Stephanie Baniszewski - Daughter of Defendant

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Stephanie Baniszewski - Daughter of Defendant

Postby admin » October 31st, 2010, 5:20 pm

THE COURT: Next witness, please.

MR. NEW: Stephanie Baniszewski.

WITNESS SWORN BY THE COURT.

THE COURT: Let the record show John Hammond is now in the courtroom.

STEPHANIE KAY BANISZEWSKI , a rebuttal witness called on behalf of the State of Indiana,
being duly sworn by the court, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. LEROY NEW,
DEPUTY PROSECUTOR

Q. State your name, please, to the court and jury.

A. Stephanie Kay Baniszewski.

Q. You are one of the defendants charged with First Degree Murder in this matter?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is your attorney present and in the courtroom at this time?

A. He is sitting by Mr. Bowman.

Q. What is his name?

A. John R. Hammond.

Q. Have you consulted with your attorney prior to your taking the witness stand today?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you received a subpoena from the State of Indiana to testify on behalf of the State?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Has your attorney advised you that you do not have to testify in this matter at all?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That you have the right to remain silent?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is it your wish that you now want to testify and answer questions such as may be asked you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have any promises been made to you by anybody to induce - you to testify?

A. No, sir, and if there was I would not take them.

Q. How old are you, Stephanie?

A. I am fifteen, going on sixteen.

Q. When were you born?

A. 1950.

Q. What date and month?

A. August 9.

THE COURT: May I ask one question, please? Do you consent, to testify in this case?

A. Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Next question, please.

Q. Miss Baniszewski, if you will speak up so I can hear you - if I can hear you the jury can hear you. Will you do that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Thank you. Were you home on the weekend of July 4, 1965?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where were you?

A. I was with my dad.

Q. How long had you been at your dad's?

A. About a week and a half.

Q. What were you doing there?

A. On vacation.

Q. Were you out of the city?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you return to 3850 East New York Street?

A. About July 17 or 16, somewhere along there.

Q. Was that your home, at that time, 3850 East New York Street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who lived there with you at that time?

A. My Mom and Paula and Marie and Shirley and Jimmy and little Denny.

Q. Was John there?

A. No.

Q. Where was he?

A. He was at Dad's.

Q. That is your Dad's?

A. Yes, he was living there still.

Q. What is your mother's name?

A. Gertrude.

Q. When you were speaking of Paula, John and the other people, those are your brothers and sisters?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember when John came back home from his Dad's?

A. Right before school started.

Q. In September?

A. I'd say the last part of August.

Q. Alright, when did you go -

THE COURT: Try to talk a little louder.

Q. When did you go to your father's before July 4, how long had you been there?

A. What day was July 4 on?

Q. I don't know. Do you have a recollection about how long you had been gone from home?

A. Well, I left on Saturday before the 4th of July, I think.

Q. On that weekend?

A. Yes.

Q. When you left, was there a girl by the name of Sylvia Likens living there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you later meet such a girl?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Had you met her before the weekend of July 4, 1965?

A. No, sir.

Q. When you returned on approximately the 16th or 17th of July, was there a girl by the name of Sylvia Likens living at your home?

A. She was with my Mom when they came after me.

Q. How did they come after you?

A. In my aunt's car.

Q. Who else came with your mother?

A. My aunt and Sylvia's brother.

Q. What is his name?

A. Danny, I think, or Denny.

Q. Who drove the car?

A. My Mom, I think.

Q. Sylvia and Danny were in the car when they came to pick you up?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was your father living then?

A. In Beech Grove.

Q. Did they come to your father's home to get you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you know they were coming?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When you got in the car, did your mother say anything with reference to Sylvia Likens?

A. No.

Q. Did she tell you what her name was?

A. I thought she was some friend of my aunt's.

Q. So nobody told you her name?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where did you go then?

A. Home.

Q. Did Sylvia get out of the car and go inside?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever learn she was living there, staying with you?

A. Not till about the next morning.

Q. Who told you?

A. I think it was my Mom.

Q. Was there anyone else besides Sylvia staying there that you had not seen when you left for vacation?

A. Jenny Likens.

Q. Sylvia's sister?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, did you remain home from then on till school started in September?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you have occasion to be with Sylvia and Jenny during the month of July and August?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever go to church with them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you go?

A. Grace Memorial Baptist Church on Alabama Street.

Q. Do you remember after you got home on the 16th or 17th, how soon it was you went to church with Sylvia or Jenny?

A. I think it was about a week after the Sunday, I remember we asked them to go.

Q. You asked them to go?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they go?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you get to church?

A. On the church bus.

Q. Was Sylvia in your Sunday School class?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she own a Bible?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you go regularly or did you just go irregularly to church?

A. Regularly.

Q. Did Sylvia go regularly?

A. Most of the time.

Q. Now, were you ever present in the church when Sylvia was asked to come forward and dedicate her life?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall about when that was?

A. It was sometime in August.

Q. And was this at Grace Memorial Church about which you have testified?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who else was in church with her when she made this decision?

A. I think her sister was. I think everybody was, except Paula.

Q. You were there?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you sitting in the Sanctuary at the time of the call for people to come forward?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did Sylvia do, if anything?

A. Well, she got up out of her seat and she just walked up there and asked for help.

Q. And that was in the presence of the congregation?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she later go to church and Sunday School at this same place?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you go with her?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you and Sylvia friends?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What grade was Sylvia in?

A. At that time, she was in the 9th.

Q. In the 9th grade?

A. Yes.

Q. What grade were you in at that time?

A. I was not in school. We both were not in school yet.

Q. What grade did you enter in September?

A. Tenth.

Q. What grade did Sylvia enter?

A. 9th. 9-A.

Q. Where did you enroll in September?

A. Tech.

Q. Where did Sylvia enroll?

MR. BOWMAN: Your Honor, I will object to this with respect to Coy Hubbard and John Baniszewski. It is not proper. We ask the court to give a limiting instruction.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. At Tech.

Q. During the month of July or August, did you see anybody do anything to Sylvia you felt was not proper?

MR. BOWMAN: We object to the form of the question.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Did you see anybody strike Sylvia during those months?

A. No, sir.

Q. During the month of July or August, did anybody break an arm or wrist?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was that?

A. My sister.

Q. What is her name?

A. Paula.

Q. Do you remember when that was?

A. I don't think so. I was not there when she broke it.

Q. Did you ever talk to Paula about it?

A. Yes.

Q. What month was it?

A. In August, I think.

Q. August of 1965?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was the conversation?

A. In the front room, I think.

Q. Of your home?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was present at the time you talked with Paula?

MR. BOWMAN: We object. She has not said she talked to Paula.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. I am mixed up now. I have forgot the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. Everybody except the three little kids.

Q. Who is everybody?

A. Mom was in the kitchen and Johnny and the rest of them were around the house and little Denny.

Q. What time of day was this conversation about Paula's wrist?

A. I say late afternoon.

Q. What did you say and what did Paula say?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained as to defendant Gertrude Baniszewski.

Q. As you best recall.

THE COURT: You can answer the question.

A. I forgot that one too.

THE COURT: Read the question to her, please.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. She just said that she broke her wrist on Sylvia's jaw.

Q. On Sylvia's jaw - that is what she said?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she have a cast put on it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she say anything else about striking Sylvia?

A. I think she said - I don't know why she said she did it.

Q. Now, during most of July or August, did you see any one else strike or do anything else to Sylvia?

A. No, I don't think so.

Q. Did you ever see Paula strike Sylvia again after she broke her wrist?

A. Once, I think.

Q. Do you remember when that was?

A. I think it was before she broke her wrist.

Q. Before she broke her wrist?

A. Yes.

Q. Before the cast was on?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she hit her with?

A. Just her hand.

Q. Where was that?

A. On her face.

Q. Where did it take place?

A. In the front room, I think.

Q. What did she hit Sylvia for?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you see Sylvia do anything just before she got hit?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was anyone else present when Paula hit her?

A. I think Mom was and Johnny.

Q. In the view of this striking?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know why she hit her?

A. Something about a name.

Q. A name - what about a name?

A. Just something Sylvia said.

Q. Did you hear Sylvia say something?

A. No, sir.

Q. What about a name, Stephanie?

A. Just a bad name.

Q. What about a bad name?

A. She said - well, I was told that after she slapped her she called Mom a bad name.

Q. Who said that?

A. Paula.

Q. Paula said Sylvia had called your mother a bad name?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you there at the time she got hit?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you hear Sylvia call her a bad name?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, did Paula ever hit Sylvia while she had her cast on?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she hit her with?

A. The cast.

Q. Where did she hit her?

A. On the front tooth.

Q. What happened, what did you see?

A. She just walked up to her and got about this far away and tapped her on the teeth.

Q. What happened to Sylvia's mouth?

A. It started to bleed.

Q. What did Sylvia do or say?

A. She did not say nothing. She just started crying.

Q. What was Sylvia doing at the time she got hit?

A. Just standing up.

Q. Did she say or do anything to Paula to make her hit her in the mouth with the cast?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did you do, if anything?

A. I took - well, I did not exactly take her - I told Sylvia to come upstairs and have me wash it off.

Q. Did she?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did she cry?

A. Not too long.

Q. What did Paula say when she hit her, if anything?

A. She just said, "If you say anything else, I am going to break the cast on you".

Q. Do you know when this occurred, what month, what week?

A. About a week after she got the cast on.

Q. During the month of August, did your mother ever accuse Sylvia of doing anything?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she accuse her of doing?

A. She said she took some money and then that she was stealing. She said that she took $10.00 from her and she was stealing things out of the drug stores and everything.

Q. Were you there when your mother spoke to Sylvia about that?

A. I think so.

Q. Do you recall what your mother said and what Sylvia said, if anything, about it?

A. I think she asked her what she did with it.

Q. What did Sylvia say, if anything?

A. She said she did not take it.

Q. What did your mother say, if anything?

A. She said she did.

Q. Did your mother do anything to her?

A. Spanked her, I think.

Q. With what?

A. Her hand, I think.

Q. How many times?

A. About three.

Q. Where did she hit her?

A. On the bottom.

Q. Did your mother ever talk to Sylvia about anything else other than money and stealing things?

A. Well, they started talking about sex.

Q. Who started talking about sex?

A. Mom did.

Q. Who did she talk to?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Do you remember about when it was, Stephanie?

A. About the end of August.

Q. Before you started to school?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did the conversation take place?

A. In the front room.

Q. Who was present when it was going on?

A. Mom and Paula and that is about it, and me.

Q. And you?

A. Yes.

Q. And Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. Who started the conversation?

A. I think Sylvia started talking about her boyfriends or something.

Q. Do you remember what Sylvia said?

A. Just that she wished she could see them.

Q. Could see her boyfriends?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did she say that to?

A. Nobody in particular.

Q. What did your mother say?

A. She just started asking questions.

Q. Stephanie, I can barely hear you and if you will tell me what she said as best you can -

MR. BOWMAN: To which these defendants object.

THE COURT: Defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard. Sustained as to said defendants only. Answer the question and talk in the microphone.

Q. What did she say?

A. Just started asking her questions.

Q. Do you recall what your mother asked her?

A. Yes, if she ever done anything with a boy.

Q. What did Sylvia say?

A. Well, she kind of went around and said she did.

Q. What else happened? Relate the conversation as you recall it.

A. Well, she started talking about when they lived in California and went to some kind of park on a date and that she liked a lot of boys and went skating and everything and said - then Mom asked her if she ever went - ever did anything with them and she said "yes" and then Jenny came in and she said - we all started talking - and Jenny started talking about this boy and Sylvia said something about -

Q. What did your mother say, if anything?

A. She asked her why she did it.

Q. How did she ask why she did it - in a loud voice or just conversational?

A. Just in a conversational tone.

Q. What did Sylvia say?

A. She said she did not know why.

Q. Was there any other conversation at that time?

A. No, sir, I don't think so.

Q. You don't recall anything else?

A. No.

Q. Now, do you ever recall any other conversation your mother might have had during the months of July or August, with Sylvia?

