WITNESS SWORN BY THE COURT.
ROY JULIAN , a witness called on behalf of the State of Indiana,
being duly sworn by the Court, testified as follows:
QUESTIONS BY MISS MARJORIE WESSNER,
Q. State your name.
A. Roy Julian.
Q. Where do you live?
A. 3522 Pixley Court.
Q. What is your profession?
A. I am a Minister.
Q. What church?
A. Grace Memorial Baptist, 1454 North Alabama Street.
Q. Do you know Mrs. Gertrude Baniszewski?
Q. Is she present today?
Q. Would you point her out?
A. Her. (indicating the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski)
Q. The lady in the white sweater?
Q. Do you know Paula Baniszewski?
Q. What is she wearing?
A. A purple sweater. (indicating defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski)
Q. Do you know John Baniszewski?
Q. Would you point him out, please?
A. He has a blue shirt on. (indicating defendant John Stephan Baniszewski)
Q. Do you know the other Baniszewski children?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Does Mrs. Baniszewski attend your church?
A. Mrs. Baniszewski?
Q. Did any of the Baniszewski children?
A. All of them.
Q. Did you know Sylvia Marie Likens?
Q. Did you know her sister, Jenny Likens?
Q. How did you know them?
A. Through the attendance they had in our church.
Q. Did they come with the Baniszewski children?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. By what means did they come?
A. On one of our church buses.
Q. Did Jenny Likens attend Sunday School?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. Did Sylvia?
Q. What about the Baniszewski children, did they attend?
A. Very faithfully, yes.
Q. During the time that Jenny attended your Sunday School, was this regular?
Q. Do you know when she and Sylvia began coming to Sunday School?
A. The first occasion I remembered was during the month of July and it was on special occasion and we thought a meeting would last all day and it broke up the middle of the day and we had to provide extra transportation for some that did not have it.
Q. What was the special occasion?
A. Singing and afternoon dinner.
Q. Was food served?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Did Sylvia attend Sunday School regularly?
A. According to the record, I would say she did for about a month or six weeks. After that our records show that maybe she was there once or so during the three or four weeks period.
Q. Was she there August 22, 1965?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. Did you see her on that day?
Q. Was Jenny Likens there?
Q. Were any of the Baniszewski children there?
Q. Did anything particular happen that day?
A. Yes, it did.
MR. ERBECKER: We object.
THE COURT: Objection sustained as to Gertrude Baniszewski. Overruled as to the persons named.
Q. What happened at this time, sir.
MR. ERBECKER: Same objection.
THE COURT: Same ruling. I will admonish them.
Q. What happened, sir?
A. On August 22 - on that Sunday we always give a public invitation at the close of every service to give people an opportunity to come publicly to accept Christ the Savior or be dealt with on any spiritual problems they have. According to the records - and I have a copy of the card fined out by both Jenny and Sylvia - both came forward publicly during the morning service.
Q. Did you have conversation with any of the Baniszewski children on that date?
THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen, you will ignore the question and answer in arriving at a verdict as to the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski. Read the question.
THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Did any of them accompany Sylvia when she came forward that date?
Q. Who was it?
A. I remembered Paula and Stephanie both coming when the two Likens girls came. Usually, someone comes forward with them. On that day Paula and Stephanie came forward.
Q. Do you personally recall Sylvia coming forward that day?
Q. Was something said?
A. Yes, we asked them questions at the close of the service, after we finished counseling. We asked each to stand publicly. From the cards turned in, I ask certain questions. I remembered these two girls.
Q. Do you remember what Sylvia said?
A. She answered the question the same as everybody else.
Q. Do you recall what she said?
MR. ERBECKER: We object.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
Q. Did you ever visit the Baniszewski home, sir?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Were these of a confidential nature?
A. No, sir.
MR. BOWMAN: We object because of the law.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
Q. When did you visit?
A. I visited several times, but two times at least between August 22 and the date that Sylvia was found dead.
Q. Directing your attention to your first visit, who was there then?
A. Mrs. Baniszewski was there on the first visit.
Q. Anyone else?
A. The children were there.
Q. Which children?
A. Some of the Baniszewski children. Some were playing and some were in the house. They were coming in and out. I spoke to several of them and I remembered several of the little ones, James, Shirley. It was also on that occasion that Jenny was also there.
Q. Did you see Sylvia?
Q. Did you ever see Sylvia on any of your visits there?
Q. Did you have conversation with Mrs. Baniszewski on this first visit?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was said?
MR. BOWMAN: Both defendants object.
