Richard Hobbs - Defendant

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Richard Hobbs - Defendant

Postby admin » October 31st, 2010, 5:39 pm

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs may present his evidence.

MR. NEDEFF: Richard Hobbs.

WITNESS SWORN BY THE COURT.

RICHARD HOBBS , a witness called on behalf of the defendant Richard Hobbs,
being duly sworn by the court, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. JAMES NEDEFF, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
RICHARD HOBBS

Q. Ricky, tell the court your full name.

A. Richard Dean Hobbs.

Q. How old are you know?

A. Fifteen.

Q. Your nickname is Ricky?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where do you live?

A. 310 North Denny.

Q. How long have you lived there?

A. Fifteen years.

Q. That 310 North Denny Street is how many houses from New York Street?

A. It is one double and one single.

Q. That is the house the Baniszewskis' lived in, there was one house in between?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Between your home and the Baniszewski house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your back yard almost adjoined the back yard of the Baniszewski house?

A. Yes.

Q. You have lived there, you say, all your life?

A. Yes.

Q. October '65, how old were you?

A. Fourteen.

Q. Now, Ricky, when is the first time you became acquainted with the Baniszewskis'?

A. Sometime in late July, the latter part of July.

Q. What year?

A. '65.

Q. Now, was your acquaintanceship such as you were talking to them, visiting in the home, or see them in the neighborhood ?

A. Just seeing them in the neighborhood.

Q. At one time they lived on Bradley Street, what street is that from Denny Street?

A. One street west.

Q. Then that home on Bradley where the Baniszewskis' lived, actually an alley separated their back yard and your back yard?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, when they lived over there, did you know them personally, where you engaged in conversation, played with them?

A. No, sir.

Q. When did you become acquainted with them?

A. The latter part of July.

Q. Now, can you tell the court and jury here when you first visited in the home of the Baniszewskis'?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Who did you meet first?

A. I believe it was Johnny.

Q. Do you recall that incident, meeting him?

A. I believe I met him through a neighbor of mine, Steve Jewells.

Q. Now, you knew Anna Siscoe and the MacGuire kids?

A. Yes.

Q. The Monroes?

A. Yes.

Q. Randy Lepper?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you first meet Stephanie?

A. At the same time - well, I don't know exactly.

Q. When did you first see her?

A. Probably in August.

Q. What was the occasion of meeting her?

A. She was just there when I was.

Q. Now, in September 1965, can you tell the court if you got acquainted with Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that when you first got acquainted with her?

A. No, in the latter part of July.

Q. July?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was the occasion of you getting acquainted with her, through her children?

A. Well, I believe it was. I don't know exactly.

Q. How many times were you there in the Baniszewski house in July?

A. Maybe one or two.

Q. In August?

A. Maybe four or five times.

Q. Now, in September you started to school?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you have any idea how many times you might have visited or talked to Gertrude Baniszewski in September?

A. Not very many because school did start and I - you know - wanted to have a good start in school.

Q. Alright, now, taking you to October 23, 1965, which was on Saturday, did you have occasion to go to the Baniszewski house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was the reason for going there on that Saturday, October 23?

A. Just to visit.

Q. How did you come into the house?

A. Through the back entrance.

Q. That is the kitchen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were there in the kitchen? Who else was there?

A. Gertrude Baniszewski, Jenny, Shirley, Marie and Johnny. I believe that is all.

Q. Now, before going in the house that 23rd of October, 1965, do you recall how many times you had been there before that date in October?

A. No more than ten times.

Q. Now, going back to that Saturday, October 23, can you tell the court about what time of day it was?

A. Around 1:00 o'clock or 12:30.

Q. You went in the kitchen door?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was in the kitchen?

A. Gertrude Baniszewski, Jenny, Johnny, Shirley and Marie.

Q. Where was Sylvia?

A. Down in the basement.

Q. Did you know it at that time?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. When you first went in, did you talk to anybody in particular?

A. I asked Gertrude how she was, I believe, I don't remember exactly.

Q. You asked Gertrude who?

A. Baniszewski.

Q. Asked her what?

A. How she was.

Q. You mean Gertrude herself?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she say?

A. She told me she was not feeling well, she was having a hard time breathing.

Q. Where was she at?

A. Sitting at the kitchen table smoking.

Q. Now, was there any conversation about Sylvia Likens, there in the kitchen?

A. Not at that time.

Q. Then what was the next thing, after you inquired about Gertrude's health, what was said?

A. Pardon?

Q. After you inquired about Gertrude's health, what else after that was said or done?

A. I don't know exactly.

Q. Did Sylvia ever appear?

A. Pardon?

Q. Did you see Sylvia?

A. No, sir, not at that time.

Q. What was the conversation there in the kitchen, that Gertrude was having with the children about Sylvia?

MR. RICE: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Ricky, what did Gertrude say about Sylvia?

A. At this time?

Q. Yes.

A. She told me that she was not at the Juvenile Canter, she was down in the basement.

Q. When had she told you Sylvia was at the Juvenile Center?

A. The time before I was over there, the time before that I was over there. I would not know when that was.

Q. Previous to this Saturday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what happened?

A. I think that is when she called Sylvia up.

Q. Called Sylvia up from where?

A. From the basement.

Q. Sylvia came up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what was said or done?

A. Someone asked Sylvia how she was feeling.

Q. Who asked that question, do you know?

A. I don't recall.

Q. What did Sylvia say, if you remember? Do you remember?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Alright, what else was said and done?

A. Well, I asked her when she got home from the Juvenile Center and she said about a week before.

Q. Who said that?

A. Gertrude.

Q. Now, was there any conversation about Sylvia calling Stephanie and Paula prostitutes?

MR. NEW: We object. That is leading.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It is leading.

Q. Was there any conversation after the inquiry had been made of Sylvia's health?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Now, did anyone else come there to the kitchen?

A. At this time?

Q. Yes.

A. No, sir.

Q. Alright, was anything else said by you to Gertrude?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Did Gertrude say something to you?

A. I don't recall exactly, sir.

Q. How was Sylvia dressed when she came up from the basement?

A. She had kind of a pink pair of bermuda shorts on. I believe a yellow blouse.

Q. Alright, was anything said to her then?

A. When she came up?

Q. Yes.

A. She was asked how she felt.

Q. Was anything else said to her by anyone?

A. I am sorry, I don't recall.

Q. Now, did anyone tell her to take her clothes off?

MR. NEW: We object. It is leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Where was she standing there in the kitchen?

A. By the door that enters into the dining room, that was at that time her bedroom, Gertrude's bedroom, and the basement door.

Q. Was there any conversation between Sylvia at that time and Gertrude.

A. Pardon?

Q. Was there any conversation between Sylvia and Gertrude at that time?

A. Not that I recall, sir.

Q. Did Gertrude say anything to Sylvia?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Now, Ricky, tell me who else was there in the kitchen?

A. Johnny, Jenny, Marie -

Q. Did they engage in any conversation with one another?

A. Just a general conversation. Jenny and Marie were getting ready to go out and rake leaves.

Q. Who was?

A. Jenny and Marie.

Q. What was the next thing done there in the kitchen?

A. Sorry, I don't recall.

Q. Did anyone take their clothes off?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It is a leading question.

Q. Now, Ricky, this is October 23, on Saturday afternoon. You are there in the kitchen of the Baniszewski house. What happened there?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. It is repetitious.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I don't understand your question.

Q. What happened there in the kitchen.

MR. ERBECKER: Same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled. He did not understand the question.

Q. Sylvia came up from the basement. What happened after that?

A. Well, we started talking and somehow the conversation got around to tattooing and Gertrude asked me if I knew how a tattoo was put on a person and I told her "yes" and she asked Sylvia if she knew what a tattoo was and she said "yes" so she said something like. "Well, you branded my children so now I am going to brand you".

Q. Who said that?

A. Gertrude.

Q. She said that to whom?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Then what happened?

A. She had Marie or Shirley go get a needle - they had a sewing kit, a little plastic box. Gertrude had Marie or Shirley go get that.

Q. A minute, Ricky, what did Gertrude mean by "branded my children and I am going to brand you"?

MR. NEW: We object.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Is that what was said?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then she sent whom for what?

A. Either Marie or Shirley, to get - they had a sewing kit in a little plastic box that had needles and thread and stuff like that.

Q. That was brought in the kitchen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Gertrude selected a sewing needle and said she was going to brand her with it.

Q. Did she?

A. She started to.

Q. What did she do?

A. She told Sylvia to take her clothes off and Sylvia started and she was moving kind of slow and Gertrude said she was not doing it fast enough and she ran over and ripped her blouse off her.

Q. Then what happened?

A. She started to let her shorts down and she was going to hold them just right below her lower abdomen and Gertrude said, "Go ahead and drop them" so she dropped them.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Gertrude pulled up a chair in front of her and started - well before this they made out - got a little scrap of paper and wrote down on the paper what she was going to put on Sylvia's stomach.

Q. Who did that?

A. I believe we all contributed to it.

Q. Then what happened?

A. She started - first she went over with a ball point pen the outline of it.

Q. Who did that?

A. I think it was Gertrude.

Q. Then what happened?

A. She started going over the letters with a needle.

Q. What words or letters did she put on?

A. She put on the letter I and the diagonal line on the letter A.

Q. Alright, then what happened?

A. She said she was getting sick so she handed me the needle and told me to finish it.

Q. Now, this letter I and the diagonal part of the other letter, that was put on with a needle?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was it heated?

A. No, sir.

Q. Alright, then she handed the needle to you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you do?

A. I took the needle. I had Marie go get me matches from her mom's bedroom.

Q. Then what?

A. Well, I had Marie light one of the matches and I sterilized the needle in it and then I went ahead and started.

Q. Did you pierce her skin with that needle?

A. No, sir.

Q. How did you do it?

A. I etched little short strokes, short like strokes.

Q. And you finished it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, had you heated the needle any more after that first time?

A. I believe I did one or two times.

Q. Then you heated it no more than once or twice?

A. No, sir.

Q. The rest of it you scratched on, etched on?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, at any time did any blood come?

A. It did not flow freely. It just some places showed up on her skin.

Q. Was that just from scratching?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you put the needle in deep?

A. No, sir.

MR. NEW: Your Honor, this is leading the witness.

THE COURT: Overruled as to that question.

Q. Alright, then what happened after that?

A. Randy Lepper came and knocked on the door.

Q. Where was Sylvia at that time?

A. Sylvia was standing between the entry to the dining room and the entry to the basement.

Q. Did he come in?

A. Gertrude told Sylvia to go down on the landing and told me and Shirley to take her downstairs and stand on the landing because she did not want Randy to see her undressed.

Q. Randy was the boy that lived across the street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Randy came in?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Well, I was down in the basement. I don't know what happened upstairs. We took her downstairs and about two minutes later Gertrude called us back upstairs and Randy was still there and she showed him what we had done.

Q. Who showed Randy?

A. No one in particular. Sylvia just stood there and let him look.

Q. Now, down in the basement that day, did you do anything to Sylvia Likens?

A. Not at that time.

Q. Later on that day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What?

A. After Randy had been there about fifteen minutes, we took her down in the basement again and I don't know who thought of it. We had an eyehook and we heated it up with matches and branded an S on her stomach.

Q. You say "we"?

A. Yes.

Q. Who do you mean by "we"?

A. Shirley and I -

Q. You did part?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What part did you do?

A. The upper curve of the S.

Q. Shirley did what?

A. The lower part.

Q. How was that done?

A. Hold the eyehook and light two or three matches at a time and hold them under the eyehook.

Q. Then what happened?

A. After what?

Q. What did you do then?

A. After that I took her upstairs and showed Gertrude and it was getting kind of late and I went home.

Q. What time was it?

A. About fifteen after 4:00.

Q. You went home?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was the next occasion for you to be over there?

A. Tuesday.

Q. You were not over there the next day, Sunday?

A. No, sir.

Q. The next day after that was Monday?

A. No, sir.

Q. What time did you go over there Tuesday?

A. Well, first I went over after school, just dropped in to say "Hi".

Q. What time was that?

A. 4:00 o'clock.

Q. That was after school then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you stay?

A. No longer than five minutes.

Q. What did you do then after you stopped there?

A. Went on home.

Q. What did you do at your home?

A. Changed from my school clothes to other clothes, I guess you call them play clothes.

Q. When you arrived at your home, who was there?

A. My mother had gone to the hospital the day before, I think, so I think Paula or Barbara was there, my sisters.

Q. Your two sisters?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was your dad home?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where was he at, if you know?

