Randy Lepper - Neighborhood Kid

For Viewing Only
Forum rules
Since some of the different parts of the trial transcript are extremely large, posting has been disabled in them. Use the Baniszewski Trial Discussions for postable topics.
 
Posts: 139  Images: 550  Joined: August 8th, 2010, 7:35 am
Location: Springfield, Illinois

Randy Lepper - Neighborhood Kid

Postby admin » October 31st, 2010, 6:26 pm

WITNESS SWORN BY THE COURT.

MR. BOWMAN: Before we proceed further, I think I should make a motion. I did not hear all Mr. Nedeff's remarks. I wonder if he could repeat whom he represents or did represent.

THE COURT: Tell him.

MR. NEDEFF: I represent this young man.

MR. BOWMAN: What is his name?

MR. NEDEFF: Randolph Lepper. He lives at 3902 New York. Did I represent you in Juvenile court?

A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: How many times was he out there with you?

A. Two or three times.

MR. NEDEFF: I secured your release?

A. Yes.

MR. NEDEFF: How long were you locked up at the Juvenile Center?

A. Two months exactly.

MR. NEDEFF: Judy Darlene Duke was out there at the same time you were out there?

A. Yes.

MR. NEDEFF: When was the last time I talked to you about this case, Randy?

A. About four months ago.

MR. NEDEFF: Your case is still pending out there?

A. Yes.

MR. NEDEFF: Have you been out there since we were out there the last time in December?

A. No.

MR. NEDEFF: I also represented Judy Darlene Duke and I know Diane Shoemaker who the state proposes to use as a witness.

MR. BOWMAN: I would like to determine on the record whether or not that is the same Judy Darlene Duke who testified this morning?

MR. NEDEFF: It is the same one, the same person.

MR. BOWMAN: Your Honor, does the record show Mr. Nedeff is representing Mr. Hobbs in this lawsuit as the court's own employee, in that capacity as a public defender?

THE COURT: That is right.

MR. BOWMAN: On the basis of those admissions, I move to withdraw the submission as to John Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard for the reason Mr. Nedeff, an attorney for a co-defendant, has consulted with me and other defense attorneys from time to time throughout these proceedings. Some of the consultations might not have gone to the extent they did had I known this. For the further reason I was not informed of this with respect to the Witness Duke until just now.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. ERBECKER: Defendant Gertrude Baniszewski joins the same motion, for the same grounds and reasons. For the further reason during the trial of this cause and shortly prior thereto, counsel for Gertrude Baniszewski did consult with Mr. Nedeff, and without imputation any wrongdoing or impropriety, facts and circumstances were discussed relative to the defense of Gertrude Baniszewski and a conflict of interest would render him incompetent at least to the portion of the testimony of Judy Duke.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. RICE: Paula Marie Baniszewski joins in the motion on the same grounds.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. ERBECKER: In addition to the grounds and reasons for the motion just filed with, Your Honor, defendant Gertrude Baniszewski further objects to the testimony of this witness, Randolph - Randy Lepper for the reason the record shows that he is a client of a court appointed attorney in this case, Mr. James Nedeff, and Mr. James Nedeff has consulted with him in the litigation in Juvenile Court concerning matters that are also the subject matter of the trial in this cause. For the further reason, that Mr. Nedeff, a court appointed attorney, now represents in this trial now progressing in this court one Ricky Hobbs is a conflict of interest and the representation of Randy Lepper does involve, in a degree, the interest of Gertrude Baniszewski. For that reason, she objects to the testimony of this witness on the stand, Randolph Lepper.

THE COURT: Do you want to qualify the witness, Mr. New, or whoever is going to do it, in the absence of the jury?

MR. LEROY NEW, QUALIFIES THE WITNESS, WHO HAS BEEN SWORN BY THE COURT
(OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY)

Q. State your name, son?

A. Randy Lepper.

Q. How old are you?

A. Twelve years old.

Q. When were you twelve?

A. I was twelve years old January 8.

Q. What year?

A. 1966.

Q. Do you go to church or Sunday School?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where do you attend?

A. Seventh Day Adventist.

Q. Where in that located?

A. On 62nd street.

Q. Do you go regularly?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Randy, do you know what it is to tell the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know what happens to people who don't tell the truth?

A. You get in trouble, sir.

Q. You raised your right hand and took an oath the judge administered. Do you know what that means?

A. It says to tell the truth and nothing but the truth.

Q. If you are asked a question and give answers to those questions, will they be the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. They will be the whole truth as best you can tell?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you understand where you are, what you are doing here?

A. Yes.

Q. What are you doing?

A. I am testifying.

THE COURT: The fact Mr. Nedeff is your lawyer - would that keep you from telling the truth in this case?

A. No, sir.

THE COURT: Any questions, Gentlemen?

MR. ERBECKER: Your Honor, defendant Gertrude Baniszewski will rest on her motion heretofore made and object to the testimony of this witness.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BOWMAN: I object to this witness testifying with Mr. Nedeff participating as a defense counsel in this case. He says he represents this eleven year old witness. He has during the course of this trial cross examined witnesses in the presence of this jury. I assume he may do it in this case. I don't see how he can reconcile those two duties, if he does. I can't see but how it would harm the rest of the defendants, including John Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard.

THE COURT: There has been a separation of witnesses in this case and I have admonished the witnesses, you are permitted to talk to the attorneys, both State and defendant, that being the proper admonition. What difference would it make if it is his attorney? He has a right to talk to the witness.

MR. BOWMAN: That is quite a bit different than confidential disclosures and duties.