A. Well, Sylvia seemed to be getting big in the stomach and started talking about having a baby and she said Sylvia looked like she was going to have a baby.

Q. When was that?

A. About - either the end of August or the beginning of September.

Q. Did you hear the conversation?

A. All they said was Mom said, "You are certainly getting a big stomach, Sylvia", and she said, "It looks like you are going to have a baby".

Q. Did Sylvia say anything?

A. She said, "Yes, I am sure getting fat, ain't I"?

Q. Was that the extent of it?

A. That was all.

Q. Now then, did you start to school with Sylvia at Tech in the fall, in September?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you both go to school together?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How did you get there?

A. Walk.

Q. Now, did she enroll in school?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she go regularly during September?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. During that period of time, were you in any classes with her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you go to school with her in the morning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you actually see her go into the school house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever come home with her?

A. No, because she got out before I did.

Q. During the month of September, where did Sylvia sleep in your house?

A. Upstairs.

Q. What room?

A. The back bedroom.

Q. What is the back bedroom?

A. The one in back.

Q. How do you get there when you come upstairs in the center of the house?

A. Well, there is the front bedroom here and the bathroom and the back bedroom.

Q. When you come up the stairway in the center of the house, if you turn right, what do you go in?

A. The bathroom.

Q. If you turn right again, where do you go?

A. The back bedroom.

Q. Is that what you are talking about?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you sleep?

A. The front bedroom.

Q. Upstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Who slept in the bedroom with you?

A. My Mom.

Q. Anyone else?

A. Little Denny sometimes when he would get to sleep.

Q. Who slept in the back bedroom?

A. All the girls.

Q. Who are they?

A. Shirley, Marie, Sylvia and Jenny and little Jimmy did.

Q. What did Sylvia sleep on?

A. They took turns.

Q. Who took turns?

A. The kids. They alternated.

Q. What kids are you talking about?

A. Marie and Shirley and Jimmy and Jenny and Sylvia, and they took turns. There was one mattress that was too big for any of the beds.

Q. Where was it?

A. On the floor.

Q. There was a bed?

A. Yes.

Q. They took turns sleeping, sometimes on the bed and sometimes on the mattress?

A. Yes.

Q. How many children slept in the back bedroom?

A. Five.

Q. Did Jenny sleep in there?

A. Yes, sir, she slept on the bed most of the time.

Q. Now, during the month of September, did you see anybody strike or do anything to Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you see?

MR. BOWMAN: We object unless the time be stated, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Objection sustained as to defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard.

Q. What did you see?

A. I am sorry - well, it was the week I was sick.

Q. The week you were sick?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Had school started?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long had school been started?

A. About - it had just started whole days.

Q. O.K. Then did you fix about what week that would be in September?

A. About the second.

Q. The second week in September?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did this take place?

A. In the front room.

Q. Why were you home?

A. Well, I got bit by a spider.

Q. Where did that happen?

A. I don't know.

Q. Where were you bit?

A. On my arm.

Q. You were sick from a spider bite?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you stay home all day?

A. Two days.

Q. What did you see?

A. Well, the first day I was home sick, Sylvia come home and she had a gym suit with her and Mom asked her where she got it and Sylvia said she found it and Mom said - Sylvia took it upstairs and came back and while Sylvia was upstairs Mom said, "I bet she took it".

Q. Who did she say that to?

A. Me.

Q. What happened when Sylvia came downstairs?

A. I went back to sleep.

Q. Did anything else happen with reference to the gym suit?

A. An hour later - I guess it was an hour later.

Q. What was that?

A. I woke up and heard somebody arguing with somebody else.

Q. Did you see who it was?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was it arguing?

A. My Mom and Sylvia.

Q. Where were they arguing?

A. In the middle of the room.

Q. What was said?

A. Mom kept saying Sylvia took the gym suit and Sylvia said she did not, she found it on the ground.

Q. Did your mother do anything else?

A. She kept saying she did and Sylvia kept saying she did not and finally Sylvia - I guess just - I don't know exactly, but she said - she gave up and said she did.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Well, they started talking about having babies again.

Q. Who started that?

A. Mom, and then she talked about what you should do and what you should not do before you are married.

Q. Alright?

A. And she brought her in the front room and sat her on the edge of the couch where I was laying down, and I told Mom what was the matter and she kept saying that Sylvia done something and everything and she took this gym suit.

Q. Your mother took the gym suit?

A. No.

Q. Stephanie, when you say "she" I don't know who you mean.

A. My Mom said Sylvia took the gym suit.

Q. Your mother said that to you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Sylvia was there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your mother said Sylvia had taken the gym suit and then what happened?

A. I don't know how they got off the subject but they started talking about sex again and Mom said that you should never do anything and she did something she should never do till she was married.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Kept saying she did not do anything.

Q. Did anything else happen at that time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What happened?

A. My mother kicked her.

Q. With her foot?

A. Yes.

Q. What was Sylvia doing?

A. Sitting down.

Q. Did she kick her hard?

A. I don't know.

Q. What did Sylvia do or say?

A. "Oh".

Q. Anything else?

A. She kept saying, "You should never, you should never, you should never".

Q. Who is she?

A. My Mom.

Q. Did she do anything else to Sylvia at that time?

A. No, sir, but she looked at me and I started screaming at her?

Q. You started screaming at who?

A. My Mom.

Q. What did you say?

A. I said, "She did not do anything".

Q. Then what happened?

A. Well, she sent Sylvia upstairs and I was crying and Coy came over and asked me what was wrong and Mom said that Sylvia got me upset. I said, "No, she did not, you did".

Q. Did anything else then happen at that time?

A. Coy just said it would be alright.

Q. Now, did you ever see your mother burn Sylvia with a match?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did that take place?

A. About a week after I was sick.

Q. O.K. Can you tell where it took place?

A. I'd say in the front room.

Q. Who was there?

A. All the kids except Paula.

Q. Tell the jury what you saw.

A. Somebody stole something and they said Sylvia did it and Mom said - when I walked in - that she had stolen something and she was burning her fingers.

Q. Who was burning whose fingers?

A. My Mom was burning Sylvia's fingers.

Q. With what?

A. A match.

Q. How did she do it?

A. Just passing it over her fingers.

Q. Over Sylvia's fingers?

A. Yes.

Q. What did your mother say?

A. "I don't want ever to catch you stealing anything again".

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. Jerked her hand away.

Q. Did she say or do anything?

A. Just "Oh".

Q. Did she cry?

A. If she did, I did not see her.

Q. What did your mother do or say after she burned her fingers?

A. Nothing.

Q. Did you ever see your mother burn her with anything else?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is that the only time you ever saw her burn her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did your mother ever burn you?

A. A long time ago.

Q. What with?

A. The stove.

Q. How did she do that?

MR. BOWMAN: We are going to object. It is too remote.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Now then, during the month of September, did you see anybody else do anything to Sylvia?

A. I just seen my brother hit her in the arm and he said, "It's your turn".

Q. What is your brother's name?

A. Johnny.

Q. John?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did he say "It is your turn" to?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Did she hit him?

A. Yes and she laughed.

Q. When was that, in September?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who else was there?

A. I think Paula was.

Q. Did anyone else hit Sylvia and take turns?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, did anything happen at school that caused you to have any difficulty with Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was that?

A. Well, this boy came up to me one day in school and he asked how much I would take and I did not know what he meant. I asked him what did he mean and he said, "How much do want to go to bed with me" and so I did not know what to do. I guess I was more frightened than anything. I got kind of mad and said, "Who told you that"? He said, "Just a friend of yours". I said, "Some friend" and I asked him who it was and he said it was Sylvia.

Q. Did you then tell Sylvia about it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you do that?

A. Oh, after I got home.

Q. The same day?

A. I think so.

Q. Who was there when you told Sylvia?

A. Everybody.

Q. Was your mother there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was John there?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Was Paula there?

A. I don't remember that either. She might have been. I don't remember.

Q. Your mother was there?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she hear what you said to Sylvia?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Did you tell your mother?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you tell her that same day?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Did you do anything to Sylvia for telling?

A. I slugged her.

Q. How?

A. My fist.

Q. Hard?

A. I think it hurt me more than it hurt her.

Q. Where did you hit her?

A. On the jaw.

Q. How many times?

A. Once.

Q. What did Sylvia do or say?

A. She said she was sorry and started crying.

Q. Did she cry?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she hit you back?

A. No, sir.

Q. Then what happened?

A. I ran upstairs and was crying.

Q. How soon did you tell your mother?

A. It was either that day or the next day.

Q. What did your mother say?

A. She asked Sylvia why she did it. She said, "Just so she would get as bad a name as I have".

Q. She said that to your mother?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did your mother say?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did she say or do anything to Sylvia for telling on you?

A. I think she spanked her.

Q. Did you see it?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did you ever see your mother spank Sylvia with a board?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times?

A. Three, I think.

Q. Do you remember when these spankings took place, Stephanie?

A. It was one day when I was sick.

Q. When you were home?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I will hand you what has been marked State's Exhibit No. 14. Have you ever seen it before?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you ever seen your mother hit Sylvia with it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times?

A. Three or four, something like that.

Q. Did she ever hit her with it during the month of October?

A. I never seen her.

Q. You did not see her?

A. No.

Q. I will hand you what is marked State's Exhibit No. 15. Have you ever seen that before?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see your mother hit Sylvia with that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Never?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she ever whip you children with it?

A. A long time ago.

Q. Did you work, Stephanie?

A. What?

Q. Did you work after you started to school?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you work at school for your meals?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you work?

A. In the cafeteria.

Q. What did you do?

A. Whenever they ran out of food we would go back and get what they needed.

Q. Did Sylvia work?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she do?

A. She did the same thing I did.

Q. Was that all during the month of September?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. For that, what did you get?

A. Free lunch.

Q. Did Sylvia get free lunch during September?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Sylvia continue on in school at Tech - did she continue to go to school?

A. In September?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she ever quit Tech?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know why?

A. Not exactly.

Q. When was it she quit?

A. About when September was over.

Q. About the end of September?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever talk with your mother about why Sylvia was not going to school?

A. She said she did not want to.

Q. Who said?

A. Mom said Sylvia did not want to go.

Q. Did Sylvia ever say that?

A. Not that I remember.

Q. Now then, did you ever see Sylvia go to school in October at all?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Did you ever - did anyone ever tell you to tell people at school she was not coming back?

MR. ERBECKER: We object to the leading question.

THE COURT: Overruled. Yes or no. Read her the question.

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST QUESTION.

A. No, sir.

Q. Did Sylvia have long hair?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long was it?

A. About this long.

Q. As long as yours?

A. Not right now. It was.

Q. Below her shoulders?

A. It just hit her shoulders.

Q. Did she comb her hair when she went to school?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she brush it?

A. She did not have a brush, I don't think.

Q. Did she wash it?

A. About once a week, maybe.

Q. Did she clean her clothes for school?

A. She ironed them.

Q. Did you ever see her wash her clothes?

A. I think I did.

Q. Did you have a washing machine?

A. No, sir.

Q. How did Sylvia wash her clothes?

A. In the sink.

Q. How did you wash yours?

A. Sometimes in the sink.

Q. Did you have a cook stove during that time?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever have one between July 4th and the end of October?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did you heat your meals with?

A. On a hotplate.

Q. Did you have utensils to eat with?

A. We had more forks than anything.

Q. Did you have spoons?

A. One spoon.

Q. One spoon?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, during the month of September did, Sylvia ever eat breakfast that you noticed before she went to school?

A. Whenever she had time.

Q. But it was available to her. Did you ever see anybody during the month of September, besides your mother when you said she burned her, do anything else to her?

A. I don't remember. I don't think so.

Q. Did you ever see anyone hit her, push her, do anything like that?

A. I did not exactly see anybody push her, but she went flying down stairs.

Q. Who did?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Where were you?

A. On the couch.

Q. What did you see?

A. Her on the floor.

Q. What happened then?

A. She got up and Paula came down stairs and Johnny came down stairs and said, "Wasn't that fun"?

Q. "Wasn't that fun"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anyone else do anything to her during the month of September?