A. He was at work.

Q. What did you do at the house?

A. Changed clothes and started on my homework and ate my dinner.

Q. Did you have any other occasion to go back to the Baniszewski house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was that occasion?

A. Around 5:30 at night.

Q. When you went over there then at 5:30 or so, who was there?

A. As far as I remember right now, Gertrude and Stephanie was there.

Q. And how did you go into that house?

A. Through the back door.

Q. Where was Sylvia at that time?

A. She was laying on the kitchen floor on the blanket.

Q. Who was in the kitchen with her?

A. Gertrude and Stephanie.

Q. Where were they at in relation to Sylvia?

A. Gertrude was over on the east wall by the basement door and she was crying. She was scared and Stephanie was kneeling down beside Sylvia.

Q. Alright, what did you do at that time?

A. I asked what was the matter and Stephanie started crying that she was dead.

Q. Where was Gertrude?

A. Still at the east wall.

Q. Then what happened?

A. I went over beside Sylvia and she was breathing labored.

Q. What do you mean by that?

A. Well, like she had something stuck in her throat or just anything - she was having trouble inhaling and exhaling.

Q. What did you do next?

A. I knelt down beside her and started - first I pushed under her, you know, with the flat of my hands and tried to get her breathing easier. That did not help any and I gave her mouth to mouth resuscitation. That did not do much better, but she started breathing a little easier.

Q. Did she any time say anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. Then what did you do after you tried artificial respiration?

A. Stephanie - first I noticed her skin was cold. I thought a warm bath might help some and Stephanie ran upstairs and turned the warm water on and came back down and her and I carried her upstairs.

Q. You and Stephanie carried Sylvia upstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. Johnny was there. We laid her down outside the kitchen door and Johnny was in there watching the water and when it got high enough he turned if off and told us it was alright. Stephanie started to undress her and Gertrude said to put her in with her clothes on.

Q. Did you feel the water in the tub?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was it hot or warm or what?

A. It was lukewarm.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Johnny and Stephanie laid her in the bathtub.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Stephanie told me to get Gertrude downstairs because she was too frantic. I had my time taken up keeping her downstairs.

Q. Before you took Sylvia upstairs to the bathroom, had you had a conversation with Gertrude?

A. Not much.

Q. Was there any conversation about you saying to her to call the police or hospital?

A. Now, sir.

Q. When did that conversation take place?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It assumes something.

Q. Let's go back upstairs. What was done after she was put in the bathtub?

A. Johnny and Stephanie stayed upstairs with her and I took Gertrude downstairs.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. She kept wanting to get back upstairs and I had to stand in her way so she could not get back up.

Q. Did you have conversation with her - Gertrude?

A. Well, all this time she kept yelling she was faking. I asked Gertrude to call the police because - I don't know why.

Q. Why did you not go to call the police?

MR. NEW: We object. That is a conclusion.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Then what was said by you?

A. Well, I heard Stephanie upstairs taking her out of the water and I could hear this - I did not see it. I could hear Johnny and Stephanie carrying her from the bathroom to the bedroom.

Q. Alright, then what did you do?

A. I was still downstairs keeping Gertrude down there.

Q. Did you hear anything?

A. After a while I heard Stephanie crying that she was dead. Johnny came running downstairs and said she was dead.

Q. What did you do?

A. Johnny and I went to call the police.

Q. Where did you go?

A. We headed southeast to the Shell Filling Station to the pay phone in front of that station.

Q. Then what did you do? Did you make the call yourself?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. Johnny and I ran back across the street and waited on the front porch till the police car came.

Q. How long before the first police car arrived was it?

A. Two minutes. It was there fast.

Q. You saw it approaching from where?

A. Heading north on Denny.

Q. Once the police arrived there, what did you do or say?

A. Well, we took them upstairs and showed them where Sylvia was and he told us to get downstairs. We had to get a light bulb for the room because the light bulb got broken somehow.

Q. What did you do after that?

A. He told us all to get downstairs and two minutes later he came downstairs and went out and radioed someplace.

Q. Did you go anyplace all that time?

A. No, sir, just stayed downstairs.

Q. How long did you stay downstairs?

A. I don't know exactly how long it was. Five or six policemen were there by the time I left.

Q. When did you go home?

A. Well, the policeman - he was a plainclothes policeman was chasing everybody out of the house who were not members of the family, so I left.

Q. And you went home then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you stay home?

A. Well, this was 7:30 because Lloyd Thaxton was still on television and I went home and watched the rest of Lloyd Thaxton. It went off at 8:00 o'clock. I went upstairs and I was watching Lloyd Thaxton down in our basement.

Q. That program was off at 8:00 o'clock?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. I went upstairs and my sisters were all gathered on the back porch looking down toward New York Street and asked me if I knew what was going on.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. You were on the back porch then - what did you do?

A. My sisters asked me -

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: He said what did you do, not what was said.

A. I went down there.

Q. Now, before you left the house there, who was at home at that time?

A. Barbara and Paula and Jenny, Kevin and Brian.

Q. This was 8:00 o'clock?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was your father home?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where was he at, if you know?

A. He was at the hospital to see Mom.

Q. Your Mom had been in the hospital?

A. Since Sunday, I believe, I am not sure.

Q. Then eventually the policeman came and talked to you?

A. No, sir. I went on down there and a policeman came out on the front porch and asked if there was a Richard Hobbs in the crowd. I went on in there and they set me down in the kitchen and asked me some questions.

Q. Alright, then what happened?

A. Well, after they were finished, I talked to Sgt. Kaiser and I told him my dad did not allow me to stay out too late. I imagine that was fifteen till 9:00.

Q. Did you have conversation with Detective Kaiser?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did he say to you and -

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Then what happened then?

A. Well, he said I could go home and I went home.

Q. He say anything else to you?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Yes or no.

Q. Did he say - Sgt. William Kaiser - say anything else to you?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. After I went home?

Q. You went on home then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Alright, now did you have occasion to talk to a police officer that evening?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, what was that occasion?

A. Well, I went to bed around 9:00 o'clock and I was talking to my brothers upstairs when I heard the front door bell ring. A policeman - I imagine it was a policeman - at that time I did not know but I thought it was, came to the front door and Dad answered and the policeman asked for me.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. The policeman asked for me. I heard him. I got up and got dressed and went on downstairs.

Q. You went downstairs and the policeman was there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. They took me out - they had me empty all the things out of my pockets and they took me and set me out in the patrol car out in the street on the corner of Denny and New York.

Q. Then eventually they took you to police headquarters?

A. Not directly. We had gotten half way there when they were radioed back to 3850 East New York.

Q. You came back to that address?

A. To pick up John.

Q. You went back and John was put in the car?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were both taken to police headquarters?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, did you know Gertrude Wright very well?

A. Fairly well.

Q. Did you have any conversation with her over this period in the summer and early fall?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you think of her?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What was the conversation you had with her?

MR. RICE: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Time and place.

Q. In September, did you have conversation with her anytime about her -

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Ricky, where do you go to school?

A. Howe.

Q. What grade are you in?

A. Stale freshman.

Q. You have any brothers and sisters?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many brothers?

A. Four brothers and four sisters.

Q. What is the youngest brother or sister and the oldest brother or sister?

A. Names or ages?

Q. Ages.

A. The youngest brother is four and the oldest brother is twenty-one and the youngest sister is nineteen and the oldest is twenty-three, I believe.

Q. Now, the oldest brother - was he in Vietnam at that time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. He is the oldest brother?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who is next in age?

A. Seventeen.

Q. Who was that?

A. Don.

Q. Now, what is your father's name?

A. Woodrow Hobbs.

Q. And your mother's name?

A. Waneta.

Q. Now, how long had your mother been in the hospital prior to the time she was taken there October? Had she been in the hospital any time in the month of October other than the Sunday you said she went to the hospital?

A. I believe she was there the first of October.

Q. How long was she there?

A. I can't recall.

Q. Do you know why she was in the hospital?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was that?

A. She had cancer.

Q. Now, can you tell the court when your mother died?

A. It was November.

Q. Was it November 8th?

A. I believe so.

Q. Where were you at then?

A. In the detention ward of Marion County General Hospital.

Q. Now, how long had your mother been ill with cancer?

A. I believe a little over a year - a little under a year.

Q. Did you, in October, know her condition?

A. I knew her condition. I did not know it was as bad as it was.

Q. Now, the time from October 26, when you were locked up, did you ever have occasion to see her before she died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. I don't know the exact dates, but they woke me up two nights and let me go up to see her sit Community Hospital.

Q. What time of night was that?

A. Once around 11:00 o'clock or 11:30 and the next night around 10:30.

Q. And that - those visits were at Community Hospital?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She died there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, at that time, any time during her last sickness, did she know your difficulty, that you were locked up?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, Ricky, why is it your are in the detention ward at General Hospital?

A. I am a diabetic.

Q. How long have you been diabetic?

A. Since I was nine.

Q. That requires insulin each day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And other specialized treatment?

A. Special diet.

Q. What kind of grades did you make there at school, Ricky?

A. Either B-minus or C-plus - average.

Q. You attended church in that neighborhood?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Which church?

A. Grace Methodist.

Q. How long have you been a member of that church?

A. Since I was five or six, I imagine.

Q. Did you attend church regularly there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did you engage in any extra activities there at the church?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was that?

A. I was a member of M.Y.F., Methodist Youth Fellowship.

Q. How long did you belong to that?

A. Since the first of '65.

Q. And did you engage there in any kind of projects there at the church?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In October, were you engaged in any particular project?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What were they?

A. We had some sort of drive for - I forget what it was - I had to build - first I was going to build a miniature lighthouse for the drive to get money to run the church. I was supposed to build a full sized model of a lighthouse to enter in a contest.

Q. Any other activities?

A. I had been a waiter at a spaghetti dinner and I was going to be a waiter at another spaghetti dinner.

Q. In the summertime, did you engage in any school activities or what did you do - work in the summer?

A. No, sir.

Q. Have you ever been in any kind of trouble before?

A. No, sir.

Q. Have you ever been arrested for anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. Other than this?

A. No, sir.

Q. How long have you been locked up?

A. Since October 26, six months and two weeks.

Q. Now, Ricky, let me ask you this. Did you ever strike Sylvia Likens with a broom or paddle or club or board?

MR. NEW: We object. It is leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever burn her?

A. Not with cigarettes. Just with the eyehook.

Q. That was the only time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You have heard testimony here in the courtroom, the words used about branding, carving and cutting?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Other than heating the eyehook, did you ever burn her other than with the eyehook, the part of the 3 or S on her lower abdomen?

A. No, sir.

Q. You have heard testimony in the past week from some of the witnesses that you knocked her down?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever do that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever burn her with cigarettes?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever tie her up?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you push her down some stairs?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever flip her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, did you ever strike her with your hand?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. That same Saturday.

Q. There in the kitchen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you recall how many times you think you struck her?

A. Maybe four or five times.

Q. How was that? How did you do that?

A. With the back of my hands.

Q. How?

A. With the back of my hand.

Q. Then the only time you ever done anything to that girl was that Saturday?

A. And that Tuesday.

Q. That Tuesday and Saturday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever hit her on that Tuesday?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did you do Tuesday to her?

A. In what way?

Q. Did you touch her, hit her, strike her?

A. I carried her and -

Q. You helped carry her upstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times did you administer artificial respiration to her?

A. Twenty times.

Q. Where did that take place?

A. Down in the kitchen.

Q. Your father has been here in the courtroom every day you have been down here on trial?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, did you have occasion to talk to your father October 26, there at home?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was that at, what time was it?

A. Well, after I got back from - after Sgt. Kaiser said I could go home, I went home and told my sisters.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to conversation.

Q. Did you talk to your father there at the house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you meet him?

A. I and my sister met him at the garage.

Q. When he was coming from where?

A. The hospital.

Q. Now, when was the next time you talked to him?

A. The next morning.

Q. Let me ask you this, Ricky, why did you strike Sylvia those times that you said on Saturday - why would you put those letters on her stomach?

A. I don't know.

Q. Let me ask you again, Ricky, why did you strike her with the back of your hand and why did you scratch on her abdomen those words?