THE COURT: If there comes a time there is a confidential disclosure, let me know and I will excuse the jury. Let's see if there is a confidential matter of disclosure. The motion is overruled. Let record show defendants' objection to the testimony of the eleven year old witness, or in the alternative a motion for psychiatric examination of the witness overruled. What grade are you in?

A. Sixth grade.

THE COURT: Do you go to public school?

A. Yes.

THE COURT: What kind of grades do you get?

A. C - Average.

THE COURT: Motion overruled. Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: This witness has been sworn. The State may proceed to examine the witness.

RANDY LEPPER , a witness called on behalf of the State of Indiana,
being duly sworn by the Court, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. LEROY NEW,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. State your name to the court and jury, son.

A. Randy Lepper.

Q. Where do you live?

A. 3902 East New York.

Q. How long have you lived there?

A. About three and a half years.

Q. How old are you?

A. Twelve.

Q. When were you twelve years old?

A. January 8.

Q. What year?

A. This year, sir.

Q. Do you know what it is to tell the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. If you are asked questions and give answers, will you tell the truth to the best of your ability?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Completely?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Randy, were you ever at 3850 East New York Street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who lived there, if you know?

A. Mrs. Baniszewski and the children.

Q. Do you see Mrs. Baniszewski in the courtroom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Will you indicate who she is?

A. At the end. (indicating defendant Gertrude Baniszewski)

Q. I can't hear you, Randy.

A. In back of Mr. Erbecker.

Q. Now, did she live there all the time you have lived at 3902 East New York Street?

A. No, sir.

Q. When did she move there?

A. I think about the end of July.

Q. What year?

A. Of 1965.

Q. Summer, '65, do you know any of her other children?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Indicate who are her children that you recognize?

A. Paula and John.

Q. How is Paula dressed?

A. She is dressed in a purple sweater. (indicating defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski)

Q. How about John?

A. In a dark blue shirt. (indicating defendant John Stephan Baniszewski)

Q. Now, do you know Richard Hobbs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Indicate who he is to the jury, son.

A. He has a brown coat on and a light yellow shirt and brown tie. (indicating defendant Richard Hobbs)

Q. Did you ever see him at 3850 East New York Street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know Coy Hubbard?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see him at 3850 East New York Street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Indicate to the jury if you see him - do you see him?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How is he dressed?

A. A black check coat and white shirt and black tie. (indicating defendant Coy Hubbard)

Q. Did you know Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she ever live at 3850 East New York Street?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know when she came there?

A. I think in July.

Q. What year?

A. 1965.

Q. Did she have a sister?

A. Yes.

Q. What was her name?

A. Jenny.

Q. Did she live there also?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How often during the months of September or October 1965 would you go to 3850 East New York Street, Randy?

A. About ever day, sir.

Q. Why would you go there?

A. To see Mrs. Baniszewski and her children.

Q. Do you have brothers or sisters of your own?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many?

A. I have nine brothers and one sister.

Q. Now, Randy, did you ever see anyone strike Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you recall when you first saw someone strike her?

A. I think it was in the beginning of September.

Q. Where did that happen?

A. In the Baniszewski house.

Q. Who did it?

A. I can't recall.

Q. What did you see?

MR. BOWMAN: We object, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. When else did you see somebody strike Sylvia Likens?

A. During the month of September.

Q. Where did that happen?

A. Well, in different rooms of the Baniszewski house.

Q. Who was present when that happened?

A. I guess me and the Baniszewski children and Mrs. Baniszewski.

Q. What did you see?

A. I seen her hit her.

Q. Seen who?

A. Paula and Johnny and Richard Hobbs and Coy Hubbard.

Q. What did you see Paula, John and Richard and Coy Hubbard do to her?

A. Hit her.

Q. How did they hit her, with what?

MR. RICE: We object to the form of the question, Your Honor.

THE COURT: It is a double question. Objection sustained.

Q. How did they hit her?

A. Sometimes they would slap her, sir.

Q. Randy, I am sorry, I can't hear.

A. Sometimes they would slap her, sir.

Q. What did they do at the time you are testifying about, what did you see her do?

A. They would slap her.

MR. RICE: We object to the form of the question. He is testifying about the acts of two different people.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BOWMAN: We move to strike.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The answer will go out. You will ignore the answer.

Q. What, if anything, did you see Paula Baniszewski do at the time of which you are testifying?

A. Slap her and hit her.

Q. What room of the house were you in?

A. On different occasions, different parts of the house, sir.

Q. What did Sylvia do when she slapped her?

A. She just slapped her.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. She would say "Ouch".

Q. Now, what did you see Johnny do?

MR. BOWMAN: We object unless the time is stated, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Fix the time, son.

A. Oh, it was sometime in the month of September, early, sir.

Q. Early, middle or late?

A. Early, sir.

Q. What did you see Johnny do early in September?

A. Slap her and hit her.

Q. Where were you?

A. In all parts, he hit her in all parts of the house.

Q. What did Sylvia do when he hit her?

A. She would say, "Ouch".

Q. Did he hit her with anything besides his hand?

A. Not as I saw, sir.

Q. What did you see Richard Hobbs do?

A. Hit her and burn her.

Q. When was that?

A. Let's see, the beginning - I think about the middle of October.

Q. Who was present when he burned her?

A. I and the Baniszewski children and Mrs. Baniszewski.

Q. Where were you in the house?

A. I think in the kitchen.

Q. What did Richard Hobbs do?

A. He slapped her and hit her and burned her.

Q. Slapped and hit and burned who?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Where was Sylvia at the time he did this?

