvenile Branch?

A. Yes to answer questions about Sylvia Likens.

Q. Will you tell us in your own words if at anytime you punished or struck Sylvia Marie Likens?

A. Yes, about three weeks ago I was over at Gertrude Wright's, 3850 East New York Street, I slapped Sylvia Likens, on the arm, and kicked her on the leg, because Gertrude Wright, had told me that Sylvia Likens, had called me a (bitch).

Q. Have you at ever at anytime seen anyone punish or beat upon Sylvia Marie Likens?

A. Yes. About a week ago I was at the home of Gertrude Wright, when I saw Gertrude, beat Sylvia Likens with a man's belt, as Gertrude was beating Sylvia she kept saying I hate you to Sylvia, and I cannot stand you. About a week and a half ago I was at Gertrude Wright's home when I saw Gertrude knock Sylvia Likens, down the stair steps, Sylvia Likens, had then in the upstairs bedroom, and Gertrude pulled all of Sylvia's clothes off of her, ? her bra and panties. At this time Gertrude Wright, told Sylvia Likens that she was going to kill her, that she was fed up with her, because she was ruining her life. Sylvia Likens, then went back up stairs, to put some jeans and a blouse on. Gertrude said to her daughter Paula, to go upstairs, that it was her turn to knock Sylvia, down the stair step, and to pull Sylvia's clothes off. Paula, went upstairs, and kicked Sylvia Likens, down the steps, Paula ? To ? Sylvia Likens, and Gertrude Wright, told them that it was their fight. Sylvia Likens, went out into the kitchen, Paula and her got into a fight, Paula, pulled Richard pulled Sylvia's hair and knocked her to the floor. Anna Siscoe, took her finger nails down the back of Sylvia, leaving marks, causing then to bleed, and she kicked Sylvia, in the back, because she was on the floor. Anna Siscoe took her foot and kicked Sylvia Likens, in the stomach, and Sylvia, said "oh my baby", and was screaming. I could not stand anymore, and I went home. I saw Randy Lepper, hit Sylvia in the face twice, and Richard ? On the legs, and kept telling her I hate you, Anna Siscoe, told me that Richard Hobbs, was in jail, also Gertrude Wright, was in jail, and that Gertrude Wright, offered Richard Hobbs, a $1,000 if he would help kill Sylvia Likens. About a week ago, I saw Gertrude Wright, throw Sylvia Likens, sown the basement steps, and told her that where she was going to sleep, and that she was not going to get anything to eat, crackers or water, about two weeks ago, I saw Paula, Gertrude's daughter put salt on Sylvia's sores, and the cuts that they made, her mother told her to do it.

Q. Do you have anything else to add to this statement?

A. No.

Q. Do you understand that this statement can be used against you in court?

A. Yes.

Q. Were any threats or promises made to induce you to make this statement?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever been threatened by anyone for what you know about the case of Sylvia Marie Likens?

A. Yes, about ten days ago, Paula and her mother Gertrude Wright told me that they were going to get me, that they would catch me where ever I went, I heard Gertrude Wright, tell Paula, to tell me that my ass "was grass".

Q. Can you read and write English?

A. Yes.

Q. Will you sign this statement of you own free will?

A. Yes.

I have read the foregoing statement and it has been read to me by Officer Warner, and it is the truth, and I will sign the same. I was advised in the presence of my mother, by Officer Warner, that I did not have to make any statement, and that I could have an attorney.

END DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT "C".

MR. BOWMAN: May I pass it to the jury?

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen, you will ignore that statement, as read to you, as to defendants Gertrude Baniszewski, Paula Marie Baniszewski and Richard Hobbs. You will not consider or use same in arriving at a verdict as to said defendants. As you look at that exhibit, which is about to be passed to you, remember the same admonition. Ignore same and do not consider same nor use same in arriving at a verdict as to defendant Gertrude Baniszewski, Paula Marie Baniszewski and Richard Hobbs. Now, you may pass the exhibit. Let the record show the exhibit was shown to the jury.

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT "C" WAS PASSED TO THE JURY.

THE COURT: Next question, please.

Q. Did you go over to the Baniszewski home quite a bit?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see anyone there who looked like Coy Hubbard but was someone else?

A. No.

Q. Do you know Shirley Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see her do anything to Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see Gertrude Baniszewski throw Sylvia Likens down the basement steps?

A. I ain't sure if she threw her down or if she just walked down.

Q. You are not sure?

A. No.

Q. Was Coy Hubbard over there a lot?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you see him over there very often?