A. No, sir, but I don't think so.

Q. Did you do most of the grocery shopping?

MR. ERBECKER: We are going to object. This is not proper.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did Sylvia ever go with you to the grocery?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see her take anything in the grocery?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, after Sylvia stopped going to school in October, did you see anyone do anything to her after that?

A. I don't remember now.

Q. Were you home on the 5th of October when her parents came?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see them at the house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you there when they left?

A. I was outside but I seen them leave.

Q. Did you hear them say anything to your mother or any one else while they were there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did they bring anything when they came?

A. Yes, Sylvia's and Jenny's clothes.

Q. O.K. Did you see them do that?

A. I seen the clothes.

Q. O.K. But you heard nothing said while they were there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you happen to recall about how long they stayed?

A. About an hour and a half, something like that.

Q. Now, at the time they were there did you see any bruises on Sylvia, or marks of any kind?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, did you ever see or hear anyone put her in a hot tub of water?

A. What do you mean hear?

Q. Anything you might have had occasion to be present when anyone put Sylvia in a hot tub of water?

A. I still don't know what you mean by hear.

Q. Do you know any occasion when she was put in water?

MR. BOWMAN: We object. It calls for hearsay, I think even the witness knows that.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Just one of the kids said they gave her a bath.

Q. Not what they said. Were you present any time when she was given a hot bath?

A. No, but I came home one day and heard somebody screaming. I ran to the stairs and I asked Paula who screamed. She said one of the little kids. I wanted to go upstairs and she said, "No, you stay down here".

Q. Who was upstairs?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you see Sylvia later?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you see her?

A. Downstairs.

Q. What did you observe?

A. Her hair was stringy.

Q. Stringy?

A. Yes.

Q. What else did you see?

A. That was all.

Q. Do you know about when that was?

A. I think it was about the end of September.

Q. The end of September. Now, did your mother ever tell Sylvia she could not have anything to eat?

A. Yes.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Did Sylvia continue to receive food while she lived there, in October?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she continue to eat at the table?

A. Whenever there was room.

Q. How long did that occur?

A. Till about the middle of October.

Q. Then what happened?

A. They set anywhere they could.

Q. Now, during the month of October, did you ever see Sylvia put a pepsi-cola bottle in herself?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did that occur?

A. I can't specifically say.

Q. Where did it take place?

A. In the front room.

Q. Who was present when she did it?

A. Mom and Paula and Johnny, I think.

Q. Johnny, your brother?

A. Yes.

Q. Anyone else?

A. I think Jenny was.

Q. Stephanie, I can't hear you with your finger in your mouth. If you will speak to me. What did you see?

A. Well, I walked in and she was - had it in her.

Q. She was inserting this in between her legs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was looking on?

A. The people I just mentioned.

Q. What was said, if anything?

A. Nothing.

Q. What did you do or say?

A. I walked up to her and told her to go upstairs.

Q. Did she?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you do or say then?

A. I don't remember saying anything.

Q. Did your mother say anything to you when she was sitting there watching that?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Did Paula say anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did John say anything?

A. He had a funny look on his face.

Q. Did you ever see your mother put any medication on Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. When she hurt her knee.

Q. How did she hurt her knee?

A. I don't know.

Q. What did the wound look like?

A. You know what it looks like when you fall down.

Q. Was it cut?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did it bleed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What kind of medication did your mother put on it?

A. Some kind of white cream she said it was that she got at the drug store that was good for sores and everything.

Q. Did she put medicine on any other part of her body that you saw?

A. I don't think so.

Q. So her knee was the only time you ever put anything on a wound?

A. I think she had something on her elbow.

Q. What did you see on her elbow?

A. Like was on her knee.

Q. Was it a scar or wound of some kind?

A. Like when you fall down and skin your elbow.

Q. When did you first see that?

A. About the middle of October.

Q. The middle of October. Was that the first wound you ever saw on Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anyone tie Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was that?

A. Me.

Q. O.K. Anyone else?

A. Johnny.

Q. How often would you and Johnny tie her?

A. Well, I don't know if you would actually say she was tied up.

Q. Why did you tie her?

A. Well, Mom said that she was wetting the bed and she wanted to make sure she did not go to the bathroom, and if she ever wet the bed again she could not go to the bathroom till she quit wetting the bed.

Q. Did she tell you what to do?

A. She said to tie her up. All the kids took her upstairs and Mom was standing by the door and I told Sylvia to put her hands this far apart and I wrapped it around her hands and about once or twice and put it under and took it down to the foot and wrapped it around her toe. I wrapped it around her leg and took it to the doorknob and tied it around the doorknob.

Q. How many times did you do that to keep her from using the bathroom?

A. I doubt if that stopped her from using the bathroom.

Q. I understand that is why you said you did it. Your mother told you to?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. Just that once.

Q. How many times did you see Johnny tie her?

A. Just once.

Q. Where did he tie her?

A. In the basement.

Q. In the basement?

A. Yes.

Q. After she had gone down there to stay and sleep?

A. I don't know.

Q. How did Johnny tie her in the basement?

A. Well, at first he had her hands over her head. She got a kind of funny look on her face and he untied her and tied her back on again looser.

Q. Can you tell the jury how he tied her?

A. Just on the hands.

Q. What did he do with her when he tied her?

A. He tied her to the basement steps.

Q. Where were her hands when he tied her?

A. Above her.

Q. Above her head?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he tie them to?

A. The banister.

Q. Did he leave her there?

A. Not too long.

Q. How long is too long?

A. About fifteen minutes.

Q. You saw him tie her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know why he tied her?

A. No.

Q. Did you see anyone do anything to her while she was tied with her hands above her head?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see Johnny tie her again?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see anyone put a gag in her mouth?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see anyone else hit her?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see anyone take her and flip her over their head?

A. One time when everybody was doing it.

Q. Yes, who was everybody?

A. Everybody except Mom.

Q. Name them.

A. Paula, Johnny - no, not Johnny - and Coy and somebody else.

Q. Who is Coy?

A. Him. (indicating defendant Coy Hubbard)

Q. Are you pointing to the defendant, Coy Hubbard?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you do this?

A. In the front room.

Q. You were flipping Sylvia over your head?

A. We was flipping everybody.

Q. Did you flip Sylvia?

A. I don't think so.

Q. You don't think Sylvia got flipped?

A. I think once - once or twice.

Q. Where did she land?

A. She missed the mattress.

Q. On what did she land?

A. On the rug.

Q. What part of her body hit the floor?

A. The bottom.

Q. That was twice?

A. Yes.

Q. Who flipped her?

A. Paula did, I think.

Q. Paula. Are you sure?

A. I am pretty sure.

Q. Twice?

A. I think so.

Q. Now, did you ever see Paula strike Sylvia?

A. I don't know. It depends on what you mean by strike.

Q. Anything you saw Paula do, if anything?

A. I don't remember when it was. In a way it seemed like a little game to her.

Q. Who?

A. Paula.

Q. What kind of game was it?

A. That ever time she seen anything she would pick it up and try to hit Sylvia with it.

MR. NEW: I hate to do this. Could read the answer back?

THE REPORTER READ THE LAST ANSWER.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, retire to the jury room a minute or two. During the recess, do not come in the courtroom. Don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion on this case till it is finally submitted to you. Jury and Alternate Jurors excused a few minutes.

JURY EXCUSED.

THE COURT: Alright, now let's everybody be seated. When we started this afternoon, I asked if you consented to testify. Mr. New asked you if you wanted to talk and you said yes. I have heard you talk and you talk pretty loud when you want to. If you don't want to testify, that is your business. If you do want to testify, testify so people can hear you.

A. I would have to be screaming all the time.

THE COURT: That is alright. You do that so people can hear you. Bring in the jury.

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

Q. Will you tell the jury what Paula would pick up and try to hit Sylvia with?

A. Anything.

Q. Can you give anything for example, to be specific?

A. A hair spray can.

Q. Did she hit her with it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was it in the house?

A. On the dresser.

Q. Were you there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What had Sylvia done before Paula picked up the hair spray can and hit Sylvia with it?

A. Nothing.

Q. What did you do with it?

A. Took it away from her.

Q. Who?

A. Paula.

Q. What did Paula say?

A. She did not say anything. She just went to get something else.

Q. Did she get something else?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she get?

A. A perfume bottle or anything.

Q. What would she do with it?

A. Try to hit Sylvia with it.

Q. Did she throw it or keep it in her hand?

A. Kept it in her hand.

Q. How did she try to hit Sylvia?

A. She would reach over me.

Q. You were pushing her back?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know what Sylvia had done just before this took place?

A. No, sir.

Q. What would Paula say?

A. She acted kind of funny.

Q. Did she say anything while she was striking at Sylvia?

A. She seemed to be smiling all the time.

Q. While she was trying to hit Sylvia in the head?

A. Anywhere, really.

Q. Did she ever hit her in the head that you saw?

A. Yes.

Q. What with?

A. A hair spray can.

Q. What part of the head did she hit with that?

A. This part.

Q. What did Sylvia do when she got hit in the head with the can?

A. She did not do nothing.

Q. Do you remember when that was?

A. About Wednesday before she died.

Q. During that period of time, the latter part of October, did you see anyone else do anything to Sylvia that you were present and observed?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever do anything to Sylvia during the month of October that would hurt her?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Would you remember it if you did?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever burn her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever cut her?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever hit her with anything?

A. I remember one time I spanked her.

Q. What with?

A. A board.

Q. With a board?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the board I showed you?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did it take you to spank her?

A. Not too long.

Q. How many times did you hit her?

A. I counted five.

Q. Where did you hit her?

A. On the hind end.

Q. Where she sat?

A. Yes.

Q. Anywhere else on her body that you hit her with the board?

A. No.

Q. Why did you do that?

A. I was told she did something bad.

Q. Who told you?

A. Everybody told me she did something bad.

Q. Who is everybody?

A. Not exactly everybody, just Mom and Paula and I think somebody else. I don't remember who it was.

Q. When did you hit her with the board?

A. This was about either the end of August or September.

Q. Early in September?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you hit her at all in October?

A. Not that I can remember.

Q. Did you see Sylvia punished for wetting the bed?

A. No, just that she was not supposed to go to the bathroom.

Q. Why was she not supposed to go to the bathroom?

A. Mom said that she could not go to the bathroom till she learned not to wet the bed.

Q. So you tied her in bed to make her quit wetting the bed, till she quit wetting the bed and she could not go to the bathroom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Why was she sent to the basement to stay? Do you know?

A. No, sir.

Q. When was she sent down there to sleep down there?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you continue to sleep in the back bedroom?

A. I was downstairs.

Q. Who was?

A. Me and Mom.

Q. When did that occur?

A. When we decided there was not enough room upstairs.

Q. What month was it?

A. I think it was the middle of September.

Q. You continued to sleep downstairs from then on till Sylvia died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know where Sylvia slept during the night the last week she lived?

A. Well, off and on.

Q. Where did she sleep?

A. She kept going back and forth.

Q. From where to where?

A. Upstairs to the basement and then upstairs and back to the basement.

Q. Who would tell her to do one or the other, if anybody did?

A. I don't remember. I don't remember anybody saying anything.

Q. Where would she sleep in the basement?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did she have a bed down there?

A. There was springs. I don't think there was a mattress.

Q. Did you ever see her lying down in the basement?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Did you ever take her food down there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. About a week and a half before she died, or a week.

Q. What did you take her down there?

A. Some do-nuts and some water.

Q. Do-nuts and water?

A. Yes.

Q. Had she asked you for it?

A. No.

Q. You just took it down there so she would have it to eat?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she eat it?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she eat anything else?

A. I don't know.

Q. Why did you take it to her - did you know she was hungry?

A. I just thought maybe she wanted it.

Q. Did you know she could not get food at the table?

A. She ate like everyone else.

Q. What was your reason for taking the do-nut and water to the basement?

A. I don't know.

Q. You did it on your own?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she loosing weight?

A. I don't know. I can't tell.

Q. Do you recall if she did or not?

A. She looked as heavy as ever to me.

Q. Did you ever take anything else to her while she while she was in the basement?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia sick?