A. In the kitchen.

Q. Sitting down or standing up?

A. Standing up, sir.

Q. What did he burn her with?

A. Cigarette.

Q. Richard Hobbs did that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did Mrs. Baniszewski do, if anything?

A. Slapped her.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. She just stood there.

Q. She did not walk away?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you in the kitchen at the same time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did anyone else do anything to Sylvia at that time?

A. Not that I know of, sir.

Q. Where on Sylvia's body did Richard Hobbs burn her with the cigarette?

A. I think on the arms.

Q. Did you see it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times did he burn her with a cigarette?

A. I only saw him once or twice.

Q. Was it Richard Hobbs's cigarette he had?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. Was he holding it in his hand?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see anybody else do anything to Sylvia about that time, about the middle of October?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever talk to Mrs. Baniszewski about Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you talk with her?

A. During the month of September and October.

Q. Can you fix a time in October you might have talked with Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. I'd say about the middle.

Q. Where did you talk with her?

A. In the living room.

Q. What did she say and what did you say?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained as to defendants Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

Q. Who was present to hear the conversation?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. You don't recall anyone besides Mrs. Baniszewski and yourself?

A. Maybe some of the children might have been there. I don't recall it.

Q. What did she say and what did you say?

MR. BOWMAN: Same objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. What did she say?

A. Sylvia was always getting her upset.

Q. Did she say anything else?

A. No, sir.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, you will ignore that answer and question in arriving at a verdict as to the defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard. Next question.

Q. Did you ever see Coy Hubbard do anything to Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you see this?

A. The middle of October.

Q. Where did it take place?

A. I think in the dining room.

Q. Who was present?

A. Me and Coy Hubbard and some of the Baniszewski children.

Q. What did you see Coy Hubbard do in the dining room?

A. I seen him flip her.

Q. What do you mean by that?

A. He grabbed her arms and flipped her.

Q. Where did Sylvia go?

A. On the floor.

Q. Can you describe what you mean by flipping?

A. He took her arms and threw her over his shoulders.

Q. Over his shoulders?

A. Yes.

Q. What did Sylvia - what had Sylvia done just before that?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Did you hear her say anything?

A. No.

Q. Did you see her do anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where did she land?

A. Pardon?

Q. Where did Sylvia land?

A. On the floor.

Q. Did any part of her body strike the floor?

A. I think she went down on her hands.

Q. Did she go all the way to the floor?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she say or do anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you say or do anything at that time?

A. No, sir.

Q. How many times did he flip her over his head?

A. Twice, sir, I think.

Q. Did Sylvia get up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. By herself?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Did you see anyone help her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you help her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you take hold of her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you help him flip her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did anyone else help him flip her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Coy Hubbard do anything else to Sylvia Likens any other time?

A. He hit her.

Q. What with?

A. His fist.

Q. When was that?

A. Let's see, a couple of days before.

Q. I can't hear you, Randy, speak up.

A. A couple of days before he flipped her.

Q. That would be the middle of October?

A. Yes.

Q. What part of Sylvia's body did he hit?

A. He hit her in the chest.

Q. What had Sylvia done before that?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to the form of the question.

Q. Were you there at the time he hit her?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see him hit her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Just before he hit her, did you see Sylvia do anything?

A. No.

Q. What did she do after he hit her?

A. I don't recall.

Q. How many times did he hit her?

A. Two or three times.

Q. Did you ever see anybody tie Sylvia up?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Coy Hubbard do anything else to Sylvia Likens?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see John Baniszewski do anything to Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you see?

A. He hit her.

Q. What with?

A. His fist.

Q. When was that?

A. I think about the end of September.

Q. Were you there when he hit her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What part of the house were you in?

A. In the upstairs.

Q. What did Sylvia do, if anything, just before he hit her?

A. I don't think she had done anything.

Q. What part of Sylvia's body did John hit with his fist?

A. I think he hit her in the mouth.

Q. In the mouth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Just stood there.

Q. Did you hit her then, Randy?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you hit her with?

A. My hand.

Q. Why did you hit her?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. How many times did you hit her?

A. You mean altogether, sir?

Q. At that time?

A. Just one time.

Q. One time, did you hit her with your hand or fist?

A. My hand.

Q. You don't know why you did it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hit her at other times?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times did you hit her?

A. Ten or twenty times.

Q. Ten or twenty times. Was that always with your hand or did you ever hit her with anything else?

A. No, sir, always with my hand.

Q. Over what period of time did you hit Sylvia, Randy?

A. Over September and October?

Q. During September and October?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, what else, if anything, did you ever see Johnny do Sylvia?

A. That is all.

Q. Did you ever see Richard Hobbs do anything to Sylvia?

A. Except for burning her and slapping her.

MR. NEDEFF: We object. I think he has already gone into that.

MR. NEW: The question was - did he see anything else.

THE COURT: Did you understand? Did you see anything else besides what you have already said?

A. No, sir.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

Q. Did you see Paula Baniszewski do anything to Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she do?

A. I think she slapped her.

Q. When was that?

A. During September, about the middle of September, sir.

Q. Did she slap her with her hand?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Paula do anything else to Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now did you ever see Paula wearing a cast on her arm?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. It was - I would say about a week after the Baniszewskis moved into the house.

Q. Did you ever talk to Paula about that?

A. I asked her what happened?

Q. What did she say?

A. She said that she slugged Sylvia.

Q. Is that all she said?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Gertrude Wright or Baniszewski do anything to Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you see her do?

A. I seen her slap her.

Q. When did she do that?

A. During the August and September and October.

Q. How many times did you see Gertrude Baniszewski slap Sylvia?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. More than once?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see her do anything else to Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you see her do?

