Marie Baniszewski - Daughter of Defendant

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Marie Baniszewski - Daughter of Defendant

Postby admin » October 31st, 2010, 6:05 pm

MR. ERBECKER: This young lady.

WITNESS SWORN BY THE COURT.

MARIE BANISZEWSKI , a witness called on behalf of the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski,
being duly sworn by the court, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. State your name, please.

A. Marie Baniszewski.

Q. How old are you, Marie?

A. Eleven.

Q. Where do you go to school?

A. School 54.

Q. What is your teacher's name?

A. Miss Snider.

Q. What does she teach?

A. She teaches the 5th grade.

Q. Are you in the 6th grade?

A. 5th.

Q. What are your marks in the 5th grade, pretty good?

A. Not so good.

Q. Any A's?

A. A couple of them.

Q. What did you get A's in?

A. Physical Health and Physical Ed. I mean Health and Physical Ed.

Q. Now, do you know where you are right now?

A. In the City-County Building in Criminal Court Two.

Q. Criminal Court Two. Do you know the judge's name?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you go to Sunday School?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What Sunday School?

A. Bethel Tabernacle.

Q. What is the minister's name?

A. Pastor Stevens.

Q. You are going to tell the truth on this witness stand, aren't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are going to tell only what you know and what you saw and what you heard, are you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you know what it is, what happens to little girls who tell untruths?

A. They will get put somewhere where they would not like it.

Q. They will get punished?

A. Yes.

Q. You know when you raised your right hand and took an obligation to tell the truth - you are going to tell the truth?

A. Yes.

Q. You are willing to do that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are willing to testify only as to the truth on the stand here, are you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, do you know my name?

A. Mr. Erbecker.

Q. How many times have I talked to you?

A. Two times.

Q. When was that?

A. Yesterday and today.

Q. And I never did talk to you alone, did I?

A. No, sir.

Q. And today I had an attorney come in the room when I talked to you, did I?

A. Yes.

Q. What was his name?

A. Mr. John Hammond.

Q. He is your attorney?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And I told him, as I am telling you now, that we are going to ask you to tell the truth, did I?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I told you - you should not testify to anything up there that would incriminate you, get you in trouble, I told you that, did I?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I further told you the judge would look out, see your rights are protected, did I?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I told you Mr. Hammond would be available to help if you got in trouble, wherein your rights would be violated, I told you that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know why you are on the witness stand to testify here today?

A. To testify, to see if my mom killed Sylvia Likens.

Q. You know you are called for a witness for your mother, don't you?

A. Yes.

Q. You know you are obligated to tell the truth anyway, don't you?

A. Yes.

Q. No matter who it hurts?

A. Yes.

Q. Now then, Marie, did you live with your mother?

A. Yes.

Q. Where?

A. 3850 East New York.

Q. Indianapolis, Indiana?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you start living there?

A. In September, I think it was.

Q. September, 1965?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you live there all the month of September 1965?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you live there all the month of October 1965?

A. No, sir.

Q. When did you leave?

A. I can't quite remember the date.

Q. Do you know who lived there with you?

A. My mother and my sister Paula, my sister Stephanie, my brother Jimmy, Johnny and Shirley and little Denny.

Q. Did anybody else live there with you?

A. Sylvia Likens and Jenny Likens.

Q. When did they first start living there, if you know?

A. Three or four weeks before school opened, I mean a couple of days before school opened.

Q. A couple of days before school opened. Were you living there at the time they began living there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you know Sylvia Likens?

A. Not so well.

Q. Did you ever see her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How old was she.

A. Sixteen.

Q. Sixteen, now during the month of September did you see your mother - you know your mother right here - did you see her there at the house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Every day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you be going to school in September?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What that time did you start?

A. Well, the first day at school comes - I don't know when that is.

Q. Sometime in September?

A. Yes.

Q. What were your school hours?

A. From 8:30 to 12:00 o'clock, I think it was, and 1:00 o'clock to 3:15.

Q. Now, during the month of September, what time would you get home after school?

A. 3:30.

Q. Would you stay home?

A. No, we would go outside and play.

Q. Who is we now?

A. Shirley, Jimmy and Johnny and Jenny and Sylvia.

Q. Jenny and Sylvia. What time do you get up in the morning, Marie, when you go to school?

A. 7:30.

Q. All the other children would be up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would Sylvia be up?

A. She would be up before we would.

Q. What time would you leave for school?

A. 8:30.

Q. What time would you come in for the evening meal, after after you would come in and go out to play?

A. 6:00 o'clock.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia eat the evening meal?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you eat with her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you eat with her - would you say you ate with her in September?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The evening meal. What time would that be around?

A. Round 7:00.

Q. Would you say about every day in September you ate with her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How about October?

