Marie Baniszewski - Daughter of Defendant - Resumed

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Marie Baniszewski - Daughter of Defendant - Resumed

Postby admin » October 31st, 2010, 6:02 pm

THE COURT: Next witness, please.

MR. ERBECKER: I ask permission to consult with the witness.

MR. NEW: I thought we were on cross examination.

THE COURT: We had some omitted questions. Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, retire to the jury room a few minutes. During the recess, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express an opinion on the case till it is finally submitted to you. Jury and Alternate Jurors are excused.

JURY EXCUSED.

MR. ERBECKER: At this time the defendant would like to make a motion. The defendant Gertrude Baniszewski respectfully prays the court for an appropriate order permitting her to talk to and converse with one of her witnesses, Marie Baniszewski, in the presence of Marie Baniszewski's attorney or anyone else the court sees fit to appoint.

MR. NEW: At this time, Your Honor, since it is out of the hearing and presence of the jury, I would like to tell the court the State of Indiana was given this witness before court adjourned on cross examination. I would like to further point out the State has reason to believe this witness has been persuaded to lie on the stand and it is objectionable to the State that he talk with her at this time. I would like the witness to say whatever she has to say under oath in the presence of the jury.

THE COURT: Mr. Hammond, you are the attorney for the witness?

MR. HAMMOND: Yes, I am, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Before you came in - maybe you were here before the jury came in this morning, reference was made, I think, by Mr. Erbecker, you have told your client not to talk to him.

MR. HAMMOND: I instructed my client 5:00 o'clock last night to talk to no one concerning the case, under the separation rule, to talk to no one. She was going back on the stand this morning, in the middle of testimony, and I did not feel the State of Indiana, Mr. New, Mr. Erbecker, Mr. Rice, Mr. Bowman, or Mr. Nedeff had a right to tamper with this witness. No one has and I feel they have no right to. Nobody has tampered with the witness since 5:00 o'clock last night and I intend to prevent that.

THE COURT: Here is the way the court feels. I see no good can come to the defendant by having a conference with her before the State cross examines. After the State is through cross examining and after the other defendants have asked questions, for any omitted questions you may have on direct examination, I will permit you to confer with the witness.

MR. ERBECKER: Let the record show at this time, defendant Gertrude Baniszewski by counsel, respectfully prays for permission to talk to their witness, her witness, Marie Baniszewski, in the presence of her counsel and discuss with her some omitted questions which were inadvertently missed yesterday.

THE COURT: Permission granted after cross examination.

MR. ERBECKER: Your Honor, the defendant tells me she is ill and would like either to talk to the doctor or talk to somebody here. Did you tell me that twice this morning?

GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI: Yes.

THE COURT: See if Sgt. Churchill is here. If he is not, get him here. Sheriff Lady, what is your name?

DEPUTY SHERIFF: Kent.

THE COURT: Did Gertrude Baniszewski complain to you about being ill?

DEPUTY SHERIFF: She told us this morning she did not feel too good, she was short of breath.

THE COURT: Did she tell you what was wrong?

DEPUTY SHERIFF: Short of breath.

THE COURT: Alright, tell Sgt. Churchill to get Dr. Shuck over from the hospital and we will call a recess when he comes. Bring in the jury.JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: The State of Indiana may cross examine this witness.

MARIE BANISZEWSKI , a witness called on behalf of the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski,
being duly sworn by the court, testified as follows:

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. LEROY NEW,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. Now, will you state your name to me again, please?

A. Marie Baniszewski.

Q. Marie, if you will speak real loudly so I can hear you, I am sure all the ladies and gentlemen in the courtroom can hear you, especially the jury.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How old are you, Marie?

A. Eleven.

Q. Now, Marie, you testified yesterday that you had been in the home with Sylvia Likens during the time she lived there. Were you there all the time she live there?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you know Jenny, her sister?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you know Coy Hubbard, one of the defendants?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Will, you point him out to the jury, please, Marie?

A. The boy with the curly hair. (indicating defendant Coy Hubbard)

Q. How is he dressed, Marie?

A. He is wearing a suit and it is gray and has something like stripes going up and down and crosswords.

Q. Now, Marie, can you tell me why you are crying?

A. I am nervous.

Q. Marie, if you will just try to take your time and try to remember the best you can everything that happened - you will do that?

A. Yes.

Q. The ladies and gentlemen on the jury want to know everything that happened the best you can recall. There is nothing to be afraid of. Will you try to do that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Try. Take your time now. Did you see Coy Hubbard in your home while Sylvia lived there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How often would he come down?

A. He would come in when he would get off work.

Q. When he got off work?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he go to work?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did he work?

A. Laughner's Cafeteria.

Q. Do you know what he did there?

A. I think he worked in the kitchen.

Q. Would he come about every day?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you have any idea how many times he might come by during the month of October 1965?

A. He would come over on weekends.

Q. Generally on weekends?

A. He would come once in a while during the week.

Q. Now, would you tell the jury whether you ever saw Coy Hubbard ever do anything to hurt Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you see?

A. Get down like the do in football - huddle - and Sylvia would be against the wall and Johnny would be on the other and they said - I forgot the word - but Coy would run into her till she screamed.

Q. Where did they do that, in the house?

A. Upstairs.

Q. In the bedroom?

A. Yes.

Q. What did Johnny do?

A. Johnny just would stay in the place where he was.

Q. How many times did you see Coy do this?

A. Once in a while.

Q. More than once?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times would you guess, Marie, he did this?

A. Around four or five times.

Q. What part of Sylvia's body would he hit?

A. Her stomach.

Q. Her stomach?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did Sylvia do after she was hit, besides scream?

A. Hold her stomach and scream.

Q. Did she fall to the floor?

A. Yes.

Q. Did anybody help her up?

A. Yes.

Q. Who would help her?

A. Me and Jenny.

Q. You and Jenny would help her?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see Coy Hubbard do anything else that would hurt?

A. Yes.

Q. What else did you see?

A. Well, he put his hands around her neck.

Q. O.K. What would he do, Marie?

A. Pressed his thumbs on her throat.

Q. How many times would he do that?

A. Once, he only did it once.

Q. How long did he hold her throat?

A. Three or four seconds.

Q. What would Sylvia do?

A. Gag.

Q. Do you know why he did it?

A. I don't know, no, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia do anything to Coy Hubbard that hurt him?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever hear her say anything to him, call him names that would cause him to do this to her?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia do anything to anybody around the house to hurt them?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Coy Hubbard do anything else to hurt her?

A. No.

Q. When did he do this choking and football?

A. In the month she died.

Q. That would be October?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Coy Hubbard in the basement of the house?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see your brother Johnny hurt Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did he do?

A. He would hit her as hard as he could.

Q. He would hit her as hard as he could?

A. Yes.

Q. With his fist?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did he hit Sylvia, what part of her body?

A. On her arm.

Q. Anywhere else?

A. No, sir.

Q. When did he do that?

A. In the month of October.

Q. How often would he do it?

A. Three or four times.

Q. Now, you said Johnny was behind Sylvia when Coy Hubbard would hit her with a tackle of some kind?

A. No, Johnny was right beside him.

Q. Beside him?

A. Yes.

Q. What did John do when Coy would do this to Sylvia?

A. I think he would go to the side and Coy would ram right in her.

Q. Did John ever hit her at the time?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Johnny do anything else except hit her with his fist as hard as he could three or four times?

A. No, sir, not that I can remember of.

Q. Where was Sylvia when she got hit by Johnny?

A. Downstairs.

Q. Where downstairs?

A. In the front room.

Q. What was Sylvia doing that would make Johnny hit her?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you see her do anything to him?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did Sylvia do after Johnny hit her with his fist?

A. She would start crying and hold on to her arm.

Q. Did she do anything else besides stand there and cry?

A. She would go upstairs and sit down.

Q. Was your mother there when this happened?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she do?

A. She told Johnny - Mom told Johnny he better straighten up or she would call Daddy.

Q. Johnny had better straighten up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see John do anything else to Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see John in the basement with Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. In the month of October.

Q. What did you see John and Sylvia doing in the basement?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You do your best, Marie, if you were down there try and remember and tell everything you saw as best you can. That will help the jury. Tell what happened. It is alright.

A. He would hit her.

Q. I could not hear you, Marie.

A. He would hit her.

Q. How soon was that before she died?

A. In October.

Q. Do you know how many days or nights?

A. The first week.

Q. The first week before she died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who else was down there when John hit her in the basement?

A. Paula.

Q. Alright, anyone else?

A. Stephanie.

Q. Stephanie. You?

A. I was only down there to get a rake.

Q. To get the rake?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, what did Johnny hit her with?

A. His fist.

Q. Where did he hit her?

A. On the arm.

Q. Did he hit her anywhere else?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did he do anything else to her?

A. He would kick her.

Q. Where would he kick her?

A. On her leg.

Q. Did you see him kick her anywhere else?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where was Sylvia when she got kicked?

A. Downstairs.

Q. What was she doing?

A. Straightening up the basement.

Q. Was she standing up when she got kicked?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anybody jump on her with their feet?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anybody else kick her?

A. No, sir.

Q. What was Paula doing when Johnny hit her and kicked her?

A. Paula was folding up clothes.

Q. That was about a week before she died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Why did Johnny hit her and kick her if she was cleaning up the basement?

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I don't know.

Q. Would you turn and look at the jury, please, and tell the jury why he kicked her?

A. I guess because he did not like her.

Q. Why did he -

MR. BOWMAN: We move to strike that.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BOWMAN: We move to strike for the reason it is a guess and a guess is not admissible.

THE COURT: Overruled. This is cross examination.

Q. Do you know why Johnny did not like Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she ever do anything you know of to make him not like her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did Johnny do anything else to her besides hit her and kick her?

A. He stepped on her foot till it got a blister on her foot.

Q. What part of his foot?

A. The sole of his shoe.

Q. Did she get a blister?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. A bad one?

A. It got infected.

Q. Did anyone give her any treatment for it?

A. Mom put merthiolate on it.

Q. Did you see that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You say that was within a week before she died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Paula help Sylvia while Johnny was doing this to her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did anyone help her while Johnny was doing this to her?

A. Not that I can remember of.

Q. What were you doing, Marie?

A. I was going to get ready to go out and play.

Q. O.K. And do you know why you were in the basement at the time?

A. To get a rake.

Q. Did you get a rake?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then you left?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who did you leave in the basement with Sylvia?

A. It was Johnny and Paula.

Q. At that time did you see Paula do anything to Sylvia?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see Johnny do anything else to Sylvia?

A. Maybe he would slap her once or twice.

Q. With what?

A. The palm of his hand.

Q. Did you ever see him hit her with anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Johnny burn her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, you stated yesterday, Marie, that your mother used a paddle on Sylvia, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How often did she do this, Marie, how often?

A. Two or three times.

Q. Two or three times?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Marie, I want you to take a look at what has been introduced in evidence as State's Exhibit No. 14 that has a little mark put on it so we know what we are talking about. Is that the paddle your mother hit Sylvia with?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she ever hit anyone else with it?

A. She would spank us kids if we did anything wrong.

Q. Did you actually see your mother spank Sylvia with that paddle?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did she hit her?

A. Right where she sat down.

Q. On her backside?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she ever hit her anyplace else?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anyone else hit Sylvia with that paddle?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who would you see?

A. Paula.

Q. How often would Paula hit her with it?

A. Three or four times a week.

Q. Three or four times a week?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times would Paula hit her with it when she was spanking her?

A. Fifteen times.

Q. Fifteen times. Where would she hit her?

A. Right where she sat down at.

Q. Is that the only place she ever hit her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, what would Sylvia do when Sylvia - Paula was hitting her fifteen times with the paddle?

A. Cry.

Q. Paula hit her pretty part?

A. I could not tell you.

Q. Hard enough to make Sylvia cry?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anyone else hit Sylvia with that paddle?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who?

A. Darlene MacGuire.

Q. Darlene hit her with the paddle?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the same Darlene you said yesterday put cigarettes out on Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, Marie, I want you to look at this little lady and tell the jury if this is the Darlene MacGuire you said put cigarettes out on Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see Darlene actually take cigarettes and burn Sylvia with them?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. She would do it every time she came over.

Q. How many times would that be?

A. Every day.

Q. For how long?

A. Till the day she died, till the day before she died.

Q. Did you see this little lady in your home the day before Sylvia died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see her put cigarettes out on her the day before she died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Screamed and held on to her back.

Q. Did this little lady smoke?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You saw her do that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, over what period of time did Darlene MacGuire come into your home and put out cigarettes on Sylvia?

A. Right after I came home from school.

Q. How many days would you say you saw Darlene MacGuire in your home before Sylvia died?

A. Every day.

Q. Now, Marie, is it a fact Darlene MacGuire was not in your home later than the second week in September, never even in your home?

A. She was in our house every day.

Q. Are you sure about that, Marie?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, you said yesterday that you were present part of the time when there was a needle being scratched on Sylvia's stomach, did you say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What day was that done?

A. On Tuesday, a week before she died.

Q. I am sorry, I can't hear.

A. On Tuesday a week before she died.

Q. Exactly a week before Sylvia died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Day time or night time?

A. Day time.

Q. Who else was there?

A. Richard Hobbs, Paula, Stephanie and Johnny and Shirley and Jimmy and Mommy and I and Sylvia and Jenny.

Q. There was no school that day?

A. There was no school.

Q. No school? Why not?

A. We were out for some reason at school. I can't remember the reason.

Q. How do you know it was Tuesday?

A. Because on Monday Richard Hobbs was over there and when he came home from school and he brought home enough homework to do for Tuesday, till the day after Tuesday and then that was just it.

Q. But you were there, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it was during the daytime, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know about what time it was?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was it morning or afternoon?

A. Afternoon.

Q. Your mother was there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did Sylvia - where was she when they scratched the words on her?

A. In the kitchen.

Q. Where were you?

A. In Mom's bedroom.

Q. You were in your mother's bedroom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You said you were there when they scratched the needle on her. Were you there?

A. I was only in there for the first minute.

Q. You mean sixty seconds?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What were you doing in there, Marie?

A. Going - I just came up from the basement.

Q. What did you see?

A. I saw Richard Hobbs starting to scratch the letter I on her.

Q. The letter what?

A. The letter I.

Q. The letter I on who?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Where was Sylvia?

A. Standing in the corner.

Q. What was she doing?

A. Just standing there.

Q. How was she dressed?

A. No clothes.

Q. There were no clothes on her at all?

A. No, sir.

Q. This was Tuesday, exactly a week before she died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You saw the letter I being scratched?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did he do that in the sixty seconds you were there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did he do an thing else while you were there?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did he have in his hand?

A. A needle.

Q. Was the needle hot?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you know?

A. Because Shirley lit a match and he told Shirley to light a match so he could heat the needle on it.

Q. Did you hear him say that?

A. I heard him.

Q. If Shirley said you lit the match, who is telling the truth?

A. It was Shirley lit the match.

Q. Did you light the match, Marie?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is that the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see Shirley light the matches?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you stay in the kitchen after you saw the letter I being scratched?

A. Only till after the letter I was scratched.

Q. You waited that long?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then where did you go?

A. Outdoors.

Q. Straight out?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see anybody?

A. No, sir, Jenny was with me.

Q. O.K. Did you talk with anybody?

A. No, sir.

Q. Not a soul?

A. Only Jenny.

Q. Did you see your mother?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is somebody, isn't it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you see her?

A. Before I went outdoors.

Q. Where was she?

A. In bed.

Q. Did you tell her somebody was scratching the letter I on Sylvia's stomach in her kitchen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she do?

A. Nothing.

Q. What did she say?

A. Nothing.

Q. She did not say a word?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, Marie, you are not telling the truth, are you?

A. I am telling the truth, sir.

Q. No, the truth is you lit the matches and you were heating the needle?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is it also the truth you than went downstairs when Randy Lepper came and you lit a paper, heating an iron?

A. No, sir.

Q. Marie, all we want is the truth and we want the whole truth. Now, Marie, I want you to look at what has been marked State's Exhibit No. 6. That is a picture of a sink with burned paper. You burned that paper?

A. No, I never lit the paper.

Q. Did you ever see paper in the sink?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know where the sink is?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you go down there and light it?

A. No.

Q. Who did that?

A. It was Paula.

Q. Paula did that?

A. Yes, she lit it with matches.

Q. Did you see it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I want to show you this, State's Exhibit No. 11. I want you to look at it. Have you see it before?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is it?

A. A hook.

Q. Did you ever see that heated up?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anyone put that to the paper you said Paula lit?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where did you see that iron?

A. Downstairs on - in the basement, hanging up on a nail.

Q. Did you ever see anybody put it in their hands?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anybody put it to Sylvia's stomach?