A. Push her down the steps.

Q. What steps.

A. Down, I think it was the basement steps.

Q. How did she do that?

A. Just shoved her.

Q. Where was Sylvia standing when she was shoved.

A. I think at the top of the basement steps.

Q. What did Sylvia do after she got shoved?

A. She was about half unconscious.

Q. When did this take place?

A. I think it was in late September.

Q. Who was there when she did that?

A. I can't recall.

Q. Just before Gertrude pushed her down the steps, what did Sylvia do?

A. She might have said something to her. I don't know.

Q. You don't recall?

A. No.

Q. What did Sylvia do after she got pushed down the steps?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you go down in the basement?

A. I think so.

Q. After she got pushed down the steps?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you see?

A. I seen her laying on the floor.

Q. Where, with reference to the basement?

A. At the end of the steps.

Q. What happened then?

A. I can't recall.

Q. Did you help her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was she conscious?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she say anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where did you go?

A. I think I went home.

Q. Did you go clear down in the basement or just on the stairs?

A. I think clear down.

Q. You went clear down?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you stay in the basement long?

A. No.

Q. Was Sylvia still there when you left the basement?

A. Yes, I think so, sir.

Q. Did she get up before you left?

A. I am not sure.

Q. Where, particularly, was she laying with reference to the stairway?

A. At the end of the stairway.

Q. I am sorry, I could not hear.

A. At the end of the stairway.

Q. Now, what else, if anything, did you ever see Gertrude Baniszewski do to Sylvia Likens?

A. That is all.

Q. Did you ever talk with Gertrude about Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said that Sylvia was getting on her nerves.

Q. Did she tell you anything else?

A. Well, she told Paula one time "If you don't get her out of the house, I am going to kill her".

Q. When did she say that?

A. At that time.

Q. Do you remember when that was, as best you can recall?

A. I think it was the middle of October.

Q. Did you ever hear anyone else say anything about Sylvia?

MR. ERBECKER: We object to that as far as Gertrude Baniszewski is concerned. In the presence of these defendants?

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

A. No, sir.

Q. Randy, you stated you hit Sylvia ten to twenty times. When was the last time you hit her?

A. A couple of days before she died.

Q. Where was she?

A. In the kitchen.

Q. Who was there in the kitchen when you hit her?

A. Some of the Baniszewski children and Mrs. Wright and Richard Hobbs.

Q. Why did you hit her that time?

A. Well, Mrs. Baniszewski had just got done saying that she had to pay some money because of Sylvia getting her nerves, she had to go to the doctor's office.

MR. NEW: Read that answer back.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST ANSWER.

Q. Is that why you hit her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times did you hit her two days before she died?

A. One time. I slapped her one time, sir.

Q. Did anyone else hit her at the time - at that same time when you were there?

A. No, sir.

Q. You were the only one that hit her?

A. I think so.

Q. Did you see anyone else do anything else?

MR. RICE: We object.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

Q. Did you see anyone else do anything to Sylvia at this same time you hit her?

A. I don't think so, sir.

Q. Were you there on Tuesday, October 26, the day Sylvia died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you go to school that day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time did you get home?

A. About a quarter till 4:00.

Q. What time did you go to the Baniszewski house?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is assuming something that not in evidence.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you go to the Baniszewski house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time?

A. It was about a quarter till 5:00.

Q. A quarter till 5:00?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When you got there, who did you see?

A. Mrs. Baniszewski answered the door.

Q. Did you go inside?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who did you see then?

A. No one.

Q. No one else was home?

A. No, she said -

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Why?

MR. BOWMAN: He is about to testify to something she said. It would be hearsay.

THE COURT: On whose behalf?

MR. BOWMAN: John Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski unless it is shown they were present.

MR. ERBECKER: We are going to object.

THE COURT: Sustained unless it is shown Gertrude Baniszewski was present.

Q. When you said Mrs. Baniszewski opened the door, who are you referring to?

A. Mrs. Wright.

Q. Point her out, please.

A. She is in back of Mr. Erbecker. (indicating defendant Gertrude Baniszewski)

Q. That is the woman you said opened the door and said something to you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she say?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to Coy Hubbard and John Baniszewski. Overruled since it appears Gertrude Baniszewski was there, as to defendant Gertrude Baniszewski.

Q. What did she say?

A. She told me Sylvia came back?

Q. Sylvia came back?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. From where?

A. Well a few days before that they said that -

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

A. The last couple of days Mrs. Baniszewski said Sylvia was getting on her nerves too much and she was - I think she asked Richard Hobbs and some of her children to take Sylvia and lose her.

Q. And what else did Mrs. Baniszewski say after she opened the door on the 26th, about a quarter of 5:00?

A. She said that -

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Same ruling as to John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard.

Q. Go ahead.

A. She said that Sylvia came back.

Q. What did you say?

A. I said. "she did"?

Q. What did she say?

A. She said, "Yes".

Q. Where did you go then?

A. I went to the foot of her steps.

Q. What steps?

A. Mrs. Baniszewski's home.

Q. Where in the home?

A. Going toward the basement.

Q. Did you go down in the basement?

A. No, I was standing at the foot of the steps.

Q. What, if anything, did you see?

A. I seen John spraying Sylvia with a hose.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, you will ignore the answer and the question that caused the answer, what was said between this witness and Gertrude Baniszewski insofar as same pertains to Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski. You will not use same or consider same in arriving at a verdict as to said two defendants, Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

Q. Where was Sylvia when John was spraying her with the hose?

A. She was laying on the floor of the basement.

Q. Where in the basement?

A. About the middle of the basement.

Q. About the middle of the basement?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you been to the basement, Randy?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When you go downstairs, which way do you turn to go where Sylvia was laying?