A. She ate with us.

Q. Were you living there in October?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And I think you said you did not live the whole month of October. When did you stop living there in October?

A. The day after Sylvia died.

Q. The day after she died. Do you remember what day she died?

A. I think it was October 26.

Q. After that you did not live there, did you?

A. No.

Q. October 1 to October 26 would you see Sylvia often?

A. Every day.

Q. In the morning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In the night too?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you eat supper with Sylvia in October?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. At the supper table?

A. Yes.

Q. Who would eat with you there?

A. Sylvia, my mom, Paula, Stephanie, Johnny, Shirley, Denny, Jimmy.

Q. And did that continue all the month of October?

A. No.

Q. When did it stop?

A. The day Sylvia died.

Q. The day before she died did she eat supper?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What day of the week did Sylvia die, do you remember, Honey?

A. On Tuesday.

Q. On Monday before that did you see Sylvia then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you eat supper with her?

A. Yes.

Q. Sunday before that did you eat supper with her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever at any time see your mother strike her?

A. Only when she was bad.

Q. When was that?

A. When she would do something at the park that mom would not see fit for us kids to know about.

Q. Would that be very often?

A. No.

Q. How often?

A. Once in a real long time.

Q. Once in a real long time. Did you ever see your mother hit her with a board or anything?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see her hit her with a paddle?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When?

A. Only a couple of times when mom gave her a whipping.

Q. When your mom gave her what?

A. A whipping.

Q. Who a whipping?

A. Sylvia.

Q. When was that?

A. Pardon me?

Q. Are you too nervous to go on?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Do you want me to ask the court to recess till tomorrow morning?

A. Yes.

Q. Will you be ready to testify in the morning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that your wish?

A. Yes.

MR. ERBECKER: I respectfully move the court for a continuance till tomorrow morning.

THE COURT: Let's try it some more. It's early yet.

Q. Can you answer the question?

A. I could not understand your question.

Q. Well, we were talking about your mother using the board on Sylvia, remember me asking you that?

A. It was one day - mom never liked nobody eating if there was not enough to go around mom would not let us have it. Sylvia went down to the park and would not let us kids know it and she ate a sandwich and I came home and told mom and mom gave her a whipping.

Q. When was that?

A. In the summer time.

Q. Now, did you see your mommy whip her with the paddle in September?

A. No.

Q. In October?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see your mommy burn Sylvia with anything?

A. Not that I can think or right now.

Q. Did you ever see your mommy throw Sylvia in the bath tub with hot water?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see your mommy abuse Sylvia any way?

A. Pardon?

THE COURT: The word abuse.

Q. Did you ever see your mother mistreat Sylvia any way?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, were you present when - strike that - did you ever see your mommy put some marks on Sylvia's stomach?

A. No.

Q. Were you present when the marks were put on Sylvia's stomach?

A. Only for a little bit.

Q. Did your mother have anything to do with that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where was your mother?

A. In bed.

Q. How do you know she was in bed?

A. Because I saw - Shirley was in there to kiss her goodbye.

Q. Why was she in bed, do you know?

A. She was sick.

Q. What was the matter?

A. I think an asthma attack.

Q. Did you help her any way?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you do?

A. I went to the doctor and got her a prescription.

Q. Did you ever help your mother any time when she was in bed?

A. Yes.

Q. How often would she be in bed?

A. She would be in bed a couple of days because she was not feeling so good, she was weak.

Q. Weak?

A. Weak.

Q. How do you know?

A. Because she - every time she got up she had to hurry up and sit down or else she would fall.

Q. Did you ever hear your mother use any curse words or swear words around the house?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever hear her use filthy, dirty language?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she permit the children to do that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she ever run the neighbor children out of the house?

A. She tried to.

Q. Who.

A. Anna Siscoe and Darlene MacGuire and Mike Monroe and Reedy Lepper.

Q. What would she tell them?

A. She would tell them to get out of the house?

Q. Why?

A. Because she was getting ready - she was getting ready for us kids to go somewhere.

Q. What would the other children be doing around the house?

A. Playing around.

Q. Did any of them ever bother Sylvia?

A. Mistreat her?

Q. Which one would mistreat her? What would they do?

A. Anna Siscoe would beat her up real bad.

Q. How?

A. Get her by the hair and throw her down and walk in her face and stomp on her stomach, give her a bloody nose and bloody mouth.

Q. What did your mommy do?

A. Tell Anna Siscoe to let her go.

Q. Is Anna Siscoe a big girl or a little girl?

A. I think she is thirteen.

Q. Is she big and tall?

A. Tall.

Q. Real heavyset?

A. Yes.

Q. What would she do?

A. Say "I don't have to".

Q. And at that time when your mother told her that, was your mother sick?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know what was the matter with her?