A. Not all the time, I did not.

Q. When would you see him over there, if you remember? Do you remember seeing him over there?

A. Yes.

Q. You do?

A. I don't know how many times I was over there.

Q. Do you remember when he would be there, when you would see him there?

A. Sometimes he was over there, I seen him. They had these things, he was taking his hand and breaking them. I remember that.

Q. What?

A. Those wooden cards.

Q. When, Miss Duke, do you remember?

A. No.

Q. Would he be there in the evening?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that when you would see him there?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that when you would see him there?

A. Yes.

Q. In the evening?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you have a regular bedtime last fall?

A. What do you mean by that?

Q. What grade were you in last fall?

A. Fifth. I don't know.

Q. Were you in the fifth grade last fall?

A. I don't know.

Q. Was there sometime every night when you were supposed to be home in bed?

A. I was supposed to be in when it gets dark.

Q. You were supposed to get in when it gets dark?

A. When it starts getting dark I have to go home.

Q. Did you do that?

A. Sometimes.

Q. Sometimes you did not?

A. Sometimes I go, sometimes I don't.

Q. What?

A. Sometimes I do.

Q. Did you ever see Coy Hubbard there it got dark?

A. I don't know. I don't know how many times I seen him over there.

Q. Did you ever see him over there in the evening before it got dark?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't remember?

A. No.

MR. BOWMAN: No more questions.

THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs may cross examine.

MR. NEDEFF: No questions.

THE COURT: Any omitted questions?

MR. ERBECKER: Yes, Your Honor.

CROSS EXAMINATION (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Was there a young lady named Anna Siscoe that used to go over there with you?

A. Yes.

Q. She used to get up on this girl too, didn't she?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she do?

A. She said you were not supposed to talk about people who are not here.

Q. She told you that?

A. I don't know her name.

Q. You mean the lady down there with the pink dress?

A. Yes.

Q. In other words, she told you not to tell the truth about everything?

MR. NEW: We object. That is not what she said at all.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What did she say not to tell in this trial?

A. She said not to talk about people that is not in here. I don't know what that word was she said. It is not in the courtroom.

Q. Did she tell you to not talk about Stephanie?

A. No, she just told me don't talk about people that is not here.

Q. Did you ever see Anna Siscoe in your presence do anything there?

A. Yes.

Q. If the judge tells you - have to answer that question, will you do it?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you see her do?

A. She kicked her and scratched her in the stomach and she said, "Oh, my baby".

Q. Oh, my baby - nothing else?

A. No.

MR. ERBECKER: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Any re-direct?

MISS WESSNER: No re-direct.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors - may I ask is there any more re-cross?

MR. BOWMAN: No more re-cross.

THE COURT: May this witness leave?

MR. NEW: Yes.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, the jury is permitted to separate. We will recess now and return at 1:30 this afternoon. During this recess for lunch, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion till the case is finally submitted to you. Don't read any newspaper articles that may appear about the case and don't listen to anything or watch anything that may be broadcast about the case. Jury and Alternate Jurors are excused till 1:30 this afternoon.

JURY EXCUSED.

RECESS.

1:30 P.M. AND THE TRIAL OF THIS CAUSE WAS RESUMED.

THE COURT: We are all here except the jury is not here. The jury is not in the court room. Any motions, Gentlemen?

MR. ERBECKER: I take it that Randy Lepper is going to take the stand next, Your Honor. If that is true, I have a motion in connection with him.

THE COURT: Show the prosecutor one and show your copy to Mr, Nedeff. Do you intend to use the named witness in the motion, Mr. New?

MR. NEW: We do.

THE COURT: Next?

MR. NEW: Next.

THE COURT: Any other motion?

MR. NEDEFF: Yes, Judge, I think. Your Honor, that some information should be given to the co-defendants here and the State here regarding the number of witnesses the State has proposed to use.

THE COURT: The jury is not in the courtroom. Make it.

MR. NEDEFF: I would like to say at this time that on the list of witnesses the State submitted is Randy Lepper, who I have represented in Juvenile Court on a matter arising out of this same incident and Judy Darlene Duke, who I represented in Juvenile Court. I think another witness the State proposes to use is Diane Shoemaker, who I represented.

THE COURT: You are not the attorney for them now, are you?

MR. NEDEFF: I believe the two Juvenile Court cases are pending in Juvenile Court. I think those cases are still pending. I think my appearance is still listed.

THE COURT: Do you think there is a conflict of interest here?

MR. NEDEFF: I don't see how, Your Honor.

THE COURT: We will take note of it. If there is a conflict of interest that arises, let us know. We will excuse the jury, what is the name of the witness - Randy Lepper? Come here Randy, put up your right hand.
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