MR. ERBECKER: We object. He said he did not know.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Gertrude told me to do this on her abdomen. I don't know why I hit her.

Q. Now, you gave Detective Kaiser a statement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was done when?

A. The 27th.

Q. Now, you have had an opportunity to read that statement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was in that statement - is that the truth?

A. I don't recall some of the things.

Q. What was that?

A. I said I saw Coy Hubbard hit her. I don't recall that.

Q. Let me ask you this, Ricky. In that statement you where you struck her ten to fifteen times.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, is that true?

A. Not as far as I remember.

Q. Did you have an opportunity to read that statement before you signed it?

A. Yes, sir. I read it and it was read to me at the same time.

Q. Now, did you give any other statements to Detective Kaiser?

A. No, sir, just that one.

Q. To your knowledge, Sylvia Likens was alive when you made the second trip over there October 26, at 5:30?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you tell your Dad about what you had done?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. What did I tell him?

Q. When did you tell him?

A. The 27th, the next morning.

Q. Where was that at?

A. It was someplace in the City-County Building. I don't know where it was.

Q. Now, when he came from the hospital there, from Community Hospital there October 26th, did you tell him then when you met him there at the garage when he came from the hospital?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes, sir. I did not tell him the truth then.

Q. What did you tell him?

A. I told him Sylvia came to the back door around 5:30 with a note pinned to her, that she had been beat up by a bunch of boys.

Q. What did he say or do?

MR. ERBECKER: We object, unless it was in the presence of the defendant.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to defendant Gertrude Baniszewski. Overruled as to the defendant himself. You may answer.

A. He did not take much notice. He was too worried about Mom.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen, you will ignore the question and answer in arriving at a verdict as to defendant Gertrude Baniszewski. Next question, Mr. Nedeff.

Q. Now, Ricky, what you have testified to here on the stand this afternoon and in your statement - is that, to your knowledge, the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then on the 27th when you talked to Detective Sgt. Kaiser and your father, you gave Detective Sgt. Kaiser that statement, is that true?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was the truth?

A. I am not sure about all of it. Most of it was. What is it you are not certain about?

Q. Some of it says I said - like I said I saw Paula hit her and Coy hit her.

A. Yes.

Q. What you testified you did to Sylvia Likens, that you testified to this afternoon, is that the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, you no time ever refused to cooperate with the police?

MR. NEW: We object. That would be a conclusion whether he was cooperating or not.

THE COURT: Overruled. Read the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. No, sir.

MR. NEDEFF: No other questions.

THE COURT: The State of Indiana may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. LEROY NEW,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. You stated, Mr. Hobbs, that Sylvia Likens never did anything to you, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I will hand you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 19 and I will ask you to look at that, sir, do you see that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know who that is?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who is that?

A. Sylvia Likens.

Q. I would like for you to indicate if you will, please, will you step down here. I will hold this in my hands. State's Exhibit No. 19 and I would like you to indicate, if you will, what part of this particular body of Sylvia Likens you mutilated, cut or burned.

A. The words "I am a prostitute and proud of it" and the top part of the 3.

Q. Anything else?

A. No.

Q. What part? I will ask you to look at that exhibit and tell if that is the way she looked when you actually put the brand or whatever you call it on her?

A. No, sir.

Q. She did not look that way?

A. She did not look that bad.

Q. What did you see. Did you see - what did you see on this particular picture when you were putting the tattoo on her Saturday?

A. I don't know exactly.

Q. Did you see the craters, gouges, burns, when you added the words "I am a prostitute and proud of it"?

A. Some of the things were all around.

Q. They were all there then, is that correct?

A. Not all of them.

Q. How many would you say were not there? Do you see any particular thing that was not there?

A. A fourth of them were there.

Q. The skin on the side of the face - was it that way?

A. No, sir.

Q. The skin along the shoulder on the left side. Was that the way you can see there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was the puffiness around the genitalia - was it there?

A. No, sir.

Q. It was not there? Were these bruises along the ankle up to the hip on the left leg there?

A. I don't believe so.

Q. You said she was undressed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were they there or weren't they?

A. I don't know.

Q. Don't you remember? You said you struck her four or five times.

A. I struck her on the chest.

Q. Did you hit her anywhere else?

A. No.

Q. At the time you struck her on the chest, had the skin peeled off as you see it there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was there any skin peeled of at the time you struck her there?

A. No.

Q. Were any of the gouges and bruises there on the upper part?

A. Some of them.

Q. Do you recall, what were there when you hit her with the back of your hand?

A. There.

Q. Is that a cut or bruise or burn?

A. A cut.

Q. Did you do that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know who did?

A. No.

Q. It was there when you struck her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You say her face was not in this condition. Was her lip intact?

A. I did not notice.

Q. You see the bruises from her wrist to the shoulder on the left arm?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were they there?

A. Some on the shoulder but not all the way down the arm.

Q. Were these burns and lesions, what have been identified by the pathologist as cigarette burns, there?

A. Not all of them.

Q. You see the condition of the girl's body. She was thin, emaciated. Was she like that when you saw her on Saturday?

A. She was not that bad.

Q. She lost weight after you hit her?

A. Yes.

Q. You see extensive bruises on the inside of the legs below the genitalia there, heavy bruises starting with the hip?

A. Yes.

Q. You were tattooing just above that. Did you see those bruises then?

A. No.

Q. Were they there?

A. No.

Q. There are bruises all along the right inside leg. Were they there?

A. No.

Q. You see various marks below the knee and one on top of each knee. Were they there?

A. This one was. The rest were not.

Q. You are pointing to a cut or whatever the mark is, on the right knee, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. How about the backs of her hands? They are bruised - both backs of her hands. Were they that way when you struck her on Saturday?

A. I did not notice.

Q. Did you look?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you look at her before you hit her or after you hit her?

A. Before and after.

Q. Both?

A. Yes.

Q. You say you did not see these bruises?

A. No.

Q. O.K. Now, sir, I will hand you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 3. I will ask you to examine that. You have testified you put the top part of the S. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Up there. How did you happen to select that spot? Did any particular thing cause you to brand her there instead of some other place on the body?

A. No, sir.

Q. Will you indicate to the jury the part of the lettering Gertrude might have put on the body that you testified to?

A. Right there, the "I" and that part there.

Q. Are you indicating the first line of "am"?

A. Yes.

Q. And the letter "I"?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know that? How do you know?

A. Because that is where I started.

Q. Do you notice here that there is skin that has been removed and all of the upper part of the body here?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was that there when you branded her?

A. The skin was scalded some places.

Q. Did she have skin on the upper part of her chest?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she have skin on her face?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You see this deep crater her on her left elbow?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see that there then?

A. I did not notice.

Q. You see a massive bruise on the inside left elbow. Was that there?

A. I did not notice.

Q. The heavy bruise on the left hip bone. Was that there when you branded her?

A. Not that I can recall.

Q. The deep cut approximately three inches long on the left wrist. Was that there when you branded her?

A. I believe it was.

Q. Do you know who put it there?

A. No.

Q. You see the deep cut on the left wrist. Was that there when you branded her?

A. I don't know.

Q. So, in other words, Mr. Hobbs, there were massive cuts and bruises about her body when you were adding this brand?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, sir, I will hand you what is marked for identification State's Exhibit No. 11. Do you see that there, sir?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see that before?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you first see it?

A. Down in the basement.

Q. I can't hear you sir.

A. Down in the basement of the Baniszewski home.

Q. When did you first see it?

A. Saturday, October 23.

Q. You never saw it before that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where was it when you first saw it?

A. In Shirley Baniszewski's hand, I think.

Q. Was Shirley holding it in her hand first?

A. She is the one that handed it to me.

Q. Did she say anything?

A. Somehow the conversation had gotten around to marking her with it. She was looking for something to do it.

Q. How did the conversation get to it?

A. I don't know.

Q. What was said?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Did anybody say anything before Shirley handed you this iron?

A. Something must have been said. I don't recall what it was.

Q. Were they talking to you?

A. We were all talking together.

Q. It was your idea to brand this girl?

A. No, sir.

Q. How do you know that if you don't know how the conversation started?

A. It may have been my idea.

Q. It probably was, wasn't it?

A. I can't say.

Q. You had just gotten through, ten minutes before, scratching words on her stomach?

A. Yes.

Q. You went on down in the basement deliberately, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. You were not forced to go down by Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did though, on your own?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You told Sylvia to go on a head of you, did you?

A. I believe I went first and she was in the middle of Shirley and I.

Q. She was behind you?

A. Yes.

Q. You did not take her by the arm and force her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did anybody take her by the arm and force her?

A. No, sir.

Q. When you got down there, you went down for a purpose?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. At the time you went downstairs, it was the idea to put some further mutilation or brand on this girl?

A. No, sir.

Q. What was your reason for going down there at all?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. What do you mean? You went ahead of Shirley. Do you have a lapse of memory or don't know?

A. I don't know.

Q. How close was Sylvia behind you?

A. I was walking faster than she was.

Q. She was undressed completely?

A. Yes.

Q. You had already scratched words on her stomach?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. With a hot needle?

A. No, sir.

Q. With a needle?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you say the needle was heated?

A. It cooled before I started.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because I sit and held it till it cooled.

Q. Which end did you hold?

A. The one with the eye.

Q. Not the hot end?

A. No, sir.

Q. You don't know that the hot end cooled?

A. I touched it to myself.

Q. Why heat it if you were going to let it cool?

A. To sterilize it.

Q. You did that more than once?

A. Two or three times.

Q. Who held the match?

A. I believe Marie or Shirley.

Q. That was your idea to heat the needle?

A. Yes.

Q. You wanted the needle to be clean?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, it was heated at least two or three times?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Blood came when you tore the girl's skin?

A. No, sir.

Q. You said it did.

A. It did not run freely. It was under the skin.

Q. I asked if it came.

A. Yes.

Q. It did?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did Sylvia do when you were bringing this blood to her skin?

A. She flinched.

Q. It hurt her?

A. I imagine.

Q. Did she say it hurt her?

A. No.

Q. Did you ask her?

A. No, sir.

Q. What you did was hit her four or five times with the back of your hand?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You went on and she continued to flinch and you continued to brand her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It was after that you went down in the basement and put the hot iron on her chest?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It was your idea?

A. I don't know.

Q. Gertrude Baniszewski did not make you do that, did she?

A. No, sir.

Q. She did not even go with you?

A. No.

Q. It was your idea entirely?

A. I don't know.

Q. Was it Shirley's idea?

A. I don't know.

Q. Who went down with you besides Shirley and Sylvia?

A. I believe that was all.

Q. Just you two?

A. I believe.

Q. Now, how did you heat the iron marked State's Exhibit No. 11?

A. Three or four matches at a time.

Q. That is not the truth, is it, Mr. Hobbs? You heated it by burning paper?

A. No.

Q. Did you hear Marie's testimony there was paper lit in the sink?

A. Yes.

Q. Several newspapers?

A. Yes.

Q. Quite a flame and you put the iron in it till it got hot?

A. No, sir.

Q. That is not true?

A. No, sir.

Q. Mr. Hobbs, I will hand you what is marked for the purpose of identification as State's Exhibit No. 6. I will ask you to look at the sink. You will find something that appears there. Did you ever see this before?

A. I don't believe I have.

Q. You know where the sink is?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where is it?

A. On the north wall of the Baniszewski basement.

Q. Was there anything like that in it while you were branding Sylvia?

A. I did not look in there. I could not tell you.

Q. Where was Sylvia when you were putting the brand on?

A. About the center of the floor.

Q. Very close to that sink, would it be?

A. Not really.

Q. How close was she from that sink?

A. She was about maybe seven or eight feet away from the sink.

Q. Which way?

A. West.

Q. Alright, then when you go downstairs in the Baniszewski house to the basement, what is the first thing you see if you proceed straight?

A. The wall.

Q. Which way did you turn?

A. Left.

Q. How far did you go left?

A. Until I was facing the west wall.

Q. Then where did you go?

A. I walked straight.

Q. How far?

A. Six feet.

Q. Did Sylvia follow you?

A. I imagine she did.

Q. How did she know where to go?

A. I imagine she was following me.

Q. You imagine? You told her, didn't you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you tell her where to go, what to do?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hold her?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did she do?

A. She followed me.

Q. You went about six feet from the bottom of the stairway, correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what did she do?