A. When she first got there.

Q. Did you ever see her sick during the month of October?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did she ever pass out and fall down?

MR. ERBECKER: That is a leading and suggestive question, Your Honor. We are going to object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. About a week before she died.

Q. Where did she pass out?

A. In the middle room.

Q. What room?

A. The middle room downstairs.

Q. Downstairs?

A. Between the front room and the kitchen.

Q. O.K. Can you describe what you saw Sylvia do about a week before she died?

A. I don't know exactly, she just went -

Q. Fainted?

A. Yes, I guess that is what you call it.

Q. What did you do?

A. I told Johnny to get a rag and he went to get it.

Q. Did he bring the rag?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you do?

A. I wiped her off.

Q. Where did you wipe her?

A. On the face.

Q. Anything else?

A. Just around her.

Q. How long was she out?

A. Fifteen minutes, something like that.

Q. Did she finally get up on her own?

A. She needed a little help.

Q. Did you help her?

A. Me and Johnny did.

Q. What did you do with her?

A. Took her upstairs.

Q. What did you do with her?

A. She slept on the mattress.

Q. Did you see any marks on her then?

A. No.

Q. You did not observe any marks on her body at all?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ask her what was the matter?

A. No.

Q. Did you tell your mother what happened?

A. Mom was there.

Q. She saw it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she do anything to help her?

A. She did not know what to do.

Q. Did you call the doctor?

A. I did not know how.

Q. Did your mother call the doctor?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why not?

A. I don't think there was any money in the house.

Q. There was no money in the house?

A. No.

Q. So, no help was given her except your wet wash rag?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, were you home Saturday before Sylvia died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you home all day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see anything done to Sylvia that day?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where in the home were you?

A. Asleep.

Q. Where were you sleeping?

A. In the bed, in the middle room.

Q. That is downstairs on the main floor?

A. Yes.

Q. During the day you were asleep?

A. Yes.

Q. Had you taken any medication?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What kind of medication had you taken?

MR. ERBECKER: We object to this.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. What time of day were you sleeping?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. All day.

Q. All day?

A. About from about 10:00 till about 6:00 or 5:30.

Q. 10:00 in the morning?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell the jury who was in your house that day?

A. No, sir.

Q. Who was there when you went to sleep at 10:00 o'clock in the morning?

A. Nobody.

Q. Was your mother there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where was she?

A. She went to the doctor.

Q. Did she leave the house?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did she leave with?

A. Johnny.

Q. You recall that, you have that recollection now, do you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And she left before you went to sleep?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did she come back?

A. I don't know. I don't know what time it was.

Q. What is the next thing you recall Saturday the 23rd.

A. She was asleep beside me.

Q. Who was?

A. My Mom.

Q. What time was that?

A. I don't know, probably in the afternoon sometime.

Q. Late afternoon?

A. Early.

Q. Who else did you see besides your mother sleeping beside you?

MR. BOWMAN: We object to the form of the question. It is leading and suggestive.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Little Denny, the baby.

Q. Anyone else?

A. That is all.

Q. Were you there that evening?

A. I think so.

Q. Did you see Richard Hobbs?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Did you see him the following day?

A. I think I did.

Q. Were you home the next day, on Sunday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you go to church?

A. Not that day.

Q. Why not?

A. Because I was sick.

Q. Did you stay home all day?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see Coy Hubbard?

A. No.

Q. Did you stay home the next day, on Monday?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did you do then?

A. Went to school.

Q. Did you go all day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time did you get home?

A. About 5:00.

Q. Did you see Coy Hubbard that evening?

A. I think I did.

Q. In the home?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see him do anything while he was there?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did he do while he was there after you got home?

A. We set down and talked.

Q. Was that before supper or after?

A. I think before because he had to go home.

Q. About what time was it?

A. About 6:00 o'clock.

Q. In any event, it was before 8:30?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did he stay?

A. Not over and hour, I don't think.

Q. Was he there when you got home from school?

A. He came and met me.

Q. At school?

A. No, I take a short cut and come down the alley and he met me between the alley and my home.

Q. He walked home with you part of the way?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know whether he had been at your home earlier that day?

A. No, sir.

Q. You were not there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Where did you sleep the night of Monday, the 25th?

A. Well, I started out on the couch.

Q. Where is the couch?

A. In the front room.

Q. Was anybody else sleeping in that room with you?

A. No, sir, that is the front room.

Q. Who else was sleeping downstairs?

A. Just the people that slept down there, Mom and little Denny.

Q. Your Mom slept in another room downstairs?

A. She was in the middle room.

Q. What time did you go to bed Monday night?

A. Well, I went to sleep when I got - when Coy came over I fell asleep on him so he went home.

Q. What time was that?

A. Oh, about 6:30.

Q. 6:30 you fell asleep?

A. Yes.

Q. Is Coy your boyfriend?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long had he been your boyfriend?

A. Oh, I don't know. He said always.

Q. He said always?

A. Yes.

Q. Now then, when did you wake up, if you did?

A. About 10:00 o'clock.

Q. It was Monday night?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you do then?

A. My home work.

Q. Your home work. How long did you do that?

A. Till about 3:00 o'clock.

Q. 3:00 o'clock in the morning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you do your home work?

A. In the front room.

Q. I am sorry. I did not hear you.

A. In the front room.

Q. Was there a table there?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did you do your home work on?

A. On the arm of the couch.

Q. Did you have a light on?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was your mother?

A. Asleep.

Q. Did you go down in the basement that night?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did Paula go down in the basement that night?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did any one, to your knowledge, go down in the basement and shovel coal?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you drop a lump of coal in the night, October 25th?

A. It was in the morning time.

Q. Did you drop a lump of coal on her?

A. Yes.

Q. What time of morning?

A. Right before I went to school.

Q. Before you went to school?

A. Yes.

Q. What time would that be?

A. I go to school at 7:00. I dropped it on her toe about fifteen till.

Q. A quarter of 7:00?

A. Yes.

Q. Was every one else up in the house?

A. Except the little kids.

Q. Were you firing the furnace?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you go down in the basement to do that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see Sylvia?

A. I don't remember seeing her.

Q. Did she sleep on the pile of rags down there under the steps?

A. I reckon.

Q. Do you know where the rags are to the right of the steps?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she over there on the pile of rags?

A. I don't remember seeing her.

Q. During the night time, did you see or hear Sylvia get up?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear your mother get up?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear anything at all?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, the next day did you go to school, on Tuesday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time did you come home?

A. Oh, almost 5:00 o'clock.

Q. Did you see Sylvia at all before you went to school?

A. No, sir.

Q. Up to that time had you seen anyone burn, beat, gouge or kick on Sylvia, other than you have testified here?

A. No, sir.

Q. When you saw Sylvia the last time - when was it before you went to school Tuesday morning?

A. Monday night.

Q. Monday night?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was Sylvia?

A. She was taking a bath.

Q. Where?

A. In the bathroom.

Q. Upstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. She was allowed to use the bathroom?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see her body?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see any marks on it?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you see?

A. That printing.

Q. Printing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was the words on her stomach?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What else did you see?

A. That was all. I don't remember seeing anything else.

Q. Did you ever talk to your mother about that printing?

A. She said it was going away.

Q. She said it was going away?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she say who put it on there?

A. Someone said Ricky did.

Q. Did she say it?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever talk to Ricky about it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was Ricky there the night of Monday, the 25th?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Were you there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did not see him?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now then, when you got home from school on Tuesday, what did you see?

A. Nothing.

Q. Where did you go?

A. Upstairs.

Q. You did not see anybody when you got home at all?

A. I seen Shirley.

Q. What did you do upstairs?

A. Put my books down.

Q. How long did you stay up there?

A. Long enough to go somewhere.

Q. About how long were you upstairs?

A. About a half hour.

Q. About a half hour?

A. Or twenty minutes.

Q. Then what happened?

A. I went down stairs.

Q. What did you do then?

A. Shirley and all the kids came in all of a sudden and said somebody was cussing somebody out.

Q. What did you do?

A. Nothing right then.

Q. What did you then do later?

A. I asked where Mom and them guys was and they said down in the basement talking to Sylvia.

Q. What did you do?

A. I went to the stairs.

Q. Did you go down in the basement?

A. I went to the first landing.

Q. What did you see?

A. She was mumbling something.

Q. Who is she?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Mumbling or something, is that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. Who else was down there?

A. Her sister and Johnny and Paula and Mom.

Q. Your mother was down in the basement with her?

A. Yes.

Q. Paula was there and John was there. What did you see?

A. She was - I don't know what she was saying, Jenny - and that was all I remember. Then I went back up stairs and somebody came over.

Q. Where was Sylvia when you went to the first landing?

A. Sitting on the floor.

Q. What was she doing besides moaning?

A. She was not moaning.

Q. What was she doing?

A. I guess you would say talking incoherently.

Q. What did she say?

A. I don't know what she said.

Q. Did you recognize any words?

A. No.

Q. How was she dressed?

A. She had a blouse and shorts on.

Q. A blouse and shorts?

A. Yes.

Q. What was your mother doing at that time?

A. Talking to her.

Q. But Sylvia was not responding?

A. She would look at her and say something and then that was it.

Q. What was Paula doing?

A. Standing there with her arms folded, looking at her.

Q. Did you see anybody do anything to Sylvia while you were looking at her?

A. No, sir.

Q. You went back upstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you stay up there?

A. Not too long.

Q. What time was that?

A. About fifteen after or twenty after or 5:30.

Q. A quarter after 5:00 or 5:30?

A. Yes.

Q. O.K. Then Sylvia - had Sylvia ever tried to go to her grandmother's?

A. She did one time.

Q. When was that?

A. In the summer time.

Q. Did she ever ask to go again?

A. No.

Q. Did you - ever try to take her to her grandmother's?

A. No.

Q. Did Sylvia ever ask to go to her grandmother's?

A. I heard somebody mention it.

Q. I am talking about to you?

A. No.

Q. Now, at 5:30 in the afternoon, Tuesday, the 26th, what did you see her do?

A. At when?

Q. 5:30 P.M. on Tuesday, the 26th of October?

A. Well, Mom said something was wrong with Sylvia.

Q. Where was your Mom?

A. Upstairs now, and she wanted me to wash her off.

Q. Did you do that?

A. Not right then. She said wait a minute, Johnny was going to wash her off a little. She said she stunk all over herself.

Q. Yes, and did anyone else come upstairs?

A. Everybody except Johnny.

Q. Paula came up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Johnny stayed down?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. I went downstairs.

Q. Right away?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you see when you went downstairs?

A. Johnny was washing her off.

Q. With what?

A. A hose.

Q. Where was Sylvia?

A. She was on the floor.

Q. Was she laying there?

A. Half laying and half sitting.

Q. How do you do that?

A. Well, you have got your legs folded and then you have your elbow down here.

Q. Did she have her head up off the cement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she have her elbow on the floor - what was her head doing?

A. Just sitting there.

Q. Were her eyes open?

A. Yes.

Q. What part of her body was John spraying with the hose?

A. The bottom.

Q. How was she dressed then?

A. She still had a blouse and shorts on.

Q. Did she make any sounds you heard then?

A. She was mumbling.

Q. Just mumbling - any other sounds?

A. No, sir.

Q. What did you say or do?

A. I told Johnny to turn off the hose, I was going to take her upstairs and give her a bath.

Q. Did he do that?

A. Yes.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. I tried to pick her up. I thought I could pick her up by myself but she was too heavy.

Q. How did you try to pick her up?

A. Like you pick up a baby.

Q. You could not get her up?

A. No, sir.

Q. She was still up off the ground, her shoulders and head?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she say anything to you?

A. No, sir.

Q. No word you could understand?

A. Not right then.

Q. Were her eyes open?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she still groaning or mumbling?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. Well, I don't know how I got her - Ricky came downstairs.