A. No.

Q. When was it you actually saw Paula light the paper?

A. Before I went out to rake leaves.

Q. Why did she light paper in the sink?

A. Because they were going to heat that thing and put it on Sylvia's stomach.

Q. They were going to heat the iron marked State's Exhibit No. 11, this iron, is that what you are saying, she was going to heat it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see the fire actually lit, see the paper burn?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you see it burn?

A. I was only down there a couple of minutes.

Q. Did you see anybody put the iron in the paper?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Paula.

Q. Who else was there?

A. Johnny.

Q. What was Johnny doing?

A. He was going to hold Sylvia down.

Q. Did he hold her down?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she have anything in her mouth?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she have?

A. A piece of cloth.

Q. Who put it there?

A. Johnny.

Q. Why did he do that?

A. So she would not scream.

Q. Was anybody else down there besides you and Johnny and Paula?

A. No.

Q. Just the three of you and Sylvia, which made four?

A. I was only down there to get a rake.

Q. Was Jenny down there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That makes five. Was Shirley down there?

A. No, sir.

Q. She was not there at all?

A. No.

Q. Are you sure about that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was Shirley upstairs when the needle was scratched on Sylvia's stomach?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She did not go downstairs when she was branded?

A. No, sir.

Q. But you did?

A. I was not there when she was branded. I was just down there to get a rake.

Q. You saw them put the iron in the paper?

A. Yes.

Q. You got the rake?

A. Yes.

Q. What else did you do?

A. I went out to rake leaves.

Q. Did you see them actually put the iron to her stomach?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not see that?

A. No.

Q. Did you tell anyone Paula was downstairs with Johnny putting a brand on Sylvia's stomach with a hot iron?

A. No, sir.

Q. You just went out and raked leaves?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, Marie, if Shirley says you are the one who lit the paper, started the fire to heat the iron, and stood there while she was branded, is that the truth?

A. I did not.

Q. Shirley is not telling the truth? Did Shirley not tell the truth about that, Marie, or are you not telling the truth?

A. Oh, God help me.

Q. We want everything that happened, Marie, and we want the truth. You tell it the best you can remember it. Do you think you can tell it, Marie, really what happened, tell it all, no matter what happened?

A. Richard Hobbs told me to light the first match, and I did not know what they were going to do until he put the needle on Sylvia.

Q. Alright, so you heated the match that heated the needle and he scratched her on the stomach?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you stand there and heat further needles?

A. No, sir.

Q. How long did you stay there?

A. Only a minute.

Q. Richard Hobbs did that - that is upstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. How about downstairs with the branding iron. Was Richard Hobbs down there?

A. Not that I can think of. He was at school.

Q. Richard Hobbs was at school?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I thought you said it was not - there was not any school?

A. Not when that thing was lit.

Q. Was that some other time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I am sorry?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It was another day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What day was it this iron was heated and she was branded on the stomach?

A. The week she died.

Q. What day?

A. On Monday.

Q. Was it a school day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was it the day before she died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were not in school?

A. I was in school, it was after school.

Q. Richard Hobbs was not in school?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Yes, sir, he was not in school?

A. He was in school.

Q. Alright, it was after school, after 3:15, you said was the time you got out of school, correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were down in the basement and saw this?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Richard Hobbs was not there?

A. He was at home.

Q. Richard Hobbs was at home, not at school?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because he had not come over to our house that day.

Q. Do you know that for a fact?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Had you been to school?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you know he was not there?

A. I went to my aunt's that Monday and I came back and I can't remember what all happened.

Q. So you have forgotten what happened the day before she died?

A. No, sir.

Q. When did you go to your aunt's?

A. Yes.

Q. The day before she died?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you go?

A. Walked.

Q. Where does she live?

A. On 18th street.

Q. When did you go?

A. On Monday, the day before she died.

Q. What time?

A. Right after school.

Q. After School?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So you did not come home, you went to your aunt's?

A. I came home first and Mom told me to go to my aunt's.

Q. Where was your mother when she told you to go?

A. In the front room.

Q. Did you go directly to your aunt's?

A. Yes.

Q. I thought you said you went to the basement?

A. Mom told me to go downstairs and take the rake.

Q. Alright, had you gotten the rake before you talked to your mother?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You took the rake back downstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. You went to your aunt's after school?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Richard Hobbs at home?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Paula was heating the iron for branding Sylvia on the stomach?

MR. RICE: We object. That was not the testimony.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Is that what you said?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Thereafter, you went upstairs and did not tell anybody and went to your aunt's. Is that your testimony, Marie?

A. No, sir.

Q. What is the fact?

A. I went downstairs and got the rake and then came upstairs and Mom told me to go take the rake back.

Q. That is when you saw the burning paper?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You saw Paula with the iron in her hand?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw Johnny holding her down with a gag in her mouth so she would not scream?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. This was all Monday, from the time you got home from school and before you went to your aunt's, is that what you are telling the jury?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. No one was down there except who you have said?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then where did you go?

A. I went straight over to my aunt's.

Q. How long did you stay?

A. A couple of minutes.

Q. What did you do there?

A. I was talking to her.

Q. What did you say?

A. I said, "Rosie, Mom sent me down here because you called her and told her to send me down here so you can send her up a couple of things".

Q. Marie, did you talk with your mother and Mr. Erbecker yesterday before you started to testify?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you do that?

A. In the room right next to the judge's seat.

Q. Who else was in there?

A. Mr. Hammond.

Q. How long was he there?

A. Only a minute.

Q. How long were you in the room with your mother and Mr. Erbecker?

A. Two minutes, I think it was only two minutes.

Q. Are you sure about that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you sure it was not twenty minutes?

A. I don't know low long it was.

Q. Now, what did you talk about?

A. We talked about if Mom did anything wrong.

Q. Who talked to you about it?

A. Mr. Erbecker.

Q. Anyone else?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did he say?

A. He said, "Did you see your mother mistreat Sylvia any way"?

Q. What did you say?

A. I told him no.

Q. Do - did you see your mother mistreat Sylvia?

A. Only when she was bad.

Q. Only when she was bad. Did you ever see her burn her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. With what?

A. A match.

Q. Why did she do that?

A. I don't know why.

Q. Do you know when she did it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did she do it?

A. Four or five days before she died.

Q. When was Sylvia when she was burned with a match by your mother?

A. In the front room.

Q. What was Sylvia doing?

A. She was sitting down on the floor.

Q. Where did your mother burn her with the match?

A. On her skirt and when Mom lit the skirt she hurried up and put it out and then would do it again and then do it again.

Q. Who put it out?

A. Mom.

Q. And then were hurry up and light it again?

A. Yes.

Q. On her leg?

A. Yes.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Screamed.

Q. How many times did your mother burn her?

A. Two times.

Q. Twice?

A. Twice.

Q. Did you ever see her burn her with a match any other time?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see her burn her with a cigarette?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see her hit her with a belt?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. Once.

Q. What did she hit her with it for?

A. Because Mom said if she did not straighten up she would call her dad.

Q. O.K. And what was she doing when she said she ought to straighten up?

A. Sylvia was not minding.

Q. She was talking to Sylvia about straightening up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, Marie, I will show you what has been marked for the purpose of identification here as State's Exhibit No. 15. Is that the belt your mother beat Sylvia with?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she ever beat you with it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When?

A. She whipped us once when we lived out in Beech Grove.

Q. How often would she beat you with that belt?

A. Once.

Q. One time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she ever beat you children with it when you lived on New York Street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times?

A. Two times.

Q. Twice?

A. Twice.

Q. She only beat you once?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did she beat with the belt?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Twice?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know what Sylvia had done that made her beat her with that belt?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why was Sylvia - where was Sylvia when she got beat?

A. Upstairs, laying across the bed.

Q. Were you up there?

A. Only for a minute.

Q. O.K. Now, do you know how many times your mother hit Sylvia while she was laying across the bed?

A. No, sir.

Q. More than once?

A. No, sir.

Q. What part of Sylvia's body was hit with the belt?

A. Right where she sat down.

Q. Anywhere else?

A. No.

Q. Did you actually see your mother hit Sylvia in the head with anything?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see her throw anything?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see her hold a knife and tell her to come on and fight her?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see her cut her with anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, Marie, let's get back to the time the letter I was branded. You state that you were there and you saw - you lit a match and heated a needle and did not know what Ricky was going to do with it, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you get the match?

A. From Mom.

Q. How many matches did she give you to light?

A. She give me a whole book but I didn't - all I lit was one and I did not know what he was going to do with it.

Q. Your mother gave you the matches?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was she when she gave them to you?

A. In bed.

Q. Why did she give you the matches?

A. Because Richard Hobbs asked for them.

Q. Richard Hobbs asked your mother for matches and she gave them to you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who told you to light the match?

A. Richard Hobbs.

Q. Where was he when he told you that?

A. Sitting in a chair with the needle.

Q. What room?

A. The kitchen.

Q. What did he say before he started to scratch with the needle?

A. He did not tell me anything.

Q. How did you know he wanted you to light the match?

A. He told me to.

Q. What else did he tell you?

A. He said to hold it still.

Q. Did you hold it still?

A. I tried to.

Q. Did you?

A. I was holding a basket and rake in my other hand.

Q. How did you strike it?

A. I had one finger on top of it and had the match in these two fingers and scratched across it.

Q. How did you hold the packet of matches?

A. I held the top, flipped up, down with one finger and had these two fingers to strike against it.

Q. All with one hand?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did not put the basket and rake down?

A. No, sir.

Q. Are you sure about that, Marie?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. But you lit the match and held it steady?

A. I tried to.

Q. What did Richard Hobbs do?

A. Put the needle on there.

Q. Put the needle over the fire?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did he hold it there?

A. Until it got red hot.

Q. It got red hot - did you have to light any more to keep it hot?

A. No, sir.

Q. One was enough?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. He was sitting in a chair?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What room?

A. The kitchen.

Q. Where was Sylvia?

A. Standing up.

Q. With no clothes on?

A. With no clothes on.

Q. Where in the kitchen?

A. In the corner by the basement door.

Q. Who else was there?

A. Paula was sitting in there and Stephanie was gone.

Q. Stephanie was gone and Paula was sitting where?

A. In the kitchen.

Q. What was she doing?

A. Laughing and giggling.

Q. While you were heating the needle?

A. While he was carving on the first top part of the I.

Q. I am sorry. I could not hear that and I am standing close.

A. While he was carving on the first top part of the I.

Q. And you say that is when Paula was giggling and laughing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was Sylvia doing?

A. Screaming in pain.

Q. Screaming in pain?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did your mother do after that?

A. Nothing.

Q. Did she ever come into the kitchen?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, Marie, are you trying to protect your mother with what you are saying?

A. The truth has to be tollen. I have to tell the truth.

Q. You tell the truth and the truth is, your mother started the I and left, didn't? Is that the truth?

A. No, sir. She was not even in there.

Q. Are you sure, Marie?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she tell you to say that yesterday when you talked to her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did Mr. Erbecker?

A. No, sir.

Q. You say she did not come in when Sylvia screamed in pain?

A. She was so weak she had to stay in bed.

Q. Now, who else did you see around there besides Paula laughing and giggling?

A. Jenny.

Q. Where was she?

A. In the kitchen door.

Q. Then Jenny saw what happened?

A. Yes.

Q. Jenny said you lit the matches to heat the needle all the way along. Is that the truth?

A. I only lit that one.

Q. Are you sure?

A. Yes, and Richard Hobbs told me to stop after the first one because he said he would scratch them on the rest of the way.

Q. Did he do that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did he heat them?

A. No, sir.

Q. He scratched the rest without heating the needle?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw him do it?

A. Yes.

Q. You stayed there longer than a minute?

A. I stayed there about two minutes. That was it.

Q. Did you see him scratch the rest of the words on?

A. No, sir.

Q. You just you did. Did you?

A. I did not. I was only there when he got the second word done.

Q. The second word was what?

A. Prostitute.

Q. Did you see him scratch that on there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see any other words scratched on there?

A. It was "I am a prostitute and proud of it".

Q. Did you see all those words on there?

A. I saw them the next day.

Q. Did you see them when they were scratched on there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Marie, I say you did see it. After you heated the needle and he scratched the rest without heating the needle, I want to know what happened. I want the truth. I don't want something else.

A. I saw him put "I am a prostitute" and that was it and I got to see the rest the next day - Wednesday.

Q. What did you see Wednesday?

A. He brung her upstairs and told her to show me.

Q. Who did.

A. Richard Hobbs.

Q. Brought who upstairs?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Where was your mother?

A. She was in the other room.

Q. She was in what room, where was she?

A. In the front room.

Q. What was she doing?

A. Sitting down crocheting.

Q. Did she see the words?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she do or say?

A. She said that is a pretty good job.

Q. Did she say that to Richard Hobbs and to you?

A. She said that to Richard Hobbs.

Q. She said it was a pretty good job?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she say anything else?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, back to the time that you said you saw Paula lighting newspaper - it was newspaper?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did she get them?

A. We took papers and saved newspapers and then Paula put the whole bunch in the sink.

Q. Paula took a whole bunch of newspapers and put them in the sink?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Then she lighted them.

Q. Did it make a pretty good fire?

A. Yes.

Q. The iron was heated?

A. Yes.

Q. Who held the iron while it was getting hot?

A. Paula.

Q. Paula held the iron and she lit the paper?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did she hold it?

A. For about five minutes.

Q. Who else was holding Sylvia down?

A. Shirley was holding Sylvia by the feet.

Q. Shirley was down there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are sure?

A. Yes.

Q. You said a moment ago she was not. Are you sure she was there?

A. I am getting all confused.

Q. Shirley was holding her feet and John was holding her shoulders. Did Johnny put a gag in her mouth?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she tied any way?

A. Her hands were tied right behind her.

Q. Were her feet tied?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What with?

A. A rope.

Q. Do you know who tied her?

A. Johnny.

Q. Johnny tied her hands and her feet?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, where was Richard Hobbs?

A. At home.

Q. He was not down in the basement?

A. No, sir.

Q. O.K. Paula heated the iron?

A. Yes.

Q. Then what did she do with it?

A. Put it on Sylvia.

Q. What part?

A. I think on her chest.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Screamed.

Q. Did you hear her?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you smell anything?

A. No.

Q. You did not smell anything?

A. Only when I went down in the basement to put the rake back.

Q. What did it smell like?

A. It smelled like somebody burning paper.

Q. Was it a strong odor?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, did you see how many times Paula put the iron to Sylvia's stomach?

A. I think she only did it once.

Q. Just once?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you sure?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know how she was holding it in her hand, what part of it?

A. She was holding it down at the end, where she would not get burned.

Q. Can you show the jury?

A. She was holding it like that. (indicating)

Q. You say so she would not get burned?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she keep it in her hand while she put it down to Sylvia's chest?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Sylvia move?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How did she move when the hot iron touched her chest?

A. She tried to roll over but she could not.

Q. She could not roll over - why?

A. So Paula would have to pick it up.

Q. Marie, I could not get that all.

A. So Paula - she was moving so it would probably fall out of Paula's hand and she would stop.

Q. Who kept her from turning over?

A. Johnny.

Q. How did he do it?

A. He held her shoulders.

Q. So she could not roll over and get away from the iron?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, where was Sylvia at this time, where was she laying?

A. On the basement floor.

Q. You go downstairs, don't you, to the basement?

A. Yes.

Q. If you go straight ahead, you run into the wall?

A. Yes.

Q. Which way would you turn to get to where Sylvia was lying on the floor?

A. You would have to turn left.

Q. How far was she from the bottom of the stairs to the left?

A. Two feet.

Q. Now, was she lying on the concrete?

A. On a bunch of clothes.

Q. On a bunch of clothes?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, Marie, I will hand you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 8. That has been identified here and introduced in evidence as the scene of the basement. Do you recognize the sink over in the corner of the basement?

A. Yes.

Q. Take a look at that and indicate where she was laying that is around to the left of the stairway?

A. She was laying right about here.

Q. Step up out of your chair and bring that with you. Now, I'd like you to have your finger indicate where on the basement floor she was laying.

A. Right about here.

Q. Where was her head?

A. Here.

Q. Where were her feet?

A. Right there.

Q. At that time were any clothes there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was this bed-spring there?

A. It was against the wall.

Q. It was against the wall? O.K. You can go back. Now, I will hand you, Marie, what is marked State's Exhibit No. 7 and I will ask you to look at that. The Officers testified this is where he found State's Exhibit No. 11, the iron. Did you ever see who put it down in that sink there?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not see it after they were finished with it?

A. No, sir.

Q. I will hand you what has been marked State's Exhibit No. 10. I will ask you to look at that and see if you recognize where that is?