THE COURT: Sustained as to defendants Coy Hubbard and John Baniszewski.
Q. You may answer.
A. I spoke to her and first of all about her own spiritual condition and then she discussed some problems that she was having, financial and physical problems and then she discussed also the problem she was having with Sylvia.
Q. What did she say and what did you say?
A. She mentioned one of the problems with Sylvia was skipping school and was causing her a lot of problems and this was in general and also that she had been making some advancement on older men for money and I talked with her about it and -
Q. With who?
A. Mrs. Baniszewski.
Q. What else was said at this time?
A. She told me I could see her. She mentioned that she had punished the girl for skipping school. She said, "I laid it on her". I took it the same as any mother taking care of children, her own or anyone else's, skipping school. She also said, she had to lock her in her room upstairs, had to watch her like a hawk, had to lock her in because she would slip out and it was brought to her attention - I don't know whether she had actually seen it or not - she was propositioning older men for money.
Q. What else was said at this time, if anything?
A. She told me I could see her if I wanted to. I said, "I will go ahead and talk to you and before I leave I will see her".
Q. Did she call Sylvia to the room?
A. No, she was supposed to have been upstairs locked in the room. At the close of the conversation, just before I left, I said, "I will see Sylvia now". She said, "Alright" and about that time Jenny came in and she said, "Here is her sister. You can ask her". She said, "Explain what Sylvia does". She said, "My sister, after she goes to bed, slips down and raids the ice box and tells lies".
Q. Did you have conversation with Paula at this time?
A. I don't remember having a conversation with Paula on that occasion.
Q. Did Mrs. Baniszewski say anything else which you have not testified?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Now, you had subsequent visits?
Q. When was that?
A. Several days later - I would say ten days or two weeks later I was called back.
Q. Who was there then?
A. Mrs. Baniszewski was there and again some of the younger children, the baby and on this occasion Paula had called me and asked me if I would come over and give them some spiritual help. Stephanie had been fainting, passing out and they were afraid she might have a brain tumor. She had been taken to the doctor that day and they were upset about it, afraid to face the conclusion of the possibility it could be a brain tumor.
Q. When you went to the home was there conversation with Mrs. Baniszewski?
Q. Was Paula present?
A. Paula came in while I was there.
Q. What was said?
A. It was similar - the problems were discussed she was having with the Likens girls and the fact money was not coming in. The financial strain was tremendous. We discussed some of the problems about school and then also one of the main things discussed - I make so many of these visits and it is hard to keep my mind straight exactly what happened on each occasion. On one of the visits, Mrs. Baniszewski was upset about the fact Sylvia was supposed to have come to our church and also at school and said Paula was expecting a baby and she said, "I know my daughter I know her. If anybody is going to have a baby, Sylvia is, and I wanted it straightened out at church". I said at that time that for Paula to continue to come would be the fastest way to straighten the question out.
Q. Did Paula continue to go to church?
A. To my knowledge she did.
Q. Up till when?
A. Possibly a Sunday or two before. We had a Revival Meeting beginning the same week Sylvia died and I can't remember whether or not the Baniszewskis were there that Sunday before the meeting started Monday or not. They were faithful within a reasonable amount of time of the death of Sylvia.
Q. Did you have conversation with Paula concerning Sylvia at this time?
A. I had a conversation with her about it and she said there was some hatred in her heart and she was concerned about it and she had hit her.
Q. When did you have this conversation?
A. I don't remember. I don't know whether it was on an occasion in the home or after the meeting was over and the young people were starting out the door or not.
Q. What else did she say?
MR. RICE: Your Honor, I think I will have to object until I ask a preliminary question or two.
THE COURT: I would like to ask whether or not the conversation she had was in the capacity of pastor and she in the roll of a communicant of the church.
MR. NEW: We object. We asked that question and they objected.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. GEORGE RICE, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
PAULA MARIE BANISZEWSKI
Q. Can you answer the question?
A. As to whether it was in the capacity of a pastor and member?
A. Of the congregation? Would you ask that question again?
Q. I would like to know whether or not on the occasion you are now testifying as to the conversation you had with Paula Baniszewski, on your side was that a conversation between a pastor of a church, talking with and giving spiritual advice to a communicant that belonged to that church?
A. In a confidential way?
A. No, we were standing around at the door.
Q. Is it possible to have a confidential communication with a member of the church, if other people of the family are present, by the rules of your faith?
Q. Could it have been confidential?
A. If it was confidential, it was not brought to my attention it was of that nature, because of the fact, people were standing around. Usually, people who want to talk to me wait around. To my knowledge, no one said, "This is confidential and I would like to talk to you confidentially". I felt it was a sort of bragging what she had done, hitting her and breaking her wrist.