A. You turn to the left and go down.

Q. After you are down the steps, which way do you go to get to where Sylvia was laying?

A. You just turn to the left and should be there.

Q. At the bottom of the stairs and to the left?

A. Yes.

Q. What was she laying on?

A. She was laying on her stomach.

Q. How was she dressed?

A. She had on a pair of bermuda shorts.

Q. Was she moving?

A. She tried to move and put her head toward me.

Q. Did she make any sound?

A. She mumbled something.

Q. Could you understand it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where was John standing while he was spraying her with the hose?

A. Right by her.

Q. How close?

A. I would say a foot.

Q. What part of her body was he putting the water out of the hose?

A. All over.

Q. Was anyone else down there that you could see?

A. No, sir.

Q. Whose hose was he using?

A. Mine.

Q. Where did he get it?

A. Well that afternoon Mrs. Baniszewski asked me if she could borrow our hose. She said she was going to clean out the basement that day.

Q. Did you bring a hose?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who did you give it to?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Where did you take it?

A. I just handed it to either one of the children - they just took it down.

Q. Down where?

A. To the basement.

Q. Did you go down in the basement while John was spraying Sylvia?

A. Just to the foot of the stairs.

Q. How long did you stand there?

A. A few minutes.

Q. Then where did you go?

A. I went upstairs. I think Paula was talking to her girl friend.

Q. What did she say?

A. They were talking about something.

Q. Did she say anything to you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did anyone else say anything to you in the presence of any of these people here?

A. Well. Mrs. Baniszewski said that - she told me - she said that -

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said that for me and her girl friend to leave because they were going to bring Sylvia up and give her a bath.

Q. Did you do that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you go?

A. We went out on the front porch.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, you will ignore the answer and the question to which the answer was given as to the conversation in arriving at a verdict as to defendants Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski. Next question, please.

Q. Where did you go?

A. We went out on the front porch.

Q. Who is we?

A. Me and Paula's girl friend.

Q. How long did you stay on the porch?

A. I would say between twenty and twenty-five minutes.

Q. Then where did you go?

A. Well, when me and Paula's girl friend went out on the front porch, Paula left and went to the drug store or somewhere. When she came back she said, "What are you standing around here for"? I said, "Your mother wants us to, she is going to give her a bath".

Q. Did you ever go back in?

A. Yes, for a few minutes, sir.

Q. About what time was that?

A. Fifteen minutes to 6:00.

Q. What did you do then?

A. Well, when Paula let us in, I think Mrs. Baniszewski said, "You children had better go out because we are not finished yet".

Q. Then what did you do?

A. Then me and her girl friend went back on the front porch.

Q. Did you go back in the Baniszewski house again that day?

A. Yes, for about three or four minutes.

Q. What time was it when you went back in?

A. It was about ten till 6:00.

Q. Where did you go?

A. I went and walked into the living room and I asked - I think I asked Mrs. Baniszewski who was moaning and she said it was Sylvia.

Q. Did you hear her moaning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was it coming from?

A. It sounded like it was coming from upstairs.

Q. What was Mrs. Baniszewski doing at the time?

A. I can't recall.

Q. Did you see her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You said she spoke to you. Where was she standing when she spoke to you?

A. I think it was at - in the living room.

Q. She told you it was Sylvia?

A. Pardon?

Q. She told you it was Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What else did she tell you, if anything?

A. She said - I think she said that - I am not for sure.

Q. You are not sure?

A. No.

Q. Where did she go?

A. I think she just stayed there in the living room.

Q. Was she standing or sitting?

A. Sitting.

Q. What was she doing, if anything?

A. I think she was knitting.

Q. At the time she was knitting, did you hear the moaning from upstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you stay there then, Randy?

A. For about three minutes, sir.

Q. Did you see or hear anything else besides what you have testified here?

A. Well, I seen Richard Hobbs coming down from the stairs, downstairs from the upstairs, down to the living room.

Q. What else did he do or say, if anything?

A. Nothing, sir.

Q. Where did he go?

A. When I left he was still sitting in the chair in the living room.

Q. Who else was sitting in the living room at that time?

A. I think Mrs. Baniszewski and Paula and Richard Hobbs.

Q. Where was Paula sitting. What was she doing?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you still hear the noise, the moaning from upstairs?

A. Before I left - when I left?

Q. Yes.

A. I don't think so.

Q. Do you recall whether you still heard it when Richard Hobbs came downstairs?

A. No, I don't recall.

Q. You don't know? Did you hear Paula say anything at that time?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see Stephanie at that time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know Stephanie?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then after you left did you ever come back to the Baniszewski home that day?

A. Well, when I went to straighten up the living room, when I came out a lot of police cars were there and then when I was looking around the neighborhood I seen Mrs. Baniszewski's dog - you know, running out like he was lost or something like he got out and so then I just took him by the collar and just walked him in the living room and left. I asked the police if I could go in the house to give them back the German Shepherd and he said "yes".

Q. Did you see any of the people who are defendants at that time?

A. I think I seen Mrs. Baniszewski.

Q. Did you speak to her or did she speak to you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Randy, you said two days before Sylvia died you hit her once when she was standing in the kitchen.

A. Yes.

Q. At that time did you see marks on her body?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you see?

A. Burn marks, scratch marks, burns and bruises.

Q. Were there many?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you see them, on what part of the body?

A. On her legs and on her arms.

Q. Did you put any of those marks on her body, Randy?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Did you ever hit her with anything besides your hand?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever burn her?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever cut her?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever scratch her?

A. No, sir.

MR. NEW: Cross examine.