A. That is our kitchen.

Q. The way it looked about the 26th of October? Take a look and see if that looks familiar, a true and accurate reproduction of the way your kitchen looked that day?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. NEW: The State offers in evidence State's Exhibit No. 10.

MR. ERBECKER: No objection, on the part of Gertrude Baniszewski.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, lets have a recess at this time, about fifteen or twenty minutes. Return to the jury room at 10:45, rather a quarter of 11:00. During the recess, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion on the case till it is finally submitted to you. By agreement of counsel, the jury is permitted to separate. Don't read any newspaper articles that may appear and don't watch anything or listen to anything that may be broadcast about the case. Jury is excused.

JURY EXCUSED.

MR. BOWMAN: Your Honor, before you recess, I have a motion.

THE COURT: Let me get your motion after recess.

MR. BOWMAN: It is very important it be made before recess. I would like to be sure none of the attorneys for any of the defendants -

THE COURT: She is in John Hammond's hands. He is her lawyer. Doctor, this is Gertrude Baniszewski. She says she does not feel well. Take her with the deputy sheriff back to the assistant court reporter's room. Give her an examination and report back to the court. We are in recess.

RECESS.

THE COURT: Are you ready for the jury? Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Next question, Mr. New.

MR. NEW: We have offered an exhibit.

THE COURT: Show Exhibit No. 10 in evidence with no objection.

MR. NEW: We ask permission to have the jury view State's Exhibit No. 10 at this time.

THE COURT: And shown to the jury.

MR. BOWMAN: No objection.

MR. RICE: No objection.

MR. NEDEFF: No objection.

WHEREUPON STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 10 (being a picture of kitchen) WAS ADMITTED IN EVIDENCE,
SHOWN TO THE JURY, AND MADE A PART OF THIS RECORD AS FOLLOWS, TO-WIT:

STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 10 ATTACHED.

Q. Marie, I will hand you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 23. Do you know who that little girl is?

A. Sylvia Likens.

Q. Is Sylvia the girl you have been talking about?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you see how long her hair is?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see anybody cut her hair?

A. Yes.

Q. Who cut her hair?

A. Paula.

Q. Speak up so the ladies and gentlemen can hear you. When did Paula cut her hair?

A. It was in the last week of September.

Q. Where did she do that?

A. In the kitchen.

Q. Do you remember what happened when she cut it?

A. Paula made it even and Sylvia said, "Could I have a piece of my hair"?, and Paula would not let her have it.

Q. Paula would not even let her have a piece of the hair she cut off?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What happened?

A. Sylvia started crying.

Q. What did Paula cut her hair with?

A. A pair of scissors.

Q. In the kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Sylvia try to get away from her?

A. No.

Q. Where was she?

A. Standing by Paula.

Q. Do you know why she cut her hair?

A. Sylvia said she was glad to get her hair cut so she could keep it off her neck.

Q. Did Sylvia ask her to cut it?

A. No.

Q. Do you know whose idea it was to cut her hair?

A. No.

Q. Who was there when it was cut?

A. Jenny, Stephanie -

Q. Anybody else?

A. No.

Q. Did anybody try to keep her from cutting it?

A. No.

Q. What did she say?

A. Paula said she thought she looked better with her hair cut.

Q. Sylvia did not want her to cut it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Marie, I will hand you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 5. Take a look at that. That is a note, a piece of paper that has been introduced in evidence. Do you know when Sylvia wrote that?

A. It was during the summer time and Mom made her sit down and write it?

Q. Where did she make her sit down and write it?

A. In the dining room.

Q. Did Sylvia do that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who told her what to say?

A. Nobody.

Q. Did she just write it herself?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was your mother when she was writing it?

A. Sitting in a chair by Sylvia.

Q. Right beside Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you hear anything your mother might have said to Sylvia when she write the note?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you there all the time she was writing it?

A. Yes.

Q. Where were you?

A. Sitting on the other end of the table.

Q. Marie, I am sorry. If you will just speak up, Marie, I think it might help. It is very difficult for me to hear.

A. What was your question, please?

Q. Was anyone else there when Sylvia wrote the note?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who else?

A. Stephanie.

Q. Who else?

A. Paula.

Q. Do you remember anybody else?

A. Johnny.

Q. Did Sylvia write the whole note?

A. Yes.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Mom folded it up and put it in the back of the tablet.

Q. Did you say she folded it and put it in the back of the tablet?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see that note again?

A. No, sir.

Q. Are you sure it was summer time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you fix that time?

A. It was when Darlene MacGuire introduced her to Mom.

Q. When Darlene MacGuire introduced who to your Mom?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Explain that.

A. One day she was playing with Jenny and Sylvia. We did not even know them then. Darlene MacGuire brought Sylvia into our house and introduced Sylvia to my Mom.

Q. Was that the same day she wrote the note?

A. No, sir.

Q. Later?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How much later was it?

A. Three or four weeks.

Q. Three or four before what?

A. Before she stayed with us.

Q. Who stayed with you?

A. Sylvia and Jenny.

Q. What I am trying to get at is when Sylvia wrote that note. It could not have been three or four weeks before she stayed with you.

A. It was before Mom went out to got us ready for school. It was the week before school started.

Q. You are sure of that now?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, I will hand you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 17, another note. Did you see Sylvia write that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Have you ever seen it before?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see this State's Exhibit No. 5 after your mother folded it and put it by the tablet?

A. Not after. Mom said she was going to mail it to their father.

Q. Your Mom said she was going to mail it to whose father?

A. Sylvia and Jenny's.

Q. You see about the middle of the page it says "and they also put on my stomach, I am a prostitute and proud of it"? Just about the middle of the page, read that there, Marie.

A. I did not know she put it down there.

Q. Do you see it there now?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you still want to say that was in the summer time?

A. Yes, it was in the summer time. I thought she wrote it. She wrote three or four letters like that.

Q. I see. Now, we have, Marie, a statement in evidence marked State's Exhibit No. 18, which is signed by Richard Hobbs. The jury has seen his statement, in which he says, "I branded her with the top part of S on her chest". That is Richard Hobbs. You testified to this jury that Paula was the one who held the hot iron in her hand.

A. That is what I saw.

Q. Is Richard mistaken or are you mistaken?

A. I guess I am mistaken.

Q. Do you want to think about it a minute and tell the jury what actually happened?

A. Richard Hobbs really done it.

Q. You did not mean to tell the jury Paula did?

A. I thought Paula did it. I am not thinking right.

Q. Then Richard Hobbs was down in the basement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Richard with that iron in his hand, marked State's Exhibit 11?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never saw Richard actually have it in his hand?

A. No, sir.

Q. Back to Paula, did you really see her hold it in her hand?

A. I saw it when I first came down.

Q. Did you see her actually heating it over the burned paper?

A. No, sir, I thought Paula was the one that did it. Paula was the one that did hold it over the fire.

Q. Are you sure of that?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you trying to tell the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you trying to protect anybody that is charged here with a crime?

A. No, sir.

Q. You are trying to tell the jury what you actually remember?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You do honestly remember Paula holding the iron in her hand, heating it over the paper?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she do with it?

A. Handed it to Richard.

Q. Did he take it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did he do?

A. Placed it on her stomach.

Q. On whose?

A. On Sylvia's.

Q. It was actually Richard that put the brand on Sylvia's stomach?

A. Yes.

Q. Once or twice.

A. I don't know.

Q. Do you remember any events about when Richard was putting it on Sylvia's stomach?

A. No, sir.

Q. You told the jury Sylvia was trying to roll over.

A. She tried to.

Q. She could not roll over because John was holding her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You said John put a gag in her mouth. Is that actually the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now this same Exhibit No. 18 which Richard Hobbs signed said that "Gertie told me she was going to get rid of Sylvia the night before she died". Do you remember that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did Gertie say or your mother say?

A. She said, "Sylvia, I am going to put you in the center".

Q. In the center?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who did she say that to?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Do you remember when she said it?

A. She said it the night before she died.

Q. Where was Sylvia?

A. Sitting right in front of her.

Q. Sitting in front of her. What part of the house?

A. The front room.

Q. Did Sylvia have any marks on her at the time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where were the marks?

A. On her face.

Q. What kind of marks were they? Would you describe them?

A. Sores.

Q. Do you know who put them there?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never saw anyone put marks on her face?

A. I remember Paula slapping her.

Q. Did you see anybody scald her, burn her on the face?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never did? Did you see anybody scald her on her neck?

A. I remember seeing somebody put a cigarette out on her neck. I could not see their face.

Q. Where was this?

A. In the front room.

Q. Who was in the room when somebody put a cigarette out on her face?

A. Richard Hobbs, Randy Lepper, Anna Siscoe, Mike Monroe, Paula, Johnny, Jenny, Stephanie and Shirley and Jimmy. I was holding little Denny.

Q. Now, you said yesterday several things from the witness stand, Marie, and you have said something different today. Are you telling the truth today?

A. I am telling the truth today.

Q. Alright now, Marie, you said Sylvia ate breakfast with you, ate supper with the day before she died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you sure about that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, did you still see marks on her face the day before she died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was Sylvia complaining about any of her injuries or anything at all the day before she died?

A. She said her face hurt real bad.

Q. Who did she say that to?

A. Mom.

Q. What did your mother say?

A. She said, "I can't do anything about it".

Q. Did she do anything about it?

A. Put alcohol on them.

Q. On what?

A. Her face and body.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Screamed because it hurt.

Q. Did you see her put alcohol on Sylvia's body?

A. Yes.

Q. You say Sylvia screamed because it hurt?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you see your mother do that?

A. The day before she died.

Q. Where was Sylvia?

A. Upstairs in the kitchen.

Q. Where was she standing or laying when your mother put alcohol on her body?

A. Standing right by the refrigerator.

Q. Standing up?

A. Standing up.

Q. What did your mother put alcohol on her body with?

A. A piece of cotton.

Q. Did Sylvia have clothes on?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How did your mother put it on her body if she had clothes on?

A. We had a blanket down there and wrapped Sylvia up on part of her body and had the boys out and Jimmy accidentally walked in and we had to hurry up and cover her up - cover her back up so Jimmy could not see her.

Q. She had a blanket on?

A. She had clothes on and Mom couldn't get to her back and things and she took her blouse off and we had the blanket over her.

Q. Did she have underclothing under the blouse?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she have?

A. Some regular underclothes.

Q. Did she take them off so your mother could put alcohol on her sores?

A. No, sir.

Q. She left them on?

A. Yes.

Q. You said she had sores on her back?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see them?

A. I saw quite a few of them.

Q. What did they look like?

A. Awful.

Q. Can you describe how big they were?

A. They were about as big as my thumb.

Q. How many of these did you see?

A. Three or four.

Q. As big as your thumb?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see any skin that had been removed or scalded off?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many splotches that you saw?

A. Her whole leg had the skin peeled off.

Q. How about her back?

A. It looked like sunburn.

Q. Do you know how she got that?

A. I think by being thrown in a hot tub of water.

Q. Who did that?

A. Richard Hobbs and Paula.

Q. When?

A. They did it to her quite a few times.

Q. Did you see it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did they do it?

A. Upstairs, in the bathroom.

Q. Are you sure Paula and your mother didn't do it?

A. She was in on it too.

Q. What did your mother do?

A. Took some - a box of soap and poured it all over her.

Q. You mean powdered detergent used for dishes?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it trend soap?

A. Yes.

Q. Your mother poured soap on Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was Sylvia?

A. In a hot tub of water.

Q. She used detergent soap, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she pour it on Sylvia before they put her in the tub or after?

A. After.

Q. Where was the tub?

A. Upstairs in the bathroom.

Q. Were you there?

A. I was going down stairs to see what was wrong with little Denny and I saw them put her in there.

Q. Was she tied?

A. Yes.

Q. Where?

A. Her arms were tied behind her and her legs were tied together.

Q. Who lifted her in the tub?

A. Paula and Richard.

Q. What was your mother doing?

A. Getting the soap.

Q. Was she standing there in the bathroom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. O.K. What did Sylvia do when she got dumped in the hot tub?

A. Tried to scream but they had a piece of cloth in her mouth.

Q. Did you see that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you see her in the tub?

A. Five minutes.

Q. O.K. How long was that before you saw the skin peeled off her back and neck?

A. It was in September.

Q. In September?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you know it was that month?

A. Because Mom was - either Mom or Paula was complaining she smelt to bad.

Q. Smelled bad?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she?

A. She would not take care of her body.

Q. Who told you that?

A. That is what I heard.

Q. Who told you that?

A. I can't remember.

Q. She would not take care of her body?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So they put her in a hot tub and put detergent soap on her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You said yesterday, Marie, that Sylvia had never slept down in the basement. That was not true, was it?

A. She slept upstairs and stayed down in the basement during the daytime.

Q. She stayed down there during the nighttime, too, didn't she?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When you said that yesterday, it was not true, was it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know how long she stayed down in the basement before she died?

A. Two or three days.

Q. She had been down in the basement before that?

A. No sir, only to clean it up.

Q. Only to clean it up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know who made her stay down in the basement?

A. Mom.

Q. Did you hear her?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she say to her?

A. She said, "Sylvia, get down to the basement. I will not allow you to be in the same room where my daughters are".

Q. Did she say anything else?

A. No.

Q. Do you know why she was mad at Sylvia?

A. No.

Q. Did she ever tell you why she was mad at Sylvia?

A. No.

Q. Did she ever tell Sylvia why she was mad?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia do anything to your mother to cause her to make her stay in the basement?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia do anything to you kids?

A. She threw Jimmy down once flat on his back and Sylvia knew Jimmy had kidney trouble.

Q. When was that?

A. One day we went to the park in September.

Q. In September before school started?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia do anything else to make your mother do these things to her?

A. She slapped me once in the face and I hit her back on the arm.

Q. Did you ever do anything else to her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia do anything to Paula to make her do these things?

A. All I remember is Sylvia called Mom a real bad name and Paula got mad and hit her and broke her wrist.

Q. Did you actually hear Sylvia call your mother a name?

A. No, sir.

Q. Who told you she did?

A. Paula.

Q. Paula said she had called her mother a name?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did not hear her do it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Paula broke her wrist?

A. Yes sir, I was there when Paula hitted her.

Q. Where did she hit Sylvia?

A. In the jaw.

Q. Did she hit her hard?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Screamed and cried.

Q. O.K. Did she fall down?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, yesterday you said on Saturday before Sylvia died you walked over to Dr. Lindenborg's office and got a prescription?

A. Yes, I got a prescription for Mom.

Q. That was not true, was it?

A. I did. I went down and got a prescription for Mom.

Q. Dr. Lindenborg's office is where?

A. I can't remember. I can't tell you the name of the street.

Q. How did you get there?

A. I walked.

Q. How did you go when you went?

A. I went towards my aunt's

Q. Which way is that?

A. She lives on 18th Street. I think West 18th Street. I am not too sure. I started out towards my aunt's and as soon as I got to the corner of 18th Street I had to turn and go straight.

Q. Which way did you turn?

A. I turned left.

Q. Do you know what street it was on?

A. No, sir.

Q. How far did you walk?

A. Around about a half mile.

Q. A half mile. You live at New York and Denny?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know now where Dr. Lindenborg's office was?

A. No, sir.

Q. You don't?

A. I know I had to walk straight as soon as I reached the corner of 18th street.

Q. Dr. Lindenborg told the jury his office is at 3016 North Arlington. Did you walk there from New York and Denny to get a prescription?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was Saturday before Sylvia died?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you get the prescription?

A. Yes.

Q. Who gave it to you?

A. The nurse.

Q. What was it? How was it wrapped?

A. It was in a box. Randy Lepper let me use his bike.

Q. Did you ride the bike or walk?

A. I rode the bike half way there and got tired of riding and I walked the bike the rest of the way and as soon as I got to the corner of 18th street I said I had better hurry up and ride back home. There was a rubber band around the prescription.

Q. You are sure this is not some other time you are thinking about, Marie?

A. No, sir.

Q. How do you know it was the Saturday before?

A. Because as soon as I got home I ate supper and watched television and I went to bed and Mom said the next day is Sunday and you had better go get your things out for Sunday School.

Q. Marie, the doctor said there was no transaction on Saturday, the 23rd, there was no card at all for the 23rd of October. That is the Saturday before Sylvia died. Are you sure you are not mistaken?

A. I am mistaken. It was two weeks before she died.

Q. O.K. Now, Marie, were you home when the police came to your home after Sylvia died?

A. We were - just me and Jenny were walking down the street and saw the police car in front of the house. Jenny said, "Hurry up and see what happened".

