Gertrude Baniszewski - Defendant

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Gertrude Baniszewski - Defendant

Postby admin » October 31st, 2010, 6:19 pm

THE COURT: Have you been sworn?

WITNESS: No.

WITNESS SWORN BY THE COURT.

GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI , a witness called on behalf of defendant Gertrude Baniszewski,
being duly sworn by the court, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Please speak loudly so the last juror can hear you. State your name.

A. Gertrude Baniszewski.

Q. How old are you, Gertrude?

A. Thirty-seven.

Q. Where were you born?

A. In Indianapolis, Indiana.

THE COURT: Please talk louder so the jury can all hear you.

Q. How many children do you have, Gertrude?

A. Seven.

Q. Names and ages?

A. Paula Marie Baniszewski, age eighteen; Stephanie Kay Baniszewski, age fifteen; John Stephan Baniszewski, age thirteen; Marie Susanne Baniszewski, eleven; Shirley Ann, ten; Dennis Lee, two years.

Q. Now, the father of all those children is who?

A. The father of the oldest children is John S. Baniszewski, Sr.

Q. Yes?

A. Dennis Lee's father is Dennis Lee Wright.

Q. Where is Dennis Lee Wright at the present time?

A. I would not have any idea.

Q. Where is the father of the other children, John Baniszewski?

A. He maintains his residence in Beech Grove.

Q. When were you married to Mr. Baniszewski?

A. In 1945.

Q. 1945?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you first live when you got married?

A. With my mother.

Q. Who is she? What is her name?

A. Molly M. Van Fausen.

Q. Where did you live at?

A. You mean at the time?

Q. Yes.

A. 429 North Dearborn.

Q. How long did you live there?

A. A month prior to having Paula, which would have been 1948.

Q. Where did you next live?

A. On Terrace Avenue.

Q. When was that?

A. It was 1948.

Q. 1948?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who did you live with there, you and your husband?

A. Yes, sir, in an apartment.

Q. Where did you next live after that?

A. We moved back with my mother for awhile.

Q. How many different places did you live until you finally moved out on New York street?

A. Out on New York Street?

Q. How many places before you moved out there?

A. About five.

Q. When did you move out on New York Street?

A. June of 1965.

Q. Did you and Mr. Baniszewski get a divorce?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When?

A. I don't know the exact year. It has been about four years ago.

Q. Four years ago, and were you married again then?

A. Well, we were living common law then because we never remarried. I had left him once before James was born.

Q. You divorced him before?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When?

A. It was when Shirley Ann was a baby and she is ten years old now.

Q. 1955 or 6?

A. Yes.

Q. You divorced him then and were you remarried again?

A. Yes, I was married to Edward Gutherie.

Q. Where was that?

A. Hutchinson, Kansas.

Q. How long were you married to him?

A. About six months.

Q. What happened to that marriage?

A. Well, he objected to the children very much and we were not getting along. I came back to Indianapolis with the children.

Q. Who got your divorce?

A. He got it on his own.

Q. Who got your first divorce?

A. I don't remember his name really.

Q. After you came back to Indiana and were still married to Mr. Gutherie, what happened?

A. I went back with Mr. Baniszewski.

Q. When was that?

A. It was when Shirley Ann was a year old.

Q. How many years ago?

A. About nine years ago?

Q. Around 1957, would it be?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you and he live together then?

A. About three or four years.

Q. You were not ceremonially married?

A. No, sir.

Q. What happened then?

A. Well, it was a very unhappy situation for me and the children both, so I left him.

Q. You left him three or four years ago?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you work prior to your being incarcerated?

A. Did I work?

Q. Yes.

A. I did some ironings at home.

Q. Ironings at home?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now then, have you ever been under a doctors care for anything?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was the first time?

A. I had a nervous breakdown when Stephanie was a baby.

Q. When was that?

A. She is fifteen, so it was fourteen years ago.

Q. How long were you in the hospital, if you were?

A. Well, they tried doctoring me at home first and my body started dehydrating from not eating and they had to hospitalize me and I was in the hospital two weeks before they released me.

Q. Were you ever in the hospital again?

A. Just for my children.

Q. Have you been under a doctor's care the last few years?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who?

A. Dr. Paul G. Lindenborg.

Q. Lindenborg?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where is his office?

A. 3000 North Arlington.

Q. When was the last time you got any treatment from Dr. Lindenborg?

A. The 25th of October.

Q. The 25th of October?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was the occasion for that?

A. You mean what was his treatment?

Q. What was the matter with you?

A. Well, I was just sick, run down and had this - I don't think he even knew what it was - it was completely all over my face and half way down my chest. My eyes were swelled shut and running and I was vomiting, could not retain anything on my stomach, and I was just sick.

Q. What do you mean "stuff all over your face and shoulders"?

A. Just big welts like.

Q. Your face was swollen, you say?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were your eyes swollen?

A. They were swollen shut about.

Q. How long did that condition exist prior to October 25?

A. Almost two weeks.

Q. Did you see Dr. Lindenborg any time in October?

A. Yes, sir, I saw him the 23rd of October and again on the - not - yes it was on - I saw him on Saturday and then I saw him again on the 25th.

Q. Did you go to his office?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was his office with reference to your home out there on New York?

A. Well, we live on East New York near Sherman Drive and he was way up at 30th and Arlington, quite some way.

Q. You went to his office on those two occasions?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Prior to that, Mrs. Baniszewski, had you been under a doctor's care before that?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Dr. Hansell.

Q. When did you see him?

A. The last time I saw him was about four years ago, I believe.

Q. Any other doctor?

A. Dr. Chester Conway.

Q. Who?

A. Chester Conway.

Q. When did you see him?

A. This was when Stephanie was a baby and I had a nervous breakdown.

Q. 1952?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Any other doctor you saw or were attended by?

A. Dr. Sexon?

Q. Sexon?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where is his office?

A. North Keystone.

Q. When did you last see him?

A. When James was a baby and he is nine.

Q. How long was that, nine years ago?

A. Yes.

Q. 1956 - any other doctor, Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. Dr. McAree.

Q. Dr. McAree?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you last see him?

A. April, last year.

Q. April was?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was the occasion of that?

A. I had a miscarriage and I had to go in to see him.

Q. Any other doctor?

A. Dr. Robert Arnold.

Q. When did you last see him?

A. When Shirley Ann was born.

Q. That has been how long ago?

A. She is ten.

Q. Ten years ago. Any other doctor who attended you?

A. I don't remember right offhand, Mr. Erbecker.

Q. Now, have you ever been confined in any hospital?

A. Just St. Francis Hospital.

Q. St. Francis. When was that?

A. When I had a nervous breakdown when Stephanie was a baby.

Q. 1952?

A. Yes.

Q. No other hospital of any kind?

A. Just to have my children.

Q. No sanitariums, no other treatment that you know of?

A. No, I spent a month in Arizona on a doctor's advice.

Q. Now, Mrs. Baniszewski, have you ever been convicted of anything in your life, any criminal offense?

A. No, sir, except in August of last year I was arrested and brought downtown for defrauding a paper boy and resisting arrest and was fined for that and I spent exactly - I would say one half hour in the jail upstairs and was released on my own recognizance.

Q. In 1965?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember what month?

A. It was in August, sir.

Q. I take it you lived in Indianapolis all your life?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Other than the brief stay in Arizona?

A. I did live for a while with Mr. Guthrie in Kansas and California.

Q. How long, would you say?

A. Not over five months.

Q. Now, then, getting down to when you moved out here on New York Street, what date was that?

A. It was in June.

Q. June 1965?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And who moved there with you?

A. Paula, Stephanie, James, Marie, Shirley and Dennis. Johnny was not with me at the time, John Jr.

Q. Did anybody else live there with you, any adult?

A. Not, sir, not at the time, no.

Q. Now then, Mrs. Baniszewski, during your living out there, did you have occasion to have in your home one Sylvia Marie Likens?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Alright now tell the jury in your own words exactly how that came about, how you happened to have her out there?

A. Well, this was in July, the first part of July, my daughter Stephanie had gone on a trip with her father. She was not there. There was a neighbor girl - her name is Darlene MacGuire, she came over quite frequently to play with Paula and some of the other children and there was a young girl knocked at our door and wanted to talk to Darlene and I went to the door with Darlene and she related to Darlene - she wanted to know whether she knew where she could get hold of Sylvia Likens. Darlene said she had been to her home but did not know exactly where she lived. A day or so later, Sylvia, I suppose, came over to Darlene's and the reason this woman was hunting for Sylvia was supposed to have been Sylvia had been out with her husband. That is the reason she was hunting for this girl. Darlene said she would tell her if she saw her. Darlene brought Sylvia Likens over to her home two days later and introduced her as the girl this other girl was looking for. That is how I first became acquainted with Sylvia Likens.

Q. What happened then? Did she live there then?

A. Not right then.

Q. Go ahead.

A. She hung around with the children that day and with Darlene and later in the afternoon she said something - I think - about Jenny being alone or being home or something and she wanted to go see about her and so Paula and Darlene and Sylvia walked down to her home and brought Jenny back with them.

Q. Yes, go ahead.

A. And, well there was a lot of kids in my home - I mean my own children - and I had a baby so it was kind of hard keeping track of all the children at one time. As I remember, they did play games that day and were in and out of the house. Later on in the evening, I put my own children to bed, except for Paula and I think Marie stayed up to watch television, and I had not been feeling well and I wanted to go to bed. I told the two girls I thought they had better go home. In the meantime, they had ate supper with my children because I did not want to set my own children down and those children not eat too, so I asked them to have supper with us and they did and I told the two girls that evening after I put my own children to bed that I wanted to lock my doors so I could go to bed. I thought they had better go home, their mother would probably be worrying about them. Sylvia tried to tell me - no, she was not even home probably. I got curious and I said they had better go see. They left and came back, I guess, after I went to bed. The next thing I heard was a lot of loud talking and noise downstairs and this was at 10:00 o'clock at night and it was Sylvia's father who had come to the home hunting for Sylvia and Jenny.

Q. Did you have conversation with Sylvia's father?

A. Well, I came downstairs to see, you know, what the noise was about and Mr. Likens was at the front door.

Q. Can you give us about what date that was?

A. No, not exactly, it was the first part of July.

Q. Did you subsequently have conversation with Mr. Likens?

A. No, he was busy talking to his girls, wondering where his wife was at.

Q. Alright, what happened then?

A. He asked if the girls could stay at the house while the girls had told their father a story about their mother being locked up in jail for shoplifting. He wanted to go down to the jail and see if she was still down there and he wanted to know if it was alright for the girls to stay at the house till he returned.

Q. That was the first occasion they stayed at your house all night?

A. They were not supposed to stay all night. He came back later on.

Q. What happened when he came back?

A. Again I was upstairs and had left my daughter Paula downstairs and Marie was still up too and Sylvia and Jenny. He came back later and said the girls' mother had been bailed out of jail. He did not know where else she could be. I heard the girls telling their father about some man she had been running around with, that she could be over there or she could be over at her mother's and again he asked me if it was alright to leave the girls there so they would not be alone while he went looking for the mother.

Q. Did he leave the girls there?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Then what happened?

A. He came back later on that night and it must have been 1:00 or 2:00 o'clock in the morning.

Q. What happened then, Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. He could - well, he had found out the mother was at her mother's home and had been for a day or two, something like that.

Q. Then did you have conversation with Mr. Likens about the girls living at your house?

A. No, he talked mainly to the girls and he was talking about - I don't know what I am going to do with you girls, where you are going to stay. He was real vindictive at the mother -

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. Hearsay.

Q. What he said?

A. What he said to me? Well, I would have to go in some further conversation before I could tell you what he said to me, lead up to you.

Q. Go ahead, relate the conversation, not your opinion or conclusion.

A. Sylvia asked her father if she could stay with us -

Q. On that same night or morning at 1:00 o'clock?

A. Yes, sir, I immediately said, "No, I could not take care of you children, I have too many of my own and too many worries and too many responsibilities without adding any more". She said, "Well, we can take care of ourselves, we are used to that".

Q. Who said that?

A. Sylvia did, she turned around to her father and said, "Daddy, you could pay her for letting us stay here". I still protested about them staying there. I had too much responsibility then and I was not well.

Q. You were not what?

A. Well, at all, and so finally he said, "Would you take care of them a couple of weeks till I get this with my wife straightened out and see what we are going to do? I don't have any place to take them right now". I said if they stayed they would have to take care of themselves, I could not do it for him.

Q. Did you say that in front of these two children?

A. Yes, sir, I did, and then he related further to me that the girls needed straightening out, that they would not mind their mother, that she had let them have thei own way and had let them run free at will and he further told me the children were just completely out of hand and I told him I could not take on the responsibility of correcting or straightening out his girls because I was having enough problems of my own with my own children. He said, "Well, I think they will straighten up". He said it would only be a couple of weeks anyway.

Q. Alright, what happened, did they stay there then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was there any agreement reached about him paying you?

A. He said he was not supposed to be working, so he told me at the time he was planning on going to work and he told me he would try to pay me $20.00 a week and so he left the children there.

Q. And they continued to live there with you, both of them, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Alright, you heard the testimony of all the State's witnesses here that have testified, haven't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you heard being read into evidence some of the written statement, you heard that, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What happened the first week when the girls stayed there at the house? That would be the week of around the 4th of July?

A. Yes, it would.

Q. What happened, did anything unusual happen that week?

A. Yes, it was quite unusual because my sister-in-law moved in on me with her children.

Q. What is her name?

A. Rose Van Dawson.

Q. With reference to Sylvia Marie Likens, what happened the week in July?

A. Nothing too much because - I mean they all got along pretty good the first week, it seemed to me. Then my children and Jenny and Sylvia and my sister-in law's children and the neighborhood children - I really could not tell you anything that went on that week because it was like a madhouse in there.

Q. The neighborhood children were there - did many neighborhood children come in your house?

A. Yes, quite often.

Q. How many would you say?

A. There were as many as six, seven, eight at one time.

Q. At one time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever admonish the children to stay away?

A. Yes, sir, I have.

Q. When?

A. Oh, many occasions.

Q. Was this six, seven or eight children prevalent during the first week of July, 1965?

A. The first week of July there were some neighbor children. Not quite that many in the beginning, no, sir.

Q. How about the second week in July? Did anything unusual happen at that time?

A. No, sir.

Q. And all this time you were living there at the house, were you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And there was no other adult there, was there?

A. Just me.

Q. How about your sister-in-law. Did she move out?

A. Yes, sir, she did.

Q. How long did she stay?

A. A week.

Q. Now, the second week in July then, did you see Sylvia Marie Liken during that period?

A. The second week?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And were all your children living there the first and second week in July?

A. No, sir.

Q. Who was not living there?

A. Stephanie went on vacation with her father and Johnny was living with his father at the time.

Q. Did anything unusual happen with reference to Sylvia Marie Likens the second week in July?

A. No. I don't believe so.

Q. Now, where did she live there in the house - with the other children?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was she assigned separate quarters or anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she go to school at that time or was there vacation?

A. There was no school at that time.

Q. What would she do during the day?

A. Well, the kids went to the park.

Q. What park?

A. Various parks. There were three different ones they went to.

Q. What was the name?

A. They went to Brookside Park, Ellenberger Park and Christian Park.

Q. Were they all close by there?

A. Pretty close, yes, sir.

Q. And who would - which one of the children, if any, of yours did Sylvia Marie Likens run around with?

A. They all went in a group, really.

Q. They all went in a group. Were any of your children assigned domestic duties around the house in particular or did they all pitch in?

A. Yes, they were assigned things to do but they did not do them.

Q. None of them did?

A. Paula helped me quite a bit at home at that time because she knew I was not able to do it alone any more.

Q. What was your physical condition the first and second week in July?

A. As I said, I lost a baby a year ago this April and did not see a doctor for two days and I was home alone with the children when I miscarried this baby.

Q. April '65?

A. Yes, sir. Subsequently, I only got to see a doctor once, due to my financial difficulties. I did not have money to keep running back and forth to the doctor. At the same time, two days later, my daughter Paula Marie ran away from home and I was having it pretty rough and the house was pretty bad and -

Q. What do you mean - the house was pretty bad?

A. The home we lived in was not a real nice home at all, it was real run down and it was badly heated and damp and truthfully about ready to fall in, but it was all I could afford at the time.

Q. Were you working at the time?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you doing any domestic work?

A. Well, when Paula ran away from home I realized I had to do something and so something quick if I wanted my children to continue eating and having a decent place to stay. I took on ironings.

Q. From whom?

A. Various people.

Q. Neighbors, you mean?

A. No, I ran an ad and got them that way and put ads up in laundromats and they brought them to my home to do.

Q. When did you start this ironing service?

A. I know it was not more than four or five days after I miscarried the baby.

Q. Back in April?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you continue doing ironings up to and including July?

A. Wait a minute. I took on a job when I was babysitting too.

Q. When was that?

A. This was May.

Q. May '65?

A. Yes, sir, plus I was working at the qualifications at the 500 and some days working sixteen hours a day out there.

Q. When was that?

A. This was May.

Q. You worked at the 500-mile race?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many days did you work out there?

A. I worked weekends and I worked Race Day.

Q. Sixteen hours a day sometimes?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who would watch the children?

A. My sister-in-law did, Rose Marie Van Dawson, and Stephanie was supposed to watch them some but she did not. I would come home and subsequently that is the reason I had to find other babysitters, she would take off and leave the children alone.

Q. This job only lasted till Race Day?

A. That is right, sir.

Q. What did you do in June?

A. I was still - wait a minute, I think I still babysitted some in June. I quit because of the children.

Q. Where would you babysit, at your house?

A. No, sir. I took little Denny and went over to these people's house during the day.

Q. What people's house?

A. There name was Reed.

Q. Where did they live?

A. On Oakland.

Q. Near the neighborhood there?

A. Yes, I walked it ever day. It was seven or eight blocks away.

Q. What month was that?

A. May and June.

Q. How long did you work, the whole month?

A. No. I did not work the whole of June because I did not work any longer. Going to work so soon after my miscarriage - I was pretty run down.

Q. You say you walked there?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What distance?

A. We lived the 300 block Bradley and they lived 700 or 800 block on Oakland. It was quite a distance.

Q. How far? A mile?

A. More than that.

Q. You walked it twice a day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now then, getting back to the second week in July, your only gainful occupation was taking in ironing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many ironings did you take in a week?

A. It varied, you know, how many people really wanted to bring in, which wanted to bring it in that week.

Q. Did you have any other income?

A. No, sir.

Q. How about support?

A. I had some support, not full support.

Q. Was there a court order against Mr. Baniszewski?

A. Yes, there was.

Q. In what court, do you know?

A. No, I don't. John Hammond was handling this.

Q. Was Mr. Baniszewski up on his payments, current?

A. Was he up on them?

Q. At that time?

A. He paid me, he did not pay in full.

Q. What was he supposed to pay you?

A. Well, it was $55.00 a week. He paid me $110.00 every other week.

Q. Did he pay that all the time?

A. Really what he said was $110.00 twice a month.

Q. Was he current on his payments?

A. He was not paying them regularly, not fully, no.

Q. What was your rent there at that house - were you buying it on contract or renting?

A. We were renting. It was $55.00 a month.

Q. $55.00 a month. You paid that out of your support, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then you had another $55.00 a month for food, did you?

A. Yes.

Q. Utilities and everything?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many children did you have to support and feed out of that?

MR. NEW: We object. She has already stated that, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. $55.00 twice a month as a result of a court order?

A. You are misunderstanding me. He paid me $70.00 twice a month is what he paid me. It was supposed to be $55.00 a week but he would only send me $110.00 when he paid it in full, twice a month. He did not pay me a flat $55.00 a week.

Q. I see. Other than that money from Mr. Baniszewski and your ironings, was that the only income you had to pay everything?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In the second week in July did anything unusual happen at that time?