Q. Am I correct, unless one of the communicants of the church says, in so many words says, "This is confidential" you feel at liberty to discuss with anybody what you discussed?
A. No, it would be according to the conversation. For one thing, there are some conversations that are not told to me to be confidential. I separate them by the type of information given me. At the time of this conversation, it was not confidential. It was told to the church workers, people on the bus.
Q. What had been?
A. About striking Sylvia and injuring her wrist. In fact, they came to me, concerned for Paula. To my knowledge and to the knowledge of those who heard this, it was not common practice for Paula to be going about striking anybody and bragging about it. It showed spiritual decline. For that reason, they came and discussed it with me. I said the girl told me. If this did not happen, I would not consider it confidential.
MR. RICE: I think we will object on the grounds it was a privileged communication, at least as far as what he said to Paula and she to him. I object to the rest on the grounds of hearsay.
THE COURT: Objection overruled - there is no question before the witness.
DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED,
QUESTIONS BY MISS MARJORIE WESSNER,
Q. How many times did you personally see Sylvia at church?
A. I remember two that I can be positive on.
Q. Did you ever hear Sylvia use any bad language?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Do you know any trouble she was ever in at church?
Q. Did you see anything out of the ordinary as far as Sylvia was concerned?
Q. How many times have you talked to Mrs. Baniszewski?
A. At least three times.
Q. And how long did these conversations last?
A. At least thirty minutes and not more than an hour.
Q. Based on your conversation and your observation of Mrs. Baniszewski, do you have an opinion as to her sanity at this time?
Q. What is your opinion?
A. I believe she is sane.
Q. Did you believe she would be sane at the time you had these conversations with her?
Q. How many times did you talk to Paula?
A. Quite a few times, if we count the times at the door and the times in the congregation after services and the times in the home, quite a few.
Q. You have had an opportunity to observe her conduct also?
Q. Based upon your conversation with Paula Baniszewski and your observation of her conduct, do you have an opinion as to her sanity at that time?
MR. RICE: We object on the same ground as before.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q. What is your opinion?
A. I believe she was sane.
MISS WESSNER: You may cross.
THE COURT: Gertrude Baniszewski may cross examine.
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
Q. Is that Rev. Roy Julian?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your opinion as to Gertrude is based on that of a layman's, not any expert?
A. I am not an expert. I took psychology in the liberal arts degree and I have taken psychological - abnormal psychology and clinical psychology.
Q. Where, Reverend?
A. Tennessee Temple Schools, Chattanooga. I graduated in 1956.
Q. How many years did you take abnormal psychology?
A. I took one year.
Q. How many years of psychology?
A. I had a major except for nine hours.
Q. A major except for nine hours?
A. I lacked nine hours having a major in psychology.
Q. Did you ever check the truth or falsity of Gertrude's story with reference to the conduct of Sylvia, that she related to you? Did you ever check that?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you think that was anything unusual in the story Gertrude told you about that?
A. Anything unusual about the behavior of Sylvia?
Q. Anything unusual in the conversation that Mrs. Baniszewski related to you about Sylvia?
A. I saw nothing unusual about it.
Q. You saw nothing unusual about Mrs. Baniszewski's manner, demeanor, appearance or nothing?
A. I felt she was a little neurotic by her worries and frets and personality but not mentally.
Q. What do you mean by threats?
A. Frets. Her concerns, not threats.
Q. Her concern about what?
A. The various things. I was called in to discuss the problem of Stephanie. We went back to the same routine of financial problems and we had discussed this before, and the heavy strain on herself. She said she was under a doctor's care and had to take quite a bit of medicine. Paula had to get a job to absorb some of the expense. Paula got a job because she volunteered to do so, dropped out of school to help relieve some of the strain from her mother.
Q. Did she say anything about - I think you discussed money not coming in?
Q. What did she say?
A. She said it had not come in. According to my understanding, the children were left there with a promise of money that never come in.
Q. What children?
A. The Likens girls, Sylvia and Jenny.
Q. Was there any discussion about money not coming in with reference to the support money her ex-husband was obligated to pay? Was that mentioned?
A. I don't remember that.
Q. You don't remember?
Q. What did she say about financial strain?
A. It had been heavy and she had to budget food and everything else. Financially, I could realize she was in strain. Evidently it was somewhat real and on the other hand I felt sometimes it might be a little exaggerated. Some people worry more than a normal amount.