Q. Who is Ricky?

A. Ricky Hobbs.

Q. Do you see him in the courtroom?

A. Yes.

Q. Is he one of the defendants?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he do then?

A. He said, "Let me help you take her upstairs".

Q. Did he do that?

A. Yes.

Q. How did he do it?

A. Somebody took one end and somebody took the other.

Q. Who is somebody?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know? Did you pick her up?

A. As far as I remember, I did.

Q. What end did you pick up?

A. The bottom.

Q. You mean the feet?

A. Well halfway between the feet and the trunk.

Q. What end did Ricky take?

A. The front part.

Q. You mean her head and shoulders?

A. Yes.

Q. How did he hold her?

A. Under the arms.

Q. You started upstairs with her?

A. Yes.

Q. Then what happened?

A. We took her all the way upstairs. When we got to the kitchen somebody went to get a blanket. I think Johnny did. We wrapped her up and took her the rest of the way upstairs.

Q. The first time Ricky Hobbs saw Sylvia was down in the basement, was it?

A. Yes.

Q. You took her up and laid her on the kitchen floor and got a blanket?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you leave her there?

A. Long enough to put the blanket around her.

Q. Did you ask anybody to call a doctor?

A. I screamed for somebody to get a doctor.

Q. When was that?

A. The time that we took her upstairs.

Q. The time you took her to the kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. After you got a blanket, what did you do?

A. Took her upstairs.

Q. Who carried her?

A. Me and Ricky.

Q. You and Ricky Hobbs? Did you still have her feet?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he have her head and shoulders?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he drop her?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened?

A. He said something.

Q. What did he say?

A. A slang word.

Q. A slang word?

A. Yes.

Q. Did her head hit the steps?

A. Yes.

Q. Then what happened?

A. He was mad at himself.

Q. He was mad?

A. Yes.

Q. He went back down?

A. No.

Q. I am sorry, I could not hear you.

A. He got mad at himself.

Q. At himself?

A. And we took her the rest of the way upstairs.

Q. Where did you take her?

A. To the bathroom.

Q. What did you do with her?

A. I made some water.

Q. Was it warm or cold?

A. I'd say warm.

Q. Did Ricky stay up there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did he go back down?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did he ever try to give her artificial respiration?

A. That all depends.

Q. Mouth to mouth?

A. No, not mouth to mouth.

Q. How did he do it?

A. Along after she took the bath -

Q. After she took the bath? Not down in the kitchen on the floor?

A. No.

Q. He went back down and you gave her a bath?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you undress her?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you put her in the water with her clothes on or off?

A. I'd say she - her clothes were off.

Q. Off?

A. Yes.

Q. Did anybody help you?

A. I am not sure, I think Johnny did.

Q. Johnny helped you - that is your brother John?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Sylvia alive at that time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because then she started talking.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said, "I wish my dad was here".

Q. Anything else you can recall Sylvia saying?

A. She wanted to go home.

Q. She wanted to go home.

A. Yes.

Q. Did she say anything else?

A. She just told me to take her home.

Q. What did you do?

A. Well, I think Johnny helped me take her out of the bathtub and I got a towel and wiped her off and then I changed her clothes.

Q. What did you put on her?

A. A pair of pink stretch slacks and a funny looking blouse.

Q. Did anyone help you dress her?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Where was your mother?

A. She was downstairs.

Q. Did she ever come upstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. What, if anything, did she do when she came upstairs?

A. Got hysterical.

Q. What did she do?

A. Came in and everybody started saying she was faking.

Q. Who said that?

A. Mom and Ricky.

Q. Did she do anything?

A. Not right then.

Q. Did she later do anything?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she do?

A. Well, she was upset and screaming and everything and she looked at Sylvia and said she was faking. She had a book in her hand and she hit her twice.

Q. Who had a book in her hand?

A. Mom.

Q. Where did she hit Sylvia?

A. In the face.

Q. Twice?

A. Yes.

Q. What did Sylvia do?

A. She said, "Oh".

Q. What was Sylvia doing at the time she got hit?

A. Laying down.

Q. Where?

A. On the mattress.

Q. After you had redressed her, put on dry clothes?

A. Yes.

Q. Laying with her head down on the mattress?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your mother hit her with a book?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she say anything when she hit her in the head with the book?

A. She just said, "Oh".

Q. Your mother or Sylvia?

A. Sylvia.

Q. What did your mother say?

A. She said, "She's faking, she'll be alright". After that she got more hysterical and told somebody to call the doctor and everything.

Q. She told somebody to call the doctor? Where did she go or what did she do?

A. She stayed up there.

Q. Your mother stayed up there? Who else was up there at that time?

A. Ricky.

Q. Ricky was upstairs? Was he trying to keep her from coming upstairs any time?

A. Yes, in fact he also pushed her back downstairs.

Q. To go back downstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he ever try to keep her from coming upstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know?

A. I seen him.

Q. You saw him try to keep her from coming upstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Was this after you seen her hit Sylvia in the head or before?

A. Afterwards.

Q. Your mother went downstairs?

A. Mom wanted everybody to go downstairs. She came up again and said she was faking and would be alright. Somebody brought me warm tea for her.

Q. Who brought the tea?

A. I think Shirley. She asked if it was alright. I said "She will be alright". She said, "I will stay up here with her". She went back downstairs and I fed her some tea.

Q. Did she take it?

A. Yes.

Q. That was on the mattress after you bathed her?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she sit up?

A. She needed help.

Q. You held her?

A. Yes.

Q. Was anyone else up there?

A. No, sir.

Q. Your mother said she would be alright and she hit her in the head with a book?

MR. ERBECKER: We object to the repetition.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. You were alone?

A. Yes.

Q. Then what happened?

A. I put the tea down and raised her up again and I was brushing back her hair off her face. She looked kind of foggy.

Q. Were her eyes open?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Could you understand her words?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she say?

A. Just the same thing, just "Take me home, Stephanie".

Q. Then what happened?

A. Well, I started to lay her back down and I dropped her.

Q. On the mattress?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Alright, then what happened?

A. I was mad at myself and I started - and then all of a sudden she did not seem to be breathing any more and I called - somebody came upstairs - I forgot who came upstairs - and I told them to go get a doctor that she had stopped breathing. Then Ricky came in and he listened to her heart. It was still beating but she was not breathing. First he took his hands and pushed in on her stomach and it out and then he went, downstairs. He asked if I knew to give mouth to mouth resuscitation, I said, "Yes". He said, "O.K. Give it to her", and I did.

Q. Did you do that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you put your mouth to her mouth?

A. Yes.

Q. Breathe into it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Ricky Hobbs did not do that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Everybody seemed all upset and everything. Mom seemed to act like she was really sick so she started screaming and everything and I told her to stop screaming and get out.

Q. Your mother had come back up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she get out?

A. No, sir.

Q. She stayed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she do anything else to Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you continue resuscitation?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. With your mouth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What happened?

A. Well, she started breathing again and then somebody said that somebody had gone to call the police or something and I was hoping they would get there so - because I was figuring whenever the policeman came that he is supposed to try everything he could to bring them back. I was hoping they would get there so they could give her oxygen.

Q. Did they get there?

A. They got there and did not do anything.

Q. Was she dead?

A. He said she was.

Q. Did you stay with her till she died?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When they came there who was upstairs with Sylvia?

A. Just me.

Q. You were the only one?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you told the jury everything?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. NEW: Cross examine.

THE COURT: Defendant Gertrude Baniszewski may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Now, Miss Baniszewski?

A. Yes.

Q. Everything you said today is the truth, is it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. On October 23, 1965, that was on Saturday, was it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Up to that time, you had not seen any marks on Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. You were there every day, were you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You never saw your mother refuse Sylvia any food, did you?

A. One time.

Q. When?

A. It was about Friday.

Q. When?

A. Friday.

Q. October 22?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was the occasion for that?

A. Well, she wanted it and Mom was going to give it to her and she decided she was not going to give it to her.

Q. What time of day or night was that?

A. It was about supper time.

Q. You were all at the table eating supper?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Sylvia ate all meals at the table, did she?

A. Not always.

Q. Most of them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your mother helped Sylvia on several occasions when Sylvia complained, didn't she?

A. I just remember once.

Q. I thought you said you remembered twice.

A. One on her elbow and one on her knee. It was the same time.

Q. You never did see your mother abuse Sylvia did you?

A. Huh?

Q. You never did see your mother abuse Sylvia did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When?

A. At the times I told Mr. New.

Q. No time before October 23, was there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. When she was trying to make her eat.

Q. Trying to make her eat?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. About Thursday.

Q. That would be the 21st, would it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your mother tried to make Sylvia eat, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she do?

A. She hit her in the mouth.

Q. What did she make her eat? What kind of food was it?

A. I don't know. I think it was a glass of milk.

Q. She would not drink it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, what was Sylvia's condition on October 22? Was she walking around?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. On the 23rd she was walking around, was she?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In the month of September and October, your mother was ill, wasn't she?

A. Not all the time.

Q. Pardon?

A. Not all the time. There were times she was feeling pretty good.

Q. Sometimes she would be in bed a lot of times, would she?

A. Not always.

Q. Sometimes, would she?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she have asthma?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Bronchitis?

A. I don't know. I am not a doctor.

Q. Was her face ever swollen up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When?

A. About a week or so before she died.

Q. A Week before Sylvia died, your mother's face was swollen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How about the 23rd, Saturday, was your mother's face swollen that day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It was?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she complaining of pain?

A. She was scratching.

Q. You saw your mother and Johnny go to the doctor's?

A. Yes.

Q. What time was that?

A. About 9:30.

Q. You saw a cab come there?

A. No, sir.

Q. How did they go?

A. I guess in a cab, because they called one.

Q. They called one?

A. Yes.

Q. What time did your mother get back, do you know?

A. No, sir.

Q. I think you said you woke up and she was in bed with you, right?

A. I woke up - somebody came in the door and I went back to sleep and the next time I woke up she was in bed.

Q. Your mother would complain a lot about her condition, wouldn't she?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did the doctor ever come there to the house?

A. No, sir.

Q. As a matter of fact, the last two or three weeks before Sylvia died, your mother was in bed half of the time, wasn't she?

A. About a fourth of the time.

Q. A fourth of the time the last two or three weeks?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She was in bed - when she was in bed, who would be in charge of the house?

A. Paula.

Q. Paula would. Now, is it a fact, Stephanie, that a lot of things went on around that house your mother knew nothing about?

A. No, sir.

Q. That is not true?

A. No, sir.

Q. Your mother would be in bed a lot of times during the day while you were there?

A. While I was there, no.

Q. She was in bed that Saturday, wasn't she?

A. When I woke up she was.

Q. How about Sunday? Was she in bed Sunday?

A. For about two hours.

Q. How about Monday, the 25th?

A. No, sir.

Q. How about Tuesday?

A. No, when I went to school she was up.

Q. Did you ever see your mother try to run any of the neighbor kids out of the house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many times?

A. I just remember one time.

Q. One time only?

A. Yes, sir. There could have been others. I don't remember.

Q. Did you ever hear your mother tell you or your brothers or sisters to behave yourselves?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never did?

A. No, sir.

Q. Your mother did not have any discipline problems around that house, did she?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She did?

A. Yes.

Q. With who?

A. Mostly with Johnny and Paula.

Q. Johnny and Paula?

A. Yes, except I got blamed for most of the stuff that went on.

Q. When did this discipline problem begin with Johnny and Paula?

A. Oh, they seemed to argue all the time.

Q. When did it start?

A. They would disagree on things and Johnny would get mad and stomp out of the house, and he would get blamed with something and I would go talk to him and bring him back home.

Q. Now, the month of July, after you got there - what time did you get there, the 15th or 16th of July?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, the last two weeks in July, everything was alright, was it?

A. What?

Q. The last two weeks in July everything was alright there, was it?

A. Yes.

Q. Were there any disciplinary problems with any of the children?

A. Just the usual.

Q. Meaning what?

A. Just like any other home.

Q. Now, when did any trouble start around there that you did observe, with reference to your mother and Sylvia?

A. The time when Mom said she stole the gym suit.

Q. That was when?

A. About the time I was sick, the second week of school.

Q. The second week, around the 15th of September?

A. Yes.

Q. Up to that time there had been no trouble or argument between your mother and Sylvia at all, was there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. About what?