A. No, sir.

Q. The third week in July, with reference to Sylvia Marie Likens, was she still living at the house then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What had she been doing, about the same thing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. At that time, in the third week of July, did you at that time ever strike, beat, or kick at or against her?

A. I believe I tried paddling her once.

Q. When was that?

A. I don't remember exactly what day it was on. I do remember the children coming home. I always told the children - I don't believe any child has a right in a grocery store unless it is there to buy something or has money, just to be loitering around, no. I had always admonished -

MR. NEW: We object. It is not responsive.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. And I had also told them about ever begging anything from anyone, taking anything that did not belong to them, and subsequently Jenny and Sylvia had them doing other things besides that, going in groceries when I told them not to. The kids started telling me the kids were starting to take things out of groceries so I not only tried to correct Sylvia at the time, but my own needed correcting, and as it ended up Paula had to help me. I am asthmatic and like I said, I was sick at the time. I was not even able physically to whip the children.

Q. Then you did administer correction?

A. I started to, sir, but I could not spank her because - like I say, I am asthmatic and can't get my breath and I could not get my breath and I quit.

Q. During those first, second and third weeks in July, were you ever ill to such an extent you had to lay down?

A. Quite a bit, yes, sir.

Q. In those three weeks?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Because of what?

A. I am asthmatic and summer is most hard on me.

Q. Alright.

A. I was worn out physically and mentally from the bunch of problems and not having the right doctor and care.

Q. Other than paddling her the third week in July, did anything unusual happen to Sylvia Marie Likens?

A. Nothing unusual, no, sir.

Q. At that time, other than that paddling, did you ever strike, beat her, abuse her, kick her or kick her?

A. No sir.

Q. Now, do you recall the fourth week of July 1965?

A. Not real clearly, no, sir.

Q. What was your physical condition at that time?

A. Still about the same, pretty run down, physically, pretty upset mentally and emotionally.

Q. What do you mean?

A. If you have as many children around your home every day as I did and arguing and carrying on, you get pretty mentally and emotionally upset too, and mine were causing me quite a few problems too, my own were creating quite a few problems.

Q. How many children were living with you there the third and fourth week in July?

A. Well, Stephanie was back home then from her vacation and I had seven of mine and Sylvia and Jenny.

Q. Nine children in the third and fourth week?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did the father of the children ever come around there?

A. Yes, once in a while.

Q. At that time did you still carry on taking in ironings?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. During the third and fourth weeks in July?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you average a week out of your ironings?

A. I was getting so I could not hardly do them any more because I would have to do a few pieces and go lay down and then try it again, plus the added burden of trying to do all the housework and all the kids -

MR. NEW: Your Honor, the State objects because it is not responsive to the question. The question was "how much did you make"?

A. I am trying to tell him.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

A. So it varied. It all depended on how I felt, Mr. Erbecker.

Q. During the third and fourth week, were you ill?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did that reduce the amount of ironings you were able to do?

A. Yes, sir, it did.

Q. Starting with the first week of August, did you still have nine children there with you?

A. Wait a minute, Johnny had never came home yet. Johnny did not come home with me till September.

Q. There were only eight children?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, the first week of August there were only eight children?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How about the neighbor children - would they come in?

A. Oh, yes, sir.

Q. Often?

A. Yes, sir, quite often.

Q. Every day, do you think?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time of day?

A. I had them there before I ever got up out of bed in the morning, knocking on the doors.

Q. How many neighbor children would it average a day, do you think?

A. Six or seven or eight sometimes.

Q. At that time, August 1, were you taking in any ironings?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Many of them?

A. No, sir, again I will have to say physically I was not able to keep up with it like I had been before.

Q. Now, then, how about the second week of August, Mrs. Baniszewski, was there any change in your condition or the conditions around the house?

A. No, sir, not too much.

Q. The first and second weeks of August 1965 did you ever strike, beat and kick at the deceased, Sylvia Marie Likens?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now then, the third week of August, how many children were there at the house, eight?

A. Johnny came home to visit for a while. I can't remember whether that is when he was there. I do know he came home sometime prior to September and so that added one more.

Q. That would make it nine periodically?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was the schedule of the children about the same with reference to going to the park?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the neighbor children still come in there?

A. Yes.

Q. What was your physical condition at that time?

A. Pretty bad.

Q. Had you been to a doctor any time in the month of July?

A. No, sir, I don't think so. I don't remember being to one.

Q. How about the month of August? Had you been to a doctor?

A. Well, no, not in August either.

Q. Now then, the fourth week in August, was there any change in conditions around that house?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was there any period of time in July or August that there was not sufficient food there?

A. We got low on food, Mr. Erbecker.

Q. You got low?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. What do you mean?

A. Maybe a day or two before the support was supposed to come in, I would get low, be down to eating crackers and soup. Sometimes we had to be satisfied with toast and butter or peanut butter. That never lasted over a day or two at a time. They always had something to eat.

Q. Now, then, getting around to the first week in September 1965, do you remember that?

A. September?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes, I think I do.

Q. Now, at that time, what was your physical condition?

A. In September, it was pretty, pretty bad then.

Q. Were you able to carry on your household duties?

A. No, sir, not very well, no, sir.

Q. Were you able to take in ironings?

A. I tried, you know, to do the best I could about the ironings. Like I said, I would have to do a couple of pieces and put it aside and go back to it and people were getting very impatient about it.

Q. What people?

A. That I was doing ironings for. I could not keep it up. I could not have their ironing out when they wanted it.

Q. At that time were you able to work a full day on your feet?

A. No, sir.

Q. What was your situation with reference to that? Were you compelled to lie down?

A. Quite a bit, yes, sir.

Q. How much, would you say?

A. I never stayed up hardly over a half hour at a time or an hour at the most.

Q. Did you have any doctoring during that period?

A. I could not afford to have a doctor, Mr. Erbecker.

Q. Did you use any homemade medication?

A. Yes, I tried.

Q. What?

A. I had a real bad bronchitis attack and I tried taking different things - you know - drug store remedies like Four-Way Cold tablets. They did not help it. It just worsened me. It is kind of a bad thing to take.

Q. Now, the second week in September did anything unusual happen, with reference to Sylvia Marie Likens?

A. The second week in September - well the children all started back to school.

Q. Had she started back too?

A. Yes.

Q. What school did she go to?

A. Tech.

Q. What date did she start back to school in September?

A. Well, she started when the rest of them did. I don't remember the exact date.

Q. Did she have clothes of her own?

A. She had the same clothes they brought over for her for the summer.

Q. How would she get to school?

A. Walk.

Q. Would she come home for lunch?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she take her lunch?

A. No, I think she worked in the cafeteria or tried to awhile at school.

Q. What was your condition while the children were going to school, what did you do?

A. You mean what did I do at home?

Q. Yes.

A. It was about the same as it always was. I was trying to keep up my children's clothes for school, trying to keep house, going along and trying to take care of little Denny and I was still pretty sick and you know, did not - I never stayed up a full day, I was not able to.

Q. How many children were going to school at that time?

A. All but little Denny.

Q. All but little Denny?

A. That is right.

Q. Eight children going to school and little Denny staying home, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who would watch little Denny while you were lying down?

A. Most of the time I would lay down and Denny was playing in the play pen. I never always went to sleep. I lay down where I could watch him. I took care of him the best I could.

Q. How about the third week in September, do you remember that?

A. You mean any specific thing that would happen in September?

Q. Yes, any specific thing?

A. The kids were fighting a lot.

Q. The kids were fighting a lot?

A. Yes.

Q. What children?

A. My children and the neighbor children were coming in and fighting Sylvia and my children were fighting other children and back and forth.

Q. What did you do when they were fighting?

A. Well, I did not always see this fighting.

Q. Did the fighting take place at your home or outside the door or next door?

A. Sometimes it would be out doors and then sometimes they would get in scraps and arguments inside the house and I would try to break it up.

Q. What were the scraps about?

A. To me it sounded like petty childish fighting.

Q. About the third week in September, did anything unusual happen that week?

A. The third week? I don't remember anything special.

Q. Were you able to take any ironings at that time?

A. Well, I took them in. I was not able to do it very well and I lost several ironings because I was not able to do them.

Q. What about Sylvia, during the third week in September? Did anything unusual happen?

A. There was some disagreement over her stealing a gym suit at school.

Q. Anything else?

A. Not anything specific that I can remember.

Q. At that time did you strike, beat or kick at Sylvia?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. How about the fourth week in September, with reference to Sylvia? Did anything unusual happen?

A. I don't remember anything right now.

Q. What was your condition at that time, the fourth week - the latter part of September?

A. Worse than it had ever been really.

Q. Worse than it had ever been. What do you mean?

A. I was hardly able to stay up at all. I did not feel like even getting up. I could not eat very well at all.

Q. Why?

A. I just did not want to eat, just did not feel like eating and I was very tired. I mean no matter how long I slept, I still was awful tired when I got up. I never seemed to have energy and I was coughing constantly. I was taking my asthma pills quite heavily because of my asthma.

Q. Where did you get the asthma pills?

A. My doctor prescribed them.

Q. Doctor who?

A. Paul G. Lindenborg.

Q. Is that the time you saw him?

A. Not in September, now, sir.

Q. When did you see him prior to that time?

A. I don't know that I saw him personally. My children would be in and out of there for different various things they had done or - you know - accidents they had.

Q. Accidents they had?

A. Yes.

Q. Your children?

A. Yes.

Q. What kind of accidents?

A. Marie ran a wire in an artery and cut it and we had to take her and Stephanie had blood poisoning in her foot and she had to be taken and she got bit by some kind of poisonous spider and her arm got pretty bad and it had to be lanced and taken care of.

Q. Did you take them all to Dr. Lindenborg?

A. Yes.

Q. Where is his office?

A. 30th and Arlington.

Q. Is that where you got the coughing remedy?

A. It is not a coughing remedy. It is an asthmatic prescription that is supposed to help your breathing, but like I say, if I get real tired it makes the asthma worse and makes my chest worse.

Q. Now then, the fourth week did you earn any money with your ironings?

A. You mean in September?

Q. The fourth week in September?

A. Not very much, no, sir.

Q. At that time were the support payments up to date, current?

A. No, sir.

Q. The first week in October, do you remember that?

A. If you mean any specific thing, no, sir, I don't remember.

Q. During the first week of October 1965, any time during that week, did you strike, beat or kick at that girl, Sylvia?

A. In the first part of October, no, sir.

Q. You did not? What was your physical condition at that time, with reference to your working all day?

A. I could not.

Q. What did you do?

A. Well, most of the time I either had to - when I was not laying down I was sitting down and - but most of the time I was just laying down.

Q. How about the second week in October, what was your condition at that time?

A. Just about the same. I was coughing all the time and I do know I had lost quite a bit of weight.

Q. You lost quite a bit of weight?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How much do you think you weighed at that time?

A. It was less than one hundred pounds.

Q. Were you able to eat?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you go to a doctor the second week in October?

A. No, sir.

Q. What about your ironings - were you able to do them?

A. No, sir.

Q. What about support the second week of October?

A. I don't remember right then how they were.

Q. Was there any lack of food in the first and second week of October?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, with reference to Sylvia Marie Likens and the third week in October? Did anything unusual happen?

A. Not to my knowledge, there was not anything unusual happened, no, sir.

Q. What time would you usually retire, go to bed in September and October, 1965?

A. When I put the little children to bed I usually had to go to bed myself.

Q. You mean Dennis?

A. I mean Dennis, James, Shirley and Marie. The little ones I made them go to bed, yes.

Q. What time would that be?

A. I always tried to have them in bed by 8:00 or 8:30. It never always worked out that way. Again a lot of neighborhood children were hanging around the house all the time, wanting to come in.

Q. What time did you retire then, would you say, in September and October 1965, about what time?

A. Well, lots of times Paula would put the children to bed because I was already sound asleep in bed. In fact, Paula actually had taken over the roll of the grownup in the house.

Q. When was that when Paula took over?

A. Well, she helped me. I don't remember exactly what month it was. She worked at Hook's a while and they let her go because they did not think she was mature enough, did not think she was old enough or mature enough. She had just gotten a job Friday before Sylvia died, at Stevens cafeteria and only worked three or four days prior to this happening.

Q. Were you able - were you ever up after 9:00 or 10:00 o'clock most of September and October, to your knowledge?

A. Not as a general rule. I was not unless I got up to take some medicine or something.

Q. Did the older children remain up?

A. Sometimes.

Q. The younger ones you would put to bed or Paula would?

A. They were supposed to be in bed, yes, sir.

Q. What medicine did you take?

A. Phenobarbital Sulphate. An antihistamine. I started taking some coricidin and I don't know whether it was this that caused swelling and stuff on my face or not. I was trying to doctor myself because I could not afford to go to the doctor. I owed the man a lot of money so I was trying to doctor myself till this came on and made me 100% worse than I already was.

Q. Phenobarbital - where did you get it?

A. Dr. Lindenborg.

Q. Now then, the third week in October, the end of the third week in October, specifically around the 20th of October, do you remember what was going on then?

A. Not if you mean do I remember anything.

Q. How about the 21st of October, did anything happen then?

A. Yes, sir, then. May I say one thing? I do remember the fifteenth of October.

Q. What was that?

A. I remember Jenny and Sylvia's father was there.

THE COURT: Mr. Erbecker, let's recess for lunch period. Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, by agreement of counsel and with the consent of the defendants and State given in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. During the recess for lunch, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion thereon till the case is finally submitted to you. Don't read any newspaper articles that may appear about the case and don't watch anything or listen to anything that may be broadcast about the case. You will return to the jury room at 1:30 today. Jury and Alternate Jurors excused till 1:30 today.

JURY EXCUSED.

RECESS.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury, please.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Next question, please.

Q. To refresh your recollection, Mrs. Baniszewski, you remarked something about October 15, that was the second last question. Your answer was, "I remember Jenny and Sylvia's father was there". Go on from there.

A. They were there that evening.

Q. Who was there that evening?

A. Jenny and Sylvia's father and mother.

Q. Did you have any conversation with Jenny and Sylvia's father and mother?

A. They talked mostly to the girls.

Q. How long were they there?

A. Approximately twenty minutes, somewhere along there.

Q. What was the discussion about?

A. As I recollect, it was about a lunchstand they had bought and they were going to go somewhere to work.

Q. Was Sylvia there at that time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Sylvia's rather talk to her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Sylvia's mother talk to her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And where did this conversation take place?

A. In the kitchen.

Q. They stayed there fifteen or twenty minutes?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How was Sylvia dressed at that time?

A. She had a pair of slacks and a sweatshirt on, something she wore mostly all the time.

Q. Was there any conversation at that time by anybody there, including Sylvia's father and mother and you and Sylvia, with reference to her condition?

A. I just merely mentioned to Mr. and Mrs. Likens neither of the girls had a period all the time they had been at my house, not to my knowledge they had not.

Q. Any further conversation?

A. Well, Mrs. Likens had something to say about it.

Q. Mrs. Likens?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. What did she say?

A. She asked me if I knew what could be wrong with them. I said, "No, it could be - if they had been out with boys they could be pregnant - or it could be from other causes".

Q. Was anything further said at that time?

A. Yes, her mother said something about them going to a doctor and if they were pregnant the best thing she thought to do was get rid of the baby.

Q. Anything further?

A. No, they did not talk really directly to me. They were more interested talking to the two girls, discussing things with the two girls.

Q. Now, in the third week of October - that was October 15th, this conversation here, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Did anything unusual happen October 16th?

A. Not that I remember, really.

Q. Now, what about October 21?

A. Well, sometime in October I was sick, I remember that, but there was a man tried getting in our window.

Q. What date was that?

A. I don't remember the exact date.

Q. In October?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What happened?

A. Well, when I awoke the man was half way through the window.

Q. Upstairs or downstairs?

A. Since about the middle part of September, my bedroom had been downstairs where purportedly the dining room was supposed to be.

Q. Was there a dining room?

A. Not since the middle of September, no.

Q. Did the police come there with reference to the man breaking in the house?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. And how long did they stay there?

A. About an hour.

Q. Now, was there any other visitors there at your house during the month of October or September?

A. Do you mean adult or children?

Q. Anybody?

A. One of Paula's girl friends was there and Coy Hubbard was there off and on in October.

Q. I mean any adults?

A. Mrs. Lepper was there several times.

Q. When was that now?

A. I believe she was there the Saturday before we were arrested on Tuesday.

Q. That would be then about three days before the 26th - that would be around the 23rd?

A. I suppose so, yes, sir.

Q. October 23, Mrs. Lepper was there?

A. Yes.

Q. What time of day or night was this?

A. This was late in the evening.

Q. About how late?

A. I don't know for sure. Paula got me up out of bed when she came to the door.

Q. Was there any conversation with her about anything special in particular?

A. No, sir, she had a little conversation with me about the condition my face was in.

Q. What was the conversation about your face?

A. I was wearing sun glasses when I was up because my eyes were swelled and matted quite a bit and my face was swelled and it was getting raw to the point where it was starting to bleed some here and there.

Q. How long did she stay?

A. I don't remember exactly. I think about a half hour because she had Randy dressed up as a girl and we did not recognize Randy at first as I can remember.

Q. Where does Mrs. Lepper live?

A. On New York Street across the street, right across Denny on New York Street.

Q. Now, was there ever any insurance man at your house any time?

A. Oh, yes, off and on quite a bit.

Q. Were there any other people there, adults?

A. Yes, a friend of mine, an insurance woman was in and out of my home several times.

Q. What is her name?

A. Mrs. Garnet Jones.

Q. Mrs. Garnet Jones?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was she there at the house during the months of October and September?

A. I don't remember if she was or not. With all those children and everything. I don't remember everything in every detail.

Q. Was Mrs. Jones ever there during the period Sylvia was there.

A. Oh, yes, sir.

Q. On how many occasions would you say?

A. Four or five, maybe.

Q. Was anybody else there?

A. The Public Health nurse was there one time.

Q. When was that?

A. I think it was the last part of September or first part of October.

Q. Now, directing your attention to October 24, 1965, was there anything unusual happened there at that house?

A. Could you repeat?

Q. October 24th?

A. On October 24th?

Q. Yes. It would be on Sunday, I believe.

A. That was the day Paula was off work and I had been to the doctor's the day before.

Q. You had been to the doctor's on October 23rd?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What doctor?

A. Dr. Paul D. Lindenborg.

Q. You went to his office?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where?

A. 30th and Arlington.

Q. How did you get there?

A. My son, John, and I went in a cab early that morning.

Q. Was that the first time you had been Dr. Lindenborg in several months?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. What was the occasion?

A. I was pretty sick and my face was pretty bad then.

Q. How long did you stay at the doctor's office?

A. I remember the appointment was for 10:00 o'clock. I was supposed to have been the first one he took that morning. I don't remember, it was noon or after when I came home.

Q. Did you see Dr. Lindenborg?

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. He attended you and gave you some medication?

A. Shots, I believe.

Q. Any medicine?

A. He told me something to use on my face or gave me something, I don't remember, it has been sometime ago, Mr. Erbecker.

Q. What was the situation with reference to you doing any ironing at that time?

A. I could not do any at all.

Q. That was the 23rd of October, on the 24th of October, what was your condition?

A. Would that be on Sunday, Mr. Erbecker?

Q. I Think it was.

A. That was the day Paula was off work and she did not go to church. She stayed home so I could be in bed and rest all day so she took care of the house all day, watched the children.

Q. Were you in bed all day Sunday?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. What was your condition at that time? How did you feel?

A. I slept all day.

Q. Where is your bed, downstairs?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Now then, on October 25th, were you up and around that day?

A. Yes, I think I went to the doctor's on that afternoon.

Q. Doctor who?

A. Paul G. Lindenborg.

Q. You went to his office? What time?

A. It was around 1:00 or 1:30.

Q. In the afternoon?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How did you get there that time?

A. In a cab.

Q. How long did you stay there, Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. Until he took me in. I don't remember the exact time. Paula was home when I came home, I believe.