A. She had a real bad cold.

Q. Did she ever cough?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You say you went to the doctor for your mother?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. When she needed a prescription real bad.

Q. How many times did you go to the doctor for your mother?

A. Nine or six times.

Q. Nine times?

A. Nine times.

Q. What did you say, six?

A. Nine or six times.

Q. What doctor did you go to?

A. Dr. Lindenborg.

Q. Where is his office?

A. I could not tell you the name of the street.

Q. Did you walk there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you get a prescription for your mother?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What would you do with the prescription?

A. Carry them home, bring them home to mom.

Q. What would she do?

A. Read the thing that say how many times to take them and then take one or two, if it said.

Q. Take what one or two?

A. Her medicine, the prescription.

Q. Were they tablets?

A. Pills and tablets.

Q. Do you know what they were?

A. No, sir.

Q. How much would your mother take of these?

A. As many times as it would say on the box.

Q. Would she take them every day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would she take them more than once a day?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, in the month of October, around the 15th of October, was your mother ill at that time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was she ever in bed on that date?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How about before October 15, was she in bed?

A. She was doing ironings.

Q. She was doing ironings?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When?

A. Well, she would a couple of days during the week.

Q. Would she go to bed after the ironing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time did she usually go to bed at night?

A. 8:00.

Q. How often did she do that?

A. Once in a while, she would go to bed at 8:30 or 9:00.

Q. What time did you go to bed?

A. 8:00 o'clock.

Q. Where did you sleep?

A. Upstairs.

Q. With whom?

A. With my sisters - with my sister Shirley and Sylvia and Jenny.

Q. Would Sylvia sleep in the same bed?

A. We did not have enough beds.

Q. Where did Sylvia sleep?

A. On the floor on a mattress.

Q. Where?

A. In our room.

Q. In your room?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Every night?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see her sleep any other place?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see her on Sunday night before she died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was she sleeping then?

A. In our room.

Q. On the floor?

A. On the mattress on the floor.

Q. How about Monday night before she died, Marie?

A. She slept on the mattress on the floor.

Q. Did you see her sleep on the floor?

A. She never slept on the floor. She slept on the mattress.

Q. And did you ever hear your mother tell anybody to mistreat her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever hear your mother tell anybody to leave her alone?

A. Quite a few times.

Q. Quite an few times. Now, was your mother able to run the house there herself?

A. I don't know - yes.

Q. All the time?

A. No.

Q. When was she unable to run the house?

A. When she was bad sick.

Q. When would that be?

A. It was either September or the month of October.

Q. Who would look out after things?

A. Paula and Stephanie and Johnny.

Q. Who?

A. Paula and Stephanie and Johnny.

Q. What would they do?

A. If they did not see anything fit for Sylvia to do, they would whip her.

Q. They would whip who?

A. Sylvia.

Q. For what?

A. She was bad.

Q. What would your mother be doing at that time?

A. She would be in bed.

Q. In bed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you know she was in bed?

A. Because I was right by her side.

Q. You were by her side?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How much would you say your mother was in bed the first part of October now, Marie?

A. Four or five times.

Q. And was your mother in bed Saturday before Sylvia died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you know she was?

A. Because I was down there always rubbing her back or legs.

Q. Now, do you remember the day when somebody put marks, burned some marks on Sylvia's stomach?

A. Only part of the time.

Q. What time of day or night was that?

A. Around about 11:00 o'clock in the afternoon.

Q. In the morning?

A. In the afternoon.

Q. In the afternoon, and where did this take place?

A. In our house.

Q. Was your mommy there at that time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she have anything to do with it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where was she?

A. In bed.

Q. How do you know she was in bed?

A. Because I was in there about ready to kiss her goodbye before we went outdoors.

Q. She had nothing to do with that, did she?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever, any time, see your mommy knock that girl to the floor, strike her?

A. Not that I can remember of.

Q. Did you ever see your mommy order any of the other children, neighbor children, to leave Sylvia alone?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who did she tell to, other than Anna Siscoe?

A. Randy Lepper.

Q. When was that?

A. A couple of days before October.

Q. Before October what?

A. Before the month of October.

Q. Before the month of October. What was Randy doing?

A. Hitting her.

Q. Hitting who?

A. Sylvia.

Q. With his fist?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times did he do that?

A. Four or five times.

Q. Did you ever see any of the neighbor kids burn Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see any of the neighbor kids hit her with a paddle?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see any of the neighbor kids do anything else to Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was there - did your mother run any of the other neighbor kids out of the house other than Randy and Anna Siscoe?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Darlene MacGuire.