Q. Are you talking about Sylvia's sister?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where had you been?

A. Out raking leaves.

Q. Do you know where?

A. I know where the house is. I don't remember what street it is.

Q. Did you do that for money?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you get paid that day?

A. She paid us the day before.

Q. Do you know how long it had been you were out raking leaves?

A. About an hour. Ever since we came home from school.

Q. Did you come straight home from school the day Sylvia died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time did you get home approximately?

A. 3:30.

Q. What did you do when you got home?

A. Changed clothes and went downstairs and got the rake and basket.

Q. Did you go to the basement?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did you see?

A. Sylvia.

Q. What was she doing?

A. Laying on the floor.

Q. Can you tell the jury what you saw her doing, if anything?

A. She was just laying there.

Q. On the floor?

A. Yes, she was still alive, breathing.

Q. Are you sure?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because I went over and said "Hi".

Q. Did you say "Hi" to Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Was anyone else down there when you said that?

A. Jenny.

Q. What did you see?

A. The basement was torn up.

Q. Yes?

A. And the rake was on the floor.

Q. Yes.

A. I went over to pick the rake up and I said "Hi" to Sylvia and she tried to say "Hi" back.

Q. Did she?

A. She did not have the energy to.

Q. What sort of sound did she make?

A. She waved her hand.

Q. To you?

A. Yes.

Q. Was her head on the floor?

A. She had to lay her head down. Her head was still on the floor.

Q. Was she actually laying on the floor?

A. Yes.

Q. Was anything under her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How was she dressed?

A. She had a pair of pants on.

Q. Anything else?

A. And a blouse.

Q. A blouse?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What kind of pants did she have on?

A. I think they were either white or pink.

Q. Did you hear Sylvia make any other sound?

A. She was moaning.

Q. She was moaning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was that a sort of constant moan or just occasionally?

A. Constant.

Q. Did you say anything to your mother about Sylvia lying in the basement moaning?

A. I said. "Mom, she looked awful".

Q. Mom, she looks awful?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said, "I can't help that".

Q. Did she say anything else?

A. No.

Q. Did she do anything to help her?

A. Not that I can think of now.

Q. Did you see anyone else in the basement the day she died except Jenny?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see any marks on Sylvia when she was laying on the floor groaning?

A. Yes.

Q. What?

A. Sores.

Q. Where were they?

A. All over her body.

Q. Did you see any on her face?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see any blood?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was it?

A. It was on her leg.

Q. On her leg. Was it running from a sore?

A. It was dried.

Q. Do you know about where that sore was?

A. No.

Q. Was it around the knee?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anyone put salt on that sore?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who did you see do that?

A. Paula.

Q. Tell the jury what you saw?

A. Paula put salt on it and rubbed it in. Sylvia told her to leave it alone.

Q. Did she do that, leave her alone?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times did you see Paula putting salt on an open wound?

A. Two or three times.

Q. Did you see anyone else doing that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did Sylvia make any sounds or noise when Paula put salt on the wound?

A. She gritted her teeth because it hurted so bad. Paula said it would make her sore better.

Q. I am sorry?

THE COURT: Read it back.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST ANSWER.

Q. Now, Marie, did you ever see Sylvia drink any urine?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anyone put urine in a cup for Sylvia to drink?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia ask - anyone ask her to eat dirt or filth out of a baby's diaper?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never saw that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did Sylvia have a special cup, one of her own?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did it look like?

A. It was a tin cup.

Q. She was supposed to drink out of that and nothing else.

A. Yes.

Q. Was that her own cup?

A. Yes.

Q. Who told her just to drink out of that?

A. We all had our own special cup.

Q. Did you have one?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did it look like?

A. It was plastic and it was blue.

Q. Did anyone ever urinate in that cup that you know of?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anyone throw a coke bottle at Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anybody take Sylvia and flip her over their head or against the wall?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who did that?

A. Coy.

Q. How many times did he flip her over his head?

A. Two times.

Q. Where was this?

A. Upstairs.

Q. Tell the jury how he did it?

A. He got hold of her arms with both hands and had her stand a certain way and flipped her on the hard floor.

Q. Come around here, please. Would you indicate to the to jury how he had Sylvia stand. If I am Sylvia, tell me how to stand.

A. He told her to relax and stand like this and he got hold of her arms, this arm, with both hands.

Q. Was he in front of her or behind?

A. In front.

Q. Did she have her hands at her sides?

A. One of his hands was right here and other like this and he told her to relax and threw her over his shoulder.

Q. Did he ask her to hold her hands out or at her side?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know how her hands were? Take hold of me like he did Sylvia.

A. He had hold of her like this and she was like this and he threw her over.

Q. Did he throw her backwards over his head? Take hold of me like he took hold of Sylvia.

A. He threw her flat on her back.

Q. That was over his head?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. He picked her up and flipped her over his head flat on her back?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Show the jury what part of her body he took hold of, what part of her arm?

A. Right up here, one hand was right here and the other right here.

Q. You are indicating around the wrist and around the upper arm. Did he do that one arm and flip her?

A. He used both his hands and she only handed him one of her hands.

Q. What did Sylvia do when she hit the floor?

A. Screamed.

Q. Did she get up by herself?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did he do that twice at the same time?

A. He did it three or four times.

Q. The same day?

A. He did it three times one day and four times the next.

Q. Did you see him do it different days?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Sylvia do this voluntarily or did he do it against her will?

A. He did it against her will.

Q. Did you ever see anyone else flip Sylvia?

A. Paula and Johnny.

Q. How did they flip her?

A. They had the same grip and everything. They did the same thing.

Q. Was your mother ever present when these people were flipping Sylvia down on her back on the floor?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she do, if anything?

A. She just sit there and crochet.

Q. Crochet?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she ever try to help Sylvia?

A. Just went upstairs and told me and Jenny to bring down the mattress.

Q. Did you do that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see your mother try to stop either Coy Hubbard or John Baniszewski or Paula Baniszewski when they were flipping this girl?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you know whether or not Sylvia was allowed to use the toilet?

A. Paula said she could not.

Q. Do you know why?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did Sylvia ever wet the bed because of that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You don't know why they would not let her use the toilet?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was she allowed to drink water?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was she allowed to have food out of the ice box or anywhere else?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Any time she wanted it?

A. She ate when we ate, at the same meals we ate.

Q. Clear up to when she died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia's hands tied in the air?

A. Yes, our bedroom, on the wall round about four feet from the ground - up from the floor - and Johnny would take Sylvia and have her hands tied behind her and stretch her arms in back of her up till he could slip it over the nail up on the wall.

Q. Did he leave her there?

A. No, he took her down.

Q. What did he do while she was tied with her hands above her head?

A. Then he took a long piece of rope and tied it around the other rope and than he had her on our bed and had the thing right under -

Q. What thing?

A. Under the top part of the hand. It was something like a - it was on a roll-a-way bed, something like you would use on a hose.

Q. Metal?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Under her hands?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he do?

A. Pulled on the rope till it put pressure on her head and she would say, "Stop it, Johnny" and Johnny would stop.

Q. Did he do anything else to her while she was tied up?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anybody pick her up and ram her head against the wall?

A. I think it was Anna Siscoe.

Q. Did you see Anna Siscoe do anything like that?

A. I remember seeing her beat the tar out of her.

Q. When was that?

A. A couple of weeks before she died.

Q. Are you sure that was not back in September?

A. It was the last week of September.

Q. The last week of September?

A. It was on Thursday.

Q. Was your mother there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she try to stop it, the fight?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever hear your mother say, "Let them alone, it is their fight" when somebody was beating on Sylvia?

A. She said she was old enough to fight her own battles and told Sylvia to get up and fight.

Q. Did Sylvia do that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How did she fight?

A. She tried to hit Anna Siscoe and Anna Siscoe raised her foot up and hit her in the stomach and she had a bloody nose and a bloody mouth.

Q. Your mother still said "Let them alone, it is their fight"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did your mother do anything at that time?

A. Doctored her up and put band aids on her with merthiolate.

Q. Where did she put those?

A. Where she had cuts and scratches where Anna Siscoe had hit her.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Thanked Mom for doctoring her.

Q. Thanked her for doctoring her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see any sores running pus from Sylvia's head?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What part of the head was it? Show the jury on your own head.

A. It was right up in here, right down here.

Q. When did you see those?

A. On Thursday, a week before she died.

Q. Do you know what caused those?

A. I think either hitting on the head or else somebody scratching her.

Q. Did they become infected?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did your mother ever treat those?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she put on them?

A. First she cleaned them out with alcohol and put merthiolate and bandages on them.

Q. Did you ever go to Sunday School or church while Sylvia was living there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you go?

A. Grace Memorial Baptist Church.

Q. Did you go with Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Jenny?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And of our sisters or brothers?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How did you get there?

A. On the bus.

Q. A church bus?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, would you know how often Sylvia went to Sunday School and church?

A. She went every time we went, only when Mom would not let her.

Q. Do you know when that happened?

A. When Mom needed the house cleaned up because somebody was going to come over.

Q. That would be Sunday?

A. Yes.

Q. She would not let Sylvia go to church or Sunday School?

A. She went to church at night after she got done with the housework.

Q. Do you ever remember Sylvia taking food at church and eating it and getting in trouble about it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever remember the time you went to Grace Memorial Baptist Church when they had little sandwiches or something to drink?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Sylvia eat those?

A. Yes.

Q. Did anyone ever tell your mother Sylvia had eaten or drunk any of these things?

A. Once she told Mom she was saved and Paula and Mom did not think she was and she ate the Lord's Supper with us.

Q. When was that?

A. At church.

Q. Sylvia said that on her own?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember when she told Paula and Mrs. Baniszewski she had been saved?

A. The third week she stayed with us.

Q. In July, do you think?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see her actually go forward at the church?

A. Yes.

Q. Who went with her?

A. Jenny and I.

Q. Did she tell Mrs. Baniszewski about that?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said really make sure you are saved and God is with you first.

Q. She said you should really make sure?

A. Yes.

Q. What did Sylvia say?

A. She said, "O.K. I will try to be baptized".

Q. Did she say anything else?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did your mother say anything else about her being saved?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was that after you saw Sylvia go forward at church?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Sylvia have a Bible?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Sylvia dress up nice and clean?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she keep her clothes clean?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Marie, I will hand you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 26 and ask you to look at that and see if that is a true and accurate reproduction of Jenny, Sylvia and her friends. Do you recognize them there?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. NEW: The State offers in evidence State's Exhibit No. 26.

MR. ERBECKER: No objection.

MR. NEDEFF: No objection.

MR. RICE: We object on the grounds it is irrelevant and immaterial.

MR. BOWMAN: I don't see the relevancy. I object to burdening the record.

THE COURT: May I see it? Overruled for the reasons assigned. Show Exhibit No. 26 in evidence.

MR. NEW: At this time I would like to have permission to have the jury view the exhibit, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And shown to the jury.

WHEREUPON STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 26 (being a picture of Sylvia and friends) WAS ADMITTED IN EVIDENCE,
SHOWN TO THE JURY, AND MADE A PART OF THIS RECORD AS FOLLOWS, TO-WIT:

STATE'S EXHIBIT NO. 26 ATTACHED.

Q. Marie, did you ever see anyone push Sylvia down the stairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did you see do that?

A. Paula and Johnny and Richard Hobbs.

Q. What stairs?

A. The stairs leading up to our bedroom.

Q. In other words, the ones that go to the three bedrooms upstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Tell the jury when you saw them do that?

A. They did it quite a few times.

Q. How would they do that?

A. Get her at the top of the stairs and give her a great big push and she would go rolling downstairs and they would pick her up.

Q. Would all three be doing it at that time?

A. No, sir.

Q. They would do it separate times by themselves?

A. Yes.

Q. What did Sylvia - did Sylvia know they were going to push her?

A. I don't know.

Q. Were they facing her?

A. She was facing away.

Q. She was starting to walk down when they would shove her?

A. She just stood up there.

Q. Did they tell her to stand there before they pushed her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia when she hit the bottom of the stairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she ever unable to get up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long would she lay there?

A. About a minute.

Q. Would she get up by herself?

A. Paula and Richard would help her.

Q. They would help her get up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know if they said anything to her?

A. They said, "Get up and do it again".

Q. Did they take her back upstairs?

A. They really said, "Get up and try to fall again".

Q. How often would you see somebody push Sylvia down the stairs?

A. They all did it once.

Q. They all did it one time?

A. No, they did it separate days.

Q. Did you see any of those three do it more than once?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you say you went to school on the 26th of October, the day Sylvia died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you sure about that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did your mother have a black eye that day?

A. I did not see her face very well. She had a bruise around her eye.

Q. Do you know how she got it?

A. No sir.

Q. Now, when you got home from school on that Tuesday what was your mother doing?

A. She was folding up clothes.

Q. She was not in bed?

A. She was in bed in the afternoon when I came home.

Q. Was she folding clothes or in bed?

A. In the afternoon she was in bed. She got up and was sitting down sorting out socks.

Q. How long did you see her in bed?

A. She was in bed all afternoon.

Q. All afternoon from what time on?

A. From the time we came home for lunch - that was 11:30 - until 2:00 o'clock.

Q. Where did you eat lunch?

A. At home in the kitchen.

Q. Did somebody fix lunch for you?

A. We came home and if Mom did not have it halfway fixed we finished it.

Q. Did Mom have it half way fixed?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she fix?

A. Soup and sandwiches and milk.

Q. We are talking about Tuesday, the day Sylvia died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you eat at?

A. Home.

Q. Did Jenny come home from school?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she eat there?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she eat at the table in the kitchen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that the table in the kitchen we have shown in the picture?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you all sit down and eat at once?

A. Yes.

Q. Who all sat down at the table and ate soup and sandwiches?

A. Stephanie would eat lunch at school. Me and Shirley and Jimmy and Johnny and Jenny and Sylvia.

Q. She ate her lunch?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You all sat there at one time?

A. Yes.

Q. At one table?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Alright, now, where was your mother while you were eating?

A. She always ate in the front room where she could watch T.V.

Q. She did not eat with you in the kitchen?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she do that Tuesday, the day Sylvia died?

A. Yes.

Q. She watched television while she ate lunch?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did she sit?

A. On the couch.

Q. She was not asleep then?

A. No.

Q. She was not in bed?

A. She was in bed but she made a little bed out of the couch and she sat up there and watched T.V.

Q. Alright, and you went on back to school?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was she still watching T.V.?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was she still in the living room?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was Sylvia?

A. She was downstairs.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because that is where Mom always sends her after she ate.

Q. Did she send her down there the day she died?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you hear her do that?

A. I saw Sylvia down there and I asked who sent her down there and she said my Mom.

Q. Who got up from the table first from lunch the day she died, you or Sylvia?

A. I got up first.

Q. You - did you see Sylvia eating?

A. Yes.

Q. How did she eat soup?

A. She either drank out of a cup or out of a bowl.

Q. How did you eat on Tuesday?

A. I drank out of a bowl.

Q. How did Sylvia eat?

A. Out of a bowl.

Q. Did she have a spoon or utensil?

A. She had a spoon.

Q. Did you see anyone else?

A. Shirley and Jenny and I was feeding Denny and Johnny drank out of a cup, the same as I did.

Q. How many spoons did you see altogether?

A. Four spoons.

Q. Do you see a stove in that room, a cook stove?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you have one?

A. No, sir, we had a hotplate.

Q. Where was it?

A. It was always on the table and we had an electric skillet.

Q. On the table in the picture we just showed the jury?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the electric skillet get broken?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long had it been broken when she died?

A. The skillet worked but the handle was broken.

Q. It still got hot?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you heat the soup?

A. In the electric skillet. Two legs of the electric skillet was broke up and we put the ashtray underneath it and it still worked.

Q. Now then, your mother told this jury Paula and Stephanie were down firing the furnace in the early morning of Tuesday, October 26 at 1:00 o'clock in the morning. Did you know Paula and Stephanie were down in the basement?

A. I knew they were putting more coal in it.

Q. How did you know that?

A. Because I always went down - I always kissed Paula good-by.

Q. At 1:00 o'clock in the morning?

A. No, sir, I always kissed Paula and Paula was down there when we had to go to school and I went down and she had - Mom had told her to go downstairs and put more coal in the furnace.

Q. Where were you?

A. Upstairs.

Q. Where was your mother?

A. In the front room.

Q. If she was downstairs in the front room and you were upstairs, how did you hear her tell Paula to go down and put coal in the furnace?

A. I was on the way downstairs.

Q. At 1:00 o'clock in the morning?

A. No.

Q. I am talking about 1:00 o'clock in the morning.

A. I heard Mom tell her to go down - she woke Stephanie up and Paula - and she told them to go down and put coal in the furnace.

Q. Now, Marie, that did not happen. You were asleep on the night before Sylvia died and actually you did not hear anybody up at 1:00 o'clock?