Q. What time did you get home?

A. It was when the children were home from school.

Q. Around what time, 4:00 or 4:30?

A. They get out at 3:15 or 3:30, I believe.

Q. They were home?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you think it would be around 4.30 P.M.

A. It might not have been that late.

Q. Could it have been 3:30, do you think?

A. I think so.

Q. What was your condition at the time?

A. I was pretty sick.

Q. What did you do when you got home?

A. Went to bed.

Q. Did you stay in bed the rest of the afternoon?

A. I remember that one of the girls - but I don't know whether it was Stephanie or Paula - wanted to go to the grocery, wanted to know if I wanted to make out a grocery list, and woke me up for that. I don't remember too much else that went on.

Q. Do you remember getting up that day?

A. I remember going to the doctor and I remember something else too. Paula mashed her toe that night and it was 1:00 o'clock in the morning.

Q. 1:00 o'clock in the morning on October 26th?

A. No, this was the 25th. Well, yes, it was early in the morning, yes, sir.

Q. Now, what was the condition of your face October 25th?

A. The same as it was the day before and the day before that.

Q. Now then, Mrs. Baniszewski, getting in to October 26th, what was your condition that day?

A. I was still about the same.

Q. Were you up?

A. I don't remember being up, Mr. Erbecker, no.

Q. And were you able to do any ironings that day?

A. Oh, no.

Q. What was the condition of your face that day?

A. It was the same.

Q. Did you see Sylvia that day?

A. I don't remember seeing her or talking to Sylvia that day, no, sir.

Q. Now, Mrs. Baniszewski, during the month - any of those months there, July, August, September and October, did you ever any time inflict any torture on Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you beat her with a club or paddle?

A. I told you I started to spank her one time. Another time I do remember spanking her hands as hard as I possibly could at that time but - and this was on the occasion of, well it was not only her - it was my children too, taking something that did not belong to them.

Q. Did you ever push her downstairs?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever tie her hands?

A. No, sir.

Q. You heard all the testimony here in this case concerning things you are supposed to have done?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Did you do those things?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Now then, do you recall Sylvia dying that day?

A. I know Stephanie told me she was dead.

Q. Stephanie told you she was dead?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know what time that was?

A. No, sir, I don't know what time it was.

Q. What did you do when Stephanie told you she was dead?

A. Well, before Stephanie told me, she had fainted, or something to that effect, because I had about a half dozen different children telling me a half dozen different things at the same time and I do remember being pretty upset and I asked the children to call for help or do something. I kept asking what is the matter with her.

Q. Who were these half dozen different children who were telling you a half dozen different stories?

A. Paula, Stephanie, Richard, Johnny - I don't know who all was there, really, I don't.

Q. What did you do? What did Stephanie do after she told you the girl was dead?

A. What did Stephanie do?

Q. Yes.

A. Stephanie was upstairs with her and they would not let me up those stairs.

Q. Who?

A. Stephanie, Richard, or Johnny, so I don't know what actually did go on up there till after we had called the police.

Q. Who called the police?

A. Richard.

Q. Who told him to call the police?

A. I believe I did.

Q. Were you downstairs when Sylvia was upstairs on the 26th?

A. Yes, sir, I was.

Q. What were you doing?

A. You know, truthfully, I don t remember because like I say there was a lot of children in that house and at that time, with all my kids running around and all the other going on, I really can't tell you.

Q. About what time was it when Stephanie told you Sylvia was dead?

A. I don't know, Mr. Erbecker.

Q. Was it in the afternoon?

A. It was in the evening.

Q. In the evening?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what happened?

A. I remember the police coming.

Q. Do you remember a conversation with the police?

A. Not to well, no, sir.

Q. Do you remember what you told the police?

A. I remember - well, yes, I remember something about a note, I remember telling them that, yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember telling them about a note?

A. Yes, I remember handing them one, yes.

Q. Where did you get the note?

A. I don't know which one of the children gave it to me but one of the children gave it to me.

Q. You gave the note to the police?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You don't know which child gave you the note?

A. No. I don't.

Q. Did you have anything to do with the writing of that note?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. Did you tell someone to write the note?

A. No, sir.

Q. Alright, after the police arrived there, what did you do?

A. I really don't remember because, like I said, that house was full of so many people and the truth of it was I had so many pills in me I really don't know.

Q. What kind of pills?

A. I told you I was taking a lot of phenobarbital and a lot of other medicine.

Q. What other medication?

A. It was an antihistamine, and I don't know what all. I have some of them still left in my purse upstairs.

Q. Phenobarbital and antihistamine?

A. I had been taking corlcidin and a little pink pill. I don't even remember what it was.

Q. A little pink pill?

A. Yes, I don't remember what it was.

Q. Where did you get that?

A. From Dr. Lindenborg.

Q. How many different kinds of medication did he give you the last few days?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Then what did you do, do you remember anything else on October 26th?

A. I remember my children, one of them handing me some clothes to put on to come downtown.

Q. How were you dressed when the police came there?

A. A pair of kneeknocker shorts and a blouse. I had sunglasses on and my hair was not combed and that is how I remember. I remember one of my children insisting - "don't you think you had better put coat on, mother"?

Q. Who said that?

A. I believe it was Stephanie. They tell me Stephanie came downtown with me.

Q. Do you remember what happened when you got downtown?

A. I remember being with Stephanie and Stephanie kept asking me to call for an attorney.

Q. Did you call for an attorney?

A. Yes, I asked this man downstairs, Sgt. Kaiser.

Q. What time of the day or night was that?

A. I don't know.

Q. In the evening?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Who did you tell them you wanted to see?

A. He did not even ask me. He rather - he told me he said, "Have you done anything wrong"?, and I said "No", and he said, "Then you don't need an attorney then, do you"?

Q. What else was said - do you remember?

A. No, sir.

Q. And who was the attorney you were going to call?

A. John R. Hammond.

Q. Had he been your attorney?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. For how long?

A. Ever since I filed for divorce against John Baniszewski.

Q. That had been several years?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you eventually see John Hammond?

A. I never saw him till the day I was charged with murder.

Q. When was that?

A. The following Monday.

Q. The following Monday. How many days were you held in the police station or the womans lockup then before you saw Mr. Hammond?

A. From Tuesday evening till the following Monday.

Q. Did you ask to see him during that time?

A. Yes, sir, several times.

Q. The following Monday, what happened then?

A. I was taken down and charged with murder.

Q. And did you see Mr. Hammond at that time?

A. Yes, in the lockup behind the courtroom.

Q. That is the first time you saw Mr. Hammond?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you retain him to represent you?

A. May I say something, Mr. Erbecker, I did see his assistant the latter part of the week, as I remember.

Q. Mr. Hammond's assistant?

A. Yes, his name is Mr. Bogard.

Q. When did you see him?

A. The latter part of the week.

Q. Around you think the 29th or 30th?

A. I don't remember the exact date.

Q. Would it be Thursday or Friday, do you think?

A. I think so.

Q. Then after you talked to Mr. Hammond on the following Monday, did you retain Mr. Hammond to represent you?

A. He told me not to worry about anything.

Q. Mr. Hammond did?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you later see Mr. Hammond after that following Monday?

A. Oh, yes, sir.

Q. How many times?

A. I don't know exactly how many times. He talked to my two daughters also.

Q. What two daughters?

A. Paula and Stephanie.

Q. At that time were they under a criminal charge too, if you know?

A. Yes, they were in the same lockup with me.

Q. And did Mr. Hammond ever talk with the three of you together?

A. No, sir.

Q. He never did? And how long did Mr. Hammond continue to be your attorney?

A. Up till you were assigned to me.

Q. I was assigned to you?

A. I mean you came in on my case.

Q. Now did Mr. Hammond discuss with you about getting another attorney?

MR. NEW: We object. It is remote after the date and would not be a matter of defense.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Were you given a choice who you wanted to get?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. The answer will go out.

Q. Was it your idea to change attorney or Mr. Hammond's?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. When was it I first came to talk to you, Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. I don't really remember the exact time.

Q. Sometime in January or February?

MR. NEW: We object. She said she did not know, did not remember.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Now, is there anything I may have inadvertently omitted to interrogate you about that is relevant to the case you wish to add?

MR. NEW: We object. This is his witness. This is direct examination.

THE COURT: Overruled, yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. What was it?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Before you came to talk to me and all the time that we were waiting, you know -

THE COURT: That would not be evidence. Objection sustained.

Q. Did you testify in front of the Grand Jury?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When was that?

A. It was in the latter part of November or the early part of December, I don't remember.

Q. Was that before or after I got the case?

A. It was before.

Q. On October 26th, did you talk to Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see her?

A. I saw her at a glance. I will put it that way.

Q. At a glance?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What do you mean by that?

A. I did not see her close up. Except till after the the police were there and then I did.

Q. Why was that?

A. Well, because my children were rather restraining me at the time.

Q. Your children were restraining you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. This was October 26 we are talking about?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In what way were they restraining you?

A. Well, for one thing, they would not let me down in the basement and because - well, like I say, I was vomiting and I was sick. Paula did not want me going down there, nor did Stephanie. Johnny did not want me going down there either and that was out of consideration for me, I suppose, because they knew I had been sick and I am a pretty hysterical person when something, you know, happens.

Q. Did you see Sylvia on October 25, the day before that?

A. Yes, I saw her eating supper.

Q. On October 25 you saw her eating supper? Did you have conversation with her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Who was with her eating supper at the time?

A. All the children, as I remember.

Q. On these occasions you testified to here, when you were ill, who took care of the little boy?

A. Well, Paula did on Sunday and like I told you, most of the time I tried to stay as alert as I could because Denny was in the same room with me and he played in his bed or his play pen. You know, I would try to stay awake. When he napped I would try to nap. On Sunday Paula watched him all day. Oh, Stephanie was supposed to have watched him all day. Monday Johnny was home from school and Shirley was home from school. On Tuesday Johnny was home from school and likewise Shirley was home too and they were supposed to help watch him, keep an eye on him and if anything came up, they were supposed to wake me up.

Q. Have you got a daughter named Marie?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. How old is she?

A. She will be twelve in June.

Q. Was she home all the time?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. Did she ever take turns watching the little boy?

A. Yes, she helped me quite a bit.

Q. Now, in the last week proceeding the - before October 26, was there ever any food shortage there?

A. Not as I recall there was not. I was getting so I was buying groceries day by day but that was for the reason I was doing that - do I tell the reason?

Q. Tell the truth.

A. I had some pretty big eaters - my children - and they do eat a lot and I have had problems of not only my son, but a couple of other children getting in the canned goods or getting in things and taking them up and even leaving cans and spoons under the beds and I would not know where they went till I went to clean there. I would be short and I tried to budget things. As long as that was going on, I could not make a go of it. I thought if I bought it day by day maybe I could budget it a little better.

Q. These six, seven eight neighbor children - did that condition exist during the month of September and October?

A. Oh, yes, sir.

Q. In the neighborhood there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever tell them to stay away?

A. Yes, I did many times. In fact, I would try to lock the the doors and Paula would - you know, chase them out or chase them away because - I mean I was to the point where I could not stand noise or anything any more. It was, I just could not take it any more. I had everybody's children.

Q. Did you have any knowledge that any mistreatment was going on towards Sylvia?

A. Not to the extent I have found did go on, no, I did not have no knowledge of it, no, sir.

Q. Is there anything you wish to add by way of testimony at all?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

A. May I say something?

THE COURT: Objection sustained. You can confer with her.

Q. Do you wish to confer with me about anything I may have omitted?

A. Yes.

CONFERENCE BETWEEN DEFENDANT AND ATTORNEY.

Q. Now, Mrs. Baniszewski, with reference to the testimony about some writing on that Sylvia's stomach, do you know anything about that?

A. I never saw it done. I don't actually really know who done it except who they say done it and that is all.

Q. Did you do it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever commit any indignity, any way make any marks on that girl's body?

A. No, sir.

MR. ERBECKER: Your witness, Mr. Prosecutor.

THE COURT: The State will cross.

MR. NEW: Will there be cross examination by the other defendants?

THE COURT: State.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. LEROY NEW,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. Now, then, Mrs. Baniszewski, I will hand you what has been marked for purpose of identification as State's Exhibit No. 5. Have you seen that before?

MR. ERBECKER: We are going to object. It is outside the scope of direct examination.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Have I seen it before?

Q. Yes, ma'am.

A. If you are asking me, this particular piece of paper, have I seen it before?

Q. Yes.

A. I can't say I actually saw that actual piece of paper, no, sir.

Q. You testified in answer to Mr. Erbecker's question that you handed a note to the police officers. Is that the note you were testifying about?

A. I could not definitely say, no.

Q. Could you describe the note about which you were testifying?

A. I have no idea, I never read the note.

Q. What did you say to the police?

A. Only what I was told to say, no more.

Q. What were you told?

A. Sylvia had been out with a bunch of boys.

Q. Who told you to say that?

A. Like I told you, I don't know, one of the children.

Q. How do you know?

A. Because there was not anything - anybody there but the children.

Q. Nobody was there but your children?

A. No, sir, other people's children were there.

Q. Was it one of them that told you that?

A. I told you, I did not know, Mr. Prosecutor.

Q. You did tell the police officers this was a note. What else do you recall saying?

A. I don't remember.

Q. I see. Is it you have just forgotten here today or when did you lose this recollection?

A. No, it is not that I have forgotten here today.

Q. My question is, what is the reason you can't recall what you said to the police officer, if you recall giving him the note?

A. Because, like I told you, there was about - that house was full of people I know and I don't remember anything that was said to who by who or nothing, sir.

Q. Did you recall telling Officer Kaiser at police headquarters a short time later that you had done nothing wrong?

A. I believe I recall that.

Q. Do you recall that vividly?

A. No.

Q. Do you recall the nature of the dress you had on just after you handed the note to the police officer?

A. Do I remember the nature of the dress I had on?

Q. How you were dressed?

A. I believe so.

Q. It comes back to your memory?

A. No, it does not come back to my memory. I remember I had not had anything on but pajamas, except when I went to the doctor's, for several days.

Q. You recall having a glance at Sylvia on the 26th?

A. Yes.

Q. What time was that?

A. I vaguely remember seeing her laying on the floor in the basement and I vaguely recall seeing her on the mattress when the police came. I remember seeing her at a glance downstairs.

Q. What were you doing downstairs?

A. I was not down the steps.

Q. Where were you?

A. I was at the top of the stairs, at the door.

Q. When was that?

A. That was the day she died.

Q. What time of the day she died?

A. I don't know.

Q. Morning or afternoon?

A. No, it was when the children woke me up, it was Paula I believe.

Q. What time of day?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. Was it afternoon?

A. It was after she came home from work.

Q. What time would that be?

A. You would have to confer with Paula.

Q. What is your recollection?

A. I don't know. I never looked at the clock.

Q. What time did she come home?

A. You would have to ask Paula. She came home at different hours.

Q. Where did she work?

A. Stephanie's cafeteria.

Q. What hours?

A. I told you various hours.

Q. You don't recall what hours she worked?

A. I told you she only started Friday.

Q. You looked downstairs. What did you see?

A. The times I looked down there Paula was talking to her.

Q. Talking to who?

A. Sylvia.

Q. What did she say?

A. I don't know.

Q. How do you know she was talking to her?

A. Because I saw her talking to her.

Q. You recollect that?

A. I won't say I saw her. I heard her, but I don't know what she was saying to the girl, no.

Q. Did you look at her?

A. Who?

Q. Either Paula or Sylvia?

A. I just saw them both standing there.

Q. Where were they standing?

A. At the foot of the stairs, I believe.

Q. What were they doing?

A. I told you, talking.

Q. Did Sylvia respond?

A. As far as I know she did. I was not down there. I don't know.

Q. Did you hear her voice?

A. Sylvia's voice? Truthfully, I can't say I did, no.

Q. Was anyone else down there?

A. At that time you mean, at that particular time?

Q. Yes, you are telling me about an incident you overheard.

A. Johnny was at the top of the stairway.

Q. You just stood there and listened to this conversation?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. What did you do?

A. I don't really remember, Mr. Prosecutor.

Q. How long did you stand there?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did you say anything to John?

A. No, I don't recall talking to Johnny.

Q. Did he say anything to you?

A. I don't recall that either.

Q. Did Paula say anything to you?

A. I don't remember that.

Q. Did you say anything to Sylvia?

A. I am going back and tell you the same thing. There was about a dozen different kids in the house at the same time and I was not well anyway.

Q. Would you read the question, please?

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. I don't remember saying anything to her, no.

Q. You did testify before the Marion County Grand Jury December 8, 1965, did you not, Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. If that is the date you say, yes.

Q. At that time, did you take an oath, swear to tell the truth?

A. To what I thought was the truth, yes, sir.

Q. Did you do that at that time?

A. As far as I remember, yes, sir.

Q. Have you told the truth to the jury at this time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, I will ask you if it is not a fact, Mrs. Baniszewski, on December 8, 1965, this question was asked of you and you gave this answer under oath to the Marion County Grand Jury? Q. "What did you do or say"? A. "I asked her to please come up and let them clean her up and you know change her clothes". Was that the question given you and did you give that answer?

A. You were talking about one particular time to me a moment ago. You did not ask me when or if I spoke to Sylvia again.

Q. Would you read the question, please?

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

Q. That is the question.

A. This was in December, right, that you asked me this - supposedly asked me this question?

Q. Was that question asked you and did you give that answer to the Marion County Grand Jury under oath?

A. I don't remember whether I told you that or not.

Q. I will ask you if this question was asked you at the same time. Q. "What did she say"? I will ask if it is a fact you answered, A. "She would not do it".

MR. ERBECKER: We object. Proper foundation has not been laid for impeachment.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Was that question asked you and did you give that answer under oath to the Marion County Grand Jury?

A. I don't remember, Mr. Prosecutor.

Q. I will ask if this question was asked at the same time? Q. "O.K. Then what did you do"? I will ask if it is not a fact you gave this answer under oath, A. "Well, the smell and I wasn't feeling well anyway, like I told you, and it was gagging me and I started, you know, wanting to vomit so I came back up". Did you tell that to the Marion County Grand Jury in answer to that question?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. There is not the proper foundation laid for the impeaching question.

THE COURT: Overruled. Answer yes or no.

A. He will have to repeat.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Yes, I did. I think I did anyway.

Q. Was that the truth?

A. I remember starting down in the basement when Stephanie was down there one time and I could not stand it so I came back up. In fact, the children told me to get back upstairs.

Q. Did you speak to Sylvia?

A. I don't really - right now I don't remember speaking to her.

Q. Were you lying to the Grand Jury?

A. I was not lying, Mr. Prosecutor.

Q. Are you lying to this jury?

A. No, sir.

Q. So you don't recall whether you spoke to Sylvia?

A. There has been a lot of time between now and then.

MR. NEW: Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. I don't remember, no.

Q. Your recollection is now you don't remember?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, I will ask you if it is not also a fact, December 8, 1965, this question was asked you and this answer given to the Marion County Grand Jury? Q. "Then where did you go"? A. "I went back upstairs and I talked to her sister Jenny and I asked her to try to talk to her sister and get her up out of that basement". Did you give that answer to the Marion County Grand Jury?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. Proper foundation has not been laid.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I don't remember whether I told you that or not. I do remember Jenny being down there talking to her sister.

Q. Did you speak to Jenny?

A. Did I speak to Jenny Likens myself - yes, I did.

Q. Where was she when you spoke to her?

A. Upstairs.

Q. What did you say?

A. I asked what is the matter with your sister and she said, she is just faking.

Q. What made you ask what was the matter with her?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Because my children said Sylvia was down in the basement and would not come up.

Q. That made you ask Jenny what was the matter with her?

A. Yes.

Q. She said she was faking?

A. Yes.

Q. What else?

A. I asked her to go down and talk to her.

Q. Did you say anything else?

A. I don't remember saying anything else.

Q. Did Jenny say anything else?

A. I don't remember.

Q. I will ask you if it is not a fact, Mrs. Baniszewski, under oath December 8, 1965, this question was asked you and you gave this answer under oath to the Marion County Grand Jury?, Q. "Did she do that"?, and you gave this answer, A. "She, I think, said a few words to her and then came up and said, Oh, she always acts like this when she wants her own way, or something to that effect".