A. She stood there.

Q. Facing you?

A. She turned around and faced us.

Q. Why did she do that?

A. I have no idea.

Q. Did you say anything to her?

A. No, sir.

Q. You told her to?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did Shirley do?

A. She was standing next to me.

Q. Was Sylvia tied any way?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was she dressed?

A. No, sir.

Q. No clothes at all?

A. No, sir.

Q. She just stood there facing you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you do?

A. I don't recall.

Q. You recall she faced you but you don't recall what you did. Is that your testimony?

A. What I said?

Q. What did you do? I did not ask what you said. What did you do?

A. I believe I set down in a chair they had down there.

Q. Did she sit down?

A. No, sir.

Q. She stood up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Why did you sit?

A. I don't know.

Q. But you sat down. Then what did you do?

A. I set down.

Q. Did you do anything else besides just sit there?

A. I talked.

Q. What did you say?

A. I don't recall.

Q. What did you talk about?

A. I believe we talked about Sylvia.

Q. You say "we talked about Sylvia", who is we?

A. Shirley and I.

Q. What did you say. What was the subject of the conversation?

A. I don't recall exactly.

Q. You don't even know what you were talking about?

A. No, sir.

Q. It was about Sylvia?

A. I believe it was.

Q. What about Sylvia?

A. I don't recall.

Q. You don't recall what you were talking about?

A. No, sir.

Q. How long did you sit in the chair?

A. Maybe five minutes.

Q. Did you do anything in that five minutes?

A. Yes, talked.

Q. With who?

A. Shirley.

Q. Did you talk to Sylvia? Did she talk to you?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she say?

A. I don't recall.

Q. You don't have any idea what Sylvia said after you had done this to her stomach?

A. That is right.

Q. I will hand you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 23 - do you know who that is?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who is that?

A. Sylvia Marie Likens.

Q. Is that the girl you were talking about you did this to?

A. Yes.

Q. You don't recall what you said to her before you put the hot iron on her chest?

A. No, sir.

Q. It does not come to you?

A. No, sir.

Q. She stood there five minutes while you were sitting on the chair?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Somehow the conversation got around to branding her.

Q. You don't know how the conversation got there, I think you said?

A. No, sir.

Q. O.K. She stood there all this time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what happened?

A. We started looking for something to brand her with.

Q. Who is we?

A. Shirley and I.

Q. Did you look?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you look?

A. On the right hand of the basement stairs.

Q. What were you looking for?

A. A piece of metal.

Q. Did you find anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. Shirley did?

A. Yes.

Q. How soon did she find something?

A. I don't recall exactly.

Q. She found State's Exhibit No. 11, is that your testimony?

A. Yes, sir, she found two things.

Q. What else did she find besides Exhibit No. 11?

A. It was a long poker.

Q. How long was it?

A. Three or four feet.

Q. Did she bring that to you also?

A. She showed it to me. She did not bring it to me.

Q. What did you say?

A. I selected this.

Q. You selected this, so it was your choice to use State's Exhibit No. 11 to brand her with?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Shirley went up and got more matches.

Q. Did you ask her to?

A. I Imagine I did.

Q. What did Sylvia say while she was doing this?

A. She did not say anything.

Q. Did she make any sound?

A. No.

Q. Did she have on any clothes?

A. I believe she was standing on her clothes.

Q. How did they get down there?

A. She carried then down when we came down from upstairs.

Q. She put them on the floor and stood on them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you shoes on?

A. Yes.

Q. You had clothes?

A. Yes.

Q. While - neither of you said anything, while Shirley went upstairs?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Had she been able to hear your conversation with Shirley that you were about to brand her with a hot poker or screwhook?

A. I imagine.

Q. She did not move?

A. No.

Q. She stood there?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you explain why she stood there at that time?

A. I can't explain.

Q. What did she look like?

A. She was just standing there.

Q. Who was she looking at?

A. She was looking at me when I was there and Shirley and I when Shirley was there.

Q. Did she beg you not to do that, did she?

A. No, sir.

Q. She did not say a word to you?

A. No, sir.

Q. You just said she did but you did not remember what it was.

A. You asked if she begged us not to do it and she did not.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because I would remember something like that.

Q. Why would you remember that?

A. Because I doubt if I would do something someone begged me to stop.

Q. I think you would know you did something wrong.

A. Yes.

Q. Did Shirley come back with the matches?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What happened?

A. I took three or four matched and lit them.

Q. O.K. Was that where Sylvia could see it?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she say anything else?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she do anything else?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she try to back away?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear Marie's testimony she was being held and she tried to turn so the hot iron would not touch her chest and could not turn?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was that true?

A. No, she was standing up.

Q. You put the hot iron to her chest?

A. Yes.

Q. You branded what you call a letter "S", is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did Sylvia do or say?

A. She flinched.

Q. How did she flinch? What do you mean?

A. She jerked away.

Q. How far away did she jerk away?

A. Just like a flinch. She did not jerk a long distance, just a short distance.

Q. That took the iron off her skin?

A. No, sir.

Q. You kept it on her?

A. I did not have it on that long.

Q. How long?

A. Three seconds.

Q. She did not flinch till after three seconds?

A. No, she flinched when I first put it on.

Q. Did you smell burning flesh?

A. No, it was not that hot.

Q. How do you know how hot it was?

A. I would have smelled burning flesh.

Q. Are you sure of that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you do?

A. Shirley said -

Q. What did Sylvia say?

A. Nothing.

Q. Did she step back?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hold her?

A. No.

Q. She just stood there after you burned this thing on her chest? Is that your testimony under oath?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Alright, go ahead, what happened?

A. Shirley did the bottom half.

Q. What were you doing while Shirley was doing the bottom half?

A. Watching.

Q. Where were you standing?

A. Right next to Sylvia.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Flinched.

Q. Did you have your hand on her?

A. No, sir.

Q. She just stood there with her arms at her side?

A. She had them clinched.

Q. She had what clinched?

A. Her hands.

Q. What did she do when Shirley put the hot iron on her?

A. Flinched.

Q. Did she step back?

A. She jerked back, she did not step back.

Q. Did she cry out?

A. She may have moaned, kind of cried.

Q. Did she or didn't she?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Did she cry?

A. No, sir.

Q. She did not cry at all?

A. I don't recall.

Q. You just don't recall whether she did or not?

A. No.

Q. As a matter of fact, you don't care, do you, Mr. Hobbs, you don't care if Sylvia suffered pain?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. At this time you don't care?

A. At this time I do.

Q. Why do you care now and did not at that time? You did not? Did you try to help Sylvia?

A. Not that I can recall.

Q. If you were concerned about the girl, why did you put the hot iron on the girl's skin? Can you explain?

A. No.

Q. Nobody else did it?

A. No.

Q. It was your own idea?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Tell the jury how you tried to help Sylvia at that time?

A. At that time, I did not.

Q. Did you touch her body at all?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. You did not put your hand on her at all?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Did you later touch her?

A. Tuesday.

Q. Where did you go - I am talking about Saturday - where did you go after Shirley put the hot iron on her, put the bottom half on her?

A. We took Sylvia upstairs and showed Gertrude.

Q. How did you take her upstairs? Describe to the jury.

A. She walked up. We walked up behind her.

Q. Who told her to walk up?

A. I believe I did.

Q. What did you say?

A. I said, "Sylvia, walk upstairs".

Q. Did you say anything else?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. What did she do or say?

A. She just walked upstairs.

Q. Did she take her clothes?

A. I don't recall.

Q. She went up in front of you?

A. Yes.

Q. You did not touch her with your hand?

A. Not that I can recall.

Q. Where did you take her?

A. In the kitchen.

Q. You did. Did you tell her what to do?

A. I figured she knew.

Q. How did you figure that?

A. She walked up the steps and opened the door and everything by herself.

Q. How did Sylvia know that after you had branded her, scratched this on her stomach, hit her with your hand? How would she know what you wanted her to do?

A. After walking upstairs, if the door had to be opened, she knew to open it.

Q. Did she open the door?

A. Yes.

Q. She raised her hand and opened the door?

A. Yes.

Q. It was closed?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she do?

A. Walked in the kitchen and stood.

Q. Why did she stop?

A. Because Gertrude was in there.

Q. Then what happened?

A. She just stood there.

Q. O.K. Did you say anything then?

A. I must of. I don't recall what I said.

Q. Your memory is fuzzy on that, is it?

A. That was six months ago.

Q. You remember other things for Mr. Nedeff. You don't remember what you said after bringing her back up after burning her skin?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you say something?

A. I imagine I did.

Q. What do you think you said?

MR. BOWMAN: We object. What he said would not be relevant.

THE COURT: Overruled as to defendants Coy Hubbard and John Stephan Baniszewski for the reasons assigned.

MR. BOWMAN: It would be hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained as to defendants. It is hearsay. The jury will ignore that in arriving at a verdict.

Q. The fact is you remembered only what you wanted to remember this afternoon, is that the truth?

A. I imagine. I don't know.

Q. As a matter of fact, you have now taken the position your statement to Officer Kaiser was not completely correct?

A. I was scared when I made the statement.

Q. Scared of what?

A. I was arrested on a First Degree Murder charge.

Q. I understand. You said you made the statement. It was not true when you signed it?

A. I am not saying it is not true. I say I was scared.

Q. Let's get back - what did you say when you had Sylvia standing there without any clothes and you showed Gertrude the brand?

A. I don't remember.

Q. How long did Sylvia stand there?

A. Till I left.

Q. How long was that?

A. Five minutes. She was still standing there when I left.

Q. In the same place?

A. The same place.

Q. Describe to the jury her face as you had her standing there naked, with all the mutilations and scars and bruises on her body. Can you tell the jury the expression you saw on her face as you left the house?

A. It was just an expressionless face.

Q. Was she laughing or crying?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you?

A. No, sir.

Q. You were not remorseful at all?

A. No, sir.

Q. You felt no sorrow or pity for her?

A. Not at the time.

Q. Who else was in the kitchen when you brought her upstairs?

A. I believe Jimmy was there and James.

Q. What was Sylvia doing that made you strike her?

A. She would flinch.

Q. Because she was in pain?

A. I imagine that is what it was.

Q. Was there any particular reason you would add to the pain by hitting her?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. You just wanted to be mean to her?

A. I imagine.

Q. Did you intend to kill her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you know she was going to die?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you care?

A. I imagine I did.

Q. You did care?

A. I did not even think about her dying.

Q. It did not enter your mind?

A. No.

Q. You were not concerned?

A. I just was not thinking about it. I would have been concerned.

Q. You would have been concerned if you had thought about it?

A. Yes.

Q. You came back Tuesday - was the next time you came back to the Baniszewski house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You came back after school?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You came over to see who?

A. Just anybody that was there.

Q. To see who was in the house, is that correct?

A. To say "Hi" to whoever was there.

Q. Did you come back to say "Hi" to Sylvia?

A. I had forgotten all about Sylvia.

Q. Did you forget what you had done to Sylvia? You did not think about it after you branded her, beat her?

A. Immediately after I did it, I did.

Q. How long did you feel you had done wrong? How long did that remain in your mind, what you had done to Sylvia?

A. I imagine till Sunday.

Q. Sunday you completely erased it from your mind and memory?

A. Not completely.

Q. Did you tell anybody what you had done?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, when you got back on Tuesday - it was around 4:00 o'clock?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You saw Sylvia laying on the floor on a blanket?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where was she?

A. I did not even see her, not when I came back at 4:00 o'clock.

Q. What did you see?

A. I saw Gertrude and Gertrude only.

Q. Where was she?

A. Laying down.

Q. Where?

A. In her bedroom.

Q. What did you say?

A. I asked her how she was feeling.

Q. What did she say?

A. She told me how she was feeling.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said she was not feeling good.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. I left.

Q. How long did you stay away?

A. Till after I had eaten.

Q. Is that why you went to the Baniszewski house, to walk up to Mrs. Baniszewski and say "how do you feel"?

A. Yes, sir, that is my testimony and that is why I went there.

Q. What did you do?

A. I went over to say "Hi" to whoever was there.

Q. You did that?

A. Yes.

Q. No one else was there?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. You knew Sylvia was there?

A. I imagine I did.

Q. You did not say "Hi" to her?

A. I did not think.

Q. Did you check to see if what you had done had become infected and she might have been ill?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you come to see whether Sylvia was alive or dead?