A. I heard them up. I woke up a minute to use the rest room and I went back to bed.

Q. What did you hear?

A. I heard Paula and Mom walk around. Stephanie was reading.

Q. Where was Stephanie?

A. At the kitchen table doing homework.

Q. Did you hear loud noises, voices, when you woke up?

A. No, sir.

Q. You heard your mother and Paula walking around. What else did you hear?

A. Paula getting ready to go to work.

Q. At 1:00 o'clock?

A. She always got up early.

Q. That early?

A. Our clock did not work so good. If Paula got up early, she would get stuff laid out and then get ready.

Q. Marie, did you ever hear Sylvia complain of any pain or any wounds she might have had, any kind complaints?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said, "My arm and my knees are hurting. What shall I do with it"? Mom told her to soak it.

Q. Soak it?

A. Yes.

Q. In what?

A. Warm water.

Q. Did you ever hear her complain about any other pain she had?

A. She said her back hurt from bending over too much the other day.

Q. Who said that?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Did you say Coy Hubbard flipped her over his head and she hit on her back?

A. Yes, she was downstairs folding up clothes for Mom.

Q. Was that after she got flipped over Coy's head?

A. Yes.

Q. She said her back hurt?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever hear Sylvia complain about any other pain or wounds of any kind?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Do you know when she bit her lip in two?

A. No.

Q. Did you know she did?

A. Mom showed me the place right inside her mouth where she bit.

Q. Not the front of her mouth?

A. It was at the side of her mouth.

Q. Why did your mother show you that sort of thing?

A. She thought I might have some bandages after I skinned my knee up, after I skinned my leg up coming home from church. I had band aids and after I busted the vein and mother asked if I had any more left. I said yes and I brung some downstairs and Mom fixed her up.

Q. Did your Mom tell you how she got the hole inside her month?

A. No.

Q. Did Sylvia say how she got it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you put anything on it?

A. No, all Mom did put was a bandage on it.

Q. Inside?

A. No, it showed up around the outside.

Q. Did it go clear through?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did it look like?

A. It was awful.

Q. Was it bleeding?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was it a cut or bruise?

A. Like a real bad fingernail cut.

Q. On her face?

A. Yes.

Q. Did your mother tell you how it got on there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. How deep was it?

A. It was not so deep.

Q. Could you see the flesh underneath it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now before Sylvia died, Marie, did you ever tell anyone your mother, Paula, Richard Hobbs, Coy Hubbard, your brother John were doing these things to her that you have told the jury they were doing?

A. Pardon?

Q. Before Sylvia died, did you ever tell anyone, your mother, Paula, Richard Hobbs, Coy Hubbard, your brother John were doing these things to her that you have told the jury they were doing?

A. No, they did not tell me anything. I heard her scream.

Q. Did you tell anybody you heard her scream?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you tell anybody you had seem them branding her with an iron?

A. No.

Q. Did you tell anybody they were heating needles and scratched words on her stomach?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you tell anybody they were pushing her downstairs?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you tell anybody they were flipping her over their head?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you tell anybody at school?

A. No.

Q. Did you tell anybody at the grocery store?

A. No, sir.

Q. At the neighbors?

A. No, sir.

Q. The people at Sunday School?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did people ever come in and out of the house while Sylvia was there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Reverend Roy Julian come there?

A. Yes.

Q. Did anyone ever tell him what they were doing to Sylvia?

A. No.

Q. Did Gertrude ever tear Sylvia's clothes?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia with her clothes torn?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know who did it?

A. It was Paula and Johnny.

Q. Did you see them do it?

A. I saw them tear her clothes off one day.

Q. Why did they do it?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did she say anything when they tore her clothes off?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. She ran and hid.

Q. Did they tear all her clothes off?

A. She ran upstairs. They tore off the back of her blouse and nearly tore her skirt off her.

Q. Where was this when they did this?

A. In the front room.

Q. What had Sylvia done just before they ripped her clothes, her blouse?

A. I do not know.

Q. Were you there?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw it?

A. I saw them tear the back of her blouse off.

Q. Did you see Sylvia do anything to them before they did it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Who grabbed her blouse?

A. Johnny grabbed her by the collar and Paula grabbed - there was a little hole in her skirt and Paula tore her skirt off first and Johnny tore her blouse off.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, let me tell you again what I have to tell you every time you leave the courtroom. By agreement of counsel and with the consent of the State and defendants made in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. We will return at 1:30 this afternoon, 1:30 today. During this recess for lunch, do me talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express an opinion on the case till it is finally submitted to you. Do not read any newspaper articles that may appear about this case and don't watch anything or listen to anything that may be broadcast about the case. Court will remain in session and the jury and alternate jurors are excused till 1:30 today.

JURY EXCUSED.

RECESS.

1:30 P.M. AND THE TRIAL OF THIS CAUSE WAS RESUMED.

THE COURT: Are you ready for the jury?

MR. NEW: We are ready.

MR. RICE: We are ready.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Next question, Mr. Prosecutor.

MARIE BANISZEWSKI ON THE STAND.

CROSS EXAMINATION RESUMED,
QUESTIONS BY MR. LEROY NEW,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. Marie, did your mother ever lock Sylvia in her room that you recall?

A. Not that I can remember of. I have not seen her do it.

Q. You testified yesterday that Sylvia slept up in the bedroom with you, in the same room you did before she went the basement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you know anyone who ever tied her hands and feet and had Sylvia sleep that way all night?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who did that?

A. Johnny and Paula.

Q. Do you know when they did that, with reference to when Sylvia died?

A. Two or three days before she died.

Q. Did you know why they did it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did they say anything to Sylvia when they did it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, you said earlier this morning, Marie, that Sylvia was not allowed to use the toilet and that she did wet the bed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was she ever punished for wetting the bed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who punished her?

A. Paula and Mom.

Q. How did they do that?

A. They whipped her.

Q. How often did they do that after she wet the bed after she was not allowed to use the toilet?

A. Two or three times.

Q. Do you know what they did for punishment?

A. No, sir.

Q. I believe you testified you went out to rake leaves and at the time you left Sylvia was still alive?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know just about what time that was, Marie?

A. We left at a quarter of 4:00.

Q. Who is we?

A. Me and Jenny.

Q. Did you hear your mother tell anyone what to say to the police after they came?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said to tell them they found her on the stairs on the porch - that two or three boys came along and dumped her and first they beated her and dumped her.

Q. Who did she tell to say that to the police?

A. Everyone of us.

Q. Did she tell you that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the police ask you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were the police already there when you got back?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever hear of Jimmy's Forest?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never heard the words "Jimmy's Forest"?

A. I believe I have once.

Q. You don't know where it is?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did your mother ever say she was going to dump Sylvia at Jimmy's Forest that you heard?

A. Yes.

Q. When did she say that?

A. She said that the last week of September.

Q. Did she ever say it later than that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, Marie, we have a statement here by Coy Hubbard - identified as State's Exhibit No. 25, in which Coy Hubbard is supposed to have said, "October 25 (which was the day before Sylvia died) I was at the house and I hit Sylvia with a broom. I think I hit her in the head and later on she passed out". Did you see Coy Hubbard hit Sylvia in the head with a broom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was Sylvia when she got hit with the broom?

A. I think it was downstairs in the basement.

Q. What was Sylvia doing just before she got hit?

A. She was just standing there.

Q. Did Coy Hubbard say anything before he hit her?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. She screamed and said, "My head hurts real bad now" and she had a real bad lump on it.

Q. Do you know what time of day that was?

A. I think it was after he got off from work.

Q. After dark?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, I told you this morning that Ricky Hobbs said in his statement, which is Exhibit No. 18, that he had branded Sylvia with the top part of the S on her chest. Did Paula make the bottom part of the 3 on her chest?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know? You stated Richard Hobbs was the one who actually put the brand on her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did he put the whole brand on?

A. He just put the S part.

Q. Did you see anyone else putting anything to that brand that he had started?

A. No, sir.

Q. Marie, did you ever see your mother hold Sylvia's head under the faucet with the water turned on?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was it hot water?

A. It was luke warm.

Q. What was that for?

A. She was washing her hair.

Q. Did she actually have soap on her hair?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she have to hold Sylvia's head or did Sylvia hold it there voluntarily?

A. Sylvia held her head under there voluntarily.

Q. Did you ever see your mother take Sylvia's head and hold it under the water when she did not want her to?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Tell the jury what happened?

A. Mom had scalding hot water running and she told Sylvia to come up from the basement and Mom putted her head under the hot water.

Q. How did she hold her head?

A. By the neck.

Q. By the neck?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was there any soap on her head at that time?

A. No, sir.

Q. How long did she hold her head under the faucet?

A. Mom did not get to hold her head under there very long because Sylvia was hysterical to get away.

Q. Did she get away?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Marie, how would you describe Sylvia to this jury?

A. She was awful looking the last time I seen her.

Q. What kind of girl was she before she was beaten up?

A. A real nice girl.

Q. Was she nice to you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was she nice to the other children in your family?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was she nice to your mother?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever hear her use any profanity or vulgar language?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she work or help around the house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she do?

A. She always got home before us kids did and would straighten up our bedrooms and the downstairs.

Q. I will ask you this, Marie, can you tell this jury why these people here, including your mother, brother, sister, Hobbs and Hubbard, these neighbor children, did this damage to her?

A. No, I do not know. I could not tell you that. I know one thing, Paula was very angry at Sylvia.

Q. What for?

A. I don't know. Paula was very jealous of Sylvia.

Q. Did she say that?

A. No, you could see it in her eyes.

Q. Was your mother angry at Sylvia?

A. No, not that I can recall of.

Q. Do you recall anything Sylvia might have done to make Paula jealous of her?

A. Well, once Sylvia - my Mom went out and bought some popsicles for every one of us kids - Mom knew Mr. Softee and the truck came around - and Sylvia did not want a popsicle and Mom bought one too many. Sylvia volunteered to take that one and Paula was going to take it and Paula got real made at Sylvia and would not talk to her for a while.

Q. Did that happen in the summer time?

A. Yes, sir, when Sylvia's brother was over, her eighteen year old brother was over.

Q. What is his name?

A. Danny, I think.

Q. Did Danny do anything to Paula to make her be mad at his sister?

A. Danny did something to make Paula mad. He was going to flip Mom and he was trying to make it out like he was kidding but Mom was trying to prevent it and he got hold of Mom and threw her over his shoulder and nearly broke Mom's leg.

Q. They were actually having a fight?

A. No, Mom did not know he was going to do that.

Q. Did your mother make Danny leave and tell him not ever to come back again?

A. She said that to Denny, Jenny's twin.

Q. What did your mother do after he did this?

A. Paula got real mad and wanted to hit him or something and then that is all I can remember.

Q. Do you know why anybody would be mad at Sylvia for that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she have anything to do with that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she ever hit your mother?

A. No, sir, she never laid a finger on my Mom.

Q. Did she ever hit Paula?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she ever hit you?

A. One time she hit me in the face and I hit her back right in the arm.

Q. Did she hit you back then?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is that the only thing you ever did to Sylvia, hit her on the arm?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that the truth?

MR. NEW: That is all.

THE COURT: Defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. GEORGE RICE, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
PAULA MARIE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Marie, do you know who I am, why I am here?

A. You are, I think you are either Paula's attorney or Johnny's attorney or Hobbs.

Q. You are close. My name is George Rice and I am the attorney for your sister Paula and my purpose is to help unravel the facts in this case and see justice is done with this problem, you understand that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When Mr. Erbecker talked with you yesterday on the stand, I believe you told him you were eleven years of age. Did you say you were in the 5th grade or 4th?

A. 5th.

Q. You started the 5th grade this September past?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are now completing your work as a 5th year student?

A. Yes.

Q. In September, if you have done your work well this year, you will become a 6th grader?

A. Yes.

Q. What subjects are you taking besides the course in Health and Physical Education, about which you spoke yesterday?

A. I am taking Science One - my most favorite subject - and I am taking English and History and Social Studies.

Q. I think you said in response to a question by Mr. Erbecker you got an A in Physical Education and this was a high grade for you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What sort of grades do you get in the course of Science?

A. I make a B.

Q. Your course in English?

A. C-average.

Q. In your course in History?

A. D.

Q. I think you testified also that you attended Grace Memorial Baptist Church, with your sisters and brothers and other children?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you attend Sunday School?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you generally go to that church every Sunday?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you begin to go?

A. We began to go when we lived on Grant. That was 1962 or '63, I think it was.

Q. Did you ever receive any awards or certificates for faithful attendance and performance there?

A. Yes.

Q. You were a pretty good student of the Bible and the lessons you had occasionally studied there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you have occasion when you were there to read actually in the Bible?

A. Yes.

Q. Had you ever had occasion to read the Bible when you were home?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever read in the Bible, the Book of Exodus - the twentieth Chapter. 16th verse - "Thou shall bear false witness against any neighbor".

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know what that means?

A. This is just an expression. I think it means like you should not say things that are not true against someone.

Q. You should not say things that are not true. Suppose you were not certain or positive about a certain matter? What do you think you should do in a case like that?

A. Like - you mean like this - if I done something wrong or anything like that?

Q. Yes - not necessarily if you had done something wrong. Suppose I asked you about a certain event and you could not remember it. If you bear false witness against anybody - or your sister for that matter - what do you think you ought to do in such a circumstance?

A. Ask God what shall I do.

Q. Would you say simply, I don't know or can't remember?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You would not try to make it up as you went along, would you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Actually, yesterday in answer to certain questions with regard to the branding, about which you testified first for Mr. Erbecker and earlier today for Mr. New with regard to your sister's participation, actually you have been quite inaccurate on that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. On that particular case, you had violated this particular command?

A. I was mixed up.

Q. You would say "yes" or "no", if you know.

A. I guess I would have to say no.

Q. You did not violate the commandment?

A. I was confused yesterday. I was sort of mixed up today.

Q. We all understand that. Now, Marie -

A. Sir?

Q. I would like to ask you some questions concerning the operation of the household where you lived at 3850 East New York Street. During the course of time you lived at that household from approximately the early part of July till the end of October, was your mother the only adult who lived in that house?

A. Paula was there.

Q. By adult, I mean a person twenty-one years of age or older?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your mother was the only person?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. No other person, man or woman, lived there who was over the age of twenty-one?

A. No, sir.

Q. Your mother was, to all intents and purposes, in charge of the household and you children?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You love your mother very much, do you not?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you love your sister Paula too?

A. I love her.

Q. You do?

A. Yes.

Q. In the Course of time when you were small, did you have occasion to play with your sister Paula?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you play together happily?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she have charge of you on those occasions, take you to the to the park when you were small?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she look after you, protect you as best she could on those occasions?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she ever do anything to make you angry or to hurt you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she ever have occasion to spank you for misbehavior?

A. She would smack my hand if I did something wrong.

Q. Did she ever smack you other than for that?

A. She would whip us with a belt if mother told her to if we did something real bad or wrong.

Q. This was on the instructions of your mother, as far as you remember on those occasions?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you love your sister?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you still love her as of this moment?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you tell us whether or not your sister Paula had occasion to work on at least part time basis while you were living on New York Street?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know where she worked?

A. I think she worked at a restaurant, I think it is called Stephanie's.

Q. Do you know what she earned there?

A. I don't know.

Q. Do you know what hours of her employment were?

A. She had to be there at 8:00 o'clock, I think it was, and got home at 4:30.

Q. Was this each day of the week?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know what she did with the money she earned there?

A. She handed half of it to Mom and kept the other half for herself.

Q. You did not object to that, did you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she ever give you any of it?

A. She would hand out an allowance.

Q. To you?

A. Every one of us.

Q. Did you think it was a good and proper thing for your sister to do?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you present on the occasion when your sister struck Sylvia Likens on the jaw and apparently fractured your sisters wrist?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall whether or not on that occasion there was any reason why your sister should have done this thing?

A. I heard that she - Sylvia called my Mom a bad name.

Q. How far were you away from the two girls when Paula struck this blow?

A. About three feet.

Q. On that occasion, did you hear Sylvia say anything to Paula to provoke that action?

A. She cried and said, "I am sorry, I am sorry".

Q. Sylvia said this?

A. Yes.

Q. After Sylvia made this remark, Paula, in anger struck this blow?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did the blow land?