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. Alright, that is what I asked you. Now do you recall?

A. Yes.

Q. It came back to you?

A. No, it did not come back. You did not state it that way.

Q. Is that what Jenny said?

A. Something to that effect.

Q. What did you do?

A. Paula and Stephanie tried going down and talking to her. I don't know what he means, Mr. Rabb.

THE COURT: The question is - what did you do then.

Q. I asked you what did you do, not what Paula and Stephanie did - what did you do?

A. I really don't remember what I did at the time.

Q. Where did you go?

A. I was in the upper part of the house. I remember that.

Q. What were you doing?

A. Well, if I told you - there was a dozen kids, I know, in that house.

Q. In any event, Mrs. Baniszewski, you were not sleeping?

A. I don't think I was, no, sir, I was awake.

Q. You were talking to Jenny and looking down at Sylvia and Paula, so you were not sleeping then?

A. No, sir.

Q. You were up and about the house?

A. Yes, sir, at that time.

Q. What were you doing?

A. I don't remember everything I was doing, Mr. Prosecutor.

Q. Do you remember anything you were doing?

A. I remember that there was some - you know, going on - and I remember the kids talking to me telling me about half a dozen different things all at one time.

Q. Do you remember why you told the police Sylvia had been gone for two weeks and had just come back about an hour before, at the back door?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. He is talking about something not in evidence.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

Q. Do you remember why you said that?

A. No, I don't remember saying it period.

Q. Do you remember telling Ricky Hobbs to say it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Are you saying to this jury you did not say it?

A. I don't recall saying anything like that, no, sir.

Q. Did you hear Officer Dixon - were you present in this courtroom?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you hear what he said you told him?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did he tell the truth?

A. That is for him to decide.

Q. What is your answer?

A. I don't recall saying anything like that to him.

Q. You do recall giving him the note?

A. No.

Q. Do you have any recollection at this time as to why you would state that Sylvia had just come to the back door an hour before?

A. No, sir.

Q. Are you telling the jury you did not say that to Officer Dixon?

A. I don't remember saying anything like that to him, no.

Q. You are saying you don't remember it?

A. No, I don't remember saying anything like that to him.

Q. Do you remember talking to Officer Kaiser?

A. Not right offhand, no.

Q. I thought you told Mr. Erbecker you recalled telling Officer Kaiser you had done nothing wrong?

A. You asked me - Mr. Erbecker asked me if I remembered saying anything to Mr. Kaiser when I was brought downtown.

Q. Did you tell Mr. Erbecker, in front of this jury, you remembered saying to Mr. Kaiser you had done nothing wrong?

A. Mr. Kaiser asked me - I asked him if I could call an attorney and he said, "Have you done anything wrong"?

MR. NEW: Would you read the question, please?

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Yes, I remember telling Mr. Kaiser that.

Q. Was that the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. O.K. Now, do you recall what else you told him?

A. Well, it all depends on when you say I said this.

Q. At the same time you said you had done nothing wrong?

A. I believe I said that to Mr. Kaiser several times.

Q. Let's take one time you testified to Mr. Erbecker you said that. When was that?

A. The night when we were brought in here, I remember Stephanie telling me we should call an attorney.

MR. NEW: Would you read the question, please?

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. That was the night we were brought in here.

Q. Is that when you told him you had done nothing wrong?

A. Yes, sir, because he asked me if I had done anything wrong.

Q. Do you remember that distinctly?

A. Yes, because I remember Stephanie hounded me pretty badly about calling an attorney.

Q. Do you remember what else you said besides that?

A. Not too much.

Q. Do you remember talking to Officer Kaiser the next morning?

A. Yes, sir, I think so.

Q. Do you remember what you said and what he said?

A. You mean word for word do I remember?

Q. In substance what you said and what he said?

A. I know what he was accusing me of and what I said.

Q. What did you tell him?

A. I had not done anything wrong.

Q. Is it a fact, Mrs. Baniszewski, you told Officer Kaiser at 9:50 A.M. The morning of the 27th of October, that before Ricky Hobbs marked Sylvia with a needle, you asked her - that is Sylvia - if she knew what a tattoo was?

A. No, sir, I did not tell Mr. Kaiser any such thing as that.

Q. Your answer is you did not say that?

A. No, I did not.

Q. I will ask you if it is not a fact at that time you also were asked by Officer Kaiser why you had kept Sylvia down in the basement and you stated because she wet the bed?

A. I don't recall telling him anything like that either.

Q. I will ask if it is not a fact October 27th, that Officer Kaiser asked you the reason - if the reason she wet the bed was that so many people had hurt her they might have injured her kidneys and you answered you did not know?

A. I don't recall saying anything like that to him.

Q. I will ask you if it is not a fact you told Officer Kaiser you also knew your son John marked Sylvia with a hot poker?

A. I did not tell him any such thing as that, no, sir.

Q. I will ask you, as a matter of knowledge, what Coy Hubbard had done?

A. These are things Sgt. Kaiser told me were done. I did not tell him they were done.

Q. Did you deny it?

A. I most certainly did.

Q. Do you deny it now?

A. It was not done in my presence.

Q. You never saw Coy Hubbard do any damage to this girl?

A. Damage, no.

Q. What did you see him do?

A. Hit her on the arm.

Q. With what?

A. His fist.

Q. When?

A. I don't remember the exact month.

Q. What month?

A. It was at the first part of October, I believe.

Q. What did he do to her?

A. Just hit her on the arm.

Q. Did he knock her down?

A. Not at that time, no.

Q. Did you ever see him knock her down?

A. Once she fell off balance. I don't think he did it deliberately though.

Q. When was that?

A. Shortly after that, not too long.

Q. Did you actually see him hit her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was she when she got hit?

A. In the kitchen.

Q. What was she doing?

A. They were having a few words. I think over something Sylvia said about Stephanie.

Q. So Coy Hubbard hit her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Knocked her down?

A. I did not say he knocked her down.

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is beyond the scope of direct examination.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. What did you say?

A. I said she fell down.

Q. After she got hit, she fell down?

A. Yes, but I don't think he hit her that hard.

Q. Now, you say you were home during all this time during the month of October, is that correct, except for the times you testified you went to the doctor?

A. I believe my children walked me to the store once in a while. I think I went to Huncilman's once or twice to see someone I knew.

Q. Were you home every night?

A. I think I went shopping at Zayre's to get things for the children a time or two.

Q. Did you sleep at home?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Sylvia sleep upstairs or in the basement?

A. Upstairs.

Q. Every night?

A. To my knowledge.

Q. You are telling the jury you did not have her sleeping in the basement?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you hear your daughter Shirley say you did?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did she tell the truth?

A. No, sir, she did not.

Q. Did you ever burn Sylvia with a cigarette?

A. No, sir.

Q. Not once?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, you did hear Shirley testify you had done that a number of times?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did she tell the truth?

A. No, sir, she did not.

Q. Now, was Sylvia pretty belligerent to you?

A. Are you just saying just Sylvia - is that what you want to know, just Sylvia was belligerent to me?

MR. NEW: Read the question, please.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. I never fussed and quarreled with Sylvia.

Q. Then your answer is "No"?

A. She would not do anything I told her, no.

Q. She was disobedient?

A. She would not mind me, no.

Q. Did you whip her for that?

A. I believe I testified I whipped her, or tried to one time.

Q. How many times was she disobedient to you?

A. I told you she would not mind me at all.

Q. How many times?

A. I think I answered your question. I said she would not mind at all.

Q. Ever?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. O.K. Then you did not like her?

A. I did not dislike her, no.

Q. Did you like her because she disobeyed you at all times?

A. I felt sorry for Sylvia.

Q. Did you dislike her?

A. I did not dislike her.

Q. Did you strike her in the head with a poker?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear the statement you son John has signed?

A. Yes.

Q. He said you did hit her in the head with a poker. Was he telling the truth?

A. No, he did not.

Q. Did you hear the statement of John Baniszewski, introduced in evidence as Exhibit No. 28, state you had burned her with matches and cigarettes?

A. Yes, I heard that statement.

Q. Did he tell the truth or are you telling the truth when you say you did not, or is he telling the truth when he said you did?

A. He is not telling the truth, no.

Q. Do you know why he is lying on you?

A. I imagine he is pretty scared little boy.

Q. Was he on October 27th?

A. I imagine he was. I imagine if someone died in their home, they would be.

Q. Were you scared?

A. I have been scared a long time about a lot of things.

Q. Were you scared October 27 when you talked to Officer Kaiser?

A. Yes, sir, I imagine I was, yes, sir.

Q. Were you - what were you afraid of?

A. I beg your pardon?

Q. What were you afraid of?

A. Well, there was a dead body in my home.

Q. And you caused it, did you?

A. No, sir.

Q. As a matter of fact, you burned the girl a number of times and scalded her with hot water?

A. No, sir.

Q. You burned her with cigarettes as many as one hundred and fifty times?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know how those wounds got on her body?

A. No, sir, I don't.

Q. Are you telling the jury you don't know who did it?

A. No.

Q. Are you telling the jury your children did it?

A. No, I am not telling the jury my children did it.

Q. Who else was in the house?

A. There were a number of children in the house.

Q. Now, I will hand you what has been marked for the purpose of identification as State's Exhibit No. 19.

A. I have seen that. I don't want to look at it again. I told you I am pretty nervous and upset.

Q. I understand, but if you did not do the damage -

A. I saw it in the Grand Jury, Mr. Prosecutor.

Q. I will ask you -

A. Do I have to?

THE COURT: Can you answer?

A. No, I did not do that.

THE COURT: Next question, please.

Q. I will hand what has been marked for the purpose of identification as State's Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to examine this and ask you if it is not a fact on this girl's stomach the letter I appears there just below center and was scratched on her stomach by you with a needle?

A. No, sir.

Q. Have you seen this exhibit?

A. I don't want to see any of them, if you don't mind.

Q. Why is it you can't look at this girl's dead body?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Why don't I? I don't think anything dead would be very pleasant.

Q. I understand the reason you don't want to look at it. You did the damage.

A. No, sir.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Now, Mrs. Baniszewski, I will hand you what is marked for the purpose of identification as State's Exhibit No. 4. I will ask you to examine that girl's back where the skin has been scalded and removed and gashes and craters appear there. Is it your answer to this jury that you did not do that to this girl?

A. That is right.

Q. When was it placed on her back?

A. I don't have any idea.

Q. Were they done in your home?

A. I would not have any idea.

Q. Now, Mrs. Baniszewski, I will hand you what has been marked State's Exhibit No. 14. You can look at that, can't you? I will ask you to examine that and tell the jury whether or not you ever struck the girl in the head with it?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never hit her in the head at all?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever strike her at all with State's Exhibit No. 14?

A. I don't remember if that is what I paddled her with or not. I don't remember.

Q. You don't know whether you ever hit her?

A. I told you in the Grand Jury I tried to spank her one time. It could have been with that paddle, yes, sir.

Q. What is your recollection now?

A. I did not have a habit of whipping my children or anybody else's children.

MR. NEW: Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. I head what you said. I don't recall whether it was with the paddle or my hand.

Q. Is your answer that at no time did you ever hit Sylvia Likens in the head with this paddle?

A. No. I did not.

Q. You never did. Well, Mrs. Baniszewski, I will hand you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 12 and ask if you ever hit her across the face with that, say within forty-eight hours of the time she died?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever hit her across the face with that any time?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear her sister, Jenny, testify?

A. I heard her sister Jenny, yes, sir.

Q. She is not telling the truth?

A. No, sir.

Q. I will hand you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 11 and ask you to examine that and tell the jury whether you have ever seen that before?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never saw it before it came in this courtroom?

A. I had no knowledge a thing like that was even in my home, if that is what it was.

Q. You never saw it before it came to the courtroom?

A. No, sir.

Q. I will hand you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 15 and ask if you ever saw that before?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is it?

A. That is my ex-husband's police belt.

Q. Did you ever hit Sylvia Likens with that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever hit Jenny with it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever hit anybody with it?

A. Maybe several years ago.

Q. How many?

A. Maybe two or three years ago, three maybe.

Q. Why did you keep it unless you used it?

A. I did not keep it. If I remember, it was left at the children's father's house. He brought it over to correct Johnny with.

Q. He left it at your house?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you hit the children with the metal end when you struck them?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Your answer is you never hit Sylvia with it at all?

A. No. I did not even hit my own children with it.

Q. Alright, now then, Mrs. Baniszewski, did you ever see Richard Hobbs strike Sylvia Likens?

MR. ERBECKER: We object, Your Honor, it is beyond the scope of direct examination.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, sir.

Q. Did anyone ever tell you he did?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you ever have a conversation with your daughter Paula regarding Richard Hobbs?

A. No, sir.

MR. ERBECKER: We object, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The answer will go out.

Q. Let me ask you this. I ask you, if on December 8, 1965, Mrs. Baniszewski. I did not ask you this question and if you did not give this answer under oath, Q. "What did you hear"? A. "My daughter Paula said Ricky had hit her on the head". Did you give that answer under oath?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you testify in answer to Mr. Erbecker's question that you did not go upstairs where this dead girl was?

A. I believe I tried going up there several times, yes.

Q. My question was, did you go up there?

A. After the police came, I believe.

Q. Did you go up there before?

A. I tried to, yes, sir.

Q. How far did you go?

A. As far as Ricky or Stephanie would let me.

Q. Where was that?

A. Not quite upstairs.

Q. Were they standing on the stairs?

A. Ricky was part of the time.

Q. What did he say?

A. For me to get back downstairs.

Q. Did you do that?

A. With a little encouragement.

Q. What kind of encouragement?

A. A little pushing.

Q. What did you say or do?

A. I don't remember what I said or did at that time.

Q. You just have a blank spot there?

A. No, it is not a blank spot, Mr. Prosecutor.

Q. Why is it you can't remember what you did?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. NEW: Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. I did not know I was supposed to remember every detail and I don't.

Q. That is your answer to my question?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, I think you told Mr. Erbecker that before Sylvia Likens ever came to your house, some woman came and claimed Sylvia had been out with her husband?

A. That is right.

Q. You took her in your home after you knew that?

A. The girl just said to -

MR. NEW: Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. I did not see Sylvia out with this woman's husband.

Q. Did you question it?

A. Did I question it, no, sir.

Q. It was after that you allowed Sylvia and Jenny to come to your home, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You say you did not ask to keep them?

A. No, sir.

Q. But you did keep them?

A. I was supposed to keep them a couple of week, yes, sir.

Q. You were to be paid?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were paid?

A. Not regularly, no.

Q. How much did you receive?

A. Just a little over $200.00.

Q. About $100.00 over $200.00?

A. No, sir.

Q. Then the receipts Mr. Likens put in evidence - you did not get the money?

A. Just a little over $200.00 is about all he ever paid me.

Q. Let's take a look and see what the truth is. Now then, Mrs. Baniszewski, I will ask you to look at those receipts which are marked State's Exhibit No. 24, consisting of eleven counter parts and ask you to tell the jury whether you got the money as represented by those receipts?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What do they total?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. They speak for themselves.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Is your answer still you only got a little over $200.00?

A. That is all.

Q. How much is a little over?

A. I think he paid me twice in cash.

Q. What is the total you got?

A. About $240.00.

Q. Now then, did you state you had been to Dr. Lindenborg's office Saturday preceding her death?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you take Sylvia with you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why did you not take her for treatment of the wounds?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is assuming something not in evidence.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. If I had know she had wounds, I would have took her.

Q. You said you ate supper with her the night before she died?

A. I never ate supper with her.

Q. Not at all?

A. Not the night before she died.

Q. When did you last eat supper with her?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did you ever eat with her?

A. I was not eating regular, at the table.

Q. Neither was she, was she, Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. How do you know?

A. I don't imagine my kids lie to me completely.

Q. Your kids had been telling you all this, is that the idea?

A. Not all of it, no.

Q. Are you trying to tell this jury, Mrs. Baniszewski, your children did all the damage?

A. I did not say that, Mr. Prosecutor.

Q. Is that what you are trying to say?

A. No.

Q. Who did?

A. I don't know.

Q. You are saying you did not do it?

A. I did not.

Q. You were in bed a great deal of time and the children were doing things you did not know they were doing?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I imagine they were doing quite a few things I did not know.

Q. To Sylvia?

A. I would not know that.

Q. Richard Hobbs was in the house on Saturday?

A. He was Saturday evening.

Q. Did you see him there?

A. Late Saturday evening.

Q. Who else did you see there Saturday?

A. Saturday evening?

Q. Any time Saturday?

A. My children were there.

Q. Were you there?

A. I would imagine I was in bed most of the day.

Q. Did you say you were in bed all day?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where else were you?

A. At the doctor's.

Q. What time?

A. I had to be there at 10.00 o'clock.

Q. Were you there then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You got home about what time?

A. I am not sure of the exact time.

Q. How long did you stay at the doctor's?

A. I don't know. I had to wait for a cab after he was there to come home. I don't know.

Q. Did you come straight home?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that after noon?

A. I don't remember. I think around noon.

Q. Were you home the rest of the day?

A. In bed, yes, sir.

Q. Did you hear the testimony of Shirley?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did you hear the testimony of Jenny?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did you hear them state Saturday afternoon, before Sylvia died that you started branding this girl?

A. Yes, I heard that.

Q. Did they all lie?

A. That is right.

Q. The fact is, you are lying, isn't it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, did you state to Mr. Erbecker that you heard Sylvia ask her father if she could stay with you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Alright, did Sylvia know you then?

A. She had been around the house all that day.

Q. I see, and it was her idea to stay?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did not want her to stay?

A. I merely stated I had too much responsibility of my own.

Q. Why did you not decline, why did you not tell the children you would not keep the children.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you tell them you would not keep the children?

A. I told him I did not think I could. He asked me please if I would keep them a couple of weeks till he got he and his wife straightened out.

Q. He urged you?

A. Yes, and the children coaxed me.

Q. After you got the children, did you treat them well?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you feed them well?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Sylvia keep her weight?

A. As far as I know.

Q. Did she lose weight while she was there?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. You would know, you were there?

A. Sylvia got so - she rather stayed away - I mean she did as she darn pleased.

Q. Did she stay in the basement?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she ever stay in the basement?

A. She went down in the basement on various occasions.

Q. In the night?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you in the basement the night before she died?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear Mrs. Vermillion say you did?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is she lying?

A. Yes, she is. I know who was down in the basement.

Q. Who was in the basement?

A. Stephanie and Paula Marie.

Q. What were they doing?

A. Shoveling coal and Stephanie dropped a lump of coal on Paula's foot.

Q. Were you there?

A. No, sir.

Q. How long were they down there?

A. You would have to ask Paula and Stephanie.

Q. You stated it as a fact. If you were not there, how do you know?

A. I was woke up later.

Q. How long after?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did they tell you how long they were down there?

A. No, they did not.

Q. Did you hear Mrs. Vermillion state she had been in your house when there was hot water thrown by Paula?

A. Yes, I heard that.

Q. Is she lying?

A. She most certainly is.

Q. Is there any particular reason why she would lie on you?

A. I would not have any idea.

Q. Do you - you don't have anything against her?

A. I don't know the woman that well.

Q. Has she been in your home?

A. One time.

Q. When was that?

A. In September.

Q. What was she doing?

A. She came over and had a cup of coffee with me.

Q. That is what she said. What else?

A. That is all. She talked about her children and her life.

Q. Was Sylvia there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was anyone else there?

A. Dennis.

Q. Was Paula there?

A. No, sir.

Q. So the whole story Mrs. Vermillion told was a lie. Is that what you are stating to the jury?

A. There is no truth to what she said.

Q. Do you know why she would say it?

A. I think it was a lot of imagination.

Q. You are sure you are not lying?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Stephanie in the basement with Sylvia just before she died?