A. No.

Q. Did you - you did not care?

A. I imagine not.

Q. How long did you stay home after you went home at five after 4.00?

A. Around an hour and a half.

Q. What prompted you to come back?

A. I was on my way over to a friend's house to play basketball.

Q. The Baniszewski house was on the way to the basketball court?

A. On the way to my friend's house.

Q. Why did you stop there at 5:30?

A. To say "Hi" again. I thought more people would be there since it was around dinner time.

Q. What did you see when you went in the house?

A. Sylvia was on the floor. Stephanie, Gertrude and Johnny were there.

Q. Was she down on the floor moaning?

A. I don't recall.

Q. You recalled when you signed the statement on October 27, 1965, admitted here as Exhibit No. 18, you recalled vividly.

A. That was the day after it happened.

Q. You said she was moaning.

A. If I said in there she was, it must be true.

Q. The statement is true?

A. I don't recall some of it. Most of it is true.

Q. If you said it to Officer Kaiser hours after it happened, it must be true?

A. I am not saying that.

Q. Is it true?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you intend to lie to Officer Kaiser?

A. No, I did not.

Q. You intended to tell the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did tell the truth?

A. I don't recall.

Q. You said you intended to tell the truth?

A. I had been mixed up. I had been asked questions by a million people.

Q. That did not mix you up on what happened a few hours after it happened?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. You were not sure what you did recall at that time?

A. No, I was not.

Q. Now, then, when you got in there, Sylvia was laying on the floor on a blanket. What did you say?

A. I did not say anything.

Q. Did you ask anyone how she happened to get in that condition?

A. I did not think about that.

Q. Did you see her face?

A. She was in a little cuddled up like.

Q. Cuddled up how?

A. Rolled up.

Q. Rolled up how?

A. In a knee chest position.

Q. Was she on her back or side?

A. Sideways.

Q. Which side was near the floor?

A. I believe her left side.

Q. Her left side was near the floor?

A. I believe so.

Q. Was she moving?

A. No.

Q. She was not moving at all. Was she dressed?

A. I believe she had a pair of shorts on.

Q. Did you see her face at all, except for the right side?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see the right eye?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was it black?

A. I did not notice.

Q. Did you turn her face up toward you when you gave her mouth to mouth resuscitation?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see the left side of her face?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see the left eye?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it black?

A. I believe it was.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because I remember.

Q. That is correct? It is coming back to you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you sure of that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see the left side of her face around the cheek?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you see?

A. I don't recall seeing any scald marks.

Q. You don't?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Did you look?

A. No.

Q. You did not care, did you?

A. No, I was busy, preoccupied.

Q. Your occupation was to help her?

A. That was my thoughts.

Q. Why did you want to help her?

A. If I see a person dying, naturally I want to help.

Q. You did not want to help her on Saturday before?

A. She was not dying.

Q. You knew she was dying then?

A. She was breathing labored.

Q. You were trying to breathe life back in because you knew you would be caught up if she died?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why did you try to save her then?

A. I don't know why, sir.

Q. Did you feel compassion for her, sorry for her?

A. I feel sorry for anybody dying.

Q. Anybody?

A. Anybody.

Q. You knew she was dying?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How did you know that?

A. I figured it because she was breathing heavy.

Q. Anything else?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Just heavy breathing?

A. She had sores all over her body.

Q. You knew she was beaten, gouged, scalded, branded and you had done part of it, you knew you had contributed to her condition?

A. Yes.

Q. You were trying to save her so you would not be caught?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did you do to try to save her?

A. First I tried to pump air into her lungs.

Q. How did you do that?

A. By pressing below the rib cage.

Q. She was over on her back then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see her throat?

A. I did not notice.

Q. Did you look?

A. No, sir.

Q. She had a blouse or top on?

A. No, sir.

Q. No top at all?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you notice her upper chest?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see anything there?

A. I don't recall.

Q. You don't recall noticing anything, right?

A. That is right.

Q. How often did you push on her chest?

A. Maybe five times. I noticed it was not doing any good.

Q. Actually you were forcing air out of her lungs and she was trying to get it in?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is it a fact, you were trying to kill her?

A. No.

Q. You kept your weight on her so she could not breathe?

A. No, sir.

Q. You were actually tromping on her?

A. No, sir.

Q. What else did you do? Let's hear your version.

A. I seen it was not doing any good and I give her mouth to mouth resuscitation.

Q. As a matter of fact, Stephanie did that, not you, is that the truth?

A. She may have done it upstairs. I don't know. I done it downstairs.

Q. What you are telling the jury you did is actually what Stephanie did?

A. No, as far as I know, I did.

Q. Where was Stephanie?

A. Right beside me.

Q. What was she doing?

A. I don't know.

Q. Was she doing anything that you know of?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Where was Gertrude?

A. In the kitchen crying.

Q. Crying what?

A. Just crying.

Q. Crying out she was a faker?

A. She was doing that when we carried her upstairs.

Q. Before that she was just crying?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, which end did you take when you carried Sylvia's body upstairs?

A. Her shoulders.

Q. Which end did Stephanie take?

A. Her feet.

Q. Now, then, when you were carrying the girl upstairs, did you let go of her?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not let go so her head dropped down and hit the stairway?

A. No, sir.

Q. You hung on to her all way upstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you take her?

A. In front of the bathroom door.

Q. What did you do?

A. Laid her down.

Q. Did you stay there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you stay there?

A. Till Johnny and Stephanie had her in the bath tub.

Q. How long was that?

A. Maybe two minutes.

Q. You told Mr. Nedeff they put her in with what clothes she had on?

A. They did.

Q. Whose idea was that?

A. Gertrude's.

Q. You were not trying to help her, you were trying to drown her and just dumped her in the water?

A. I did not do it.

Q. Who did?

A. Johnny and Stephanie.

Q. What were they trying to do, get rid of her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Had Gertrude told you she was going to get rid of the girl?

A. No.

Q. Did you say that to officer Kaiser, that "Gertie told me she was going to get rid of her the night before".

A. I don't recall.

Q. Take a look here and see if your memory can be refreshed. I will hand you, Mr. Hobbs, what has been marked State's Exhibit No. 18. I will ask you to look at about the twelfth line from the bottom. What did you tell Officer Kaiser then?

A. Do you want me to read it?

MR. BOWMAN: I will object to that, Your Honor.

MR. NEDEFF: I think the statement speaks for itself, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Objection overruled as to defendants Richard Hobbs. Sustained as to defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard. The jury will ignore the reading of the statement insofar as it pertains to defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard.

MR. ERBECKER: We are going to object.

THE COURT: Sustained as to Gertrude Baniszewski. The jury will ignore the statement in arriving at a verdict as to Gertrude Baniszewski.

A. Q. "Can you tell us what happened yesterday afternoon at the house, just before she died"? A. "When I got to the house, I thought Sylvia was gone, because Gertie told me she was going to get rid of her the night before".

Q. Did you say that?

A. I imagine I did.

Q. Is that the truth?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. She did not tell you that?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Why did you lie to the officer then?

A. I don't know, sir.

THE COURT: Mr. New, this is a good time to stop, I think, if you don't mind. Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, by agreement of counsel and with the consent of the State and defendants, made in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. We will start at 9:00 o'clock tomorrow morning, 9:00 o'clock in the morning, at which time you will report to the jury room. Do not read any newspaper articles that may appear about this case. Don't watch anything or listen to anything that may be broadcast about this case and do not read any periodicals or any other articles that may appear in any periodical about this case. Do not talk among yourselves and don't let anyone else talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion thereon till the case is finally submitted to you. Court will remain in session. Jury and Alternate Jurors are excused till 9:00 o'clock Monday morning, May 16.

JURY EXCUSED.

COURT ADJOURNED.

MAY 16, 1966 AND THE TRIAL OF THIS CAUSE WAS RESUMED.

THE COURT: Are you ready for the jury?

MR. ERBECKER: We are, Your Honor.

MR. BOWMAN: Yes.

THE COURT: Let the witness take the stand. Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: The State may resume it's cross examination.

CROSS EXAMINATION RESUMED,
QUESTIONS BY MR. LEROY NEW,
DEPUTY PROSECTOR

Q. State your name, sir.

A. Richard Dean Hobbs.

Q. You were testifying at the close of the session Friday?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever talk to Gertrude Baniszewski any time away from her home at 3850 East New York Street?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you tell this jury last Friday that you did not return to 3850 East New York Street from approximately 4:00 o'clock Saturday afternoon, on the 23rd, until late in the afternoon of Tuesday, the 26th?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was that the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you have any occasion to talk with Gertrude Baniszewski between 4:00 o'clock Saturday afternoon and the time you arrived there Tuesday afternoon?

A. None that I recall.

Q. When you talked with Sgt. Kaiser on the morning of the 27th and signed a statement, didn't you tell Sgt. Kaiser when you got to the house Tuesday you thought Sylvia was gone because, "Gertie told me she was going to get rid of her the night before"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was that the truth?

A. It must have been if I signed it.

Q. If you did not talk with Gertrude Baniszewski between 4:00 o'clock Saturday afternoon and the afternoon of Tuesday, then how and when and where did you know Gertrude Baniszewski was going to get rid of Sylvia the night before.

A. I said I did not recall talking to her. I may have, but I don't recall.

Q. Would you recall if you did talk to her?

A. I have no idea.

Q. Do you recall now before the jury that Gertrude Baniszewski told you she was going to get rid of Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she tell you that night before, as you told Sgt. Kaiser?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. The fact is, you were at 3850 East New York on Monday, the 25th, were you not?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Was there a plan made there at that time to get rid of Sylvia Likens?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Did you make this all up in your head, what you told Sgt. Kaiser about?

A. It must have been the truth if I signed it back then. I don't remember it now.

Q. You testified, I believe, Friday that you were a friend of Gertrude Baniszewski's?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you some particular friend of Gertrude's? Is that why you gave that answer?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why were you not a friend of the children as well?

A. I was a friend of the children.

Q. Now, I believe, Mr. Hobbs, you stated when you signed the statement marked Exhibit No. 18 you were frightened and scared in some manner and therefore you implicated Paula and Coy Hubbard, which is not the truth. The truth is what you said in substance?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Did you say you were scared when you made the statement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you say the statement contained some untruths?

A. I may have said that, but I meant there are things in there I don't recall now.

Q. I am interested more whether they are the truth?

A. They must be if I signed it the day after I was arrested.

Q. Did you intend to tell the truth to Sgt. Kaiser?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did your father meet with you before you made the statement, in the presence of Sgt. Kaiser, and tell you to tell the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you afraid when your father was there?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he tell you to tell the truth if you had anything to say?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you try to do that?

A. Yes.

Q. Then what you put in State's Exhibit No. 18, to the best of your knowledge, was the truth?

A. Yes.

Q. Then you did see Coy Hubbard do some harm to Sylvia?

A. Not that I recall now.

Q. Was this statement read to you and did you read it before you signed it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That did not frighten you, just simply reading over what you had said?

A. No, sir.

Q. It was shown to you before you signed it, put your name to it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, did you testify, Mr. Hobbs, that after you helped Stephanie carry Sylvia upstairs that you went back downstairs and restrained Gertrude, leaving John and Stephanie upstairs with Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that the truth?

A. To the best of my knowledge, it is.

Q. Where downstairs did you stay with Gertrude?

A. In the living room.

Q. What was she doing?

A. Walking around yelling about Sylvia.

Q. What did she yell?

A. She kept repeating she was faking.

Q. Did she continue to walk?

A. She would stop every once in a while.

Q. Why would she do that?

A. She would stand in front of the stairs.

Q. Were you in front of them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you do?

A. I just stood there.

Q. Did you take hold of her?

A. Not unless she tried to get up the stairs.

Q. Did she?

A. She may have once or twice. I don't recall exactly.

Q. You restrained her?

A. By putting my arm out, yes, sir.

Q. Why did you do that?

A. Because Stephanie thought it best to keep her downstairs.

Q. You knew she would kill her if she got up there, didn't you?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did you see her hit her in the head with a book?

A. I did not.

Q. Were you upstairs when Sylvia was laying on the mattress?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see Gertrude hit her?

A. The police were there when I seen her laying on the mattress.

Q. You did not see her before that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see her hit Sylvia on the head twice with a book? - I will ask if it is not a fact you stated to Sgt. Kaiser, "We, me and Stephanie carried her upstairs and laid her on the mattress on the bedroom floor, and she was cold, and I gave her artificial respiration, and then Stephanie took over then, and she did too," Why do you say now you did not see her on the mattress till the police came?