THE COURT: Defendant Gertrude Baniszewski may cross examine the witness.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Randy, you told us everything you saw out there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Has anyone told you to say something that was not true about that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Are you telling us today what you remember or what someone told you to testify to?

A. I am telling you what I remember.

Q. What you remember. Now, is it a fact, Randy, that you struck Sylvia about forty times?

A. Thirty or forty times.

Q. Thirty to forty times, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So when you said around twenty or thirty you meant thirty to forty?

A. Twenty, thirty or forty.

Q. So many times you don't remember?

A. No, sir, it is not that.

Q. You kicked her too, didn't you, Randy?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times?

A. Two or three time.

Q. Is that the day she died?

A. No, sir.

Q. Two days before she died?

A. It was about a week.

Q. A week before she died?

A. Yes.

Q. I think you testified that Sylvia had - that Gertrude told you Sylvia made her upset and she had to go to the doctor?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did she tell you that?

A. It was a few days before Sylvia died.

Q. And on several occasions Gertrude - Mrs. Baniszewski told you that these kids or this girl is driving me crazy or words to that occasion?

A. Pardon?

Q. On several occasions Gertrude said this girl -

A. She said, "This girl is driving me crazy".

Q. Meaning Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia do anything out of order there?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see her do anything at all?

A. I seen her studying sometimes.

Q. What - have you any idea - did you ever see the girl do anything that would cause Mrs. Baniszewski to say "this girl is driving me crazy"?

A. No, sir.

Q. She did not do anything at all, did she - Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. She never did do anything at all to merit her getting slapped and treated like that, did she?

A. I don't think so.

Q. How many times did Gertrude say, "This girl is driving me crazy"?

A. Once or twice.

Q. The same day?

A. Not as I know of, sir.

Q. Did you ever hear Gertrude say. "Someone call the police, this girl is driving me crazy"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. A few days before Sylvia died.

Q. Was that on different occasion than what you testified here before?

A. Pardon?

Q. Was that a different time she said that?

A. I think so.

Q. Two or three times Gertrude said "This girl is driving me crazy" - would that be right?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know of your own knowledge whether or not Gertrude did go to the doctor on account of her nerves?

A. I don't know.

Q. You were only told that, you don't know?

A. Well, Mrs. Baniszewski said that Stephanie had to go to the doctors and I was over there for a few minutes when Stephanie left with Paula to go to the doctor and Coy Hubbard was accompanying Stephanie.

Q. Did you testify a while ago Gertrude was nervous, or said she was nervous?

A. She was nervous.

Q. You saw she was?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know?

A. Because my Mom had eleven children and I can tell when a person is nervous.

Q. Are you the oldest or youngest child?

A. I am the youngest.

Q. Did your brothers and sisters ever go to this house?

A. My brother went to get me a couple of times, about a minute. He knocked on the door. I think he came about two feet in the room, the living room and got me and I just left.

Q. Were you ever there at that house when people other than these children came there?

A. Well, I was there when - I think Mrs. Baniszewski's sister-in-law was there.

Q. Sister-in-law?

A. Yes.

Q. What is her name?

A. I think her name was Rosie or something like that.

Q. Rosie?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you there when a girl named Siscoe was there?

A. Yes.

Q. What is her name?

A. Anna.

Q. Do you know her?

A. Yes.

Q. How old is she?

A. Thirteen or fourteen.

Q. Does she live in the neighborhood?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she ever do anything to Sylvia in your presence?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What, when and where and what did she do?

A. About the middle of - I guess about the beginning of October she - someone told Anna that Sylvia called her mom a name.

Q. What did Anna do and - what did Anna Siscoe do?

A. She got very mad and started hitting on her.

Q. Hitting on who?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Was that on only one occasion?

A. I only seen one occasion.

Q. What did you see her do?

A. I seen her beat up on her, scratch her all the way across the back.

Q. Did she have her clothes on?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How did she scratch her back?

A. I guess she ripped her blouse.

Q. Did you see it?

A. The things on her back, yes, sir.

Q. They were marks from a nail?

A. No, they looked like finger nail marks.

Q. Where was Gertrude when this was going on?

A. I think she was in the dining room.

Q. Did you ever see Gertrude when she was lying down?

A. On the couch.

Q. Did you ever hear her say she was sick?

A. Yes.

Q. When and where?

A. Quite a few times.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said she did not feel good.

Q. Did she complain of anything specific wrong with her?

A. She said sometimes it was just nerves but two or three times she said it was because of Sylvia.

Q. You said quite a few times - do you mean more than two or three?

A. Two or three, something like that.

Q. You said you went to the house about every day, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Starting when?

A. When Mrs. Baniszewski started living there I came over there about one or two times every other day and then I started to go to the park with her family, with John.

Q. That started sometime the latter part of July?

A. Yes, the latter part of July.

Q. Is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. After that you started going there about every day?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see an insurance man come out to the house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When and where was that?

A. This was two or three days after I met the Baniszewski children.

Q. Two or three days after you met them?

A. Yes.

Q. July or August?

A. The latter part of July.

Q. What did you see at that time?

A. Well, this is when Paula Marie told me that -

MR. RICE: We object. It is hearsay.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Just what you saw, not what was said.

A. I seen Paula Baniszewski. She was sitting in a chair holding her arm and it looked like it was pretty swollen.

Q. The insurance man - you said you saw an insurance man?

A. Stephanie went and called the insurance man. He was there in fifteen or twenty minutes.

Q. Were you there?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw the man?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was Gertrude there at that time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was Sylvia there at that time?