A. Pardon?

Q. Did you ever see Stephanie in the basement with Sylvia just before she died?

A. Did I see Stephanie down in the basement? You mean on the day Sylvia died?

Q. Yes.

A. I saw her - I glanced down in the basement and saw Stephanie standing down in the basement.

Q. Stephanie, Paula and Sylvia. Did you see anyone else?

A. Did I see anyone else in the basement? Richard Hobbs.

Q. What did you see Richard Hobbs doing down in the basement?

A. I did not see him doing anything.

Q. Where was he?

A. Standing in the basement.

Q. What was Sylvia doing?

A. They were talking to Sylvia.

Q. Do you recall what they were saying?

A. On the day she died?

Q. That is right. Do you recall what they were saying?

A. No, sir.

Q. But they were talking?

A. Yes, I could hear voices.

Q. Where was Sylvia when Richard Hobbs was down there?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. Where did you see her?

A. I believe she was sitting at the bottom of the stairs. I don't know.

Q. Did you hear any sounds she made?

A. No, sir.

Q. You said they were talking. Were they talking to each other or to Sylvia?

A. They were all talking.

Q. To each other?

A. I don't know.

Q. You said something was the matter with her because she would not come up?

A. They said there was something the matter with her.

Q. I thought you said that to Jenny, for her to go down and find what was the matter?

A. That is what I said.

Q. You said there was something the matter?

A. I did not mean what you are saying. I said, "Go down and find why". I meant why she would not come upstairs.

Q. Why did you want her upstairs?

A. I could not see any reason she would want to stay down there.

Q. Why, at that particular time?

A. The children said she had dirtied all over everything and -

Q. And you wanted it upstairs instead of downstairs?

MR. ERBECKER: We object and move that be stricken from the evidence.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, we will be in recess a while, ten or fifteen minutes. By agreement of parties and with the consent of the State and defendant made in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. Let's see if we can reconvene in twenty minutes. During the recess, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Do not form or express any opinion on the case till it is finally submitted to you. Don't read any newspaper articles that may appear about the case and don't watch anything or listen to anything that may be broadcast about this case. Jury and Alternate Jurors are excused.

JURY EXCUSED.

THE COURT: How many of you people in the audience want to stay? Hold up your hands. Why don't those who don't want to stay just go. If you don't want to stay, just go. If you do stay, you are supposed to keep still and listen, understand me? I will know when you don't want to stay. When I hear you make noises, whisper, I will tell you all to go. If you want to be on your good behavior, you may stay. We are in recess.

RECESS.

THE COURT: Bring the defendants. Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: You may be seated.

MR. ERBECKER: At this time we move the court to admonish the jury to disregard the outburst of the spectators.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen, you will decide the evidence from what you hear from the witness stand and no other source. You will ignore the whispering, laughter, anything you hear from the courtroom.

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, did you tell the jury, under oath, you did not go upstairs and see Sylvia Likens before the police came?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that the truth or is that a lie?

A. That is the truth.

Q. Now, when you were sworn to tell the truth before the Marion County Grand Jury, did you tell the truth?

A. Before I went to the Grand Jury?

Q. At the time you were before the Grand Jury, testifying under oath?

A. At the time I went before the Grand Jury, I was pretty afraid for my children.

Q. Did you tell the truth? That was my question.

A. To my knowledge. I thought I told the truth, yes, sir.

Q. Then, Mrs. Baniszewski, let me ask you if this question was not asked you on December 8, 1965, and if you did not give this answer, under oath? Q. "Alright, but as she went through and you had to step out of the way so they could carry her by, you said her eyes were open so you must have seen them"? A. "Uh huh. When I went upstairs the one time, her eyes were open then". Did you give that answer, under oath, to the Marion County Grand Jury, under oath?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Were her eyes open when you went upstairs?

A. You mean after the police came?

Q. No, when her eyes were open. That is what you said, didn't you?

A. I might have said her eyes were open when I saw the children carrying her through the house.

Q. Were they open?

A. I believe they were.

Q. What - - was Sylvia seeing?

A. I don't recall that.

Q. Was that upstairs then?

A. On the first floor.

Q. Not upstairs?

A. On the second - third floor, you mean?

Q. Where ever you mean when you told this?

A. I was referring to my bedroom and that is on the first floor.

Q. Is that where you saw her with her eyes open?

A. As they were going through the house with her, yes.

Q. You looked at her face?

A. Just at a glance, yes, sir.

Q. At that glance, when you looked at her face and observed her eyes were open, did you also observe the whole left side of her face was scalded and the skin had been burned off it?

A. I never saw anything like that, no, sir.

Q. Did you look at her face so you could see?

A. I don't believe I looked at ever detail, no, sir.

Q. You missed that detail and you saw her eyes open?

A. I am not so sure the left side was toward me.

Q. Do you say you just saw one side of her?

A. I said I saw them carry her through the house.

Q. Was that the last time you saw Sylvia Likens before the police came?

MR. ERBECKER: We object to that question, Your Honor, because it is assuming something not in evidence.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see her after they bathed her and changed her clothes?

MR. ERBECKER: We object to that. It is assuming something not in evidence.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I don't believe I did, no, sir.

Q. I will ask you if it is not a fact, Mrs. Baniszewski, under oath to the Marion County Grand Jury, December 8, 1965, you were asked this question, and you gave this answer to that question, under oath? Q. "Was she dressed"? A. "Yes, sir, Stephanie had dressed her in some dry clothes, I guess". Q. "Had you been upstairs before that"? A. "Just once I think when they had her laid out on the floor by the bathroom door".

A. Yes, I think I did say that. I was not completely upstairs. I was only to the stair landing and it was only at a glance I saw her and I know what Stephanie said to me.

Q. Was she dressed when you saw her?

A. As far as I could tell, she had clothes on, yes, sir.

Q. How was she dressed?

A. I do not remember the exact clothes.

Q. Had her clothes been changed between the time you saw her when her eyes were open and the time you saw her upstairs?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you notice how she was dressed?

A. They had a blanket, I believe, around her.

Q. Upstairs?

A. This was on the first floor I am referring to.

Q. They had a blanket wrapped around her?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever - did you have any reason not to want to look at that girl at that time?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. As a matter of fact, Mrs. Baniszewski, this whole line testimony you have given this jury has been a lie and the fact is you were down in the basement with Sylvia at the time Paula and Johnny and Stephanie and Jenny were down there and you were using a hose on her, hosing her off?

A. No, sir.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled. The answer will stay in.

Q. Did you put soap on her?

A. No.

Q. You were not down in the basement at all with Sylvia Likens before she died?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear Jenny Likens say you took both feet and stepped on her head while she was down there?

A. Yes, I heard it.

Q. Did you do that?

A. No, sir.

Q. You stated that you did not go all the way upstairs, at least until the police came, is that what you said?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. He has been over it three or times.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. That is what I said.

Q. Did you hit Sylvia in the head with a book about thirty minutes before she actually expired and died?

A. No.

Q. That is not true?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see anybody else hit her with a book?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, I will hand you what has been marked for the purpose of identification as State's Exhibit No. 28 and I will ask you to look at the statement of your son John Baniszewski.

A. I have already read it, Mr. Prosecutor.

Q. I will ask you if it is not a fact your son John, on the 27th, said you did hit her in the head with a book?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you hit her in the head with a book?

A. No, sir.

Q. When he said that, it was a lie?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. I will ask you also if you did not put a gag into Sylvia's mouth?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you tell John to put a gag in Sylvia's mouth?

A. No, sir.

Q. You say you have read his statement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is it a lie when he said you told him to put a gag her mouth so she would not make so much noise?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: The jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict.

Q. Did you ever hear Sylvia moan?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear Randy Lepper's testimony the other day in court?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you hear him say you were sitting downstairs knitting while Sylvia was upstairs moaning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did he tell the truth?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you knitting?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear a moan?

A. No, sir.

Q. I see, you did not hear any sounds?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see Randy Lepper the day she died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you let him in the house?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did he bring you the hose?

A. He did not bring me no hose, no.

Q. Did you hear him say you took it from him?

A. No.

Q. Did he lie?

A. He sure did.

Q. Now then, did you tell John to tell the police that Sylvia had been gone two weeks and had just returned that day?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, did you hear the reading of Paula Marie Baniszewski's statement?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And did you hear her, in that statement, say you had thrown a coke bottle at Sylvia?

A. Yes, I heard that.

Q. Did you do that?

A. No.

Q. She lied when she said that?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you hear the reading of Miss Paula Marie Baniszewski's statement in which she said you hit Sylvia with a board ten times, four during the last week, did you hear that?

A. Repeat that.

Q. Did you hear the reading of Paula Marie Baniszewski's statement in which she said you hit Sylvia ten times with a board, four times during the last week?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Is that true?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you also hear Paula Marie's statement in which she said, "I have seen my Mom burn Sylvia Likens on the arms, back and leg with a cigarette about fifteen times during the past week". Did you hear that?

A. I don't recall that part of the statement, no.

Q. Is that a fact or is it not a fact?

A. No, it is not a fact.

Q. None of that is true?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never burned her with a cigarette?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you tell Officer Kaiser you burned her with a cigarette a month ago?

A. No.

Q. Did you hear him testify to that?

A. Yes, I heard.

Q. Is that true?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Did you hear the reading of Paula Marie Baniszewski's statement, where she said, "Mom pushed Sylvia down the stair steps several times", did you hear the reading of that statement?

A. I don't remember that part.

Q. Let me ask you, did you do that?

A. No, sir.

Q. That is not true?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is it your answer to this jury, under oath, you never pushed Sylvia downstairs?

A. That is right.

Q. Did you hear the reading of Coy Hubbard's statement, Exhibit No. 25, Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did you hear in the statement he said in answer to the question, "Did you any time see Mrs. Wright burn Sylvia Likens"? That he said, "Yes, I saw her burn her on the hand one time".

A. I don't recall hearing it.

Q. Is that true?

A. No, it is not.

Q. Ricky Hobbs did not tell the truth or Coy Hubbard did not tell the truth?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. I will ask if you heard further Coy Hubbard said in answer to the question, Q. "Did you anytime see Mrs. Wright hit Sylvia with anything"? A. "Yes, one time I saw Mrs. Wright hit Sylvia in the head with a board".

A. I did not.

Q. You never did hit her in the head with a board?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, then, did you hear the reading of Richard Hobbs' statement to the jury, which is Exhibit No. 18, did you hear that?

A. I believe I did, yes, sir.

Q. You heard the reading of that. Did you hear in that statement the question was asked, Q. "Do you know how long Mrs. Wright kept Sylvia down in the basement"?, and he said, A. "At first I thought she was in Juvenile Center and Gertie told me she was keeping her down in the basement".

A. Yes, I heard that.

Q. Is that true?

A. No.

Q. Did you tell Richard Hobbs that was a fact?

A. No, I did not.

Q. You did not tell him? I will ask if it is not a fact - did you hear the statement of Richard Hobbs read, wherein he was asked, Q. "Can you tell us what happened yesterday afternoon at the house, just before she died"?, and Richard Hobbs said, A. "When I got to the house, I thought Sylvia was gone, because Gertie told me she was going to get rid of her the night before"., Did you tell Richard Hobbs that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever tell anybody you were going to get rid of Sylvia Likens?

A. No.

Q. Did you try to get rid of her?

A. No.

Q. Did you know she and Johnny were supposed to go dump her in Jimmy's woods?

A. I heard it.

Q. Is that true or false?

A. That was not true.

Q. Do you know a place called Jimmy's woods?

A. No.

Q. I will hand you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 17 and ask you to look at that and tell the jury where you got that?

A. I don't know that I had that.

Q. Did you ever give it to Officer Kaiser?

A. I don't recall giving it to him, no.

Q. He said you did. Do you deny it?

A. Yes, I deny it.

Q. Where did he get it?

A. I would not have any idea.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. The answer will go out. The jury will ignore the answer in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. Did you ever see that before?

A. No.

Q. Never in your life?

A. Not to my knowledge, no.

Q. Do you have any idea why Sgt. Kaiser would say you gave it to him?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. I will ask you to look at what has been marked State's Exhibit No. 23. Look at that carefully. Do you know who that is?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Who is that?

A. Sylvia - that is Sylvia Likens.

Q. Did you notice her hair there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was that how long her hair was when she died?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why not?

A. She had it cut.

Q. By whom?

A. Paula Marie cut it.

Q. Were you there?

A. Not present in the room, no.

Q. How do you know Paula cut it?

A. Paula told me she did.

Q. I see, now, did Sylvia have sores on her body?

A. Not to my knowledge, no.

Q. Did she have sores in her head?

A. She had a scalp infection at one time.

Q. What did you do to that?

A. Made her wash it good with soap and water.

Q. Do you know whether she did or not?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because I watched her.

Q. You actually grabbed her by the hair and put her head under the hot water?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear Shirley Baniszewski say you did?

A. I heard it.

Q. Did she tell the truth?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she have sores on her body you were aware of?

A. She had a sore on her foot one time from the shoes she was wearing.

Q. Did you treat it?

A. Yes, with peroxide and merthiolate.

Q. Did you ever give it any other treatment besides that?

A. Possibly alcohol one time.

Q. Did you give her alcohol on her wounds?

A. There was alcohol there, yes.

Q. When did you do that?

A. I don't recall any dates.

Q. Within two weeks before she died?

A. I don't remember exact dates.

Q. Do you actually remember putting alcohol on her?

A. Oh, yes, sir.

Q. On what part of her body?

A. On her foot.

Q. On her knee or any other part of her body?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever make her insert a pepsi cola or coke bottle between her legs?

A. No, sir.

Q. You heard Jenny say you did that twice?

A. I heard her.

Q. That is not true?

A. No, sir.

Q. Can you think of any other medical treatment you might have given Sylvia Likens from the time she arrived at your house and the time she was dead, other than merthiolate alcohol and peroxide?

A. Just aspirin.

Q. How many aspirins did you give her?

A. Not over two at a time when she had them.

Q. How often would you do that?

A. When she needed them.

Q. How often was that?

A. It was not very often.

Q. What did she need them for?

A. Either a headache - and she had an upset stomach once in the summer.

Q. Is that what you gave aspirin for, and upset stomach?

A. She was running a slight temperature, yes.

Q. How often did you give her aspirin?

A. When she needed them.

Q. You don't recall how ofter it was necessary?

A. It was not very often.

Q. Did you ever talk to Dr. Paul Lindenborg about Sylvia's injuries?

A. No, sir

Q. Not to her foot?

A. No.

Q. Did she ever fall when you pushed her on the stairs?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I did not push her down the stairs.

Q. That is your answer?

A. That is it.

Q. Did she ever cut her knee?

A. She may have at one time. I don't know.

Q. Would you have seen it if she did?

A. She would not tell me very much of anything.

Q. Would you have seen it if she did?

A. If she would have showed it to me, I would have seen it.

Q. Did you see it?

A. No, sir, I don't recall one.

Q. Did you ever put salt on any wounds?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever give Paula or Coy Hubbard the salt box to put salt on any wounds?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever put salt on your children's wounds?

A. I don't recall doing anything like that.

Q. Was Sylvia ever pregnant?

A. I would not not have any idea.

Q. While she lived with you?

A. I did not examine her. I am not a doctor.

Q. Would you say she was?

A. I merely stated a fact she had not menstruated.

Q. When did you say that?

A. I believe I stated it to her mother and father.

Q. Over what period of time, had she failed to menstruate?

A. She had not all the time she had been with us.

Q. From the first of July on?

A. That is right, sir.

Q. Then you believed her to be pregnant?

A. That is not always necessary, not always the cause for the cause of not menstruating.

Q. I am not talking about what is not always the cause.

A. I am not a doctor.

Q. Did you believe her to be pregnant?

A. I am not a doctor. I would not have any idea.

Q. Did you believe her to be pregnant?

A. Well, that is the usual, the first impression people get.

THE COURT: Miss Witness, answer yes or no or you don't know, please.

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know whether you believed it?

A. I did not have an opinion either way.

Q. As a matter of fact, you made it all up today on the stand about her being pregnant, is that not the truth?

A. No, I did not make anything up.

Q. Did you hear her mother's and father's testimony?

A. I most certainly did.

Q. Did they mention it?

A. They did not mention a lot of things.

Q. They were not telling the whole truth?

A. They sure were not.

Q. But you are?

A. I have no reason to lie.

Q. Now, did you wash the basement before the police came?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did anyone wash the basement?

A. To my actual knowledge, I don't know.

Q. You don't know whether anyone did or not?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you tell the police when they came that Sylvia had been down in the basement a short time before they came?

A. I don't remember telling the police that, no.

Q. Why didn't you?

MR. ERBECKER: We are going to object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. You had seen her in the basement, had you not?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And you said she dirtied on herself?

A. They did not go into any details with me at all.

Q. Did you?

A. They did not ask for any details or ask me much of anything.

Q. A dead body in your home and they did not ask you for details?

A. They were pretty busy talking to everyone else, I believe.

Q. Did they talk to you?

A. Not too much, no.

Q. Did you tell them the truth at the scene, as far as you can recall?

A. I don't remember telling them too much of anything I told you.

Q. What you do recall, was it the truth?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why did you lie to the police then at the scene?

A. Because I had been told a lot of things before the police had been summoned to the home.

Q. By whom?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Well, the children had told me several things.

Q. About whom?

A. Sylvia.

Q. About what they had done to Sylvia?

A. Not particularly, no.

Q. Why would you lie to the police if it was not anything they had done to Sylvia?

A. Because I did not know what was wrong with her, anything that had happened, and I did not know what to say period.

Q. You felt the truth would hurt you?

A. Not particularly. How can you tell something you don't know?

Q. But you did not tell them the truth at the scene?

A. I did not know what to tell them.

Q. The reason you did not tell them the truth at the scene, Mrs. Baniszewski, was because you had killed the girl, is that true?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, Mrs. Baniszewski, are you claiming you were insane October 26th?

A. I am not claiming anything.

Q. I thought you were. Don't you say you were insane October 26, file a pleading here telling the jury you were an insane person?

A. I beg your pardon.

MR. NEW: Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. I would not be a very good judge of that, I don't think.

Q. Don't you have an Answer in Five Paragraphs on file that claims you were of unsound mind October 26th?

A. I am not a psychiatrist.

Q. What is your claim now before the jury?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I would not know whether I was insane or sane. I am not a judge of that.

Q. At the present time do you believe you were?

A. I beg your pardon?

Q. At the present time, now you are under oath, do you believe you were insane October 26th?

A. Do I believe I was insane?

Q. Yes.

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you do anything October 26th that would lead you to believe you were insane then?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I would not know whether I was insane or sane.

Q. My question was - was there anything you did that you recall on October 26th that would make you now say to the jury you were insane?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I did not do anything to make myself believe I was insane, no.

Q. The opposite of that is - as far as you know, you were sane?

A. I am not a psychiatrist.

Q. Do you recall the events that happened?

A. Not everything, sir.

Q. Do you recall the events that happened on the day before she died?

A. Not everything, no, sir.

Q. Do you recall going to the doctor?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall specifically the hour you were supposed to arrive?

A. Not specifically, no, sir, I could not tell you the exact time I got there or got back.

Q. I thought you told Mr. Erbecker when your appointment was.

A. It so happens I have gone to Dr. Lindenborg a long time. I know what the heaviest hours are.

Q. Did you tell Mr. Erbecker when your appointment was for the day before this girl died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That came back?