A. Right here on her jaw.

Q. Did it knock Sylvia down?

A. It pushed her back a little. She was still standing.

Q. She did not fall down?

A. No.

Q. She did not become unconscious as a result of the blow?

A. No.

Q. Did her jaw begin to swell?

A. It had a bruise on it.

Q. When Sylvia got home was anything done to treat the bruise on her jaw?

A. No, you could not have done nothing with it, it was just a small bruise.

Q. I see, it did not dislodge any teeth or anything of kind, so far as you can tell?

A. No, sir.

Q. On the other hand, what was the effect on Paula?

A. Paula said she heard something pop, either her wrist or Sylvia's jaw.

Q. Did you happen to see your sister's wrist immediately after the blow was struck?

A. It swelled real bad.

Q. How long was it till she got medical aid?

A. Right after school, 3:15.

Q. On which month and day, if you can remember, please?

A. September.

Q. Are you sure it was not late in July?

A. It was in September because I was sitting at the table doing my homework.

Q. You are sure the blow was struck in September?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Not in July?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How soon after the blow was struck did medical assistance reach Paula?

A. My Mom's insurance man - it was around 7:00 o'clock in the evening.

Q. You say this was the last week in September?

A. Yes, right after school started and our Mom - I think Mom called the insurance man and asked him to take Paula to the Hospital and Shirley went with them and the insurance man came back and told Mom Paula would be there a little while.

Q. When you next saw your sister was there any evidence in sight what had been done with her injured hand?

A. Yes, it was put in a cast.

Q. It was in the cast and you saw this?

A. Yes.

Q. Did anybody write initials on the cast like boys and girls do sometimes?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you write your name?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was your sister right handed or left handed?

A. It was her left hand.

Q. I mean was the cast on the right hand or left hand?

A. It was on the left hand.

Q. Are you sure of that?

A. Yes.

Q. If I told you there had been testimony previously from three witnesses who said it was on the right hand, is it possible you could have been mistaken?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You could have been mistaken?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When your sister sat down to eat or had occasion to eat, did you notice which hand she used for the purpose of eating?

A. If it was the left hand that was broken, she would use her right. If it was her right, she would use her left.

Q. Did she have much use of the hand that was in the cast?

A. She had pretty good use of it.

Q. Did the cast go down to the end of her fingers?

A. It went right to her fingers.

Q. She had the tips of her fingers and some of the joints free and could pick up small objects?

A. Yes.

Q. How long was the cast on your sister's hand?

A. I think two months.

Q. Was she wearing it in late October - at the time Sylvia died?

A. It was not two months. It was six weeks.

Q. During all that time, so far as you can tell as a person being around the household, your sister had her right hand - if it was the right hand - handicapped to the extent a person would be whose hand was in a cast, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, I think you testified in response to a question Mr. Erbecker asked the other day - yesterday - that your mother had certain rules concerning hours when the children went to bed, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Ordinarily what time did you, as an eleven year old girl, go to bed?

A. I went to bed either at 8:00 o'clock or else 8:30.

Q. You went upstairs to your room and I think you said the room you shared with Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I think you said Jenny slept in the same room, your mother, you and your mother and Sylvia?

A. Mom slept down stairs.

Q. Did you tell us that yesterday?

A. It was Shirley and Jenny and Sylvia and we had a mattress on the floor.

Q. When you went to bed at 8:00 o'clock, did you customarily go to sleep right away?

A. I kept awake - every night I would stay awake five minutes.

Q. Did you have a television in your room?

A. No, sir.

Q. What time did you ordinarily wake up in the morning?

A. 7:30, just time to get ready for school.

Q. When did you have to leave to go to school?

A. 8:30.

Q. Did the other children go to bed the same time you did, the younger ones at least?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When meals were arranged in the household, who had charge of preparing these?

A. Mom and Paula.

Q. Did your mother make out the order list for the grocer, to have food bought from time to time?

A. She would go herself.

Q. She had charge of that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. If the children misbehaved, did your mother have occasion to speak to them, as the mother of the household?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she try there to keep order as best she could?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You have given some testimony, I think, of a total of eight items in which cases your sister was charged with doing something, at one time or another, to Sylvia and I should like to review with you one after the other and make sure we have the facts clearly in mind. You said, for example, there were occasions when - and you said three or four of these - your sister Paula was called upon to spank Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And I think you stated on each of those occasions ten to fifteen blows of the paddle were struck?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you say also the blows were struck on the bottom of this girl?

A. Right where she sat down.

Q. After each whipping, can you tell us what the effect was on Sylvia, other than making her cry and hurt?

A. She could not set down for a couple of minutes.

Q. Did she sit down after a while?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you give us some idea of the interval between the first time you saw Paula spank Sylvia and the second time she did so?

A. The first time Paula would not whip Sylvia so hard and Mom and Paula found out Sylvia was teaching us to do other things that were wrong and Paula started whipping her harder.

Q. How long was it after the first whipping till the second came, in terms of days or weeks, if you can remember?

A. The first was the second week she stayed and the second was the third.

Q. The whippings occurred at approximately weekly intervals?

A. Yes.

Q. You said a minute ago Sylvia was teaching you girls something of which your mother and apparently Paula disapproved?

A. She would take us down somewhere and make us steal.

Q. Did you engage in this activity?

A. I would not take a thing.

Q. Did any of the other children do this?

A. She brainwashed Jimmy to do this.

Q. You actually saw this yourself?

A. Yes.

Q. Who reported this to your mother?

A. I did.

Q. What was your mother's reaction?

A. She did not like it.

Q. Did she cause anything to be done in connection with it?

A. Mom wanted Paula to whip her and every one of us.

Q. Your mother directed your sister Paula to whip her? Did Paula do it when she was directed to do this?

A. Yes.

Q. Was this the first time Sylvia was whipped by Paula?

A. I think it was the third time.

Q. You have referred also to the episode regarding the cutting the hair of Sylvia Likens?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. At the time the hair was cut, was Sylvia seated or standing?

A. She was standing.

Q. Did I hear you say she, Sylvia, remarked she was glad to have the hair cut shorter because it kept it off her neck?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you say it was a very good job of hair cutting?

A. Parts of it were crooked.

Q. How long was it after the cutting was finished?

A. About here.

Q. About as long as yours?

A. No, mine is a little longer.

Q. Would you say that Sylvia going out in this amateurish fashion - do you know what amateurish means?

A. No.

Q. An amateur is a person who has not done a thing very often, is not a professional. Would you say Sylvia - going abroad with her hair cut in an unprofessional way caused the children in the neighborhood to point their finger at her, mock her?

A. No.

Q. It was not that bad?

A. They would not say anything.

Q. Nobody did say it.

A. Nobody said anything.

Q. The third instance you spoke about, the episode involving the throwing of salt, I believe on the injured cut knee of Sylvia, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you there when this happened?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us what time of day, what month this happened in?

A. It was right after Paula got home from work.

Q. Do you recall whether it was on a weekend or the middle of the week?

A. I'd say about the middle of the week.

Q. Was it the month of September?

A. It was in September, yes.

Q. Sometime in the month of September.

A. Yes.

Q. Had you had occasion to see Sylvia undressed prior to this time?

A. She had clothes on every day.

Q. But when she went to bed did you have occasion to see her sufficiently undressed you could see the condition of her knees?

A. When she had on her shorty pajamas.

Q. You did see her knees at one time or another?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you describe the extent of the cut or injury to her knee for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury?

A. It was about this big and covered her whole knee.

Q. Was all the skin scraped off in that area?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was the salt obtained to put on this injury?

A. On the wound.

Q. Who brought the salt for this purpose?

A. It was what we always kept on the table.

Q. It was on the table?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Paula reach forward at this time and pick up the salt container?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who else was in the room at this time?

A. I was, Shirley, Jimmy, Johnny, Stephanie and Mom was present.

Q. Was there a great deal or a modest amount of salt put on this wound?

A. Very little salt.

Q. Did anyone else take the container of salt after it was replaced on the table and pour additional salt on that wound?

A. Not that I can remember.

Q. Someone could have and you don't remember, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, you had reference also in the next incident to the tearing of clothing, did you not?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The clothing being torn was Sylvia's and - was her person injured any way when this clothing was torn?

A. No, sir.

Q. Maybe she was angered or embarrassed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. At the time the salt was put on by your sister Paula, what was her reaction?

A. She had to grit her teeth it hurt so bad.

Q. Did she run upstairs?

A. She got a little bowl of water and had a washrag.

Q. She washed it off?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she able to walk about after that?

A. She was limping.

Q. As a result of the injury or the salt?

A. The injury.

Q. Had she limped sometime before this?

A. She limped when she fell down and scraped her knee.

Q. Did you have occasion to see your sister Paula smoke?

A. The only time I ever saw Paula smoke was when she was awful nervous.

Q. Did you ever see her smoke more than once or twice?

A. I only seen her smoke three times. That was when she was awful nervous.

Q. Ever more than one cigarette?

A. One cigarette every time she smoked.

Q. She was not what you would call a confirmed smoker?

A. No.

Q. You also said Sylvia was pushed down the stairs by several people, of whom your sister Paula was one?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you tell whether or not the hands of Sylvia were free at the time she was pushed?

A. They were free.

Q. Where was she standing when the push was given?

A. At the top of the stairs.

Q. Where were you standing?

A. I was at the foot.

Q. Was more than one person standing at the top of this stair?

A. Only the person who was going to push her.

Q. That is to say, Sylvia and your sister Paula were at the head of the stairs?

A. I was at the foot and Paula was at the head.

Q. Sylvia was at the head, getting ready to come down?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell us how many steps there were from where these girls were standing and the point where you were standing?

A. I think eight or nine steps.

Q. Was there a railing that went downstairs on either side?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then you saw someone, you say your sister Paula, give her a push?

A. It was quite a few of them pushed her.

Q. Was actually more than one person standing at the head of the stairs and Sylvia was standing facing you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So you could not tell in the group who actually gave the push that actually sent her moving forward?

A. No.

Q. As to that matter, you are not quite positive who did push her - would that be correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, with regard to the episode involving the placing of Sylvia in a tub of water, can you tell us the time of the month when that was done?

A. It was done quite a few times in October.

Q. On these occasions, were you present?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did not testify anything someone else told you concerning these bathings then?

A. No, I did not talk with nobody.

Q. How many times did you see Sylvia bathed in that house?

A. I think about seven.

Q. Seven times?

A. Six or seven.

Q. Did all of you children make use of the same bath tub?

A. Yes.

Q. You yourself also bathed in that tub when the need arose?

A. Yes.

Q. The water in the tub contained both spigots for hot and cold water?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you in the room when the water was drawn?

A. I was downstairs at the present.

Q. Could you hear the water running?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you go upstairs then to observe what you testified about?

A. I went upstairs when someone called Sylvia.

Q. You responded to the call of Sylvia, although that is not your name?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why did you go upstairs?

A. Because Shirley called me upstairs to do something.

Q. I see. When you came to the head of the stairs was the tub filled with water?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was the door to the bathroom open?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you able to see into it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was there when you looked?

A. Paula, Johnny, Richard Hobbs, Stephanie and Sylvia.

Q. Were they standing there?

A. They were standing there.

Q. Were they all dressed on this occasion?

A. They were not dressed up. They had their work clothes

Q. Play clothes on, rough clothing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was Sylvia also dressed on this occasion?

A. Yes, she was in play clothes too.

Q. Did you have an opportunity to go in to test the water yourself?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know whether or not the opportunity was taken by your sister Shirley to put her hand in the water and test it? Did you see her do that?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not see that? Were you able any way to tell whether the water was hot or cold?

A. I saw steam.

Q. You saw steam? Do you know at all what was the temperature in the room that day?

A. Once it was during the summer time.

Q. We were speaking, I think, either late September or October here, were we not. It would be autumn, would it not?

A. It was in the autumn.

Q. Was the window to the bathroom open?

A. No, sir.

Q. On that occasion, did you tell us ropes were tied to the hands and feet of Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Who tied these ropes?

A. Johnny.

Q. Your brother Johnny?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was he the only person who did this?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are sure of that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What happened then?

A. They gagged her.

Q. Who are they?

A. Johnny, Paula and Richard Hobbs.

Q. Was she still wearing her clothing when this was done?

A. One time she was.

Q. On one occasion she was clothed and on another she was not clothed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was she gagged?

A. Yes.

Q. Then put in the water by a group of children?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was your mother there on this occasion?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was Sylvia's reaction?

A. She - when she first got in the water it sounded - she acted like it was awful cold.

Q. Awful cold? What makes you say that?

A. Because every time they putted her in the water her teeth started going up and down like it would be if you're cold.

Q. Did anyone make use of a sponge or soap for the use of cleaning her on this occasion?

A. No, sir.

Q. How many people were in the room on the first time you saw her bathed in this way?

A. Six.

Q. Who were the people, if you can remember?

A. Hobbs, John, Stephanie, myself and Shirley and Jimmy and Mom.

Q. Standing there together?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you in a position where you could see Sylvia while you stood there?

A. I was holding little Denny, getting ready to go downstairs because me and him just woke up from a little nap.

Q. Can you describe for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury the dimension of this bathroom, how many feet long it was and how many feet wide?

A. It was no longer than from down to the edge of the judge's desk down at the attorney.

Q. It is a relatively small bathroom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were standing in back of these children?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Facing - was Sylvia facing toward you or facing toward the tub?

A. Toward the tub.

Q. Were any of them taller than you?

A. Yes, sir. I was nearly as tall as Johnny.

Q. Was he the shortest one - the next shortest one to you in the group?

A. Paula compared to Johnny and he was nearly the smallest.

Q. What you saw you saw you had to see over the shoulders of these children?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you remain?

A. Two or three minutes.

Q. What did you do?

A. I went downstairs with little Denny.

Q. Did you stay in the house on that occasion?

A. I had to.

Q. You were being disciplined for something?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How soon after you came downstairs did you have occasion to see Sylvia?

A. When we went out to play kickball.

Q. Did she go out to play kickball with you?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she able to play this game?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she say anything concerning the incident?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she complain?

A. She was awful red afterward and said her body felt like it was in real deep pain.

Q. Did you notice any blisters on her body or face as a result of this bath?

A. No, sir.

Q. Or as a result of any other baths she submitted to?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never did? Now with regard to the episode regarding the branding - that is next on the list of incidents about which you have made a report - that you testified in response to questions Mr. Erbecker, that it was your sister Paula who had heated the iron and applied the iron to the chest of Sylvia Likens.

A. That is what I thought.

Q. Now, in response to a question by Mr. New, you changed your opinion on that, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir, after he told me.

Q. You stated you recall the iron had been heated and handed to the boy named Hobbs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It was he who made use of this device?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it applied to the chest of this girl while you were standing or sitting there?

A. I was on my way up from getting the rake.

Q. Was this the occasion when you went to the basement for the purpose of getting the rake and basket to go rake leaves and earn money?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long would you say you were in the basement at this time?

A. Four or five minutes.

Q. And you saw papers burned in the sink for the purpose of producing flame?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were the papers ignited instantly when you went in the basement?

A. They burned very slow.

Q. At the time you went in the basement, the papers were not already burning?

A. No, sir.

Q. How many papers were placed in this sink?

A. A stack about this big.

Q. Folded papers?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did they burn readily?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Tightly folded papers?

A. Yes.

Q. They burned readily?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You saw this?

A. Yes.

Q. You are quite sure?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did these papers burn before the iron object was placed in the paper's flame?

A. Only for a few seconds.

Q. Only a few seconds?

A. Yes.

Q. When the piece of metal was extracted from the flame was it glowing and red?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was this piece of iron about which you are talking?

A. It was either iron or steel.

Q. You make a nice distinction, I see. On that occasion then after being there several minutes, you went upstairs to do whatever you had to do?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When you left who had the iron in his hand?

A. Hobbs.

Q. Mr. Hobbs did?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is your relationship with him? Are you a friend of his?

A. He was a friend of my Mom's.

Q. Was he a friend of yours also?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you like him pretty well?

A. Fair.

Q. You played with him?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you still like him?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you yourself ever have occasion to inflict any punishment on Sylvia Likens while she was in your house?

A. All I did was to hit her when she hit me once.

Q. Just the incident about which you testified earlier, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I think you stated, Marie, your sister Paula - you volunteered - was jealous of Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I think you said the reason you knew it, you could see it in her eyes - do I quote you correctly on that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was it in her eyes that told you of the jealousy?

A. Every time she looked at her, her eyes looked like she hated Sylvia awful bad.

Q. Do you know what the word jealous means?

A. Angry at someone.

Q. Angry?

A. Yes.

Q. That is your understanding of the meaning of that word?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you assign a reason why your sister Paula would shoot these jealous or angry glances at Sylvia?

A. I think because Sylvia - I guess because Sylvia thought she was so much more important than Paula was.

Q. This is your opinion on this matter?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to see anyone strike Sylvia on the head with an object of any kind other than the hand?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us when and where you saw it?

A. I saw it in the front room of our house.

Q. Who struck this blow?

A. Hobbs.

Q. Hobbs struck the blow? Can you tell us what was in his hand when this blow was struck?

A. One time was a board.

Q. You mean the paddle Mr. New showed you earlier?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell where on her head this blow landed?