A. About money.

Q. What was the conversation and when?

A. Mom said she stole $10.00.

Q. Did she steal $10.00

A. No, sir.

Q. How do you know?

A. Because if she had, where could she have spent it.

Q. You did not see her spend any money?

A. No, sir.

Q. When was this accusation about her stealing $10.00?

A. In the summertime, about August.

Q. After September 15, when was the next time your mother and Sylvia had any trouble?

A. The next day.

Q. The next day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was that about?

A. That morning Shirley seen Sylvia's brother and somebody said something about her parents, they did not want the girls to see the boys or something, and so Mom told them if she seen Danny not to talk to him.

Q. Your mother told that to who?

A. Sylvia.

Q. To see who?

A. Danny.

Q. Who is Danny?

A. Her brother.

Q. What happened then?

A. Well, Sylvia came home from school and said she was late. I don't think she was. Anyway, she came home and Mom said she smelled like Whitecastles and so Mom asked her if she had seen Danny and she said "No". Nobody had heard that Danny had been around the house until Shirley told them that morning. Sylvia did not know nothing about it. Mom asked if she had seen Danny and she said "No". Mom kept saying she did again and that she smelled like hamburgers. She said she did not smell like hamburgers. Mom said she did.

Q. Did you have a conversation with your mother in the City-County Building while you were being held?

A. What do you mean?

Q. In January or February?

A. About what?

Q. About you being a witness for the State of Indiana?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never did?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever have a conversation with your mother about you being a witness for the State of Indiana?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When and where?

A. About - right before I did get a separate trial.

Q. Right before what?

A. I got a separate trial.

Q. And where was that conversation at?

A. In the lunchroom.

Q. Where?

A. The lunch room.

Q. Where - at that time, Stephanie, did you say this or this in substance to your mother, "I am going to go along with the prosecution in this case"?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not say that?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not say anything about going along with the prosecution?

A. I told my Mom if I thought I should, I would, but if I did not think I should, I would not.

Q. That was all that was said?

A. She kept saying that I must not love her and everything.

Q. You must not love her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you love her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Everything you have told us today is the truth, is it?

A. Yes. The only reason I am telling it, even if I hurt somebody, I hope to help them too.

Q. You hope it helps them? That is your sole motive for testifying, is to help somebody?

A. To help anybody, sir.

Q. Including yourself, of course?

A. No, sir, I don't care what happens to me.

Q. You don't care what happens to you? As a matter of fact, you were promised consideration in return for your testimony?

A. No, sir.

Q. You were not?

A. No.

Q. Did you make any kind of arrangement, any kind of deal in exchange for testifying?

A. Sir, if he had made a deal, I would have refused it.

Q. I noticed in the early part of your testimony, you said, "did you sustain it"? Did you say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you coached about what to say in the trial, with reference to any court ruling?

A. No, sir, but I do know what sustained means.

Q. You do know what sustained means? Who told you that?

A. It means you accept it.

Q. You are not testifying for revenge, are you?

A. No, sir.

Q. You are not testifying for pity of the girl that died are you?

A. No, sir.

Q. You feel sorry about it, don't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. As a matter of fact, Stephanie, this whole thing started when Sylvia came home one day and you told Sylvia in the presence of your mother that she - Sylvia - had been calling you a prostitute in school?

A. My mother was not there then.

Q. That is what started the whole thing, wasn't it?

A. No, sir.

Q. It was not?

A. No.

Q. There was not no trouble before that time, was there?

A. A little bit.

Q. What do you mean?

A. Mom kept saying, and everybody kept saying she was stealing things.

Q. Everybody was saying that, were they?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. There was no truth to any of it, was there?

A. I doubt it.

Q. You did not talk to anybody as to what your testimony would be today, did you?

A. No, sir.

Q. You just were put on the stand and asked these questions and you did not know what the questions would be prior to you coming on the stand, did you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Then how do you know it would help somebody, if you did not know what the questions would be?

A. I was just hoping anything I had to say or knew just might help them.

Q. You are not motivated by a desire to help yourself at all?

A. Like I said before, I don't care what happens to me.

Q. Now, getting back to the 23rd - that was Saturday. Have you any idea what time your mother came back with John from the doctor?

A. I said I did not know. Sometime in the afternoon, maybe 12:00, maybe after. I don't know.

Q. What time do you remember waking up Saturday night, October 23rd?

A. About 6:30 or 7:00 o'clock.

Q. How late did you stay up that night?

A. I went to bed about 10:00 o'clock again.

Q. About 10:00 o'clock?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You said on direct examination that you fell asleep at 6:30. What time did you fall asleep?

A. What?

Q. Did you tell Mr. New on direct examination you fell asleep, or was that Monday night you fell asleep?

A. Monday night.

Q. What time did you go to bed Saturday night?

A. I said about 10:00.

Q. Was Sylvia there then?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you talk to her?

A. Just a little bit.

Q. What time did you first talk to her on Saturday?

A. Right before I went to bed.

Q. You did not talk to her Saturday morning?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not talk to her Saturday afternoon?

A. No, sir, I was asleep.

Q. What time did you talk to her Saturday evening?

A. Around 9:30.

Q. 9:30 was the first time you talked to her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How did she look at that time?

A. Alright.

Q. She looked alright. How was she dressed?

A. She had some jeans on, I think.

Q. She had a shirt on?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. A blouse, did you say?

A. It was either a blouse or shirt.

Q. Did she complain of any pain?

A. No, sir.

Q. What was she doing, just sitting?

A. Walking.

Q. Where?

A. She was going upstairs.

Q. Who all was home around 9:30 when you talked to her?

A. All the kids was in bed.

Q. Was your mother up?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you stay up with Sylvia there around 9:30?

A. What?

Q. How long was she in your presence at 9:30 Saturday night?

A. Not too long.

Q. Well, how long?

A. Ten or fifteen minutes.

Q. Did she go to bed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did she sleep that night?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did she go to bed first?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you do when she went to bed?

A. I went to the bathroom.

Q. Upstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And was she upstairs at that time?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was she downstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where?

A. In the front room.

Q. You came downstairs. What did she do?

A. I did not see her. I don't remember seeing her. I went back to the couch.

Q. How late did you stay up?

A. Till about 10:00 o'clock.

Q. Then you went to bed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see Sylvia any more?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was your mother up at that time?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Did she go to bed before Sylvia left for the other room?

A. I don't know.

Q. Was there any argument between your mother and Sylvia the 23rd, that night?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Was there a friendly atmosphere there between your mother and Sylvia?

A. No, it was tense.

Q. What was said in your presence?

A. Nothing, it just seemed tense.

Q. Who seemed tense?

A. Everybody.

Q. Did Sylvia complain of pain?

A. No.

Q. Did you see anybody strike, beat, hit her Saturday night?

A. No, sir.

Q. When did you see Sylvia taking a bath?

A. Monday.

Q. Monday night? Did you see her Sunday?

A. I don't remember seeing Sylvia at all Sunday.

Q. You don't remember seeing Sylvia at all Sunday?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you home?

A. Yes.

Q. All day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was you mother home?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you next see Sylvia?

A. Monday night is all I remember.

Q. Did you see her Monday morning?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was she in the house, do you know?

A. No, sir.

Q. You don't know?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was there any conversation about her?

A. No, sir, everybody was still asleep.

Q. When?

A. When I left for school, except Shirley.

Q. Monday morning?

A. Yes.

Q. When was the last time you saw Sylvia eat a meal there at the table with everybody?

A. Thursday.

Q. Thursday. That would be the 21st, would it?

A. Except she did not eat.

Q. Is that when your mother tried to get her to eat something?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see her eat Friday?

A. She tried to.

Q. Where was she when she tried to?

A. Sitting on a chair.

Q. At the table?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You never did see your mother refuse to let her eat there at the table?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When?

A. That Friday.

Q. That Friday. Any other time?

A. I think there was one other time.

Q. When?

A. Tuesday or Monday before that.

Q. Tuesday or Monday before October 23rd?

A. Yes.

Q. That would be October 18th?

A. Around there.

Q. What was the occasion for that?

A. I don't know. All I know, she would not let her eat. I don't know why.

Q. Did you ever see your mother kick Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When?

A. About the first of October.

Q. The first of October. What was the occasion for that?

A. I don't know exactly. She said something and Mom kicked her.

Q. Now, do you think your mother performed any more acts on Sylvia than anybody else did?

MR. RICE: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. You say it was your mother's idea to call the police?

A. Not at first.

Q. Not at first?

A. No.

Q. Whose idea was it at first?

A. Mine.

Q. Yours, what time of day or night was that?

A. What day are you talking about?

Q. When you called the police?

A. You mean on Tuesday when she died?

Q. Was there a time before that?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Then I am talking about Tuesday. What time?

A. When we first took her upstairs.

Q. Was it your mother's idea to do that?

A. No - afterwards.

Q. Afterwards what?

A. Afterwards, she said O.K.

Q. You mean she refused to let anybody call the police?

A. She was not sure whether she was faking or not. She said she was faking and then she said she did not know.

Q. Was your mother nervous and excited Tuesday night?

A. She was hysterical sometimes part of the time.

Q. She was hysterical on many occasions, wasn't she?

A. Yes.

Q. And were you ever there when the doctor came out to the house?

A. No, there has never been a doctor out to the house.

Q. Did you ever go to the doctor with your mother?

A. A long time ago.

Q. Was your mother hysterical Monday, preceding the death?

A. No, sir.

Q. On Sunday?

A. No, sir.

Q. Saturday?

A. No, sir.

Q. When was the last time you saw her, your mother, hysterical, prior to Tuesday the date of the death?

A. Friday, I think.

Q. Friday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That would be October 22nd? What was the occasion for that?

A. When she would not let her eat.

Q. She refused to eat first, did she refuse to eat first?

A. No, sir.

Q. What was the occasion of your mother not allowing her to eat?

A. What do you mean?

Q. Did you say your mother would not allow her to eat?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was the occasion of that?

A. Now you have got me mixed up. I don't know what you are talking about.

Q. I don't know what you are talking about either.

A. Ask me again.

Q. October 22nd, was your mother hysterical?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see your mother refuse to give Sylvia any food?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. On Monday or Tuesday and that Thursday.

Q. What was the occasion of it?

A. There was not no reason.

Q. Did Sylvia refuse to eat at first?

A. No, that was Friday.

Q. Did Sylvia want to eat on those three occasions when your mother refused?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she say?

A. She asked, "Could I have something to eat"?

Q. What did your mother say?

A. Not unless you straighten up.

Q. What had Sylvia been doing?

A. Nothing, as far as I know.

Q. Now, this Monday night, you fell asleep at 6:30, right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You woke up at 10:00 o'clock, right?

A. No, sir.

Q. What time did you wake up?

A. I went to sleep and when I woke up it was 6:30 and I went to bed at 10:00 o'clock.

Q. Did you say you fell asleep at 6:30?

A. No, sir, I said I woke up then. I went to sleep when I got home. I woke up and I talked to Sylvia from 9:30 till fifteen to 10:00.

Q. Monday night?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was your mother?

A. As far as I remember, she was in bed, but she was not asleep yet.

Q. Is that the night you did homework on the couch?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time did you start your homework?

A. About 10:00.

Q. Did you stay up all night?

A. Just about.

Q. Did you?

A. Just about.

Q. I think you said till 3:00 o'clock in the morning, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did not hear anybody go to the basement?

A. No, sir.

Q. Nobody did go to the basement in your presence there?

A. As far as I know. Unless I was in the bathroom.

Q. You went down there Tuesday morning to fire up the furnace, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time was that?

A. Right before I went to school.

Q. What time would that be, around 7:30?

A. No, 7:00 o'clock.

Q. Sylvia - was Sylvia in the basement at that time?

A. I don't remember seeing her.

Q. Did you ever see Sylvia in the basement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When?

A. When I took her down some do-nuts.

Q. When was that?

A. About a week and a half before she died.

Q. Is that the only time you saw her in the basement?

A. That is the only time I remember. There were other times I don't exactly remember.

Q. Your mother never forced her to sleep in the basement?

A. She told her to.

Q. She never did sleep in the basement?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. How many times?

A. Off and on, I said.

Q. Pursuant to your mother's orders?

A. What do you mean?

Q. After your mother told her to do that, she would do it, right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did not see the printing on Sylvia's stomach till when?