A. I did not have no definite appointment that day, just in the afternoon.

Q. When you told the jury you did have a specific appointment, you were supposed to be the first one up -

A. That was on Saturday.

Q. Do you recall that?

A. My son reminded me.

Q. When did he do that?

A. Saturday, because he went with me.

Q. Last Saturday?

A. It was the Saturday before the girl died.

Q. My question is - when did your son remind you of the 10:00 o'clock appointment with Dr. Lindenborg on Saturday?

A. He got me up to go.

Q. That recollection is very vivid, is it?

A. The reason that happens to be vivid is because a little baby died in the neighborhood the same morning.

Q. That helps you remember when you had an appointment?

A. Yes, because my son aroused me early because the fire trucks were out in front.

Q. Does it also help remind you you took a taxi cab to get there?

A. I did not have any other way to get there. I would have to take a taxi cab.

Q. You don't specifically recall that you did?

A. Yes, I believe my son called the cab, yes, sir.

Q. Is that your recollection?

A. Yes.

Q. So you were not having amnesia during the period of time - the last forty-eight hours before Sylvia died - loss of memory?

A. Amnesia, I don't remember any loss of memory.

Q. You do recall the events both Saturday, Sunday, and even Monday, don't you?

A. Not everything, no, sir.

Q. How do you know some things you don't recall?

A. Because I had happened to be in bed asleep a good deal of the time.

Q. Do you recall being in bed asleep?

A. If I don't recall being awake, I had to be asleep.

Q. Did you ever have an impulse to strike Sylvia Likens?

A. No, if I had an impulse to strike, I had seven children.

Q. You did not have an impulse to do her any harm?

A. No, sir.

Q. So that there was never any desire on your part to gouge her, beat her, burn her, is that correct?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, did you ever do any harm to your own children, Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. No, sir.

Q. No harm at all?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever burn them with a match?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever burn Shirley over the stove?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever burn Stephanie?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever take Sylvia's hand, have her hold out her finger and take a match and hold it underneath her fingers?

A. No, sir.

Q. How would you punish your own children if they would take something that did not belong to them?

MR. ERBECKER: We object to this, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you ever punish them for stealing?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When and how?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. When did you do that?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Whenever they took something that did not belong to them.

Q. Which of your children did you punish?

A. Shirley, Stephanie.

Q. How did you punish her for stealing?

A. They were usually kept in.

Q. Do you ever remember hitting Shirley for stealing?

A. Not any specific time, no.

Q. Did you hit any of your other children for stealing?

A. I imagine over a period of time I have whipped them for stealing.

Q. Did you hit them with anything besides your hand?

A. I don't recall hitting them with anything.

Q. Your testimony is you did not take their hand and put it over flame?

A. No, sir.

Q. You said there was an episode about a gym suit. What was that?

A. Sylvia was supposed to have stolen a gym suit at school.

Q. Did you claim she did?

A. No, I did not claim she did.

Q. Who did?

A. Well, she admitted she did.

Q. Who made her admit she did?

A. No one.

Q. Did you ask her?

A. She had asked for the money for a gym suit. I told her I did not have the money, she would have to get it from her father and then she asked Stephanie to get her a gym suit. Stephanie said she could not. That evening she came home with a gym suit and I asked her where she got it and she said she took it.

Q. Then you did ask her about it?

A. Yes.

Q. It was your own provocation? You wanted to know where she got it?

A. Naturally I did.

Q. What did she say?

A. She had took it.

Q. Did she say where she got it?

A. From the girls' gym?

Q. What did you do about that?

A. Not a thing. I told her to take it back where she got it.

Q. You told Stephanie to take it back and tell the people at school Sylvia was not coming back?

A. I did not.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to lock Sylvia in her room?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never did that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Then I will ask you, Mrs. Baniszewski, if you heard Rev. Roy Julian testify to this court and say he was talking to you in the month of October and he asked you where Sylvia was and you said - "she is locked in her room"? Did Rev. Julian lie?

A. He most certainly did.

MR. NEW: I think that is all.

THE COURT: Any examination by the defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski?

MR. RICE: There is, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You may examine Mrs. Baniszewski.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. GEORGE RICE, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
PAULA MARIE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, would it be correct to say during the space of time about the first of July till the end of October, you were the sole and single adult living in the premises at 3850 East New York Street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you tell us how these premises were acquired for the purpose of residence by you and your family?

A. I rented them.

Q. How did the premises come to your attention?

A. Paula brought them to my attention, I believe.

Q. Did you talk to a person who had occasion to do the actual renting?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you rented the premises for, I think you said $55.00 a month?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was a lease signed at that time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who signed the lease?

A. I did.

Q. In the course of time in this residence, what were the sources of income that you had to deal with?

A. I did ironings when I was able to and then somewhere in the summer Paula went to work - I don't remember the exact date - at Hooks.

Q. Did she give you sums of money she earned at the store for household purposes?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Do you recall what that was?

A. I think she kept $20.00, or $10.00 for her personal use. The rest she gave to me because we had to buy winter coats for the kids.

Q. At intervals you received payments by your former husband, John Baniszewski?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. These represented the sum total you had for the purpose of paying rent, feeding and clothing the children?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is it correct to say you testified previously that Paula had performed various household duties?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. She did it at your demand and direction?

A. Well, she did them because she wanted to do them.

Q. Did you ever assign her tasks to be performed?

A. No, sir, she knew I needed help and she pitched in and tried to help.

Q. Did you ever on occasion do or not do any particular thing?

A. To do or not to do?

Q. Yes.

A. It would all depend on what you are talking about.

Q. Did you ever say to do the dishes or clean the living room?

A. No, because she would know it needed to be done and would volunteer and go ahead and do it.

Q. During this space of time, how old was she?

A. Seventeen years.

Q. Did you have any system, accounts to go for household expenses that enabled you to know how much money you had?

A. Yes, I tried to keep all the grocery receipts.

Q. Did you have a checking account, and any bank deposit, money to draw checks?

A. I never had that much to have a checking account.

Q. Where was the money?

A. We kept it at home.

Q. It was in your charge?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you keep it?

A. In my purse and in my drawers.

Q. When money had to be dispensed, it was you who determined this?

A. Paula and I - usually Paula helped me.

Q. You told her what to do regarding going to the store for shopping?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You spoke previously of making out a list. You wrote out orders?

A. Between Paula and I - we would always confer.

Q. Now, you stated previously, if I am correct, that because of your general weakness and illness, that there were times you had delegated corporal punishment of your children to your daughter Paula?

A. That is right, sir.

Q. When you determined such corporal punishment was to be given, you directed Paula to do whatever you directed?

A. I never always told her to do it. Lots of times Paula did it on her own, you know, because she did not - she said she did not want to upset me - and she would go ahead and punish them.

Q. What did she do by way of punishment?

A. Not anything severe - spanking on the bottom.

Q. Who did she spank?

A. James, Marie and Shirley. Johnny she could not handle at all. Neither could I. Stephanie was her own boss. No one punished her. You could not punish her at all.

Q. In your household, who determined when the children went to bed?

A. I did.

Q. You told them when they should go, especially the younger ones?

A. Yes, sir, when I was awake. Otherwise, Paula knew when they were supposed to go to bed and would try to make sure they were in bed at that time.

Q. Was it possible to lock the doors of this house, fore and aft?

A. Not always. We did not have the back door locked for long time. I had called the real estate man to put a lock on the door.

Q. Did you have keys for these doors?

A. Just for the front door.

Q. Who had the key?

A. Paula and I did.

Q. Each of you had a key?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were the premises locked at night, usually?

A. Yes, we always tried to check all the windows and doors.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to see any time when Paula provided corporal punishment for Sylvia Likens?

A. Did I see her do that?

Q. Yes.

A. I never watched her do it, no.

Q. Did you ever see her have occasion to strike or beat Sylvia Likens?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you recall an incident involving an injury to Paula's arm?

A. Do I recall that? Yes, I do.

Q. Do you recall when this injury took place?

A. It was the latter part of July or the first of August, I believe.

Q. Can you tell us how soon after the injury occurred she had medical attention?

A. Right away.

Q. Where was this medical attention provided?

A. Community Hospital. She was X-rayed and a cast put on by the doctor and returned home.

Q. How long did the cast remain on her arm?

A. Three of four weeks, I believe.

Q. The cast was on her arm until well into the month of August?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was your daughter right handed of left handed?

A. She is right handed.

Q. The injury was to which wrist?

A. The right hand.

Q. How did she have occasion to eat?

A. She used her left hand.

Q. She had to manage with her left hand?

A. Yes.

Q. With regard to meals, who determined be served at particular meals?

A. Paula and I both.

Q. Who prepared them?

A. Paula and I both.

MR. RICE: We have no more, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Defendant John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard may cross.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. FORREST BOWMAN, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANTS,
COY HUBBARD AND JOHN STEPHAN BANISZEWSKI

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, what is the date of John's birth?

A. The 23rd of February, I believe.

Q. The 23rd of February?

A. Yes.

Q. What year?

A. 1955, I think. He is thirteen.

Q. Thirteen?

A. Yes.

Q. Was he thirteen this past February?

A. Yes, he was, sir.

Q. When did you move to the address 3850 East New York Street?

A. In June.

Q. In June?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you live before that?

A. 307 North Bradley.

Q. How long had you lived there?

A. About two months or so, sir.

Q. Did you move in February 1965?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not?

A. No, sir.

Q. Anytime about that time in the winter?

A. It was March.

Q. March?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you move from and to in March?

A. We moved from 34th Street over on Kitley.

Q. From 34th Street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where is that now?

A. Dearborn and 34th.

Q. To where?

A. Kitley - out at Windsor Village.

Q. Did John live with you?

A. I sent John home with his father at that time.

Q. In March 1965?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you not want him at home?

A. I could not control Johnny at all. He would not mind me at all.

Q. Now, where did you live April, 1964?

A. I believe on LaSalle Street.

Q. Was John living with you then?

A. I don't remember, Mr. Bowman.

Q. You don't remember?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did John finish school the year 1964?

A. As far as I know, he did.

Q. He did?

A. No, he did not. I think they were all out with the measles, I am not sure.

Q. When did he get the measles?

A. That was shortly before he went to spend the summer with their father.

Q. When did he go to spend the summer with their father?

A. In '64.

Q. What part of '64?

A. Just before school let out or had just let out.

Q. Did you take him out of school April 1964 and send him to live with his father?

A. Did I?

Q. Yes.

A. I don't know because I was having a pretty rough time and I was expecting a baby, I believe at the time.

Q. Where did John start to school the fall of 1964?

A. In Beech Grove.

Q. He was living with his father then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did he continue to live with his father?

A. I believe he came home with me in October.

Q. He came home with you in October to where?

A. 34th and Dearborn.

Q. Did he start going to school?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. He went to his father's and you got him and brought him back to live with you?

A. No, he came over to my home and never returned to his fathers.

Q. He came over on his own?

A. He came to visit and did not go back, yes, sir.

Q. In October 1964?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. March 1965 you say you sent him to his father because you could not control him?

A. Well, I will put it this way to you, Mr. Bowman, I asked his father to talk to John, correct him, and he did not want to do it that way, he wanted to take Johnny out there and either keep him as permanent custody to try to straighten him out or not straighten him out at all.

Q. Did he take him?

A. He took him but I did not let him have custody of Johnny, no.

Q. He took him over to live with him?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Did he come and pick him up in the car, did he?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. March 1965?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Johnny change schools again?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. When did he come back to live with you in 1965?

A. In September.

MR. BOWMAN: No further questions.

THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. JAMES NEDEFF, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
RICHARD HOBBS

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, when did you first become acquainted with Ricky Hobbs?

A. I never have been really well acquainted with Ricky.

Q. Can you recall 1965 when you first saw him?

A. No, I don't remember when I first saw Ricky Hobbs.

Q. You lived there at 309 North Bradley?

A. 307, sir.

Q. 307 North Bradley, the next street west of Denny Street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you live in that house at 307 North Bradley?

A. From March till June.

Q. March till June?

A. Yes, it possibly might have been the first of April till June.

Q. He - was he ever in that house there?

A. Not to my knowledge, no.

Q. You don't know if your children were acquainted with him?

A. No, I don't.

Q. In relation to New York Street, that house at 307 North Bradley, was it on the east side of Bradley or on the west side?

A. Repeat that, Mr. Nedeff, please.

Q. Let me withdraw that and ask you - was it the third house from New York Street?

A. Is what?

Q. The house you lived in on Bradley Street, was it the third house from New York Street?

A. No, sir.

Q. What house, what number was it from - how many houses separated it from New York Street.

A. One.

Q. Why did you move out of that house?

A. Because it was about ready to fall in.

Q. In fact it was condemned?

A. That is right, sir.

Q. Now, do you recall when in 1965 you called the police about a prowler in your home or around the home?

A. Do I remember what, sir?

Q. What month that was in 1965?

A. You mean October 1965, is that what you are talking about?

Q. Was it October you called the police about a prowler?

A. My son Johnny snuck out the back door and called the police, yes.

Q. He made the call from where, if you know?

A. The phone booth in the filling station.

Q. Do you recall what date that was?

A. Not the exact date.

Q. The first week, second week, third week of October, 1965?

A. I don't remember the exact date, Mr. Nedeff.

Q. Did you see the prowler inside your house or outside?

A. When I was brought to attention, he was half way through the window, sir.

Q. What window was that?

A. It is what was supposed to have been the dining room but it was my bedroom.

Q. Did you know that person?

A. I did not know who it was when he was coming through the window. When the police came I got outdoors and I knew who it was, yes, sir.

Q. Now, Saturday before Sylvia Likens died in your home, was Ricky Hobbs there on that Saturday?

A. I beg your pardon. Say that again, Mr. Nedeff.

Q. Was Mr. Hobbs, Ricky Hobbs in your home on New York Street on Saturday before Sylvia died?

A. Saturday evening?

Q. Yes.

A. Saturday evening.

Q. What time, do you recall?

A. I don't remember what time it was, Mr. Nedeff.

Q. The next day - was the 24th - was he there in your home?

A. I don't know, not to my knowledge he was not.

Q. The next day was Monday the 25th. Was he there?

A. I don't remember Ricky being there, no.

Q. Alright on the 26th of October, I think you testified he was there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall when he got there that day?

A. No, I don't sir.

Q. I think you testified you had gone to the doctor and came back around 3:30?

A. I don't recall exactly the time I got back there, Mr. Nedeff.

Q. Was he at the house when you got back?

A. Not to my knowledge he was not.

Q. You were home, within the house when he did come over on the 26th, which was Tuesday, October 26th?

A. Repeat that.

Q. You were already home when Ricky Hobbs came there that Tuesday, October 26th?

A. I don't know what time Ricky came there.

Q. You were already there?

A. Yes, to my knowledge, I guess I was.

Q. Do you know where he went to school?

A. I believe Howe High School.

Q. Did you know his parents, his mother and father?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you know where he lived?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did he live at that time, did you know where he lived?

A. You mean - when do you mean, Mr. Nedeff?

Q. October last year, did you know where Ricky Hobbs lived?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you know the exact address?

A. I did not know the address, no, but I knew where the home was.

Q. Where is it with relation to where you lived?

A. I believe it is about four doors over. I don't know - it is a double or something like that.

Q. Could you see his house from your kitchen stoop in back?

A. No, I could not see the house itself.

Q. You can see his garage?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And he spent time there in the garage?

A. I don't know.

THE COURT: Any other questions, Mr. Nedeff?

MR. NEDEFF: No other questions.

THE COURT: Re-direct, sir?

MR. ERBECKER: Yes, sir.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, on cross examination by Mr. New, Grand Jury testimony was mentioned there. Whose idea was it to go in front of the Grand Jury?

A. John R. Hammond's. He talked to us about it.

Q. Talked to who?

A. Paula and I.

Q. Now, I think you testified Sgt. Kaiser told you in substance that the children done it. Did he tell you that?

A. He mentioned to me a lot of things the children were supposed to have done, yes, sir.

Q. In other words, he played each of you against the other, did he?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you getting tired?

A. My back is hurting pretty bad.

Q. Did you ever sign any kind of statement?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is it a fact, that Stephanie committed most of the abuse on Sylvia and that is why she made a deal with the Prosecutor's Office?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

MR. ERBECKER: No further questions.

THE COURT: Any omitted questions or recross?

MR. NEW: An omitted question, Your Honor. I don't want to extend the witness if she is in pain. I will proceed if the court says so.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, by agreement of counsel and with the consent of the State and defendant made in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. We will return at 9:00 o'clock tomorrow morning. During the adjournment, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion on the case until it is finally submitted to you. Do not read any newspaper articles or magazine articles of any kind that may appear about this case and don't watch anything or listen to anything that may be broadcast about the case. Court will remain in session. Jury is excused till tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock.

JURY EXCUSED.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

COURT ADJOURNED.

MAY 11, 1966, AND THE TRIAL OF THIS CAUSE WAS RESUMED.

THE COURT: Are there any witnesses in the courtroom? May we proceed without Miss Wessner, Mr. New?

MR. NEW: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Is everybody ready for the jury?

MR. ERBECKER: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Take the stand, please.

GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI ON THE STAND.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: An omitted question on cross examination, Mr. New.

CROSS EXAMINATION (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. LEROY NEW,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, did you hear your daughter Shirley say you and Paula had tied Sylvia's wrists and feet and tossed her in a hot tub of water?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you do that?

A. No, sir.

Q. She said she saw you do it. Was she mistaken?

A. She sure was.

Q. Did you also hear Jenny Likens say you had done the same thing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She also said she saw you do it. Was she mistaken?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Jenny also said she saw you putting a gag into her mouth so she would not scream. Is that true?

A. Would you repeat?

Q. Jenny said she saw you put a gag into her mouth when you dumped her in the hot water, so she would not scream. Is that true?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not do that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you recall Mr. Erbecker asked your daughter Shirley if she had talked to Stephanie or talked to her at all?

A. Not right offhand.

Q. Do you recall Shirley said she had not seen Jenny since Sylvia had died?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. That she had not seen her?

Q. They had not seen each other?

A. Yes, I heard that.

Q. Is it your testimony, both Jenny and Shirley lied, when they said you dumped Sylvia in a hot tub of water?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Do you recall both Shirley and Jenny said they saw you take a hot needle and put the letter I on Sylvia's stomach and you said you were getting sick and could not go on?

A. Yes, I heard that.

Q. Is it your testimony, they are both lying?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Is it your testimony, their statements in that regard are not true?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Is it your testimony, you did not mutilate the letter I on the girl's stomach?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you smoke cigarettes during the time Sylvia lived at your house, Mrs. Baniszewski?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Off and on, yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever give Sylvia a bath while she lived there?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, sir, I did not give her a bath personally, no.

Q. Did you hear Officer Kaiser say you had given Sylvia a bath Sunday before she died?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you do that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever give Sylvia a bath during the time she lived with you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you receive a black eye when you struck at Sylvia and missed and hit yourself in the eye?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained to the form of the question.

Q. Did you ever receive a black eye you administered to yourself?

A. That I administered to myself, no, sir.

Q. Did you have a black eye on the day Sylvia died?

A. No, I did not have a black eye on the day she died, no.

Q. Do you recall Dr. Kebel stated you did have a black eye?

A. I heard him.

Q. Is that not true?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained to the form of the question.

Q. Did you have a black eye when Dr. Kebel talked to you at the scene?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, you stated yesterday, Mrs. Baniszewski, that Paula and Stephanie were the ones who were in the basement at 1:00 o'clock in the morning of the 26th of October, is that correct?

MR. ERBECKER: Your Honor, this goes beyond the scope of any direct examination.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Repeat that.

Q. Did you say they were the ones who were in the basement at 1:00 o'clock in the morning?

A. So I was informed, yes, sir.

Q. Did you state they were stoking the furnace?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you tell the jury why they were stoking the furnace at 1:00 o'clock in the morning?

A. Well, I imagine the house was cool.

Q. Did you send them down there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where did you sleep on the night of the 25th and the morning of the 26th of October?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It has been gone into.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. In my bedroom.

Q. Where was that located in your house?

A. What was purportedly to be the dining room.

Q. On the ground floor?

A. Yes.

Q. Did anyone sleep with you?

A. Stephanie and Dennis Lee.

Q. When Stephanie got up to stoke the furnace at 1:00 o'clock in the morning, did you hear her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear any movements during the night?