A. Right in here.

Q. The center part of the head?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see your sister Paula strike Sylvia with anything other than her fist?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never did? You are quite sure of that?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. RICE: I have no more, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Defendant John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard may examine the witness.

MR. BOWMAN: Thank you, Your Honor.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. FORREST BOWMAN, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANTS,
COY HUBBARD AND JOHN STEPHAN BANISZEWSKI

Q. Marie, do you know who I am?

A. Coy and Johnny's attorney.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because both of the boys sit behind you and talk to you.

Q. Are you sure Mr. Rice does not represent Johnny?

A. I am quite sure, Mr. Rice represents Paula.

Q. Who told you than?

A. Nobody.

Q. Nobody. Now you say that Sylvia brainwashed Jimmy?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was that what caused him to steal?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she try to brainwash you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She was not able to do it with you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know why she was able to do it with Jimmy and not with you?

A. I don't know.

Q. It would be pretty hard to brainwash you, would it?

A. I am not bald headed.

Q. I beg pardon?

A. I am not bald headed.

Q. What time did you get here yesterday?

A. We had to be here at 1:15.

Q. Did you talk to your mother yesterday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where?

A. In that room over there.

Q. Did she talk to you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was anybody there with her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was there?

A. Her attorney.

Q. Did he talk to you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your mother talked to you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you tell us this morning your mother did not talk to you?

A. Pardon?

Q. Did you tell us this morning your mother did not talk to you?

A. She talked to me.

Q. My question is - is that what you told us this morning?

A. She talked to me. I did not say she did not talk to me.

Q. Did you say Mr. Erbecker was the only one who talked?

A. Mr. Erbecker and my Mom talked to me.

Q. About how long?

A. Five minutes.

Q. Five minutes, is that all?

A. Well, when the man came in to call on Mr. Erbecker and Mom I guess it was about ten or fifteen minutes we were in there.

Q. Now, was everything you told us yesterday the truth?

A. I was confused yesterday and today I was sort of mixed up.

Q. You were confused yesterday and mixed up today?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was everything you told us yesterday the truth?

A. Yes and no.

Q. Yes and no. What about today? Was everything you told us today the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Everything?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Everything you have said today has been the truth, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You have not told any lies today?

A. Yes - oop - no, sir.

Q. You goofed, Marie. You have to be careful about those.

A. I kept on saying yes, sir.

Q. It is awful easy to goof.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You have to watch what you say very carefully.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember everything you told us today?

A. Most of it.

Q. Do you remember everything you told us yesterday?

A. Part of it.

Q. Part of it. Now, do you remember telling us today about going to your aunt's?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that was the day Sylvia died, was it?

A. No, sir.

Q. It was not?

A. No, sir. It was the weekend before she died.

Q. The weekend?

A. Before she died.

Q. Was that on Saturday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you tell us the day you went to Dr. Lindenborg's?

A. I went on Saturday and I got mixed up. I went a couple a of Saturdays before she died.

Q. So it was on Saturday you went to your aunt's?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did you rake leaves on Saturday?

A. Sometimes we would, sometimes we would not.

Q. I am talking about Saturday before Sylvia died.

A. Yes, sir, we went.

Q. You went where?

A. We went out to rake leaves in the morning and in the afternoon I went over to my aunt's.

Q. You went to your aunt's because she had called your mother and said there were some things she wanted you to bring, called her on the telephone?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you get a telephone in your house, Marie?

A. Well -

Q. You did not have one, did you?

A. We called at a neighbor's. She called us at the neighbor's.

Q. Called you at the neighbor's. I see, and the neighbor called your mother told her she had some things you were to pick up and bring back to your house, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did that, didn't you?

A. What?

Q. Picked the things up?

A. Oh, yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember when all six people put Sylvia in the bathtub? That happened lots of times, did it?

A. Yes.

Q. It first started happening back in the summer?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In August?

A. Yes.

Q. The early part of August?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember Johnny helping put her in there then?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember that clearly?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did Johnny come back from living with his dad?

A. Before Darlene MacGuire ever introduced Sylvia to my Mom.

Q. Before Darlene introduced Sylvia to your Mom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Johnny lived there with you in July?

A. Yes.

Q. August?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. He lived with his dad in August, didn't he?

A. He did not live with Dad in August.

Q. Did he come back to live with you right before school started?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did he live before that?

A. With my Dad.

Q. What month was that?

A. He stayed there one school year. The last school year he stayed with Dad, the last school year, and then he came home with us in January.

Q. He lived with you all summer?

A. Part of the summer.

Q. Now, do you remember the day Sylvia died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You remember you went to school that day, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You and Johnny came home from school together?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember that clearly?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is the day Sylvia died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you get home at the same time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are sure Johnny went to school that day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Tell me now real quick, what did you bring home from your aunt's?

A. A big laundry bag with clothes.

Q. A big laundry bag with clothes?

A. Yes.

Q. Did your mother do laundry?

A. No, but those were things my aunt gave my Mom for us kids and her.

Q. You and your mother and Mr. Erbecker talked about that yesterday?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not mention clothes?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you remember the time your mother put her under the faucet with hot water and got it on her cheek?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It scalded all the skin off - do you remember that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. In October.

Q. Your mother did that, did she?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now you remember this?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember when Mr. New had that up here?

A. Yes, sir, the paddle?

Q. Were you afraid of him when he was up here with that?

A. No, sir.

Q. You don't think he would hit you with it?

A. No, sir.

Q. You don't think I would?

A. No.

Q. The judge would not let him?

A. No.

Q. Do you remember when your mother hit Sylvia in the head with that?

A. No, sir.

Q. You don't remember that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was that before or after she scalded the skin off her cheek with the faucet?

A. I don't know.

Q. When did she scald the skin off Sylvia's cheek with the faucet?

A. In October.

Q. Why did you not tell Mr. New that?

A. I guess he never asked me or something.

Q. You like to get along with people, don't you?

A. Yes.

Q. People ask you questions and you like to agree with them, don't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Whoever it is, don't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you go to bed at 8:00 o'clock every night?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Every night?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You had to get your sleep, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember the night Coy Hubbard hit Sylvia in the head with that broom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was before 8:00 o'clock, was it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Because you went to bed at 8:00 o'clock, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Coy Hubbard got off work before 8:00 o'clock every night?

A. Yes.

Q. He got over to your house before 8:00 o'clock, did he?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And where did that happen?

A. Down in the basement.

Q. Who all was down there?

A. Johnny and Coy and Paula and myself and Jenny.

Q. Jenny, are you sure Jenny saw that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was it that stepped on her foot till she got a blister?

A. Johnny.

Q. Did he stomp on it real hard?

A. He would scratch the heel of his foot and sole against her foot.

Q. His heel and sole against her foot?

A. Yes.

Q. She was barefooted?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did he do that in the early part of the summer?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is when that happened?

A. When he came to live with us.

Q. Whenever that was?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did your mother take her to a doctor, Dr. Lindenborg on account of that?

A. She tried to doctor it herself.

Q. She tried to doctor it herself? Do you remember when the incident with Jimmy was?

A. Sylvia promised him a piggy-back ride and he was trying to get on her back and Sylvia turned around real quick and he landed flat on his back.

Q. She was playing with him?

A. I don't know. I was not there.

Q. You were not there?

A. No, sir, I was there at the present time when he was crying about it.

Q. I see. Jimmy had kidney trouble?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were not supposed to roughhouse with him, were you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you remember when Coy Hubbard flipped Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times did he flip her?

A. Two or three times.

Q. Two or three times?

A. Yes, he flipped her two times one day and three times the next day.

Q. Are you sure?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are sure it was not three times one day and four times the next?

A. If I told you that, I forgot what I said.

Q. I see. Do you remember what really happened?

A. He flipped her.

Q. He flipped her?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see that?

A. He, flipped her, yes.

Q. You saw that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember when you got the mattress?

A. Yes, sir, because I went up and got it.

Q. Then they played some more, did they?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Shirley tear any of her clothes off?

A. No, not that I can remember of.

Q. Now, you did not see that, any of the last part of that writing, did you?

A. No, sir.

Q. You left, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You went out to rake leaves?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, when they were doing the branding, you had gone down in the basement to get your rake, had you?

A. Yes.

Q. So you could go out and rake leaves?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was that when they were doing the marking with the needle?

A. She was in the front of - I think in front of the basement door and I told Hobbs to excuse me and he did and I went downstairs and that was not when they heated up the iron thing.

Q. That was not it?

A. No, sir.

Q. That was a different time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember what day they did the branding with that iron?

A. No, sir.

Q. You don't remember that. Do you remember what day they did the scratching with the needle?

A. I think Tuesday.

Q. What makes you able to remember that?

A. I don't know.

Q. Your mother did not have anything to do with that, did she?

A. No, sir.

Q. She was not even there, was she?

A. No, she was upstairs.

Q. Upstairs, you mean the second floor?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Up in the bedroom asleep or on the main floor?

A. She was downstairs. She was not in the basement. She was in her bedroom right next to the kitchen.

Q. Right upstairs from the basement, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She did not do anything about that?

A. She knew about it.

Q. She knew about it afterwards?

A. Yes.

Q. She did not know about it when it was happening?

A. You mean the branding?

Q. Marking with the needle?

A. She knew about that.

Q. She did know about it?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you tell us today she did not know about that?

A. I heard that she was the one that started it all but Hobbs did it all.

Q. Hobbs did it all?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She did not start it, is that right?

A. She did not start it. She did not even offer to.

Q. Was she there when it was done?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She was there. Did you tell us she was not?

A. She was not in the kitchen. She was in the bedroom at the present time.

Q. Oh, she was in the bedroom when it was done, she was not in the kitchen any time it was done, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, is everything you told me the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Everything?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did your aunt live?

A. On 18th street.

Q. On 18th street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How did you get over there?

A. Well, you had to go on up to Zayre's - I think that is the name of the place on Linwood - and go straight till you hit - it was on 10th Street - and you go on up till you hit 18th street and you turn at a certain place and then walk straight and you find my aunt's.

Q. Did you ever get mad at Johnny?

A. Once in a while, but I never swung my arm at him or anything.

Q. You never hit him?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, was everything you told Mr. Rice the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was everything you told Mr. New the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Everything?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was everything you told Mr. Erbecker the truth?

A. He had me confused yesterday.

Q. He did?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did anybody tell you to tell the jury that Richard Hobbs and Paula and Johnny and Coy actually done some of the things your mother really did?

A. I don't get what you mean.

Q. Did anybody tell you to tell these people someone did something when really it was someone else who did it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Nobody told you that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did anybody tell you to tell something that was not true?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did anybody confuse you so you might tell the jury someone did something when really someone else did?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. BOWMAN: No more questions.

THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs may cross examine the witness.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. JAMES NEDEFF, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
RICHARD HOBBS

Q. Marie, who do you live with now?

A. Mrs. Simpson.

Q. How long have you been living with her?

A. A month I would say, about.

Q. How long?

A. For about two months.

Q. Who did you live with before you went to live with Mrs. Simpson?

A. I was at the Guardian Home.

Q. On University Avenue?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You had been there since October?

A. I been there through the rest of October to February.

Q. Did you like it there at the Guardian Home?

A. It was O.K.

Q. Do you like it better than there at Mrs. Simpson's?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

A. I like it better at Mrs. Simpson's.

Q. Have you been reading about this case in the newspaper?

A. No, sir.

Q. Have you at all?

A. No, sir, all I seen was the headlines of it.

Q. Have you talked to anyone where you live about it?

A. No, sir.

Q. No one?

A. Only with my foster mother.

Q. Mrs. Simpson?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you talk to her very much about it?

A. No, sir. All I ever told her was that I hope I did not have to go because I was afraid it might make me nervous or something.

Q. Did anyone tell you how to talk down here to help your mother?

A. No, sir. No, sir.

Q. Now, Marie, let's go back to that day the words were put on Sylvia's stomach. Who was there at the house?

A. Shirley, Johnny, Paula was at work I think - I am not so sure. Mom was in her bedroom. Shirley and Jimmy were there and Jenny was and the Hobbs boy was.

Q. The Hobbs boy was what?

A. There.

Q. When did he get there?

A. Well, I think he stayed at lunch with us.

Q. You think he stayed and had lunch with you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you at all remember what day of the week it was?

A. I think it was on Tuesday.

Q. Was there any school at all that day?

A. No, sir.

Q. That was the 26th of October?

A. It was on Tuesday before she died.

Q. Oh, a day before?

A. It was on Tuesday.

Q. Was it a week before the Tuesday Sylvia died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That would be a school day, wouldn't it?

A. They kept us out, told us not to go to school that day for some reason. Why, I don't know.

Q. You don't know?

A. I think there was a teacher's meeting.

Q. Where did you go to school at that time?

A. 78.

Q. Where did Paula go?

A. She went to work. She stayed home.

Q. Where did Stephanie go to school?

A. Tech.

Q. Where did Shirley go to school?

A. The same school I did.

Q. Nobody was in school that day?

A. No, sir.

Q. That was you say about 1:00 o'clock?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time did Ricky Hobbs get there to your home?

A. At noon.

Q. Noontime?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was Sylvia at when Ricky came?

A. In the basement.

Q. And she was in the basement when Ricky came. Where were you and your sisters and your brother Johnny?

A. Johnny was in the kitchen getting a glass of water and I was in the room getting ready to walk in the kitchen - in Mom's room getting ready to walk in the kitchen.

Q. Was your Mom in the bedroom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Her bedroom is actually the dining room?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The doorway from the dining room leads to what room?

A. One doorway leads in the front door and one leads in the kitchen.

Q. Where?

A. The other led to the kitchen.

Q. Into the kitchen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where her bed was located there in the dining room, she could look right in the kitchen, could she?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, what were you talking about before Ricky got there? Were you talking about Sylvia?

A. No. We were talking about going out and earning money.

Q. Raking leaves?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, was there any talk with your mother about Sylvia saying something about Paula and Stephanie being prostitutes?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was in the kitchen and your Mom was talking to you about it?

A. Well, that was one - I think - one reason why Paula was so mad at her.

Q. That was one of the reasons?

A. One of the reasons Paula was so mad at her was that Sylvia - when she went to Tech with Sylvia - Sylvia would go over and tell lies on Paula and Stephanie.

Q. That day in the kitchen before Ricky got there, there was talk by your mother and Paula and the other kids about Sylvia saying Stephanie and Paula were whores, prostitutes and selling their bodies?

A. Yes, sir, but I did not talk a thing about it.

Q. Paula was real mad?

A. Yes.

Q. She not only was jealous, she was real angry?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When Ricky got there they were still taking about what Sylvia had said about Stephanie and Paula?

A. Pardon?

Q. That talk was still going on about what Sylvia said about your sisters?

A. They got over that afterwards - I mean - they were still talking about it, yes.

Q. Now, that was the same day that your mother asked Paula if she knew what a tattoo was?

A. Asked Paula about a tattoo?

Q. Asked if she - asked Sylvia - I am sorry - she asked Sylvia if she knew what a tattoo was?

A. I think Mom said to Sylvia, "Do you know what a tattoo is"?, and she said, 'I think I do. This is when they punched holes in a certain shape and filled it with some kind of color".

Q. Now, when Ricky came, he came there to the back door, did he?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When he came in did your mother ask Ricky if he knew what a tattoo was and if he knew how tattoos were made?

A. I don't know.

Q. Can't you remember at all?

A. No, sir.

Q. Alright, let me ask you this. That was the same day your mother said to Sylvia, "Come up from the basement"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Sylvia came up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How was she dressed?

A. She had some tight pants on and a blouse.

Q. Was there any buttons on the blouse?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The pants - were they bermudas? How far did they come to - her knee?

A. They went to her ankles - black, tight pants.

Q. Were there buttons on the pants?

A. It was a snap and a zipper.

Q. Now, who told Sylvia to take off her clothes?

A. I can't remember.

Q. Was it your mother?

A. I don't know.

Q. Now, you do know, Sylvia was not taking them off quick enough and your mother came and ripped them off, didn't she?

A. I guess so.

Q. Did your mother walk over and rip them off because Sylvia was not taking them off?

A. I don't know.

Q. Now, did your mother say to Sylvia, "You branded my girls. I am going to brand you"?

A. No, Sylvia did not do nothing to us.

Q. Who did not?

A. Sylvia did not even do anything to us.

Q. Did your mother say "You branded Stephanie and Paula and I am going to brand you". Did your mother say that in the kitchen?