A. You mean in the living room where Paula was?

Q. Any place, was she in the house?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Was she downstairs or upstairs?

A. Upstairs.

Q. Did you ever ask Sylvia why she did not go away and leave there?

A. Pardon?

Q. Did you ever ask Sylvia why she did not go away from that house and leave it?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Can you remember the approximate date when Gertrude said, "Someone call the police, this girl is driving me crazy", do you know what month it was?

A. I think the middle of October.

Q. Who was there when she said that?

A. Mrs. Baniszewski said that, sir.

Q. Yes.

A. Let's see, it was me and Mrs. Baniszewski and some of her children.

Q. Was anybody there you see here at the counsel table at that time when Gertrude said for someone to call the police?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was there?

A. Paula and I think just Mrs. Baniszewski.

Q. You saw Gertrude Baniszewski about every day, did you, after the latter part of July, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times would you say she complained or said she was sick?

A. Five or six times.

Q. Did she look sick to you?

A. Yes.

Q. How did she look?

A. Well, in the latter part of October, before Sylvia died, one day I came over there and her face was all broken out.

Q. Whose face was all broken out?

A. Mrs. Baniszewski's.

Q. What was the matter with her, do you know?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What did she say, if anything, about it?

A. She said she did not know what made her break out.

Q. Anything else you observed about her appearance in October, 1965?

A. No, sir.

Q. How did she look to you with reference to her weight? Was she heavy or skinny? Was there any difference?

A. She was a middle sized woman.

Q. Did she ever complain to you or say anything to you about her physical condition at that time?

A. Pardon?

Q. Did she ever talk to you about how she felt at that time?

A. Just said she did not feel good at all.

Q. How many times did she say that in October?

A. A couple of times.

MR. ERBECKER: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. GEORGE RICE, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
PAULA MARIE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Is it correct to say, Randy, you were a visitor at the Baniszewski household almost daily during the course of July, August, September and on into October?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was this because you were having school vacation at that time?

A. Yes, and a few times I helped straighten the house. One time I cleaned the kitchen. A couple of other times I helped straighten it.

Q. Do you recall the date on which you first saw Paula Baniszewski wearing a cast on her arm?

A. A few days after I met the Baniszewski family.

Q. I believe you say, to the best of your recollection, it was late in the month of July?

A. Yes.

Q. On which arm was the cast?

A. I think on the right arm.

Q. Whatever she did had to be done with her left hand while the cast was on?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You stated in a previous response to a question that you saw Paula slap and hit Sylvia on or about the 15th day of September, is that correct?

A. Not just all on that one day, sir.

Q. That was one day on which you saw her slap and hit her, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. On that occasion, where did the slapping and hitting occur?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. You don't recall whether it was downstairs or upstairs?

A. No, sir.

Q. On this occasion can you recall whether or not the cast had been placed on Paula Baniszewski's right hand - was still there?

A. On what date?

Q. Was the cast still on her arm at the time you spoke about, September 15th?

A. I don't think so.

Q. It had been removed by that time?

A. I think so.

Q. Can you tell us about how far back from that date the cast had been removed?

A. The cast was only two or three weeks.

Q. On this occasion, when Sylvia was slapped and struck at, can you recall where Paula and Sylvia were standing or seated?

A. No, sir.

Q. Can you recall which hand was used by Paula when she struck or slapped on that occasion?

A. No, sir.

Q. Can you recall how many times the slap was given?

A. On just that one occasion?

Q. On that occasion?

A. About two or three times.

Q. Was it done with the flat of the hand or otherwise?

A. Just the flat of the hand.

Q. You don't recall which hand it was done with?

A. No, sir.

Q. In either case it was done with the left hand, the injured hand was not used, is that correct?

A. I -

Q. It had to be one or the other, didn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. In the course of time you were in this household, you implied you saw other occasions when Paula slapped this girl?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. On those occasions, were you able to tell whether the blow was a slap?

A. Pardon?

Q. Was the blow a slap on each of these occasions, as far as you can recall?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. Tell us the approximate number of times this occurred.

A. What, the slapping?

Q. Yes, how many times was she slapped?

A. By Paula?

Q. Yes.

A. Five or six times.

Q. Was there ever a slap that was given sufficiently hard to knock Sylvia down?

A. Not as I seen, sir.

Q. You never seen Sylvia get knocked down as a result of any of these slaps?

A. No, sir.

Q. Tell us what part of the body was slapped on any particular occasion, can you?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to see Paula smoke?

A. Well, I -

Q. Yes or no, do you remember any time you ever saw her smoke?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't recall ever seeing her smoke?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to see Paula scratch Sylvia?

A. Pardon?

Q. Did you ever have occasion to see Paula scratch Sylvia?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to see Paula cut her?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never did?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to see Paula burn her any way?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to see Paula strike her with any object other than her hand?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not?

A. No, sir.

Q. Are you presently under arrest for your participation in this?

A. Am I presently under arrest? I don't know, sir.

Q. You don't know?

A. No.

Q. Can you recall whether or not you were arrested when the police first came to that neighborhood to investigate this alleged crime?

A. No, let's see - Thursday night, a couple of days after Sylvia died, the phone rang and I answered and a man said, "May I speak to your father" so my dad said it was a police officer. He said to be at Juvenile Branch the next morning at 8:00 or 9:00 o'clock.

Q. Did you go?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you possess a wrist watch?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were there any clocks downstairs in the Baniszewski household?

A. No, sir.

Q. How do you know it was 5:45 o'clock when the police came, as you testified earlier - on the day of the girl's death?

A. I did not say that.

Q. I think you did.

MR. NEW: The State agrees with the witness.

THE COURT: Objection of the State sustained.