A. I don't recall laying her on a mattress.

Q. Are you trying to protect somebody with your testimony this morning?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where was Sylvia lying when you stated you gave her artificial respiration?

A. Down in the kitchen.

Q. Are you sure about that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you tell this jury you put your mouth to her mouth and attempted to breathe air into her lungs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you notice anything about her lower lip at that time?

A. Not at that time, no.

Q. Is it a fact, her lower lip was bitten completely in two?

A. I have never seen it bitten in two?

Q. Did you see it when you put your mouth to her mouth?

A. No, sir.

Q. I will hand you, Mr. Hobbs, what is marked State's Exhibit No. 2 and I will ask you to look at that and tell if that is the person you have been testifying about you were giving artificial respiration to?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you notice her lip there?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell it is cut in half, can you see it from that picture?

A. I don't know about cut in half. It looks cut through.

Q. Is that the face you saw at the time you testified you gave artificial respiration to some person?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that the same person?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall those marks, bruises, lacerations, gouges and craters on the girl?

A. Not all of them.

Q. Do you recall the mouth?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is it a fact, Mr. Hobbs, the reason you don't recall that mouth is because you did not put your mouth down to it at all - it was Stephanie that did that?

A. No, sir.

Q. You went back downstairs, is that correct?

A. Pardon?

Q. You went back downstairs after you carried Sylvia upstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You denied Friday that you dropped her head and banged it on the stairs as you went up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who went back downstairs with you, if anyone did?

A. Gertrude.

Q. Did anyone go back downstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who?

A. Gertrude.

Q. She stayed down there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you tell Sgt. Kaiser, when you made Exhibit No, 18 that "Johnny and I went downstairs while Gertie and Stephanie put some dry clothes on her"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that the truth or is that false?

A. It must be the truth.

Q. How did Gertrude do that upstairs if you stated you were downstairs with her, restraining her?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. Can you figure out a way so you can enlighten the jury?

MR. NEDEFF: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained as to the form.

Q. Did you also tell Sgt. Kaiser you were telling the truth at the time you made the statement, State's Exhibit 18?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you think Sylvia was gone when you arrived Tuesday?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I have no idea.

Q. You said in the statement you thought Sylvia was gone. Do you have any idea, in your best recollection, where you thought she had gone to?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, sir.

Q. What made you think she was gone?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No one mentioned her. I did not see her around.

Q. I am sorry. I could not hear your answer.

A. No one mentioned her name and I did not see anyplace.

Q. Is that your answer?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, you said to Sgt. Kaiser that Sylvia never did you any personal harm. Is that the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You stated Friday that you hit Sylvia five or six times with the back of your hand while you were mutilating her stomach with a needle and you told Sgt. Kaiser you struck her ten to fifteen times. Can you recall which of those statements is the truth?

A. I believe the four to five is more accurate.

Q. And did you hit or strike or beat Sylvia on any other occasion, Mr. Hobbs?

A. No, sir.

Q. I believe you stated to the jury Friday you did not know what made you do this. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that still your answer?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then can you tell the jury why you told Sgt. Kaiser, when you made the statement the morning of the 27th, Gertrude made you do it?

A. I was talking about making me do it personally, not otherwise.

Q. She did not force you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She did?

A. She did not forcefully. like pushing me, but she told me to do it.

Q. That is what you told Sgt. Kaiser?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she tell you to do it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you say you make up the note, what words were inscribed, before you touched her with the needle?

A. I believe I did.

Q. Did you?

A. I don't recall.

Q. You don't recall whether you helped inscribe the words, so you would know what to scratch on this girl?

A. No, sir.

Q. You don't recall now?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you recall stating something Friday about "We all pitched in and made up the note, decided what to say"?

MR. NEDEFF: Your Honor, I think I am going to object.

THE COURT: Overruled. He is testing his memory.

MR. NEW: Repeat the question, please.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was that the truth?

A. Yes, sir, I suppose.

Q. Why do you say you suppose? Was it the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then nobody made you pitch in and write the note?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did this on your own from the beginning to the end, didn't you?

A. As far as the note goes, yes, sir.

Q. As far as the lacerations and mutilations goes, you did it on your own, didn't you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you testify Gertrude said she was getting sick and handed you the needle and left?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did you say?

A. She handed me the needle and told me to finish it.

Q. Did she say she was getting sick?

A. Yes.

Q. That is what she did do and say?

A. Yes.

Q. When she handed you the needle, did she force you to take it?

A. Not physically.

Q. You did so voluntarily?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Gertrude strike, beat or hit Sylvia before that day?

A. Yes, in the - before that day, no.

Q. Not before that day?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did you see her do that day?

A. Before the time she started on her stomach, she was hitting her.

Q. Gertrude was?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell the jury what you saw?

A. I can't tell them exactly.

Q. If you say you recall her hitting her, how was she hitting her, what with?

A. Her fist and her feet.

Q. What was Sylvia doing?

A. Standing there in the same place.

Q. How many times did she kick and hit her?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Where on Sylvia's body did she get struck?

A. On the shoulder and on the leg.

Q. What had Sylvia done to get this beating?

A. Nothing as far as I know.

Q. You were there?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw it?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you intervene or help her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Who else hit her besides Gertrude?

A. I believe Johnny did.

Q. Gertrude and Johnny both hit her in the kitchen before you started mutilating her with the needle?

A. Yes.

Q. You did not tell that Friday or tell Mr. Nedeff when he asked you to relate what happened?

A. No, sir.

Q. It is the truth, is it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did anyone else hit Sylvia while she was in the kitchen before you scratched her with the needle?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Did you ever see Gertrude strike or hit or beat Sylvia any other time?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see her burn her?

A. No, sir.

Q. You want to tell the jury you have not seen Gertrude Baniszewski burn Sylvia with cigarettes? Is that your testimony here this morning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You have never seen that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever burn her?

A. No, sir.

Q. I will hand you, Mr. Hobbs, what is marked Exhibit No. 14 and ask if it is not a fact you have seen Gertrude Baniszewski strike Sylvia Likens in the head with that piece of board?

A. It is not a fact.

Q. You have not seen her strike her at all?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. You would not say you did not, in her presence, you just don't recall?

A. I just don't recall.

Q. I see. I will ask you also, Mr. Hobbs, if it is not a fact you have seen Gertrude Baniszewski strike Sylvia a number of times with State's Exhibit No. 15 which is a belt?

A. No, sir.

Q. You say you have not seen her do that?

A. I have never even seen that belt.

Q. Would you describe the basement in which you said you scorched or burned or tattooed Sylvia to the jury? Describe it at the time you did this.

A. You walked down the stairs heading east and turned to the left and you see two sinks on the north wall, one sink on the east wall and a mattress and springs up against the north wall and some rags. Farther on down there is a coal bin, a coal furnace and some old kitchen chairs down there.

Q. Tin cans?

A. I believe there was under the stairs.

Q. Trash?

A. Tin cans.

Q. Dog filth?

A. None that I saw.

Q. Was there a dog in the house?

A. A German shepherd.

Q. Was there a puppy?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Did Gertrude tell you she was keeping Sylvia down in the basement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she say why she was doing it?

A. No, sir.

Q. When did she tell you that?

A. On Saturday.

Q. Is that the first you knew she was down in the basement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you have any reason to know or believe Sylvia Likens was starving to death?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you know she was sick?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she appear perfectly normal to you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why not?

A. She had all these cuts and bruises.

Q. She stood and stared with a blank stare?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Is that what you said Friday?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you tell this jury she stood there with a blank stare, was expressionless while you were branding her?

A. No, sir.

Q. What was her expression?

A. It was a expressionless face.

Q. Now, from the time you entered the kitchen door, as you stated, Tuesday afternoon after school, was Sylvia groaning most of that time?

A. Excuse me?

Q. Was Sylvia groaning most of the time after you arrived Tuesday afternoon?

A. Which time Tuesday?

Q. What time did you arrive?

A. I arrived around 4:00 o'clock one time and 5:30 the next time.

Q. Was she groaning at 4:00?

A. I did not see her at 4:00.

Q. Did you hear any sounds at all?

A. None besides Gertrude being there.

Q. You heard no moaning or other outcries?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did Gertrude say at 4:00?

A. I asked how she felt and she said "not too well".

Q. You left?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you had really come there for what purpose?

A. My conscience was bothering me about Sylvia all Monday and Tuesday morning and Sunday. I was wondering how she was.

Q. When did your conscience begin to bother you after 4:00 o'clock Saturday?

A. After 4:00 o'clock Saturday.

Q. When?

A. As soon as I left the house.

Q. But according to your testimony it took you the rest of Saturday night, the rest of Sunday and all day Monday and all day Tuesday before you could go two doors away and find how she was doing, is that your testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see Gertrude Baniszewski make Sylvia drink urine?

A. No.

Q. Did you tell a reporter from Station WIBC, Mr. Bob Hoover, you did at the time when he was taking a tape recording of the statement?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. What is the truth as to whether you have seen Sylvia Likens drinking urine?

A. I have not.

Q. You are now testifying you did not talk to Mr. Hoover concerning that matter?

A. I don't recall talking to any reporter.

Q. In jail?

A. Not in jail, no, sir.

Q. Were you present in court when Jenny Likens testified and told the jury what happened?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you present when Marie Baniszewski testified and told the jury what happened?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you present when Shirley Baniszewski testified and told the jury what happened?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you hear each of those witnesses testify concerning the details of being down in the basement at the time the brand was placed on Sylvia's stomach?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And your testimony is only you and Shirley Baniszewski were down there?

A. That is all I recall. They may have been.

Q. I did not get the last.

A. There may have been more.

Q. Did you ever tie Sylvia Likens yourself in the basement?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is it a fact, you and Coy Hubbard actually tied her up on Saturday before she died?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you present when I read Exhibit No. 25, being a statement by Coy Hubbard?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you hear that Coy Hubbard stated in the presence of Officers Kaiser and Campbell, in answer to this question, Q. "Did you and Ricky Hobbs ever do anything to Sylvia Likens"? He gave the answer, A. "Yes, last Saturday we tied her in the basement"., Did you hear that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true?

A. To my best recollection, no.

Q. You would not say it did not happen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You would say it did not happen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Coy Hubbard did not tell the truth the 27th of October?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Yes, he did tell the truth, or yes, he lied?

A. He did not tell the truth.

Q. I see, do you recall anyone else who has told an untruth, as a State's witness here, about what you may have done?

A. Marie Baniszewski.

Q. What did she say you did that was not so?

A. She said I threw her downstairs and pulled her hair and knocked her down.

Q. You did none of that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever treat this burn that you put on Sylvia's stomach with a hot iron?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you treat it after you did it by putting any lubrication to relieve the pain?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you do anything to keep it from becoming infected?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, did you testify Friday that Gertrude had ripped the clothing off Sylvia because she was moving kind of slow?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that your analysis of her movement or is that Gertrude's. Did she say she was moving slow?

A. This is my analysis.

Q. How was she moving, what was she doing?

MR. NEDEFF: I object. I think the testimony was she was taking her clothes off too slow.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

Q. What did she do that you characterized, classified to the jury she was moving kind of slow?

A. She was taking her blouse off and was not moving at a normal rate of speed.

Q. You wanted her to move a little faster yourself?

A. I did not, no, sir.

Q. You stated to the jury she was moving slowly. That was your speed you were calculating?

A. She was moving slow for anybody's speed.

Q. In other words, she did not want to take her blouse off?

A. That could have been the reason.

Q. You know it was. She was reluctant coming up from the basement?

A. She was moving slow all the time.

Q. She certainly did not want you to scratch her with a needle?

A. I imagine not.

Q. Why do you imagine not. Did you have some suggestion she might want you to burn her with a needle?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not ask her?

A. No, sir.

Q. She did not consent?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you get sick when you put the hot needle to her, scratched the words on her?

A. Kind of.

Q. How kind of sick, where?

A. Just everywhere.

Q. What sort of sickness did you experience?

A. I can't describe it.

Q. Sick at your stomach?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Sick with yourself?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. But you did not stop?

A. No, sir.

Q. Or you did not help the girl?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not feel sorry for her, pity?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How did you express that to Sylvia when you were burning her, if you felt sorry for her?

A. I did not.

Q. You felt sorry and did not do anything about it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You expressed pity and remorse by putting the brand on her?