A. I think what Mom meaned by that that Sylvia gave Paula and Stephanie a black mark in their name.

Q. Yes, but did she use the words "Sylvia branded Stephanie and Paula, my children, and I am going to brand you"?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Do you remember what your mother said?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where was she standing?

A. She was in the bedroom, standing right by the kitchen door.

Q. Where was Sylvia standing?

A. In the corner of the kitchen by the door.

Q. Now, you remember this morning, Marie, Mr. New was talking to you and you said, "Oh, my God, help me"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, that is when you decided to tell the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Let me ask you again, is it a fact your mother, in the kitchen, said to Sylvia, "You branded my children and I am going to brand you"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she do - tell you to do? Did she send you on a little errand to the other room? What did she tell you to get?

A. She told me to go get a book of matches.

Q. Did she tell you to get something out of the plastic case, needles?

A. Yes.

Q. How many needles were in the case?

A. Ten or eleven.

Q. You took them to your mother in the kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. Together with matches?

A. Yes.

Q. Your mother picked out what kind of a needle?

A. About that long.

Q. What did she do?

A. Handed it to Hobbs.

Q. What did she do before she handed it to Hobbs?

A. Just handed it to him, said "Here".

Q. Before she handed the needle to Hobbs, what did she do with the needle?

A. She just took it out of the package and handed it to Hobbs.

Q. Who lit the needle first?

A. He told me to light a match.

Q. Who did?

A. Hobbs. I did not know what he meant. I lighted the match and he put it in it.

MR. BOWMAN: Judge, we need a recess.

THE COURT: Alright, Mr. Nedeff?

MR. NEDEFF: Yes.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, please retire to the jury room. By agreement of counsel and with the consent of the State and the defendants, the jury is permitted to separate. Return to the jury room so we can commence court at 3:30 today. During the recess, don't let talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express an opinion on the case till it is submitted to you. In leaving the room, don't forget - don't read any newspaper articles about the case and don't listen to anything that may be broadcast about the case. I am sorry but I have got to tell you this every time you leave.

JURY EXCUSED.

THE COURT: The court is still in session. Let me tell everybody, court is in session. There has been a request made early this morning by Mr. Erbecker that he be permitted to consult with the witness. I made this an extra long recess so he could be afforded the opportunity of speaking with the witness Marie Baniszewski. Mr. Hammond, if you feel it is your duty to be with her at the time, that is your business. I can't tell you what to do. We are in recess till 3:30 today.

RECESS.

THE COURT: Are you ready for the jury?

MR. BOWMAN: We are ready for the jury.

MR. RICE: Ready.

MR. ERBECKER: We are ready.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: The defendant Richard Hobbs may continue with examination of this witness.

Q. Now, Marie, where was your mother at when Randy Lepper came to the back kitchen door?

A. She was in the front room.

Q. When he came into the kitchen did your mother come in the kitchen at that time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did your mother tell Sylvia to do?

A. Go downstairs.

Q. She did not tell her to go - did she say to stand on the first landing in the basement?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Do you remember why she told Sylvia to stand in the basement doorway on the first landing? Why did she want her to do that?

A. I can't remember.

Q. How long did Randy stay?

A. He always stays until his mother calls him. That is about when she comes home, I think about 6:00 o'clock, when she comes home.

Q. Now, your mother - did she use the hot needle and put the word "I" and part of the word "am" on Sylvia's stomach?

A. Not that I can recall of.

Q. Yesterday you said you were positive your mother had nothing to do with it.

A. She did not.

Q. In fact, yesterday, did you tell this jury and this court your mother was never in the kitchen?

A. She was not in the kitchen.

Q. This afternoon, a half hour ago, you said she came in the kitchen when Randy came.

A. He was in there when Hobbs was putting on the rest of the prostitute part.

Q. Did you heat the needle any of the time?

A. Only the first time when he told me.

Q. He finally took the needle from you and scratched the rest on there?

A. He did not take it from me. I did not start any of it. I was not even carving any on her. I was holding a match and he did not tell me what he needed it for. He put the needle over the fire and then after he got it red hot he put it on Sylvia.

Q. He finally took the needle - he did not want you to light the needle?

A. I lighted a match and he put the needle over that and heated it up.

Q. Then he finished with the needle?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he scratch it on?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know who came by later and used an ink pen and traced over those words "I am a prostitute and proud of it"?

A. No, sir.

Q. Who did you hear did that?

MR. NEW: We object.

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

MR. RICE: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Marie, is it a fact that you asked - Ricky asked your mother how to spell the word prostitute?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She came out and in fact in the kitchen even wrote it on piece of paper, did she?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did she stay in the kitchen?

A. She stayed in till he got finished, I think. I was only there when he put "I am a prostitute" and that was it. That is all I saw.

Q. Now, Marie, your mother was still in the kitchen after this all was done?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And your mother told Sylvia, "Now you can't get married, you can't undress in front of a husband or anyone because that will be on your stomach"?

A. That is right.

Q. Where was Sylvia standing then?

A. In the same place.

Q. Now, during the recess did you talk to your mother?

A. Just a minute.

Q. How many minutes?

A. Fifteen minutes, I imagine.

Q. Did you talk to any other people besides your mother?

A. I talked to my stepmother and I said "Hi" to Johnny.

Q. Did your stepmother tell you to say anything?

A. She was just talking to me. She did not tell me anything. She was talking to me how everything was at the house. She did not tell me to say anything.

Q. When your mother told Sylvia "Any time you undress, if you get married, everybody will see that brand", how many times did she say that?

A. Only once that time after he put those marks on her.

Q. She laughed about it?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, taking you back to the day that Sylvia died, where were you at?

A. I was out raking leaves.

Q. You came from school what time?

A. I came home from school at 3:30.

Q. How long did you stay there?

A. We stayed there - I did not - do you mean at home or at school?

Q. Before you went to rake leaves?

A. I stayed there about half an hour.

Q. Who did you go with?

A. Jenny.

Q. When did you come back?

A. I came back - I think it was 6:00.

Q. You don't know?

A. I did not get a chance to look at the clock.

Q. Now, Marie, yesterday you told this court and jury about your mother being in bed, she did not know anything about these words. You were lying?

A. I was confused yesterday.

Q. Who got you confused?

A. Mr. Erbecker.

Q. You were not telling the truth at all, is that a fact?

A. He had me confused. I was confused all the way through yesterday. I did not know what to say. I was afraid I was going to say something wrong.

Q. Let me ask you again - how many letters of that word Sylvia's stomach did your mother put on?

A. I don't know. As far as I can recall, Mom did not put any as long as I was in there.

Q. You would do anything to help your mother, wouldn't you.

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. Next question, please.

Q. Now, on Sylvia's chest there was a letter 3 or was it an S?

A. I think it was either a 3 or S. I don't know.

Q. You were there. What was that supposed to stand for if it was going to be an S?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Now, since I have been talking to you, have you been telling the truth, have you?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. NEDEFF: No other questions.

THE COURT: Any omitted questions or any re-direct, Mr. Erbecker?

MR. ERBECKER: In the nature of both, Your Honor.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Now, Marie, during the recess, your mother and Mr. Hammond and you and I went to that little room right there, didn't we?

A. Yes.

Q. You on a chair next to the wall?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Mr. Hammond sat right next to you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your mother set against that wall, didn't she?

A. Yes.

Q. I stood there by the door?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I did not say anything at all any time, did I?

A. No, sir.

Q. And I made notes, did I?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, you are not confused now, are you?

A. No, sir.

Q. I am not confusing you now, am I?

A. No, sir.

Q. I did not mean to. Did I tell you yesterday when I was interrupted by the man, to tell the truth, no matter who it hurts?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, a while ago did you tell Mr. Hammond and your mother and me the housemother said to forget something?

A. Yes, the housemother at the Guardians Home told me to forget about it.

Q. What did she mean?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Is that all she said about it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. A while ago did your mother say this or this in substance to you, "Didn't we tell you to tell the truth yesterday" did your mother tell you that?

A. Yes.

Q. And you said, "Yes, I did, Mother, the best I could"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then your mother said something like this, "I told you kids to straighten up - if you did not something terrible would happen". Did she tell you that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You said this, "The devil caused all this". Did you say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did you say - did your mother tell you it was impossible for her to even lift Denny because of this?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you say to that?

A. I did not say anything about that.

Q. Now then, Marie, did Jenny Likens ever burn Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. She never did? Did anyone threaten you at all since you got in the courtroom yesterday morning?

A. No, sir.

Q. No one did? You are not afraid of anything, are you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was your mother and Johnny at the doctor's on Saturday before the death of Sylvia?

A. Not that I can recall.

Q. You don't remember that? Is it a fact, your mother tried to run the kids out of that house on lots of occasions and they would come on back any way?

A. Not that I can remember of.

Q. She never did?

A. I can't remember if she did or not.

Q. Now, did you - did I misunderstand you or did you testify awhile ago that Sylvia taught you to steal, did you say that?

A. She brainwashed Jimmy and tried to brainwash us three little ones into stealing something for us. She brainwashed Jimmy into doing it.

Q. Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know?

A. Cause I was there when she was brainwashing him.

Q. You were there when she brainwashed him?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times did that happen?

A. She made him do it a couple of times.

Q. Made him do what?

A. Go in the store - he had a little coat on - and take something and wrap the coat around it.

Q. When our mother found out about it did she whip you or cause somebody to whip you?

A. She would tell Paula to whip us because she was not in any shape to whip us.

Q. Did you testify today that one time Sylvia thanked your mother for giving her assistance on her wounds - did you say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. It was day before she died.

Q. Now, I think you also testified, did you, that your mother tried to fix Sylvia's lip?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. Before she died, way before she died.

Q. How many times did you see your mother try to help Sylvia?

A. I don't remember.

Q. More than once?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know? Did she try to help her?

A. Once in a while, yes.

Q. Did you say that your mother washed her hair one time for her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When Sylvia wanted it done?

A. Well, she - the water would get on her arms and slide off her elbows. Mom was rinsing her hair for her.

Q. Sylvia wanted her to rinse her hair?

A. Yes.

Q. Did your mother ever fix Sylvia's foot?

A. Not that I can remember of.

Q. You don't remember that? Did your mother fix any wounds of Sylvia's face with alcohol?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times?

A. Quite a few times.

Q. You saw that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, I think you testified on one occasion you heard your mother say something like this, "Sylvia, I am going to take you out to the Center". Did she say that?

A. Yes.

Q. When did she say that?

A. A few weeks before she died.

Q. Do you know the reason why she said that?

A. Because she was angry at Sylvia about something.

Q. Now, is it a fact your mother was coughing and had difficulty breathing there, had a hard time breathing the last two or three weeks before Sylvia died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you know it is?

A. Because I would have to help her out on the porch to get a little air.

Q. You would have to help who?

A. Mom.

Q. Your mother? Now, did you testify that Miss MacGuire introduced Sylvia to your mother, did you say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because I was in there when Darlene MacGuire brung Sylvia in.

Q. Up to that time had Sylvia ever been in your house?

A. She has not been in our house before then.

Q. What was the occasion for the MacGuire girl bringing Sylvia in the house?

A. There was not no occasion.

Q. Was there any conversation about someone looking for Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the conversation? Who was present and where did it happen at?

A. Well, it happened on our porch.

Q. Your porch?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time of day or night?

A. I think it was 6:00 o 'clock at night.

Q. Before Sylvia started living there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was present?

A. A lady came up to - I mean every one of us were out on the porch.

Q. All of you were out on the porch?

A. Yes. This lady came up and pointed to Sylvia and said, "There is that girl that tried to take my husband away".

Q. Some lady said that?

A. Yes.

Q. You heard that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How old was this lady that said that?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did someone tell you to tell this story today?

A. No.

Q. You are telling the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was your mother at that time?

A. On the porch and that lady explained to Mom that Sylvia was running around with her husband.

Q. What did Sylvia say?

A. I can't remember.

Q. And is that when somebody said something about sending a note to somebody?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't remember that? Did your mother say anything to Sylvia about this woman?

A. I think she talked about it with Sylvia.

Q. Did your mother say anything to this woman in front of Sylvia about what the woman said?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you stay there all the time?

A. I was there.

Q. You were there?

A. Yes, but I had to go in the house.

Q. Were you out on the porch when this woman left?

A. I just came right after she left.

Q. Did your mother say anything to the MacGuire girl for bringing Sylvia there?

A. No.

Q. Was your mother on the porch when the MacGuire girl brought Sylvia on the porch?

A. The MacGuire girl knocked on the door and said, "May I come in"?

Q. Did she come in?

A. Mom told her to come in. Darlene introduced Sylvia to Mom in the house.

Q. How long did Sylvia and the MacGuire girl stay before the woman came up on the porch?

A. I don't know.

Q. Was Anna Siscoe there?

A. Yes.

Q. When was the first time you told this story about this woman to anybody? Today?

A. Yes, just today.

Q. On cross examination a while ago?

A. I don't know.

Q. It was told today?

A. Yes.

Q. It was not mentioned anytime yesterday?

A. No, not that I can remember of.

Q. Pardon?

A. Not that I can remember of.

Q. Besides the MacGuire girl and the Siscoe girl and the Lepper boy and Monroe boy, who came around the house?

A. Not anybody that I can remember of.

Q. Now, in the little room a while ago, when your attorney, Mr. Hammond, was there and I was there and your mother was there, did your mother say, "You knew you kids never minded me and I never knew where you were at" - did your mother say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you say?

A. I can't remember what I said.

Q. But your mother did say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anybody beat up on your mother - where she had to go to the hospital?

A. Well, I remember a policeman trying to got her out of me house once.

Q. When was that?

A. When they said she said something wrong to the paper boy and the paper boy reported to the editor and the policeman came in and drug Mom down the steps. That is all I can remember of that.

Q. Marie, when you told us yesterday that your mother was sick, were you telling the truth?

A. She has been sick.

Q. You are telling the truth now, she was sick, is that right?

A. Yes, she has been sick.

Q. Is that true?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, was your mother up every day walking around the house there?

A. She - once in a while she could not get up.

Q. Now, you want to tell the jury what her condition was for the week before Sylvia died?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. It is repetitions.

Q. Did anybody else do the spanking and correcting around there other than your mother?

A. Paula did.

Q. When?

A. Lots of times.

Q. Do you know if it is a fact, whether or not your mother was able to pick up little Denny and carry him around?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Once in a while she could pick him up and some of the other times she could not.

Q. Now, is it a fact that a lot of the kids, including you, did things behind your mother's back that she did not know anything about?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Do you know of your own knowledge whether any of the children lied to your mother?

MR. NEW: We object.

MR. BOWMAN: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you ever lie to your mother?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Once in a while. Not all the time.

Q. You would lie once in a while, would you?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know of your own knowledge if the other kids would lie?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you ever see your mother crying and complaining the kids would not behave?

A. Once.

Q. What?

A. Once.

Q. Is it a fact, now, Marie -

MR. BOWMAN: We object to the form of the question.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to the form of the question.

Q. Was your mother sick a day or two before Sylvia died?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. It is repetitious.

Q. Was Darlene MacGuire and Sylvia friends?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. They were pretty good friends.

Q. Did you say Darlene MacGuire beat Sylvia up and put cigarettes out on her - did you say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she?

A. Yes, sir, before then they were good friends, as far as I know.

Q. What happened that they fell out?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you ever hear your mother complaining she could not get her breath?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. You said that your mother told this to Sylvia, "You can't marry, you never can have children, can't undress" you said that, did you?

A. I think you asked the question and I answered it and she did say that.

Q. Your mother did say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She did not say it right away - it was a day later, was it?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. When was it?

A. A couple of days before she died.

Q. When did it happen?

A. She told her the next day after he marked her.

Q. She told her the next day?

A. Yes.

Q. As a matter of fact, your mother did not know what happened till the next day?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. How do you know she told her the next day?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. ERBECKER: Nothing more.

THE COURT: Any re-cross examination?

MR. NEW: Not anything further with this witness.

THE COURT: Any omitted questions on behalf of Paula Marie Baniszewski?

MR. RICE: We have no more questions of this little maid.

THE COURT: John Stephan Baniszewski or Coy Hubbard?

MR. BOWMAN: I have one.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. FORREST BOWMAN, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANTS,
COY HUBBARD AND JOHN STEPHAN BANISZEWSKI

Q. Marie, was your mother sick and weak when she got in a fight with the policeman?

A. She was out of breath.

Q. Was that before or after the fight?

A. She could not hardly get her breath the next morning.

Q. After?

A. After she struggled, Mom tried to tell us what to do while she went down and he would not give her a chance.

MR. BOWMAN: No more questions.

THE COURT: Richard Hobbs.

MR. NEDEFF: No questions, Your Honor.

WITNESS EXCUSED.
e-mail: webmaster@sylvialikens.com

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