Q. Did you say anything concerning the hour of 5:45 and carrying of Sylvia upstairs to take a bath?

A. It was about.

Q. You could answer yes or no, Randy.

A. I don't understand.

Q. I asked you whether or not you recall stating previously while on the stand here that at 5:45 o'clock in the afternoon some members of this household carried Sylvia upstairs to take a bath, at which time you and a girl friend of Paula's were asked to step out on the porch. Do you recall saying that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you recall saying Mrs. Baniszewski asked you and the girl friend of Paula's to step out on the porch?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was the reason you were asked to step out on the porch?

A. She said they were going to take Sylvia up and give her a bath.

Q. Do you recall stating what time this happened?

A. I don't recall.

Q. You don't recall?

A. No, sir, that was the time I came into the house, me and Paula's girl friend.

Q. This was before the time of taking the bath?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know it was 5:45?

A. Because I looked right at the clock. They have a clock in the living room.

Q. Did you just say previously there was no clock downstairs?

A. I said in the living room.

Q. There was a clock in the living room?

MR. NEW: We object. He said in the living room.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. He is arguing with the witness. Next question please.

Q. The only reaction you heard from Sylvia at the time, September 15, when you referred to the slapping, was that Sylvia said, "Ouch", is that correct?

A. Yes.

MR. RICE: No further questions.

THE COURT: Defendant John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard may examine the witness.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. FORREST BOWMAN, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANTS,
COY HUBBARD AND JOHN STEPHAN BANISZEWSKI

Q. How old are you, Randy?

A. Twelve.

Q. You say you hit Sylvia yourself somewhere between ten and forty times?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you been indicted for First Degree Murder?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. BOWMAN: I'd like to be heard on that, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Is there an indictment pending against you now?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

A. No, sir.

MR. BOWMAN: No further questions.

MR. ERBECKER: The defendant would like to have a short recess for personal reasons.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen - wait a minute. Can we see if the defendant Richard Hobbs wants to cross examine?

MR. NEDEFF: Yes, Judge. I only have a few questions.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. JAMES NEDEFF, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
RICHARD HOBBS

Q. Randy, you are back in School 78?

A. Yes.

Q. You have been back how long?

A. Since January 3, since I got out on December 28 and Christmas vacation was still going on, till January 3.

Q. How long did they keep you in there at the Juvenile Center?

A. Two months.

Q. You got out right before Christmas?

A. No, three days after.

Q. Three days after Christmas?

A. Yes.

Q. You missed all that school?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, Randy, you told some of these gentlemen here that you hit Sylvia. Why did you hit her?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. Did anyone tell you to hit her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know why you did it?

A. Pardon?

Q. Do you know why you did it?

A. No.

Q. One time you hit her was that because - you said something about $35.00 somebody had to pay?

A. Yes, sir, Mrs. Baniszewski.

Q. What did she have to do - what was it about $35.00?

A. Well, I think Mrs. Baniszewski went to the doctor the early part of October. It was because of her nerves.

Q. Did she have to pay $35.00 to the doctor?

A. No, she said - I think it cost around $20.00 and $15.00 for Stephanie to go to the doctor.

Q. This was $20.00 for Gertrude Baniszewski and $15.00 for Stephanie?

A. Yes, rounding out $35.00.

Q. Is that when she told you to hit Sylvia?

MR. NEW: We object, there is nothing like that in the record.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. That is not proper cross examination. The jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict.

Q. Who else was at the Juvenile Center?

A. Anna Siscoe, Judy Duke and Mike Monroe.

Q. Any one else?

A. John was there for about a couple of weeks.

Q. John Baniszewski?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you any time at the Guardian's Home?

A. No.

Q. Was any one else kept at the Guardian's Home?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Were you ever at the Guardian's Home yourself?

A. No.

MR. NEDEFF: No other questions.

MR. ERBECKER: A couple of omitted questions?

THE COURT: Alright.

CROSS EXAMINATION (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Now, Randy, after the latter part of July you were there practically every day?

A. Yes.

Q. Would that be early in the morning?

A. I would come over about 9:00.

Q. Did you go there at noon time?

A. Yes.

Q. Sometimes in the evening, too?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see much food around there?

A. They had to have for the children.

Q. I did not hear your answer?

A. They had to have food for the children.

Q. Did you ever hear anybody complain about not having enough food, any of them?

A. I don't think so.

Q. How about Sylvia, did she complain?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Did Gertrude ever complain about not having enough food?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did Gertrude work?

A. No.

Q. Was she home every day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did anyone work around there?

A. Paula had a job for about a month.

Q. Doing what?

A. She was working, I think at a fountain at one of the drug stores.

Q. She was only working for about a month?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Nobody else worked?

A. No.

MR. ERBECKER: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Any further omitted questions on behalf of the defendants?

MR. BOWMAN: None here.

THE COURT: Mr. Nedeff?

MR. NEDEFF: None at all.

THE COURT: State, any re-direct?

MR. NEW: Nothing further, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, a ten or fifteen minute recess. If you leave the jury room, remember by agreement of parties and with the consent of the State and defendants given in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. Get back to the jury room at 3:30 today. During the recess, do not talk about this case among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express an opinion on the case till it is finally submitted to you. Don't read any newspaper articles that may appear about the case and don't watch anything or listen to anything that may be broadcast about the case. Court will remain in session. Jury and Alternate Jurors are excused.

JURY EXCUSED.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

THE COURT: We are in recess. All lawyers be back at 3:30.

RECESS.

THE COURT: Bring the defendants out. Bring in the jury.
e-mail: webmaster@sylvialikens.com

Return to Baniszewski Trial Transcript

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

cron