A. Only when I was awoke.

Q. What time?

A. I am not sure of the time.

Q. What did you hear when you woke up?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled. These are omitted questions from cross examination. Overruled.

A. Paula was crying.

Q. Where was Paula?

A. In the living room.

Q. Was anyone else there?

A. I don't remember at the moment, no, sir.

Q. Where was Stephanie?

A. I am not sure.

Q. Was she still stoking the furnace?

A. So I have been told, yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Stephanie again that night?

A. Yes, she - when she was putting ice on Paula's foot.

Q. Where was that?

A. In the living room.

Q. What time?

A. I told you I did not know the definite time.

Q. Was it daylight yet?

A. No, sir.

Q. Still dark?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Stephanie come back to bed?

A. I suppose eventually she did, yes, sir.

Q. Did you go back to bed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you go down in the basement?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where did Sylvia sleep that night?

A. Upstairs in the bedroom.

Q. How do you know that?

MR. ERBECKER: Your Honor, it is repetitious.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Well, that is where I was told she slept.

Q. Who told you that?

A. My children.

Q. Which children?

A. Paula, Stephanie, Shirley Marie.

Q. Was there any particular reason they told you that is where she slept that you know of?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, not any particular reason.

Q. The fact was Sylvia was sleeping in the basement, wasn't she?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear Jenny say she slept in the basement the night of the 25th?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was not true?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, you told Mr. Erbecker the school nurse came by and I believe you said the latter part of September or early part of October, is that correct?

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Did you say that?

A. I said she was there, yes, sir.

Q. Now, the school nurse said it was the 15th of October at approximately 2:30 P.M. Would you quarrel with that or would you agree to that?

A. I am not going to quarrel with it, no.

Q. You would not say it was not the 15th?

A. I don't believe it was the 15th, no.

Q. Alright, was the school nurse who came by the same lady, Barbara Sanders, who testified before this jury under oath?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was Sylvia when she came to your house?

A. As far as I know the girl was supposed to be in school.

Q. But she was not at home, is that correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Now, did you hear Mrs. Sanders testify to this jury that you had stated that Sylvia had been kicked out of home a couple of weeks before?

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Did you hear her testify to that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you say that to the nurse?

A. No, I did not.

Q. At the time the school nurse came by your home, was Sylvia suffering from any wounds or injuries on her body?

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Did she have this running sore on her head you testified about yesterday?

A. I did not say she had a running sore on her head.

Q. Did you say she had any sores on her head yesterday?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you ever see any sores on her body of any kind?

A. On her foot.

Q. Anyplace else?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, Dr. Ellis testified here before this jury, Mrs. Baniszewski, and said that many of these wounds, gouges, injuries to Sylvia Likens were as old as two weeks, in his opinion. Did Sylvia ever complain to you about any wounds she was suffering from?

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, sir.

Q. Is it your testimony, you never saw any other wounds except the one on her foot?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did Sylvia ever complain to you about being in pain any way?

A. Only -

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Only a headache once in a while.

Q. I think you testified you gave her aspirin for that?

A. I think I testified I gave her two aspirins.

Q. Did that accommodate that pain?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. It did.

Q. Did you tell Rev. Julian, Paula was not pregnant while he was there?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you tell Rev. Julian she was not pregnant?

A. No, sir, I did not.

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you hear Rev. Julian's testimony where he said he came by your house the middle of October and you said if anyone is pregnant it is Sylvia?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Please repeat that.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. I don't quite recall him saying that, no.

Q. What do you recall he said about that?

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. There has been a lot said here.

MR. NEW: Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection because it is not a proper omitted question on cross examination.

THE COURT: Objection sustained on that ground.

Q. Did Sylvia comb her hair regularly, Mrs. Baniszewski?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, sir.

Q. Why not?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you complain to Sylvia because she did not comb her hair regularly?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I never complained to her about it.

Q. Did you agree she would not have to comb her hair?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you ever tell Sylvia she should comb her hair before she went to school?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. When did Sylvia quit school?

A. I don't know the exact date Sylvia quit school.

Q. What month?

A. It was in October.

Q. What part of October?

A. I am not sure.

Q. Did you ever receive any notice from the school because she did not come to school?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes, several.

Q. How did you receive that notice?

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Got it in the mail.

Q. What did you do about it, if anything?

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. What did - why did she quit school?

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Now, Mr. Erbecker asked you who you talked with before went to the Grand Jury and you said Mr. Hammond. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you request to go before the Grand Jury yourself, personally?

A. He talked to us about it.

MR. NEW: Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. I did not request it personally, no.

Q. Did you go before the Grand Jury voluntarily?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It calls for a conclusion.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you sign a waiver of your constitutional rights before you went before the Grand Jury?

A. You mean the piece of paper you gave us, Mr. Prosecutor, is that what you are referring to?

Q. Did you sign a waiver?

A. I don't know what a waiver is, sir.

Q. I will hand you, Mrs. Baniszewski, what is marked for the purpose of identification as State's Exhibit No. 29 and ask you if it is not a fact on the 8th day of December, 1965 you signed that waiver, under oath, in my presence?

MR. ERBECKER: May I ask a preliminary question?

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Yes, or no.

A. That is my signature, yes, sir.

Q. That is your signature?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you sign it December 8, 1965, before you testified before the Marion County Grand Jury?

A. If that is the date you say.

Q. What does it say?

A. The 8th.

MR. NEW: At this time we offer in evidence State's Exhibit No. 29.

MR. ERBECKER: A preliminary question.

THE COURT: Alright.

PRELIMINARY QUESTIONS,
BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. When you signed this, did you knowingly, willingly and understandingly waive your constitutional right to testify against yourself?

MR. NEW: We object. The instrument speaks for itself.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you know what you were signing?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you know, when you signed this document, State's Exhibit No. 29 which purports to be a waiver, did you know when you signed it that the testimony before the Grand Jury could conceivably send you to the electric chair?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained to form of the question.

Q. Did you know by signing the waiver and appearing, you would be subject to cross examination?

A. I did not know anything at that time about any waivers or anything.

Q. At that time who was your attorney?

A. John R. Hammond.

Q. Did he authorize you to sign this?

A. I don't remember exactly everything he told us to do.

Q. Did you talk to Mr. Hammond about this waiver?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was he there when you signed the waiver?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was that the same time he represented Stephanie Baniszewski?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And another defendant in this case, your son?

MR. NEW: We object. That is not preliminary.

THE COURT: Overruled. Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. He represented all three, did he?

A. Yes, and one more.

Q. Who was that?

A. Paula Marie.

Q. And representing all of you defendants, he permitted you to sign this waiver?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you talk to him about the waiver immediately prior to signing it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you talk to any attorney about signing this waiver?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did Mr. New talk to you about this waiver?

A. He said something to us but I don't remember what it was.

Q. What did he say?

A. I don't know. I was pretty confused and upset.

Q. Did you know by signing this document here you waived any rights you might have with reference to answering any questions before the Grand Jury?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Had you been advised of your rights, would you have signed this thing?

A. No, I would not.

MR. ERBECKER: The defendant objects to the introduction of State's Exhibit No. 29 for the reason she did not knowingly, willingly, understandingly sign it, and for the further reason at that time she was represented by John Hammond who represented three other defendants in this trial, which would make for a conflict of interest.

THE COURT: Overruled. Any objections?

MR. RICE: No objections.

MR. BOWMAN: No objection.

THE COURT: Show Exhibit No. 29 in evidence.

MR. NEW: The State asks permission to read it to the jury.

THE COURT: And read to the jury. Do you want to show it to the jury?

MR. NEW: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Let the record show Exhibit No. 29 shown to the jury.

WHEREUPON STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 29 (being a grand jury waiver) WAS ADMITTED IN EVIDENCE,
READ AND SHOWN TO THE JURY, AND MADE A PART OF THIS RECORD AS FOLLOWS, TO-WIT:

STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 29 ATTACHED.

WAIVER

I, GERTRUDE WRIGHT hereby specifically waive any immunity which I may have in Answering questions propounded to me by the Marion County Grand Jury or the Prosecuting Attorney, or his deputies, in the hearing to be held before said Grand Jury this 8th day of DECEMBER 19 65, and which hearing may be continued from time to time, involving certain matters now pending before the Marion County Grand Jury.

I understand my constitutional rights and that I can refuse to answer any questions which might tend to incriminate me, and I further specifically waive any such rights that I may have, and agree to answer questions knowing that my answers to such questions may be used against me.

Gertrude Baniszewski

STATE OF INDIANA
COUNTY OF MARION

Subscribed and sworn to before me this 8th day of December 1965.

LeRoy New
Deputy Prosecuting Attorney
Nineteenth Judicial Circuit

END STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 29.

THE COURT: Next question, please.

CROSS EXAMINATION RESUMED (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. LEROY NEW,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, did any of the neighbor children ever come in and strike or beat on Sylvia that you know of?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. They had fights with her if that is what you are talking about.

Q. Who are you talking about?

A. Anna Siscoe.

Q. Did you see that?

A. Part of it.

Q. What did you see?

A. I saw her kicking.

Q. Kicking who?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Where?

A. I never noticed any specific place. She had her down on the floor so I don't know.

Q. What did you do?

A. Tried to break it up the best I could because I was not able to wrestle around with the girl, Anna Siscoe's size.

Q. When did this happen?

A. I am not sure. In September sometime.

Q. Was that in your home?

A. By the kitchen door, yes, sir.

Q. How long did that last?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. Was Sylvia hurt with that episode?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did any other children you know or saw beat or kick at Sylvia?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. This was gone into before.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Randy Lepper.

Q. Did you see him do that?

A. Not always, no, sir.

Q. When did he do that, that you saw?

A. Several times.

Q. What month?

A. Just about all the time he knew Sylvia.

Q. All the time he knew Sylvia he beat on her?

A. You was asking for specific times weren't you, and I can't give you specific times.

Q. What did you see Randy Lepper do?

A. Kick and hit her.

Q. Where would he kick her?

A. In the legs.

Q. Anywhere else?

A. He hit her in the head once with a coke bottle.

Q. Where was Sylvia when she got hit with the coke bottle?

A. I believe it was in our living room.

Q. Were you there?

A. I had just started walking into the room, yes, sir, when he did it.

Q. Do you remember when it happened?

A. Not any exact date, no, sir.

Q. What did you do?

A. Chased Randy home.

Q. Did he come back?

A. Later on that afternoon, I believe.

Q. Did you allow him to come back?

A. No, sir.

Q. How did he happen to come back if you did not allow him to come back?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you ever tell him again not to come back?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, do you know when Sylvia bit her lip in shreds?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained to the form of the question.

Q. Do you know if she did?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained to the form of the question.

Q. Do you know why Sylvia bit her lip in shreds?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to the form of the question.

Q. Did you ever see her lip when it was bit in shreds?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, sir.

Q. You never saw it?

A. No, sir.

Q. I assume, Mrs. Baniszewski, Sylvia never complained to you about her lip being bitten in to?

A. No, sir.

Q. You said, I believe, Mrs. Baniszewski, that you never remembered Sylvia minding you that you could remember. Is that correct?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you tell Mr. or Mrs. Likens when they came to your home the last time in October that Sylvia was not minding you at all?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I gave Mr. Likens to understand when it first started that I would not correct them any way. It was not my place to.

Q. If she did not mind you, if that is the truth, Mrs. Baniszewski, why did you keep her there after the Likens left?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I did not say she did not mind me. I said she would not pay any attention to me.

Q. Did she mind you?

A. She ignored me.

Q. Did she do what you asked her to?

A. No, sir.

Q. Ever?

A. Maybe once in a big while.

Q. I will renew my question. If that is the truth, then why did you keep her on after the Likens came back the last time in October?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. They did not have any other place to go.

Q. That is your answer?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, did you ever try to get in touch with anyone regarding Sylvia during the time she was there because of her behavior?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Objection sustained for a reason other than that assigned.

Q. Did you ever make a phone call to anyone trying to notify them of Sylvia's condition?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. What do you mean by her condition, sir?

Q. Any condition?

MR. ERBECKER: We object, unless he sets a definite time and place.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who did you call?

A. I did not have anywhere to call. I tried to ask the children who to call. They kept telling me they did not know where this grandparent was or that grandparent.

Q. You said you make a phone call?

A. I called where he gave me a phone to call one time and there was no answer.

Q. When did you do that?

A. I don't remember the specific time.

Q. Do you remember what month?

A. No, sir.

Q. What were you calling about?

A. Trying to find out why the parents had not come back to find out about their children.

Q. Did they ever come back after that?

A. Eventually.

Q. So you found out after they came back where they had been?

A. No, they never told me. They always talked directly to the girls.

Q. Did you make an effort to notify them of the condition between yourself and these girls?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, did you hear Rev. Julian say yesterday you told him you really laid it on Sylvia?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Did you hear him say that?

A. No, not exactly, I don't remember.

Q. Did you tell him that?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did Rev. Julian ask you why Sylvia had quit coming to Sunday School or Church?

A. No, sir.

Q. He did not even ask you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did he mention Sylvia?

A. I don't recall that he did.

Q. Did you mention Sylvia?

A. Maybe in the conversation somewhere.

Q. What did you say, what was the subject?

A. I don't imagine it was anything real bad because I called him there about my own children, not someone else's.

Q. If you talked about Sylvia, what did you talk to Rev. Julian about?

A. I believe he asked about one of my daughters. He did not talk to me about Sylvia.

Q. Did you talk to him about Sylvia?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. There was no mention at all between you and Rev. Julian about Sylvia?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, did Sylvia slip down during the night and take food from the ice box?

A. Did she? She said she did. I don't know that she did.

Q. Did you tell Rev. Julian she did?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you, as Rev. Julian was leaving, turn to Jenny and say, "Here is her sister, ask her"?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was Jenny there when Rev. Julian was there?

A. I believe all the children were at home - in at one time or other.

Q. Your answer is yes?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you not turn and make the statement, as Rev. Julian said?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did Sylvia ever use profane or vulgar language around the house?

A. That all depends on what you call vulgar.

Q. What do you can it?

A. She told me several incidents. That is all.

Q. Did she use profane language?

A. Not in my presence.

Q. She never did?

A. On one or two occasions. After I said something about it, I don't think she did after that.

Q. Did you use profane language in her presence?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did hear Shirley say you did?

A. Yes.

Q. That was not true?

A. No.

Q. Did Sylvia ever try to go out and pick up boys on the street?

A. So I have been told.

Q. Did she?

A. I never saw her with my own eyes, no, sir.

Q. Did you tell the Marion County Grand Jury she did?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. I will ask you if on December 8, 1965, Mrs. Baniszewski, this question was not asked you before the Marion County Grand Jury and you gave this answer under oath? Q. "Did you tell them that"? A. "I think they did. I want to say right now, those girls were not unhappy with me except the one thing that Sylvia was unhappy about was I wouldn't let her date like she wanted to or I objected to her picking boys up off the street like she wanted to. She was unhappy with me that way but as far as any other way, I don't know".

A. I might have said that to you, yes, sir.

Q. Is that the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did object to Sylvia about wanting to pick up boys on the street?

A. I objected to my own daughters, sir, even about something like that.

MR. NEW: Would you read the question?

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Yes, I objected to Sylvia doing it too.

Q. What did she say?

A. Nothing.

Q. When did you say that?

A. I don't remember the specific time.

Q. What did she say when you told her she should not pick up boys on the street?

A. She did not say anything.

Q. Where was this when you told her that?

A. I don't remember that.

Q. Do you remember who was there and might have heard you say that?

A. Paula and Stephanie and possibly some of my other children.

Q. Now, during the time Sylvia stayed at your house, Mrs. Baniszewski, can you think of a single thing she might have done that was not right, that was wrong in the house?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did she ever do anything to make you want to scald her, burn her?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she do anything to make you want to cut her with knife?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever have an impulse to gouge, burn or scald her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever rip her clothes off, tear her blouse?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever accuse Sylvia of stealing a tennis shoe?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever accuse her of stealing gym clothes?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever recall whether or not Sylvia and her sister Jenny collected bottles in the park?

A. I never saw it with my own eyes, no, sir.

Q. Did you ever have conversation about these girls about collecting bottles at the park?

A. Not collecting, no, sir.

Q. About anything with reference to their going around earning money?

A. Do I remember a conversation about it, sir?

Q. Yes.

A. This was mostly in regard to them and my children.

Q. What was it?

A. They had went in the grocery store and picked up bottles to cash in.

Q. Picked up empty bottles at the grocery store?

A. Inside the grocery store, sir.

Q. Who did that?

A. Shirley and Sylvia and Jenny.

Q. Anyone else?

A. That is all that I recall.

Q. How often did that happen?

A. On several occasions.

Q. Each time did you correct them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How did you correct them?

A. Made them go upstairs in their room and stay up there.

Q. How long?

A. Not over an hour or two.

Q. Were you there when they took the bottles?

A. No, I was not.

Q. How do you know they did?

A. Shirley Ann told me.

Q. Shirley Ann said she had stole bottles?

A. Shirley Ann told on them first and then told on herself?

Q. You say that was several times they had done this?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, did you ever tell your children or Jenny Likens to say Sylvia was not even at your house, she was at Juvenile Center?

MR. ERBECKER: We object unless the time and place are established.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever scold or criticize Jenny for saying her sister was at home?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, sir.

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, if it is the truth that Sylvia did not mind you, was not obedient to you, then why did you not send her to Juvenile?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you hear Shirley say Sylvia was helpful to everybody around the house?

A. I heard Shirley Ann.

Q. Was that the truth?

A. No, sir.

Q. In what way was Sylvia not helpful to anyone around the house.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, is it not a fact Sunday, October 24th when you made Sylvia write these two notes in evidence, you intended to kill her?

A. I did not make anyone write any notes of any kind.

Q. Did you intend to kill her Sunday, October 24th?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I did not kill anyone?

Q. Did you intend to kill Sylvia?

A. I just told you I never killed anyone.

Q. During the last forty-eight hours Sylvia lived, was anyone else other than the persons you have testified about in the house?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Except for the times you stated you went to Dr. Lindenborg's office, were you there all the time, in the house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, you stated to Mr. Erbecker you spent considerable time in bed during the month of October because of asthmatic attacks and various ailments, is that correct?

A. I believe I stated more than just October.

Q. Was that the truth?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. I will ask you if it is not a fact, Mrs. Baniszewski, on December 8, 1965 before the Marion County Grand Jury when you were under oath, this question was asked and if you did not give this answer? "Q. When did you have this breakdown? A. Well, I have been trying to fight it. I never got to go to bed. You see, I have got children and am short of money". Q. Well, my question was, were you at home during all this time, you never left the house"? A. "No, except to go to the grocery".

A. I don't remember naming any specific time. You are not giving the date I quoted this, sir.

Q. You said you never got to go to bed before the Grand Jury and you told Mr. Erbecker you did. What is the truth?

A. I beg your pardon? I was in bed, sir.

Q. So you lied to the Grand Jury.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to the form of the question.

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, can you tell this jury what caused the skin to peel off the face of Sylvia Likens, and her neck and chest and back? Can you tell the jury what caused the skin to come off?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It is repetitious.

Q. Did Sylvia ever complain to you about her skin coming off?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, sir.

Q. Dr. Ellis testified here and said this girl suffered extensive pain, in his opinion.

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is repetitious, someone else's testimony.

Q. Are you telling the jury you never once heard Sylvia scream or make any outcry at all?

THE COURT: Sustained to the form.

Q. Did you ever hear Sylvia scream or make any outcry?

A. No, sir, I don't believe I did.

Q. Did Sylvia ever tell you who mutilated, scalded, gouged craters in her body?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, sir.

Q. Your testimony before the jury now, under oath, is you do not know who did?

A. That is right, sir.

MR. NEW: That is all.

THE COURT: Any re-direct on the recross? Any omitted questions or so on, Mr. Erbecker?