A. No, sir.

Q. How did you express it?

A. I did not express it.

Q. The fact is, you did not feel pity for her as a human being at all?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you present when Gertrude put Trend soap on her because she had dirtied in her pants?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you there when Johnny turned the hose on her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you notice she had had a bowel movement?

A. No.

Q. Had she had a bowel movement?

A. I don't know.

Q. Is it your testimony, she had not dirtied in her pants?

A. No, sir.

Q. What is your recollection?

A. I have no recollection.

Q. You said you got down on top of her, straddled her to help her get her breath?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You still don't know if she had a bowel movement in her clothes?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear testimony she had been hosed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You still don't recollect?

A. No.

Q. Did you see Randy bring the hose to the door?

A. No.

Q. You said you called the police dispatcher?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Johnny go with you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you actually make the call?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you say?

A. I don't recall exactly.

Q. What do you recall at all?

A. I believe I said "There may be a dead girl at a house" and I gave the address.

Q. You knew there was a dead girl at that time?

A. No, sir.

Q. Had you waited till she was dead?

A. As soon as Johnny came running downstairs saying she was dead, I went and called the police.

Q. Did anyone else say she was dead?

A. Stephanie was kneeling upstairs and crying.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said she was dead.

Q. You had not gone back upstairs to see?

A. No.

Q. Yet you were concerned to the effect you were giving artificial respiration and did not check to see if she was dead or if she needed help?

A. My first thought was to call the police.

Q. This came after you heard she was dead?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your thought was you wanted her dead?

A. No.

Q. Did it occur to you - you could call for a doctor the minute you found the girl on the floor?

A. It may have.

Q. Did Stephanie tell somebody to go to the neighbors and call for a doctor?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Did she tell you to go next door to the neighbor, you or Shirley or Marie, and get a doctor immediately for the girl before you carried her upstairs?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Are you stating she did not say it?

A. No, sir.

Q. After you called the police and said there may be a dead girl at 3850 East New York, what did you do?

A. Went back across the street and stood on the front porch and waited till they came.

Q. Did you stay till they came?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they say anything?

A. He asked where it was and I showed him.

Q. Did you go inside?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you told the jury now all the things that happened from the time you arrived at approximately 5:00 or 5:15, the second time, Tuesday, till you called the police?

A. I believe I have.

Q. Have you forget, Mr. Hobbs, to tell the jury that Gertrude told you to lie to the police?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Tell them about that, what did she say?

A. When I was keeping her downstairs, she told me to tell the police she had come to the back door with a note pinned to her chest around 5:30, saying a bunch of boys beat her up.

Q. With reference to all the other testimony you have given, when did she say that?

A. I am sorry. I made a mistake. When I came back from calling the police, I was on the front porch and Gertrude came out with me and she told me and Johnny that.

Q. Did she tell anyone else that?

A. Not that I know of, just Johnny and I.

Q. Do you recall anything else she might have said?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Where did she say the note was pinned?

A. On her blouse.

Q. Did you hear testimony that she came topless?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was not what she told you?

A. No, sir.

Q. She told you the note was pinned to the blouse?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see the note?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she tell you what the note said?

A. She gave me a vague idea.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said a bunch of boys had beat her up.

Q. Anything else?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you leave anything out, Mr. Hobbs, about your conversation with Mrs. Baniszewski, after you called the police?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Did you ever have sexual relations with Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she ever fondle or touch you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she ever fondle or touch any of the neighbor boys who came in her home?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to the question.

Q. Did you ever take your feet and stomp on Sylvia's groin or vaginal area?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever kick her between the legs?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anyone do that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did Gertrude ever play a record for you on the record player in the home?

A. I believe she did during the summer.

Q. Did she ever dance while the record was on?

A. I believe she did.

Q. Who else was there while she was dancing for you?

A. I believe Paula was and Stephanie may have been.

Q. You stated Sylvia clenched her fists while you were burning her with the hot iron?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you happen to notice her fingernails?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever notice her fingernails?

A. No, sir.

Q. Who was it got the ball point pen and did the outline of the words on her stomach?

A. I believe it was Gertrude. I am not sure.

Q. Did she write all the words?

A. I believe she did.

Q. Did anyone touch the scratches or lacerations after you scratched her with the needle?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. The ink or ball point pen was done before the scratching?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Sylvia ask you to stop while you were doing that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she beg you to quit while you were burning her stomach with the hot iron?

A. No, sir.

Q. Your testimony was you did not smell flesh scorching or burning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you hear the testimony of Jenny that you handed her the hot iron and told her to do it and Sylvia begged her not to do it?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Did she beg you not to do it?

A. No, sir.

MR. NEW: That is all. - I have an omitted question.

Q. Come out here. Stand there. Mr. Hobbs, I will ask you to look at this gentleman here and ask you to look at him carefully and tell him if you ever made a statement to a news reporter.

A. I don't recall.

Q. You don't remember his face at all?

A. Not besides here in the courtroom.

Q. You never remember talking to him in jail immediately after you were arrested? Is that your testimony to this jury?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. NEW: That is all.

THE COURT: Defendant Gertrude Baniszewski may examine the witness.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Mr. Hobbs, when was the first time you ever went to the Baniszewski home?

A. I don't recall, not exactly.

Q. What month was it in, do you remember?

A. Either late July or early August.

Q. What was the purpose of you going there in the first place?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Did you see Sylvia the first time you went there?

A. No, sir.

Q. When was the first time you saw Sylvia there?

A. After I had been around two or three times.

Q. Late in July or early in August?

A. More like late in August.

Q. Late August?

A. The latter part of August.

Q. Now, when you first saw Sylvia, did she have any marks or bruises on her?

A. Not that I recall, not that I could see.

Q. When was the first time you saw marks or bruises on her?

A. That Saturday.

Q. Preceding October 23rd, was it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was the first time you saw any marks at all?

A. As far as I know.

Q. Pardon?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was the last time you saw Sylvia before Saturday, October 23rd?

A. The very early part of October, maybe the 1st or 2nd.

Q. Then you did not see Sylvia from the 1st or 2nd till October 23rd?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did not?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you go in the house during those occasions?

A. No, sir.

Q. You stayed away from the house from the 1st or 2nd of October till the 23rd?

A. To my best recollection.

Q. You lived two doors away?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you hold any animosity toward Gertrude Baniszewski?

A. No, sir.

Q. None at all?

A. I may. I don't know.

Q. Are you attempting to shield someone in this case?

A. No, sir.

Q. Are you attempting to emphasize anything you may have seen Gertrude Baniszewski do?

A. No, sir.

Q. But you are indefinite and uncertain what transpired with anyone else but Gertrude. She is the only one you are certain about, is that right?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Gertrude do anything to Sylvia the first time you saw Sylvia in the latter part of August?

A. No, sir.

Q. When was the first time you ever saw Gertrude do anything to Sylvia?

A. October 23rd.

Q. You saw her scratch the first letter "I", is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that all she did?

A. No, sir.

Q. What else did she do?

A. She hit and kicked her.

Q. Was it all on the first floor or the basement?

A. The first floor.

Q. What did Gertrude do when you were - what was she doing when you were doing the scratching?

A. Sitting down in the kitchen chair.

Q. Next to you?

A. No, sir.

Q. In the same room?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she say, if anything?

A. I believe she was talking with her daughter.

Q. Which daughter?

A. Either Shirley or Marie or whoever it was.

Q. Who all were in the kitchen when Gertrude was talking there October 23rd?

A. I believe Johnny, me and Shirley and Gertrude and I believe Jenny and Marie had left at this time. They were not there.

Q. They went out to rake leaves?

A. Yes, as far as I know.

Q. Nobody else was there?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Did you ever see - hear what Gertrude was talking about there October 23, when you were doing it?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Well, was it about the weather, about what you were doing there or about something else?

A. About anything, just general conversation.

Q. Did you ever see Gertrude laugh while this was going on?

A. I could not even see Gertrude when this was going on.

Q. Did Gertrude attempt any way to stop you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she urge you on any way?

A. No, sir.

Q. You told the jury she told you to do it, Gertrude told you to do it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she say?

A. She just handed me the needle and told me to finish it.

Q. Told you to finish it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she say anything else?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. But in your basing your answer on what you saw and heard there at the time, do you think Gertrude was enjoying this?

A. I could not say.

Q. Was she sorry about it?

MR. NEDEFF: We are going to object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What was the facial expression of Gertrude, if you saw it at the time?

A. Just a plain face, just a regular face.

Q. How long did this operation of yours take there, your marks on the body, how long did it take?

A. Twenty-five or thirty minutes.

Q. Twenty-five or thirty minutes?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Gertrude - was she there all the time?

A. Yes, sir, I believe she was.

Q. Did she do anything to stop you?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did you do when you stopped?

A. Randy Lepper came to the door. We had to stop so Sylvia could go down in the basement.

Q. What did Gertrude say?

A. She told us to go in the basement.

Q. You were stopped at that time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Finished, I mean?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How much time elapsed from the time you were finished till Randy Lepper came to the door?

A. No more than five minutes.

Q. What happened in the five minutes after you stopped till Randy Lepper came there?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Was there any conversation by Gertrude?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was it?

A. She was talking to Sylvia.

Q. About what?

A. Asking how she felt.

Q. Asking Sylvia how she felt? What did Gertrude say?

A. Just asked Sylvia how she felt?

Q. What did Sylvia say?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Was she in agony?

A. Not by looking at her, you could not tell.

Q. Well, was she biting her lip at that time?

A. I don't know, sir, I was not looking at her face.

Q. What were you doing?

A. I was looking around the room.

Q. For what?

A. Just looking. If somebody talked, I would look at them.

Q. Did anyone other than Gertrude say anything?

A. Me and Sylvia and Gertrude were about the only ones there.

Q. What did Stephanie say?

A. Stephanie was not there.

Q. Stephanie was not there?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did Sylvia say?

A. She answered questions if she was asked.

Q. What?

A. She would answer questions if she was asked.

Q. Who asked her any questions?

A. Gertrude.

Q. What was the questions, other than "how do you feel"?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Was Gertrude solicitous or anxious in her questions towards Sylvia?

MR. NEDEFF: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. What were the nature of the questions? Do you recall that?

MR. NEDEFF: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. What were the questions, if you can remember?

A. I can't remember.

Q. There was more than one question?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The only question you can remember is that Gertrude asked "How do you feel, Sylvia" or something like that, is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did Gertrude do, if anything, from the five minutes from the time you stopped till Lepper got there?

A. I am sorry?

Q. What did Gertrude do from the five minutes you stopped?

A. Just sat and talked to Sylvia and me.

Q. What was Sylvia doing?

A. Standing there.

Q. Standing there talking to Gertrude?

A. Answering her questions.

Q. Was there two other people there other than Gertrude and Sylvia and you?

A. I believe Shirley was.

Q. Who else?

A. I don't recall who else.

Q. Did Sylvia answer any questions anybody else asked?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. The only conversation you heard was between Gertrude and Sylvia, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Gertrude do anything to soothe Sylvia's pain?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she put medication on it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she ask her if she could do anything for her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she ask her if she wanted her to get a doctor?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did Gertrude call a doctor?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Did Gertrude do anything at all to alleviate or lessen that girl's pain?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. When Randy Lepper got to the door, what did you do?

A. Went in the basement.

Q. What did Gertrude do?

A. Stayed in the kitchen.

Q. You did not hear any conversation because you were in the basement?

A. Yes.

Q. How long were you in the basement?

A. Approximately ten minutes.

Q. That is when you did perform the other mutilation?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Lepper there at the time you did that?

A. Not in the basement. He was upstairs.

Q. He was there while you were doing it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. After you got done, did you come upstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Gertrude ever come downstairs while you were performing the other mutilation?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was Gertrude upstairs when you came up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long were you in the basement?

A. Approximately ten minutes.

Q. Did Gertrude go down and try to stop you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she know what was going on to your knowledge?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. When you came upstairs did you say anything to Gertrude?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Did you show what you had done to Gertrude?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did Gertrude say, if anything?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did she say anything at all?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did Gertrude see the new mark you had put on Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Gertrude do anything at that time to help the new injuries you had inflicted on her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she call a doctor any time?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. She did not call the police?