A. Monday night.

Q. Was there any conversation about it, before that time, in your presence?

A. I asked her what happened.

Q. I mean before Monday night.

A. No, sir.

Q. There was nothing night.

A. No, sir.

Q. There was nothing Saturday night?

A. No, sir.

Q. Nothing Sunday night?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you and Sylvia go to the park together?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How often?

A. Sometimes every day.

Q. When was that, during the month of what?

A. July and August.

Q. You and she became good friends?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who started these sex conversations?

A. Sometimes Mom and sometimes Sylvia.

Q. Who started the first one?

A. Mom.

Q. What was the occasion of that, do you know?

A. She was talking about the gym suit.

Q. Talking about the gym suit?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would your mother - did you ever hear your mother scold Sylvia on account of any sex activities?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was there any basis for it, any reason for it?

A. Just what Sylvia told her.

Q. What did Sylvia tell her?

A. Just that she had gone to bed with boys before.

Q. Now, I think you testified Sylvia was getting big in the stomach. Did you say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did Sylvia ever talk to you about it?

A. She said, "I am going to have to go on a diet".

Q. Go on a diet?

A. Yes, sir. I said I would go on one with her.

Q. No one ever compelled Sylvia to sleep on the mattress, did they?

A. What do you mean?

Q. Did you testify they took turns?

A. Yes.

Q. That was not any punishment for her to sleep on a mattress?

A. No, sir, everybody did. They took turns.

Q. There were five children in the bedroom?

A. Yes.

Q. Three would sleep on -

A. Two on the mattress and three on the bed. They would take turns because they did not think it was fair that two should sleep on the mattress, so they took turns.

Q. Is it a fact your mother used to - on several occasions - give Sylvia some motherly advice about sex, did she?

A. I don't know if you would say "motherly" or not.

Q. Did you say she said she should not engage in sexual activities till after she was married?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you call that motherly advice?

A. Not the way she told it.

Q. How did she tell it?

A. I told you.

Q. As a matter of fact, everybody around the house was accusing Sylvia of doing something, were they?

A. No, sir.

Q. They were not?

A. No, sir.

Q. When did this episode at school happen, when the boy asked you if you would take money for something, when was that?

A. About the third or fourth week of school.

Q. Around the latter part of September?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that when all this happened, when you came home and told Sylvia about it?

A. When what happened?

Q. All this?

A. No, sir, it happened before.

Q. What happened before?

A. When she was talking to Sylvia.

Q. Talking about sex?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She did not strike her on account of that, did she?

A. I told you.

Q. Now, when is the first time you saw bruises on Sylvia?

A. I never seen bruises, except when she died, she had one on her hand.

Q. When was that?

A. The day she died.

Q. Now, then, before that, Monday night when she was taking a bath, you never saw cuts, bruises or marks?

A. Except for them on her leg.

Q. Except on her leg. When was that?

A. Like I told Mr. New, I can't say exactly.

Q. What kind of a mark was on her leg?

A. Like when you fall down.

Q. It did not look like any intentionally inflicted wound, did it?

A. It was deep.

Q. Now, did you testify about Sylvia using a coke bottle on herself?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was anybody making Sylvia do that?

A. Not when I walked in, they was not.

Q. At any time in your presence were they?

A. No.

Q. How long did it go on in your presence?

A. Not too long.

Q. How long?

A. I'd say fifteen seconds.

Q. Was there any conversation or command, forcing or urging Sylvia to do that?

A. Not that I can remember. I don't remember anybody saying anything, unless they said it before I walked in.

Q. Now, when did you see your mother put medicine on Sylvia's knee and elbow?

A. I told you before, not any special time, but I would say about the middle of October.

Q. Was there always money for groceries around that house?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see your mother flip Sylvia?

A. No, sir.

Q. You saw other people do it, did you?

A. Just once, but everybody was flipping everybody else then.

Q. There was not any money around that house for a doctor, was there?

A. Sometimes. Most of the times we would have to owe it.

Q. Have to owe it. Was there always money enough for food around that house?

A. No, sir.

Q. There was not?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see your mother take in ironing?

A. She used to.

Q. When?

A. About - in the summer.

Q. Did she ever take any in September?

A. I think she did once or twice.

Q. Did she ever take any in October?

A. One, I think.

Q. What was the purpose of her doing that, if you know?

A. To get some money.

Q. What did she do with the money when she got it?

A. Bought groceries.

Q. Was your father - did he ever come to the house?

A. Whenever we needed something.

Q. I beg your pardon?

A. Whenever we needed something. He would never know there was no money for groceries.

Q. Therefore he would not be there, would he?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever see any of the children have any disciplinary problems.

A. What?

Q. Did you ever see any of the children have trouble when they were with your father?

A. Just what they made of their own - normal - like I have always been told, you only make trouble for yourself.

Q. Now, what time did you get home Tuesday, the day of the death?

A. About 5:00 o'clock, 5:15, something like that.

Q. Now, Monday night preceding the night you saw Sylvia taking a bath.

A. Yes.

Q. She was doing it herself, was she?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. No one was forcing her or anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never did see anybody force Sylvia to take a hot steaming bath, did you?

A. I was never there.

Q. Therefore you did not see it?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see anybody giving her a hot, steaming bath on Monday or Tuesday night, immediately prior to her death?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never did see your mother use that strap on Sylvia, did you?

A. No.

Q. You never saw her use the paddle either, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You never seen your mother push her down the stairs, have you?

A. Not that I can remember.

Q. When you got home Tuesday, you went upstairs for a half hour, is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What were you doing upstairs?

A. Going to the bathroom.

Q. Was Shirley home?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was Sylvia home?

A. I don't know. She probably was, because when I went downstairs she was there.

Q. What time did you first see Sylvia Tuesday?

A. About 5:30 or a quarter of 6:00.

Q. Where was she, downstairs?

A. Down in the basement with Mom, Paula, Johnny and her sister.

Q. What were they doing?

A. Mom was talking to her.

Q. Talking to Sylvia?

A. Yes.

Q. On Tuesday was Jenny home?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You saw her?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have conversation with her?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the conversation?

A. Mom said she could rake leaves.

Q. That was Tuesday?

A. Yes.

Q. What time?

A. This was in between the time I came up from the first landing till before I went back down.

Q. Around 5:30 or 6:00?

A. No, maybe 6:00 or fifteen till 6:00.

Q. What did you hear Sylvia say down in the basement, if anything?

A. I did not hear anything.

Q. How long was she down there in your presence when you went down there?

A. As long as I was down there.

Q. When you went upstairs, did you see her upstairs?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was she still downstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long?

A. Till I brought her upstairs.

Q. How long was that before you brought her upstairs?

A. About 6:15.

Q. About a half hour, you think?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was she doing downstairs? Do you know what she was doing downstairs, Stephanie?

A. Who?

Q. Sylvia?

A. She was sitting there.

Q. Just sitting there doing nothing?

A. Yes, mumbling.

Q. To whom?

A. Mom and them - what time are you going back to?

Q. I am going back to Tuesday.

A. What time Tuesday?

Q. What time did you hear her mumbling?

A. The time I went down there first.

Q. What time was that?

A. About 5:30 to 6:00 o'clock, somewhere in between there.

Q. And you never, any time Tuesday, did anything to the girl, did you?

A. From what time to what time?

Q. You never struck her at all Tuesday?

A. No, sir.

Q. You never did anything to her except try to help her?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was the last time you struck her?

A. As far as I can remember, it was about the third week in September.

Q. What time did the police come that night, Tuesday night?

A. It was about 7:00.

Q. Then from 6:15 to 7:00 what did you do?

A. From 6:15 to about 6:30 we took her upstairs. Then from then on I gave her a bath and did everything else.

Q. Whose idea was it to give her a bath?

A. Mom's.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said she stunk.

Q. Was that in the basement?

A. No, she came upstairs.

Q. Who came up stairs?

A. Mom.

Q. Sylvia was downstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your mother told you, in substance, Sylvia did not smell good, to give her a bath?

A. About that way.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. Mom told Johnny to wash Sylvia off.

Q. Was Johnny downstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your mother was upstairs?

A. At that time.

Q. What did she do, yell downstairs to Johnny?

A. Yes, Randy Lepper brought his hose over.

Q. Randy Lepper brought the hose over?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Whose idea was that?

A. I don't know.

Q. Now, when your mother said to give her a bath, did she say anything specifically about the hose?

A. She just told me Johnny was washing her off.

Q. Who told Johnny to wash her off?

A. I guess Mom did.

Q. You did not hear it?

A. No.

Q. As a matter of fact, she told you to get her upstairs and give her a bath?

A. Not exactly those words.

Q. As a matter of fact, she is the one who told you to call the police?

A. No, sir.

Q. You are sure about that?

A. She never told me.

Q. Did she tell the Hobbs boy to call the police?

A. At first?

Q. She was the one who said to call the police first?

A. At first?

Q. Your mother was?

A. At first, yes.

Q. When was at first?

A. When we first came upstairs, she got hysterical.

Q. Your mother came upstairs and said call the police?

A. Yes.

Q. Your mother got hysterical?

A. Yes, then she said she was faking.

Q. After she got hysterical, she said she was faking?

A. At first when she got hysterical, she said to call the police. All of a sudden she calmed down and said, "Never mind".

Q. Did she get hysterical again that night?

A. When the police came.

Q. Before that time?

A. Five minutes before.

Q. Did she get hysterical while you were giving the girl a bath?

A. No, she was not up there.

Q. Did you say she came up there?

A. After I gave her a bath.

Q. Was she ever there while you were giving the bath?

A. No, sir.

Q. As a matter of fact, she broke away from your friend and came upstairs any way, didn't she?

A. She was on the step, the top step.

Q. Did she come upstairs?

A. She was on the top step. She was screaming and everything.

Q. Was she out of her head?

A. I don't know what you call out of your head.

Q. You said she was hysterical?

A. Hysterical means calm.

Q. Hysterical means calm.

A. Yes.

Q. Your attorney's name is John Hammond?

A. Yes.

Q. He advised you as to your rights, did he?

A. Yes, sir. I already know them.

Q. You already know them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How do you know them?

A. Because I wanted to be a lawyer.

Q. When did you get that idea?

A. When I was about the third or fourth grade.

Q. Is that how you knew what the word sustained meant, when you used that to Judge Rabb?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you familiar with courtroom procedure?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You know what it means to turn State's evidence, do you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What does it mean?

A. It means you go on the other side.

Q. You go on the other side?

A. Yes.

Q. That is what you are doing?

A. In a sense, yes. I am telling the truth.

Q. Everything you said today is the truth?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are motivated by a desire to help everybody but yourself, is that right?

A. Yes, sir, believe that or not.

Q. Pardon?

A. Believe it or not. Everybody keeps talking about how I am helping myself.

Q. I did not hear you. What was it?

A. Everybody thinks - they probably think I came in here because I wanted to hang everybody on something. But I did not.

Q. You want to save your own neck though, don't you?

A. No, sir.

MR. ERBECKER: Nothing more.

THE COURT: Defendant Paula Baniszewski may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. GEORGE RICE, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
PAULA MARIE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Miss Baniszewski, when will you reach your sixteenth birthday?

A. August.

Q. August this year?

A. Yes.

Q. Where are you presently living?

A. I am living at the Juvenile Center.

Q. Do you have an opportunity out there to continue studies started in the past?

A. Yes.

Q. What sort of things do you study?

A. History, and I used to be taking Geometry and Health and Biology and English and gym.

Q. A pretty heavy schedule. Do you also have an opportunity for religious observance on Sunday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you take advantage of these opportunities?