MR. ERBECKER: I would like to ask a few.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Now, Mrs. Baniszewski, getting back to State's Exhibit No. 29, when were you first told about a waiver?

A. When we went to the Grand Jury.

Q. When, with reference to your going in front of the Grand Jury were you handed the waiver, in terms of minutes?

A. Just a few minutes before I went in the room.

Q. A few minutes before you went in front of the Grand Jury they gave you a waiver?

A. Yes.

Q. Up to that time had you talked to Mr. Hammond about a waiver?

A. Not about a waiver that I remember, no, sir.

Q. Did you know what you were signing?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you go to high school, Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. One year.

Q. Did you go to law school?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you knowingly sign the waiver, knowing the legal import of it?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. Did you willingly sign the waiver, knowing your testimony could be used against you in this trial?

A. Repeat that.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. I did not do it willingly, no, sir.

Q. Did you understandingly sign this waiver, knowing that you specifically waived any rights you might have?

MR. NEW: The State objects. The instrument speaks for itself.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you know what the legal import of you signing State's Exhibit No. 29, what it could do to you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Would you have signed it if you did?

MR. NEW: We object. She did sign it.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Now, what did Mr, Hammond say to you about this waiver, if he did say something about it.

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Have you talked to Stephanie since the State asked for a separate trial for her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you given any of the Grand Jury minutes Mr. New read from copies of them?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you nervous and upset at the time you went in front of the Grand Jury?

A. Pretty much so, yes, sir.

Q. Did you understand all the questions asked you in front of the Grand Jury?

A. No, sir, if I recall, I asked.

Q. How long were you in front of the Grand Jury?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. Five minutes or an hour?

A. No, it was longer than that.

Q. Would you say several hours?

A. Maybe one or two, I don't remember.

Q. Who interrogated you in front of the Grand Jury?

A. Mr. New.

Q. The same man who was questioning you in this trial, right?

A. That is right, sir.

Q. And what, if anything, did Mr. New tell you before you signed this waiver?

MR. NEW: We object. It speaks for itself.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you have a conversation with Mr. New when he handed you this waiver?

A. He came out and my daughter Paula was there with us and I don't remember whether he read it or not. I was too confused and upset to know much of anything at that time.

Q. Your daughter Paula was with you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Anyone else?

A. Just one matron.

Q. How long before that had you talked to Mr. Hammond, your attorney?

A. I don't remember exactly. It was several days before or so.

Q. Now, when Mr. New handed you State's Exhibit No. 29, which purports to be a waiver, did he read it to you?

A. He might have, sir.

Q. Did you read it?

A. No, sir.

Q. And I notice it is subscribed and sworn to before Mr. New. Do you remember that?

A. I just remember signing a paper.

Q. Now, it ways in the waiver you understand your constitutional rights on December 8, 1965. Do you know what your constitutional rights were?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know what they are now?

A. Not fully, no, sir.

Q. And how many conferences have you had with Mr. Hammond before December 8, 1965?

A. About three.

Q. About three, and how many conferences have I had with you since I have been on this case?

A. Quite a number.

Q. Would you say two dozen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And even now you don't understand your constitutional rights?

A. No, sir.

Q. And Mr. Hammond talked to you two or three times?

A. That is right, sir.

Q. You don't know what Mr. New told you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you know on December 8, 1965 what this phrase means - "and that I can refuse to answer any questions which might tend to incriminate me" - do you understand what that meant then?

A. No, sir.

Q. It goes on to say "I specifically waive any such rights that I may have". Did you know what that meant?

A. No, sir.

Q. It further says "and agree to answer any questions knowing that my answers to such questions may be used against me" - did you know that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was each of these lines and contents of this waiver complete and thoroughly explained by Mr. New to you?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. How much time transpired from the time you saw Mr. New that morning till you signed this waiver?

A. I beg your pardon?

MR. ERBECKER: Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. It was only a few minutes.

Q. What was the reason for you being down at the Grand Jury room there that morning?

A. I don't know. I thought we were going down there to tell what we knew, that was all.

Q. What?

A. Tell what we knew about it, that was all. I did not know.

Q. Did you think it was an obligation for you to go down there?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Who told you to go down there?

A. I believe we were asked if we wanted to go and it was never explained to us.

Q. It was never explained?

A. No.

Q. Who asked you if you wanted to go?

A. John R. Hammond.

Q. At that time you were in jail, without bond, were you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did John Hammond, with reference to December 8, 1965, ask you if you wanted to go to that Grand Jury?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you consult with Mr. Hammond after you came out of the Grand Jury?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never did anytime?

A. Not that I recall, no, sir.

Q. Now, from October 27 - that was when you first retained Mr. Hammond on this case?

A. On October 27th?

Q. Yes.

A. I asked for him to be called. I did - no one ever asked me what my attorney's name was and I never saw an attorney at all until a day or so before we were charged with murder.

Q. Now, then, when was the time you first saw Mr. Hammond?

A. The day we were charged with murder.

Q. What date was that?

A. I don't remember the exact date.

Q. At that time was a waiver discussed with you by Mr. Hammond?

A. I remember him telling me and the girls in the lockup.

Q. You and the girls?

A. Yes, sir, in the lockup behind the courtroom where we were charged. He was going to waive it to the Grand Jury. He never told me what it was. I asked him to explain it, but he never did.

Q. Now, then he represented four defendants in this murder trial, including Stephanie, but you are the only one he had go in front of the Grand Jury, is that right?

A. No, sir, Stephanie and Paula went also.

Q. They went before the Grand Jury?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The same time you did?

A. Paula did.

Q. Now, after the day you were formally charged with murder, when was the next time you talked to Mr. Hammond?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. After the second time you talked to Mr. Hammond, when was the next time?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Then, three times prior to December 8, 1965 were the only times you ever talked to Mr. Hammond, is that right?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you have any other legal advice subsequent to December 8, 1965?

A. Repeat that.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. No, sir.

Q. What day were you notified by the woman deputy sheriff you were going down to the Grand Jury?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. On December 8, 1965 when you signed this waiver, what time of day or night was it?

A. It was in the afternoon.

Q. It was in the afternoon. Now, with reference to in days or weeks or hours, when was the last time you talked to Mr. Hammond concerning signing of a waiver, if you did?

A. When was the last time I talked to him?

Q. About this waiver, if you ever did?

A. I don't remember talking about the waiver.

Q. I will hand you State's Exhibit No. 29, which purports to be a waiver. Did you ever specifically discuss with Mr. Hammond any of the contents of that waiver or any waiver?

A. Could I hear the question?

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Not the contents, no, sir, I did not know what a waiver was.

Q. The only one that talked to you about a waiver was Mr. New, the deputy prosecutor, right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was there - was Mr. New the only deputy prosecutor in front of the Grand Jury?

A. As far as I know, sir.

Q. Was he the only one who interrogated you in front of the Grand Jury?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You heard him purportedly reading from portions of the transcript, excerpts from the testimony before the Grand Jury, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When he quoted the things, did you say you heard that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you ever offered or was it made available to you any portion of the Grand Jury transcript of your testimony?

A. No, sir.

Q. When was the last time you took any phenobarbital prior to October 26?

A. When was the last time I took it?

Q. Before that date, yes.

A. I could not give you the exact time because I was taking it all the time.

Q. You were taking it all the time. Besides Anna Siscoe that you testified about and Randy Lepper that you testified about, did any other neighbor kids come around there?

A. Yes, Darlene Duke.

Q. Who else?

A. Darlene MacGuire, Michael Monroe.

Q. Anybody else?

A. Richard D. Hobbs did once in a big while and Coy Hubbard was there and a boy my daughter Paula knows, Randy Lepper was over every day and other various - you know - children - I don't really know their names that the kids went to school with.

Q. When was the last time you talked to Mr. Hammond about your case?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. When did Mr. Hammond or you terminate his relationship as your attorney?

A. I don't remember the exact date, Mr. Erbecker.

Q. At whose request was it, yours or his?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. At the time I accepted the case from Mr. Hammond, you and I had a conversation with Mr. Hammond, didn't we?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did I ask - didn't I tell you that I would accept it on one condition and that is Mr. Hammond and you and I would talk together?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did Mr. Hammond ever turn over his file to me?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Is it a fact, that you reprimanded Shirley as well as Sylvia and Jenny with reference to taking bottles from the grocery store?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is it a fact, you reprimanded and upbraided Shirley for other infractions around the house there?

A. Yes, I had to all my children. None of them were minding me at all.

Q. Now, during the most of September and October, on an average day, how many children would be around that house?

A. You mean every day?

Q. Yes.

A. Unless I chased them out, there was my children, Jenny and Sylvia and about four or five or six neighbor children.

Q. Anywhere from fourteen to eighteen children, would you say?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Every day?

A. Just about, sir.

Q. Now, in front of the Grand Jury, did Mr. New interrogate you in about the same manner as he is during this trial?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Was Mr. New's mannerisms about the same in the Grand Jury interrogation as they were during this trial?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. You were not represented by an attorney in front of the Grand Jury, were you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Everything went in front of the Grand Jury, didn't it?

A. I beg your pardon?

Q. Any kind of question they wanted to ask they compelled you to answer, didn't they?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Hammond know you were going to appear before the Grand Jury on that date?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ask for him?

A. We wondered where he was.

Q. These notes Mr. New talked to you about - did you ever authorize, compel or direct anybody to write those notes?

A. No, sir.

Q. You asked for a separate trial, as well as Stephanie, didn't you?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. These drugs you took - were they pills or powder?

A. Pills, sir.

Q. How much would you take them?

A. It all depends on when you mean did I take them. I was taking them pretty heavily about a month or more.

Q. What do you mean by heavily?

A. I took as many as eight or ten phenobarbitals at one time.

Q. At one time - was that every day or every other day or twice a day?

A. Whenever I woke up and it was time to take my medicine again I usually took them, yes, sir.

Q. What do you mean, your medicine?

A. I took Ephedrine Sulfate for asthma and had to keep taking it pretty heavily.

Q. Ephedrine?

A. Yes.

Q. What is that, a liquid?

A. No, that is a capsule.

Q. How much did you take that a day?

A. Whenever I woke up, sir.

Q. That would be how often?

MR. NEW: The State objects. This is repetitious of direct.

MR. ERBECKER: He brought it out on cross examination.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Would you take this Ephedrine Sulfate capsule every time you took phenobarbital?

A. Oh, yes, sir.

Q. How many Ephedrine Sulfate capsules would you take?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you take any other drugs at that time?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Were you allowed to make notes during the Grand Jury what your testimony was?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you make notes what your testimony was during the Grand Jury?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Do you have any way of remembering or recollecting what your Grand Jury testimony was?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Was there - do you remember how many Grand Jurors there was?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Was there a stenographer taking down notes?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Who, other than Mr. New directed your interrogation?

A. Truthfully, I don't remember anybody in the Grand Jury room but Mr. LeRoy New.

MR. ERBECKER: No further questions.

THE COURT: Defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski.

MR. BOWMAN: Could we have a recess?

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen, about a ten minute recess. During the recess, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion on the case till it is finally submitted to you. By agreement of counsel and with the consent of the State and defendants given in open court the jury is permitted to separate. Remember, however, do not read any newspaper articles that may appear about the case and don't watch anything or listen to anything that may be broadcast about the case. Jurors and Alternate Jurors are excused.

JURY EXCUSED.

RECESS.


THE COURT: Are you ready for the jury?

MR. BOWMAN: I have a motion. The defendants John Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard move the court for an examination of the Grand Jury testimony, of the transcript of the Grand Jury testimony of Gertrude Baniszewski December 8, 1965, for the reason it has been referred to in the testimony on direct and cross examination and for the reason that the testimony of the witness was introduced into evidence with respect to these two defendants, all for the purpose of determining whether or not any testimony is in that transcript to furnish a basis of cross examination of this witness on behalf of John Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard.

MR. RICE: Please the court, Paula Marie Baniszewski joins in the motion for the same reason, for the purpose of conceivable cross examination.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BOWMAN: Your Honor, at this time I would like the record to show by stipulation, if we can, by proof, if not, the transcript of that testimony is in court in custody of Mr. LeRoy New, Deputy Prosecuting Attorney - by stipulation, if I may.

THE COURT: Do you want to stipulate?

MR. NEW: I do not. I don't stipulate in a criminal trial. I don't stipulate to anything.

MR. BOWMAN: I would like to offer, Mr. New, as to the presence or absence.

THE COURT: Let's assume it is here and not proper cross examination as to the defendants seeking same. That is why I overruled the motion.

MR. BOWMAN: Very well. I do want the record to show it is here.

THE COURT: Assuming it is here.

MR. BOWMAN: Then I Offer to Prove it is here.

THE COURT: Well, assume it is here and not proper cross examination as to the defendants seeking same. Ready for the jury?

MR. BOWMAN: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

MR. ERBECKER: I have a few omitted questions.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Now, Mrs. Baniszewski, at the time of your retaining Mr. Hammond, did he also begin to represent your children?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. NEW: I would like to make an Offer to Prove, Your Honor, with or without the Jury. It does not make any difference. We have nothing to hide.

THE COURT: An Offer to Prove, with the objections there are going to be should be done in the absence of the Jury on this proposition. The objection has been sustained. The jury will retire to the Jury room for two or three minutes. Don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion on the case till it is finally submitted to you.

JURY EXCUSED.

OFFER TO PROVE (OUT OF PRESENCE OF THE JURY)

MR. ERBECKER: At this time the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski offers to prove the following, if permitted to answer the following questions.

Q. At the time of your retaining Mr. Hammond as your attorney, did he also begin to represent your children?

A. Yes.

Q. And who were the children he began to represent at that time?

A. Paula Marie Baniszewski, Stephanie Kay Baniszewski, John Stephan Baniszewski and myself.

Q. And he continued to represent you and these children until when?

A. Sometime the middle of January or toward the first of February.

Q. At that time, did you have a conversation with Mr. Hammond with reference to his withdrawal as your attorney in this case?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When and where?

A. It was in the deputy's office in the womens lockup here in the City-County Building.

Q. And at the time, what did Mr. Hammond say and what did you say?

A. He said he could not handle Paula nor Johnny nor me but was going to represent Stephanie, that he was going to turn us over to other attorneys.

THE COURT: I did not hear the last.

A. That he was going to turn us over to other attorneys.

Q. Who is this, now?

A. Myself, Paula Marie and John Stephan.

Q. At the time Mr. Hammond represented you and the other three defendants, would he ever talk to you together?

A. No, sir.

Q. Would he talk to you separately?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And he would talk to all four of you then privately and at the same occasion, with you privately?

A. That is right, sir.

Q. This went on from about what dates till when?

MR. NEW: Your Honor, the State will object. This is not an Offer to Prove. I don't know what it is.

THE COURT: It is far from being an Offer to Prove. Objection sustained to the form of the Offer to Prove.

MR. ERBECKER: The defendant offers to prove by the witness, if permitted to answer the question she will testify in substance that Mr. Hammond said he could not handle all four cases and was going to turn over the cases of the defendant and the other two defendants to somebody else and he, Mr. Hammond, would continue to represent Stephanie, is that right?

A. That is right, sir.

MR. ERBECKER: The defendant further offers to prove that if she is permitted to answer the following question the following answer would be given. In these conversations would he talk longer with Stephanie than he would to the other defendants. The answer is -

A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Anything else? I don't want to have to run the jury in and out.

MR. ERBECKER: Not in the Offer to Prove, no.

THE COURT: The reason I sustained the objection is because Mr. Hammond is not on trial. Benefits given or sought by a waiver, so a person can appear before the Grand Jury - if you accept the benefit you can't later complain from the benefit is the reason for the ruling. A waiver is a benefit sought by somebody and later to come in court and object to it after having obtained the benefits - you are charged also with the detriments. That has been the reason for my ruling.

MR. ERBECKER: We have no quarrel with the court's ruling. You can't accept a benefit and can't accept a detriment if you don't know anything willingly and consciously to do. That is the purpose for this. There is no reflection on anybody.

THE COURT: At the same time I give full faith and credit to lawyers and the advice they give to their clients. That is why I said we are not trying Mr. Hammond. Now you understand the ruling and the basis thereof, are you ready for the jury?

MR. ERBECKER: Yes.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Next question.

MR. ERBECKER: No further questions.

THE COURT: Any of the other defendants? Start with Paula Marie Baniszewski.

MR. RICE: We have some questions, Your Honor.

GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI ON THE STAND.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. GEORGE RICE, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
PAULA MARIE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, do you recall yesterday afternoon - the earlier part of the afternoon - stating you had been divorced several years ago from Mr. John Baniszewski, the father of these children?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. As a result of that divorce, who received legal care and custody of these children under the decree of the divorce?

A. I did.

Q. You were ordered to receive certain payments for their support by Mr. Baniszewski, were you not?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. These checks came to you through the Office of the Support Clerk in the City-County Building?

A. They were supposed to.

Q. Such as did come - how were they made out in terms of persons?

A. Who were they made out to - myself.

Q. For the checks to be cashed it, was necessary for you to endorse them properly on the back of the check?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you do so?

A. Yes.

Q. You applied this for the management of the household?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In the course of your living at 3850 East New York Street, you were frequently in company of one or more of your own children as well as those of the neighbors, were you not?

A. In the home?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In the course of that time, did you ever have occasion to know whether or not your daughter Paula smoked?

A. She does not smoke.

Q. Did you ever see her smoke any time around your house?

A. I think once or twice. Just one puff. She does not like smoking, sir.

Q. You testified, I believe, yesterday also that because of your illness and because of various drugs you were taking you had frequent occasions to lie down, take naps for extended periods of time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I believe you stated at approximately 2:00 o'clock yesterday you left instructions and if "anything came up" you were to be awakened and informed, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. To whom did you give this instruction?

A. To the oldest one that was there.

Q. This could vary from time to time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did your children, in response to this instruction awaken you?

A. Apparently not always.

Q. Some of the time they did?

A. Paula always did.

MR. RICE: No further questions.

THE COURT: Defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. FORREST BOWMAN, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANTS,
COY HUBBARD AND JOHN STEPHAN BANISZEWSKI

Q. What is the name of your youngest child, Mrs. Baniszewski?

A. Dennis Lee Wright, sir.

Q. Who is the father of this child?

A. Dennis Lee Wright.

Q. Dennis Lee Wright is the father of that child?

A. Yes.

Q. How old is Dennis Lee Wright?

A. He just turned two years old.

Q. How old is the father?

A. I don't know, sir, exactly.

Q. Approximately?

A. It was stated one time he was twenty-seven.

Q. Was it ever stated he was twenty-one?

A. No, sir.

MR. BOWMAN: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs may ask.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. JAMES NEDEFF, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
RICHARD HOBBS

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, last year during the summer and fall, 1965, did you tell me how many times you saw Ricky Hobbs in your house?

A. I'd say maybe - you mean during the summer and fall?

Q. Yes,

A. About five times.

Q. How many times.

A. About five times.

Q. Now, Mrs. Baniszewski, on the morning of October 26, 1965, there was signed, executed and filed and affidavit for First Degree Burglary against Robert Handlin, parts of which read "that on this day, before me, Noble R. Pearcy, personally came Detective Sheldon Lasky, who upon his oath said Robert Handlin on or about the 20th of October, 1965, County of Marion, did then and there unlawfully, feloniously, burglariously break and enter into the dwelling house of Gertrude Wright, then and there situated at 3850 East New York Street in which said dwelling house the said Gertrude Wright then lived". Now, this was signed and sworn the 26th of October. Now, are you the same Gertrude Wright endorsed as a witness for the State?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And Marie Baniszewski is listed as a witness for the State. Is that your daughter?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. NEDEFF: No other questions.

THE COURT: Any recross, State?

MR. NEW: The State has nothing further.

THE COURT: Any questions, Mr. Erbecker?

MR. ERBECKER: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Alright, next witness, please.

WITNESS EXCUSED.
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