A. No, sir.

Q. Gertrude never did call the police, did she?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Are you telling the truth now?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Gertrude ever tell you to call the police?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, Gertrude never did tell you to call the police?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you remember signing Exhibit No. 18 in front of Sgt. William Kaiser and Joy Snedeker, the two witnesses, do you remember that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. On October 26, 1965 was it?

A. I believe so.

Q. Do you recall saying this in that statement? "Then Gertrude told me to call the police, she thought she had stopped breathing, and I went across the street and called the police". Did you say that?

A. Yes.

Q. That is not true?

A. It must be if I said it.

Q. I beg pardon?

A. It must be.

Q. Then you - during the latter part of July how many times did you go in that house there?

A. Maybe once.

Q. Once in July?

A. Approximately.

Q. Once. How about August?

A. Maybe three times.

Q. How about September?

A. Maybe two times.

Q. How about October?

A. Two or three times.

Q. Now then, you did not go in that house from the 1st or 2nd of October till October 23rd any time, did you?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. What was the occasion of you staying away? Was there any reason?

A. I was busy on the project for my church and I had homework.

Q. What church was that?

A. Grace Methodist.

Q. You had never known Gertrude prior to the first time you got to that house in July, had you?

A. I did not know her by name.

Q. You knew her by sight?

A. Yes, she used to live across the alley from where I lived. I knew her by seeing her, knew she was there.

Q. When did you see Gertrude dance while the record played, when was that?

A. I believe maybe August or September.

Q. And was Sylvia there?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. Who all was there when Gertrude danced?

A. Paula and Stephanie and me and Gertrude as far as I remember.

Q. Were you a friend of Stephanie's?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever go out with her and have cokes or go to the park with her?

A. No, sir.

Q. You were not her boyfriend then?

A. No, sir.

Q. What time of day was it on October 23 that you first saw Sylvia?

A. On the 23rd, around 12:30 or 1:00 o'clock.

Q. Noon?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is the first time you had seen Sylvia then since the latter part of August, was it, or sometime in September?

A. I believe sometime in September.

Q. And you had not seen - what time in September?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Was it the latter part of September or the first part of September?

A. Around the middle.

Q. Around the middle of September?

A. Yes.

Q. The middle of September was the last time you saw Sylvia till October 23, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, October 23 is the first time you ever saw any marks on her, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever have any conversation with Gertrude about the injuries that you saw on October 23rd?

A. No, sir.

Q. No conversation at all?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Now, you testified that you went downstairs on October 26 was it - and restrained Gertrude. Did you say that?

A. Yes.

Q. On Tuesday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time Tuesday did you go downstairs and restrain Gertrude?

A. I don't know exactly what time it was - around 6:10 or 6:15.

Q. Who was downstairs restraining Gertrude before you got down there?

A. She was upstairs.

Q. Who was?

A. Gertrude and I.

Q. She was upstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she go downstairs of her own volition, of her own free will?

A. Half way.

Q. How long did she stay downstairs?

A. Until I went and called the police.

Q. Till you went and called the police.

A. That is, as far as I know, she stayed down.

Q. I thought you testified she yelled Sylvia was faking.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. When I was trying to keep her downstairs.

Q. When was that, before you called the police?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long before?

A. The whole time.

Q. How much time elapsed from the time you first started restraining Gertrude till you called the police?

A. Maybe five or ten minutes.

Q. Could it have been Gertrude was attempting to help Sylvia upstairs there?

A. You don't know?

Q. You don't know?

A. No, sir.

Q. Well, did you testify Gertrude yelled Sylvia was faking, or words to that effect?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What else did she say?

A. That was all.

Q. What was Gertrude's appearance at that time to you - was she excited, nervous or calm?

A. Excited and nervous.

Q. What was her general physical condition from the first time you saw her in late July till October 26 Can you describe it to us, her general physical condition?

A. She did not look too bad in July and August.

Q. She did not look too bad in July and August. When did you next see her?

A. September.

Q. How did she look then?

A. She looked tired.

Q. She did not look too bad in July and August?

A. No, sir.

Q. September she looked tired?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What about October?

A. Her face was all puffy.

Q. When did you first observe that?

A. The 23rd, the day I went over there.

Q. October 23rd, Gertrude's face was puffy. What do you mean?

A. It had puffy splotches all over. She was wearing sunglasses.

Q. Did she ever complain of pain in your presence?

A. I believe she did.

Q. What did she say and when and where?

A. It was in the kitchen.

Q. When?

A. That Saturday.

Q. The 23rd?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she say?

A. She kept complaining her face was itching.

Q. Did she complain of anything else?

A. I believe she had a cold or something.

Q. Anything else?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. Now then, from October 23, Saturday, you did not go to the house again till Tuesday, is that right.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did not see Gertrude again during that time?

A. No, sir.

Q. What was Gertrude's appearance October 26th?

A. I did not take time to observe her.

Q. Did you see a cab come there Saturday morning, October 23rd?

A. No, sir.

Q. What time did you get there that morning?

A. I did not get there that morning.

Q. About what time?

A. 12:30 or 1:00 o'clock in the afternoon.

Q. Was Gertrude home then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How old are you?

A. Fifteen.

Q. What grade are you in?

A. Second year of my freshman.

Q. What do you study?

A. Art. Science.

Q. What kind of science - general?

A. General Science.

Q. Anything else?

A. General Math, Phys. Ed.

Q. Would you say you saw Gertrude at least fifteen or twenty times from - around August 1 till October 26?

A. No, sir.

Q. Less than that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times would you say you saw her?

A. Maybe eight or ten times.

Q. What would be the shortest duration of any visit during those eight or ten times?

A. I don't understand your question.

Q. How long was the shortest visit you had in those eight or ten times?

A. Two or three minutes.

Q. How long would be the longest?

A. Two hours, one and a half.

Q. Two or three minutes to two hours?

A. Approximately.

Q. Was Gertrude there all the time?

A. I believe she was.

Q. Now, during all that time you had Gertrude under observation and she was in your presence, you saw her beat Sylvia how many times?

A. Just that one Saturday.

Q. Just one time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did not see her do anything, Tuesday, did you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Whose idea was it to get the long poker?

A. Excuse me?

Q. Whose idea was it to get the long poker you testified about?

A. Long poker - you mean the eyehook?

Q. Yes, did you say the other day there was a long poker, three or four feet long?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Whose idea was that?

A. I don't recall.

Q. You selected something else, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was that?

A. An eyehook.

Q. That was not Gertrude's idea, was it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever have any conversation with Gertrude with reference to what you were going to do downstairs to Sylvia before you did it?

A. No, sir.

Q. I think you testified Gertrude told you to put the words on Sylvia's abdomen, did she do that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That morning?

A. No, sir.

Q. When?

A. Saturday afternoon.

Q. That is the first time you had any conversation with Gertrude about that, was it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What, exactly, did Gertrude tell you with reference to those words?

A. She asked me if I knew how a tattoo was put on and I said "yes". She asked Sylvia if she knew what a tattoo was. She said, "You branded my children. I am going to brand you".

Q. On the 26th when Gertrude was upstairs, what was she doing upstairs?

A. Just watching.

Q. She did not do anything at all, did she?

A. Not that I recall.

Q. What did she do then, what did Gertrude do then?

A. When?

Q. When she was upstairs. Did she stay upstairs?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did she do?

A. Stephanie told me to keep her downstairs so I took her downstairs and kept her downstairs.

Q. You took her downstairs and kept her downstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you testify she kept wanting to get upstairs?

A. Not constantly, not all the time.

Q. Did you testify you had a hard time keeping Gertrude downstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was she doing?

A. Every once in a while she would walk around and make a dive for the stairs and I would stop her.

Q. What were Gertrude and Stephanie doing at 5:30 when you went back to the house?

A. Gertrude was standing over by the wall crying.

Q. Gertrude was crying?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was Stephanie doing?

A. Kneeling down by Sylvia crying.

Q. Now, at the time Randy Lepper knocked on the door, what was Gertrude doing?

A. Still sitting at the kitchen table.

Q. Was there any time you saw there on October 23rd, any time that Gertrude tried to help Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did Gertrude do with the ball point pen?

A. She outlined the words on Sylvia's stomach.

Q. On her stomach?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Prior to, or after you made the markings?

A. Prior.

Q. In other words, she made the pattern for you to follow?

A. Not for me to follow. She was going to do it but she got sick and give me the needle to finish it.

Q. The purpose of the ball point pen markings was to make an outline where each letter was going to be?

A. I suppose so.

Q. Did you see Gertrude make the outline with the ball point pen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I think you testified it took you twenty-five or thirty minutes to do the actual etching?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did it take Gertrude to make this outline with the ball point pen?

A. Two minutes. Not really that long. One minute.

Q. I think you testified Gertrude selected a sewing needle, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was the sewing needle at that time?

A. In a little sewing kit.

Q. Whose idea was it about tattooing, originally, Gertrude's or yours?

A. It was Gertrude's. She was the one asked me if I knew what a tattoo was.

Q. You testified Gertrude ripped the blouse off of Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did not do that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, did you testify Friday that Gertrude told you before that Sylvia was not at the Center, but in the basement, did you testify to that?

A. I am sorry?

Q. Did you testify last Friday, in substance, Gertrude told you Sylvia was not at the Center but was in the basement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did Gertrude tell you Sylvia was in the Center? When did she tell you that?

A. I believe it was the first of October.

Q. The first of October?

A. Yes, sir,

Q. Did you testify when you was over there between the 1st and 2nd - is that when she told you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that the reason you did not go back?

A. No, sir.

MR. ERBECKER: No further questions.

THE COURT: Defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski.

MR. RICE: Defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski has no questions.

THE COURT: Defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard may examine.

MR. BOWMAN: No questions.

THE COURT: Any re-direct, Mr. Nedeff?

MR. NEDEFF: Yes, Your Honor.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. JAMES NEDEFF, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
RICHARD HOBBS

Q. Ricky, October 23rd, Saturday, last year, how old were you?

A. Fourteen.

Q. Now, you testified from the stand there you gave a statement, which is Exhibit No. 18, what you did Saturday scratched on Sylvia's stomach those words and made part of a letter 3. Did you abuse the girl any other time that day?

A. No, sir.

Q. Before that day or since that day did you ever strike her with a board?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever push her down the cellar steps?

A. No, sir.

Q. The upstairs steps?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever tie her up?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever deny her any food?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever strike her with any sort of curtain rods?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever strike her in the face?

A. Pardon?

MR. NEW: We object. He is leading the witness.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. Did you ever strike her in the face?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever do anything to this girl other than what you testified you did on that Saturday?

A. No, sir.

Q. You were over there two times, Tuesday, October 26th?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The first time you were over there how long?

MR. NEW: We object. It is not proper re-direct.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. October 26th were there a lot of police there at the house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. There were a lot of people on the street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see anybody else on the street - newspaper people - anybody else?

A. There were some photographers. I don't know if they were newspaper people or not.

Q. Who else did you see out there?

A. That is all, as far as I know.

Q. Now, can you tell this court and jury why you did what you did on Saturday to Sylvia Likens?

MR. NEW: We object. It is not proper re-direct.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

MR. NEDEFF: No other questions.

THE COURT: State of Indiana, any re-cross?

MR. NEW: Nothing further, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Defendant Gertrude Baniszewski, anything further?

MR. ERBECKER: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Defendant Paula Marie Baniszewski, any questions?

MR. RICE: Nothing.

THE COURT: Defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard, any questions?

MR. BOWMAN: No, sir.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

MR. ERBECKER: May we have a five minute recess?

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen, we will take a recess - five minutes. Come back to the jury room at a quarter of 11:00. By agreement of parties and with the consent of the State and the defendants, given in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. During the recess, don't read any newspaper or any other periodicals that may appear about this case. Don't watch anything or listen to anything that may be broadcast about the case. Don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion on the case till it is finally submitted to you.

JURY EXCUSED.

RECESS.

THE COURT: Mr. New, is it alright to proceed without Miss Wessner?

MR. NEW: It is.

THE COURT: Are you ready for the jury?

MR. RICE: I would like to make a motion out of the presence of the jury. I would like to request the court to instruct members of the Sheriff's Department to provide segregation for my client - while the case is being heard - from any other person presently being charged in this crime.

THE COURT: You want Paula segregated from the other defendants during recesses?

MR. RICE: At all times.

THE COURT: Hear me, Sheriff, it is a reasonable request. Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Defendant Hobbs may call his next witness.
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