Q. Naturally, you have read the Bible lots of times?
Q. I believe you testified Stephanie came forward at your services. When was that?
A. Stephanie and Paula came forward with the Likens. Stephanie come forward quite a few times.
Q. Stephanie come forward quite a few times. What do you mean?
A. Either to dedicate her life or to re-dedicate it or she would have some type of spiritual problem and ask somebody to pray with her. It gives us an opportunity to publicly counsel and read with them and pray.
Q. Stephanie did that quite a few times?
A. Yes, since I first knew her.
Q. When did you first know Stephanie, about?
A. I would say approximately two and a half to three years, somewhere along in there.
Q. Two and a half to three years?
Q. How many times would you say Stephanie came forward in most of July, August and September and October 1965?
A. I only remember one occasion. I only remember the time she came with either Sylvia or Jenny.
Q. August 22?
Q. She did come forward other times prior to that?
Q. Any time subsequent to that?
A. I have no definite, any positive dates or number of times.
Q. Now, did you ever read about Ananias in the Bible?
Q. To your knowledge, did Stephanie ever read the Bible?
Q. To your knowledge, did she ever read about Ananias?
A. Ananias and Sapphira?
Q. Who were they?
A. They lied in church, in the Book of Acts, and they dropped dead in church.
Q. To your knowledge, do you know whether or not Stephanie lied to you after she came forward?
MR. NEW: We object.
THE COURT: Objection sustained. The answer will go out. The jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict in this case.
Q. What did you say, if anything, to Jenny when Gertrude Baniszewski said in substance, "Jenny is here, ask her", what did you say, Reverend?
A. I said nothing and the girl began to speak up. She said "Ask her what does her sister do".
Q. Mrs. Baniszewski said to ask her what?
A. She said, "Here is her sister, ask her". There was a pause. I did not know how to ask her. I paused a moment and Mrs. Baniszewski said, "Tell him what your sister does".
Q. Speaking to Jenny?
Q. What did Jenny say, if anything?
A. She said, "She tells lies and when the rest of us are asleep in bed, she sneaks downstairs and raids the ice box and eats the food" and it was brought out - I don't know who said it, it was brought out when she came downstairs she had been drinking the baby's milk and there was not enough milk hardly for anyone except the baby, there was not enough to go around, and she had even been drinking the baby's milk.
Q. Had you ever talked to Sylvia yourself, Reverend?
A. No conversation with her except on one occasion in the month of July when she rode in my automobile with several of the others and we talked just about general things, conditions, that type of thing.
Q. Now, is that the only time you ever spoke to Jenny there at the Baniszewski household?
A. No, Jenny had been forward the same day her sister had and several times after that. There was no conversation.
Q. Now, Doctor, when Jenny came forward, you mean like Paula and Stephanie came forward, is that what you mean?
A. August 22 was the day that Jenny and Sylvia came to receive Christ as their Savior.
Q. As well as Paula?
A. No, Paula came with them and Stephanie came with them. Sometimes this happened, another person who is a member of the church may see somebody weeping and say, "May I go with you? Just my presence to go with you down the aisle may give you comfort or encouragement to go"? These girls came. To my knowledge, they did not come for a reason of their own, except to help them. They were interested in them, had brought them to church.
Q. How much time elapsed from the time Jenny came forward and when Jenny talked to you in the house within the presence of Gertrude Baniszewski, how much time elapsed?
A. It was the last of August, when they came forward in the church services and I know school was going on. As to whether it was in September or October, I don't know.
Q. There were a number of days between those two times, would you say, two or three weeks or a month maybe?
A. I would say no more than a month.
Q. Now, did Gertrude Baniszewski commit any overt act, utter any statement to Jenny threatening her or inducing her to say anything to you at all that time?
Q. Would you say Jenny spoke of her own volition, her own free will?
A. I would say she did.
Q. Do you think Jenny ever read about Ananias and Sapphira?
MR. NEW: We object.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. ERBECKER: No further questions.
THE COURT: Defendant Paula Marie may examine.
MR. RICE: Defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski has no question of this reverent gentleman.
THE COURT: Defendant Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski.
MR. BOWMAN: No questions.
THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs may question.
MR. NEDEFF: No questions.
THE COURT: Any re-direct?
MISS WESSNER: No.
THE COURT: May the witness leave?
MISS WESSNER: Yes.
THE COURT: Next witness, please.
MR. NEW: May we have a recess?
THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen, a five minute recess. Retire to the jury room. Don't talk among yourselves about this case and don't form or express any opinion on this case till it is finally submitted to you.