A. Yes, sir, I do.

Q. I notice you wear glasses. Can you tell us the reason why you do?

A. I am nearsighted.

Q. Do you wear them all the time?

A. Yes.

Q. All the time?

A. Yes, sir, these are not the same glasses I have. These are new ones.

Q. Have you ever been subjected to fainting or blacking out?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Very often?

A. Well, from what I have heard, I am.

Q. When?

A. Well, I remember one time - I don't know exactly what happened - I went out and woke up on the kitchen floor.

Q. Can you recall when was the last time you blacked out in this fashion?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know how long you remained unconscious?

A. No, sir.

Q. Are you at all aware what the cause may be?

A. No, sir.

Q. Have you ever had medical assistance or examination to determine the cause?

A. Yes, sir, yesterday.

Q. Was any finding made?

A. Just that I was very nervous and had kind of high blood pressure.

Q. When you recover from the fainting spells, are you able to remember any - with any degree of clearness what happened in the time before?

A. No, sir.

Q. Would you describe your present attitude toward your sister Paula as one of sisterly affection?

A. In three words I can.

Q. In three words you can?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, I will ask you to think back over the events about the 15th day of September, 1965, and I will ask you whether or not either that afternoon or that evening you can recall seeing your sister Paula in the company of Sylvia Likens and whether or not on that occasion your sister Paula led Sylvia Likens to the back door of the house at 3850 East New York and told her to go away and stay away - do you recall?

A. She said - I was told that it was done.

Q. You yourself did not see it?

A. No, sir.

MR. RICE: No further questions.

THE COURT: Defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard may examine.

MR. BOWMAN: No questions.

THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs may examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. JAMES NEDEFF, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
RICHARD HOBBS

Q. Stephanie, have you ever visited in Ricky Hobbs's home?

A. No, sir.

Q. Are you acquainted with his brothers and sisters?

A. Just his little brother.

Q. Have you ever been in their home?

A. No, sir.

Q. You have seen his little brother playing in the back yard?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever talk to him?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you acquainted to the point you knew his name?

A. What?

Q. Did you know him well enough you knew his first name?

A. Yes.

Q. What was his name?

A. Richard.

Q. I mean his younger brother?

A. No, I forgot his name.

Q. Now, you say on October 26, that was Tuesday, Ricky came over and he asked to help carry Sylvia upstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Sylvia was in what room of the house then?

A. She was in the basement.

Q. Alright, did she eventually get to the kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. Who carried her up?

A. To the kitchen?

Q. Yes.

A. Me and Ricky.

Q. Alright, who helped carry her from the kitchen to the upstairs?

A. Me and Ricky.

Q. Now, down in the basement, is it a fact that you poured Trend detergent soap on Sylvia as she laid in the basement?

A. No, sir.

Q. You did not do that?

A. No.

Q. You poured hot water on her?

A. No.

Q. Jenny Likens, when she was here a week or so ago and testified that you poured detergent soap and hot water on her.

MR. NEW: We object. That is not the testimony. The record speaks for itself.

THE COURT: Objection sustained to the form of the question.

Q. Were you down in the basement when that was done?

A. No, sir, I did not know any soap was put on her.

Q. You were down in the basement and you went for a hose across the street?

A. No, I said Randy brought the hose over.

Q. He did? Who asked him to?

A. I don't know. All I know, he brought it over.

Q. Is it a fact you asked him to?

A. I don't remember.

Q. He eventually brought a hose over?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When you and Ricky were carrying her upstairs to the bathroom, is it a fact Sylvia had wet soap on her?

A. I did not see no soap. I don't remember any soap. I remember she was wet. I don't remember soap.

Q. How many turns does the stairway make from the dining room up to the upstairs?

A. About eight.

Q. Is the stairway from the dining room to the upstairs, the second floor - is it a straight stairway?

A. No.

Q. How many turns does it make?

A. Two.

Q. Now, you were helping Ricky take Sylvia upstairs and she was wet and had soap on her?

A. I don't remember no soap.

Q. Did you tell Ricky you were going to have a fainting spell and black out?

A. I told him I did not feel good.

Q. As a matter of fact, it is you who slipped and let her drop?

A. No.

Q. As a matter of fact, is that why you used a slang word?

A. No.

Q. Who was he rebuking then?

A. Himself.

Q. Did you have a fainting spell on the stairway?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, is it a fact, he was keeping your mother downstairs because your mother had hit Sylvia upstairs with a book?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In fact, he was the only one that stopped your mother, is that correct?

A. I was too busy to see.

Q. Is he the one who took her downstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Why did he take her downstairs?

A. Because she hit her.

Q. In fact, he was the only one who stopped her, said a word?

A. He was the only one that could.

Q. Why, your brother Johnny was there?

A. You don't know a thirteen year old boy, sir.

Q. Your brother Johnny was there?

A. No, sir.

Q. You were there?

A. Yes.

Q. Why did you not tell your mother to stop? Is it a fact, you felt sorry for having a fainting spell and your mother was wanting to come upstairs and was hollering, "She is faking"?

A. I had not fainted.

Q. But you complained to Ricky you were going to faint?

A. I said I did not feel good.

Q. Everyone knew you had blackouts, didn't they?

A. Yes.

Q. Ricky knew it, didn't he?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did he say somebody had to keep a cool head?

A. Huh?

Q. Did he say that?

A. What?

Q. Was he complaining about you not feeling good, feeling faint?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was your mother trying to come up the stairway?

A. No, he was trying to keep Mom downstairs.

Q. For what reason?

A. Because she hit her.

Q. Your mother would have hit her more if it had not been for Ricky?

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. She started to, didn't she?

A. No.

Q. Did she want to come back upstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. She was hollering, "She is faking. I am going to show her"?

A. No.

MR. ERBECKER: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. What was your answer?

A. No. She told Ricky to let her go though.

Q. He did not, did he?

A. No.

Q. In fact, he wanted to go call the police sooner, is that a fact?

A. I don't know.

Q. Is it a fact, he only went to call the police when you hollered downstairs, "She's dead". Your brother Johnny came downstairs and said she stopped breathing, is that right?

A. No, Ricky came upstairs and I told him he had better call a doctor or somebody.

Q. He came upstairs?

A. Yes, sir, he asked me how she was.

Q. He did eventually go across the street and call the police?

A. As far as I know.

Q. You stayed upstairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The next person who came upstairs was Ricky and the policeman, is that true?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Of everybody in that house in Sylvia's last minutes, last hours, that put a hand to your mother to stop her from inflicting any more injuries was Ricky Hobbs the only one, is that true?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. NEDEFF: No further questions.

CROSS EXAMINATION (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. GEORGE RICE, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
PAULA MARIE BANISZEWSKI

Q. Miss Baniszewski, I asked you somewhat earlier whether or not your attitude toward your sister Paula was one of sisterly affection. Your answer was, "I can say it in three words"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Say those words.

A. I love her.

MR. RICE: Thank you. No further questions.

THE COURT: Any redirect, Prosecutor?

MR. NEW: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Any other questions?

CROSS EXAMINATION (OMITTED QUESTIONS),
BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. What is your attitude toward your mother at the present time?

A. She does not believe it.

Q. What is your attitude toward your mother at the present time?

A. I love her but she does not believe it.

MR. ERBECKER: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Any questions on behalf of anybody? You may go.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

THE COURT: Next witness, State.

MR. NEW: At this time the State will rest, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Any sur-rebuttal?

MR. ERBECKER: May I have five minutes to confer with her, I don't know.

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury and Alternate Jurors, by agreement of counsel and with the consent of the State and defendant made in open court, the jury is permitted to separate. You will return to the jury room tomorrow morning at 9:00 A.M. During the adjournment, don't talk among yourselves and don't let anyone talk to you about this case or any subject connected therewith. Don't form or express any opinion on the case till it is submitted to you. Don't read any newspaper articles or any articles appearing in any other periodical about this case. Don't watch anything or listen to anything that may be broadcast about the case. Jury and Alternate Jurors are excused till 9:00 o'clock tomorrow morning.

JURY EXCUSED.

COURT ADJOURNED.

MAY 17, 1966, AND THE TRIAL OF THIS CAUSE WAS RESUMED.

THE COURT: Everybody is here. The State has rested. Any rebuttal on the part of the defendants. Defendant Gertrude Baniszewski?

MR. ERBECKER: Your Honor, the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski would like to make a motion. Gertrude Baniszewski, the defendant herein, respectfully moves the court for sufficient time to have her examined by a competent psychiatrist or psychologist, especially in view of the fact her witness was impeached yesterday, which came as a shock and surprise to her and counsel for defendant Gertrude Baniszewski has made arrangements this morning for another examination of her this afternoon and it is extremely essential and necessary and important in view of what transpired in the impeachment of that very material witness, that this motion be granted for the purpose aforesaid.

THE COURT: Does the State of Indiana have any comment?

MR. NEW: Your Honor, I can see this would be endless. The fact we impeached one of his witnesses does not give rise to an occurrence of an examination. After all, I think what we had here, two court appointed - I think E. Roger Smith is three, Relkin's is four. I feel the statute has been complied with, and then some.

THE COURT: I don't know if that was impeachment. I think it goes to the credibility perhaps, but not impeachment.

MR. ERBECKER: If that is not impeachment, I have never saw it.

THE COURT: Let's think it out. Mental illness is the same as measles or mumps or anything else. It is a disease, a sickness. People get well from it. The psychologist was at the request of the defendant and no one else. Do you have any other rebuttal evidence, Mr. Erbecker?

MR. ERBECKER: In view of the offense and the nature of the offense, I would like to put her on the stand in the absence of the jury to determine whether or not she wants to take the stand.

THE COURT: You can talk to her. You don't have to have a hearing in the absence of the jury. That is a matter between client and lawyer, counsel. That is not a matter of taking the stand on something like that.

MR. ERBECKER: In view of the fact there was some testimony in here, I don't know if she can make up her mind or not.

THE COURT: Take her in that room and talk to her. See if she can make up her mind. We will pass by a second. Does Paula Marie Baniszewski have any rebuttal testimony?

MR. RICE: We have none.

THE COURT: Do defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard have any rebuttal testimony?

MR. BOWMAN: None, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs?

MR. NEDEFF: Has no evidence, witnesses or rebuttal evidence.

THE COURT: Are you ready for the jury?

MR. NEW: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

MR. ERBECKER: Did the court ever rule on my motion for examination?

THE COURT: I will listen to what she has to say first. I might as well rule on your motion now, Mr. Erbecker. The jury is not here. A psychologist coming to court now would be in the case in chief, not in rebuttal. There is nothing here - I think the only rebuttal you could have is on the question as to the testimony of Relkin. I saw no rebuttal to his testimony on the part of the state, excepting perhaps credibility, so your motion for delay of trial for the purpose of getting another psychologist is overruled.

MR. ERBECKER: How about after the court appointed psychiatrists, may I make a motion?

THE COURT: I can't stop you from making a motion. You have, at your request, one physician whose name is Roger Smith, who will be availableto you if he is well and healthy, so right now, as a rebuttal witness, your motion for delay for the purpose of obtaining a psychological examination is overruled, as a matter of rebuttal.

MR. ERBECKER: Now, Your Honor, the defendant Gertrude Baniszewski respectfully moves the court for adequate time and facilities for rebuttal of psychological rebuttal after the court appointed doctors testify.

THE COURT: Let's see what they testify to. You can make your motion then.

MR. ERBECKER: In the interest of time. It will take several hours to set it up, you know, so you can't say we come in the last minute.

THE COURT: This motion could have been made yesterday, too, you know.

MR. ERBECKER: He did not testify till yesterday.

THE COURT: We were here till way after 5:00 o'clock. It could have been made yesterday. Let's not forestall any defendant's right to a fair and full trial. Let's still think about it at the proper time. Right now, as rebuttal evidence, I can't see any. If you want to rebut the physicians, that may be another story.

THE COURT: Are you ready for the jury now?

MR. NEDEFF: Defendant Richard Hobbs is.

THE COURT: Defendant Gertrude Baniszewski ready for the jury?

MR. ERBECKER: Yes, sir, Your Honor.

MR. NEW: The State is ready.

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.
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