Q. When did that happen?

A. Darlene would come in and smoke and -

Q. Smoke? How old was she?

A. Fourteen.

Q. What would she do?

A. Put her cigarette out on Sylvia.

Q. Put her cigarette out on Sylvia, the MacGuire girl would do that?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw it?

A. Yes.

Q. Was your mommy there at that time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she say?

A. She would try to stop her.

Q. What did the MacGuire girl do?

A. Stopped it and put the cigarette out in the ashtray.

Q. How many times did the MacGuire girl do that?

A. A couple of times.

Q. Did anybody else of the neighbor kids, other than the MacGuire girl and the Lepper boy and the Siscoe girl - was there anybody else your mother ran out?

A. Mike Monroe.

Q. How old is he?

A. Twelve.

Q. Were you ever there when Mike Monroe was there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. In September.

Q. What did you see Mike Monroe do?

A. Hit her.

Q. Hit who?

A. Sylvia.

Q. With his fist?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times?

A. Three or four.

Q. That is all he did?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did your mother do about that?

A. Told him to quit it and get out of the house?

Q. Did he go?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Anybody else other than the MacGuire girl, the Lepper boy, the Siscoe girl, and the Monroe boy of the neighbor children?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see your mother try to help Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. Two weeks before the starting of October.

Q. What did you see your mother do?

A. She took a piece of cotton and put merthiolate on her sores.

Q. And how many times did you see her do that?

A. Quite a few times.

Q. Quite a few times. Did you ever see her do anything other than put merthiolate on her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever hear that girl say something to your mother?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she say?

A. She called her a dirty name.

Q. What?

A. She called her a dirty name.

Q. Who called who a dirty name?

A. Sylvia called momma a dirty name.

Q. How many times?

A. Just once.

Q. What did your mother do then?

A. Spanked her.

Q. Did she injure her, hurt her?

A. No, sir.

Q. That was only once?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever hear any conversation between Sylvia and your mother other than that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were they friendly throughout the house in your presence?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the evening meal, would your mother eat?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who all would eat the evening meals there while Sylvia was there?

A. Paula, Jenny, Stephanie, Johnny, Jimmy, Shirley and little Denny.

Q. Was Sylvia given the same food as you children got?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was she ever denied food?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see your mother at any time hurt Sylvia any way?

A. No, sir.

MR. ERBECKER: No further questions.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury and Alternate Jurors, let me recess for the night right now. Can you all come back at 9:00 o'clock in the morning? By agreement of counsel and with the consent of the State and the defendants, given in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. You will return tomorrow morning to the jury room at 9:00 o'clock. During the adjournment, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Do not form or express any opinion on this case till it is finally submitted to you. Do not read any newspaper articles that may appear about the case and don't watch or listen to anything that may be broadcast about the case. Jurors and Alternate Jurors are excused till 9:00 o'clock tomorrow morning.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

JURY EXCUSED.

THE COURT: Everybody be here at 9:00 o'clock in the morning.

MR. ERBECKER: Let the record show that counsel for the defendant stands in open court in the presence of the court and informs the court he can't make it at 9:00 for trial because he has to interrogate another witness in this cause and that this is the second day he is presenting testimony on behalf of the defendant and it is impossible to be here at 9:00 o'clock, as the court designates.

THE COURT: Let the record show, Mr. Erbecker, the court orders the trial to commence tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock. We expect you to be here.

COURT ADJOURNED.

MAY 12, 1966 AND THE TRIAL OF THIS CAUSE WAS RESUMED.

MR. ERBECKER: We requested permission to talk to one of our witnesses. Permission was denied to talk to Marie Baniszewski. Is that right?

GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI: Yes.

THE COURT: I did not hear that.

MR. ERBECKER: We requested permission to speak to Marie Baniszewski and were denied.

THE COURT: Who denied?

MR. ERBECKER: Mr. Hammond.

THE COURT: What do you mean he denied it?

MR. ERBECKER: Ask him.

THE COURT: Do you mean you want to consult with the witness?

MR. ERBECKER: Yes.

THE COURT: Did you promise a witness out there you would take him first? Do you want to take him out of order?

MR. ERBECKER: If the court will permit.

THE COURT: Sure I will permit.

MR. ERBECKER: I would like to get a court order, if necessary, to talk to Marie Baniszewski in the presence of her counsel later on before she testifies.

THE COURT: She has already testified.

MR. ERBECKER: We have omitted questions.

THE COURT: Take this man Churchill out of order. You promised him you would take him promptly at 9:00 o'clock?

MR. ERBECKER: Yes.

THE COURT: Show permission granted to take - permission granted defendant Gertrude Baniszewski to take witness Churchill out of order. Have you been sworn?

WITNESS: No, sir.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.
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