Gertrude Baniszewski - Defendant - Sur-Rebuttal

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Gertrude Baniszewski - Defendant - Sur-Rebuttal

Postby admin » October 31st, 2010, 5:18 pm

JURY PRESENT AND SEATED.

THE COURT: Defendant Gertrude may present her rebuttal evidence.

DEFENDANT GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI PRESENTS SUR-REBUTTAL EVIDENCE AS FOLLOWS.

GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI , called on behalf of defendant Gertrude Baniszewski on sur-rebuttal,
being duly sworn by the court, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLIAM ERBECKER, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
GERTRUDE BANISZEWSKI

Q. State your name.

A. Gertrude Baniszewski.

Q. You are one of the defendants in this case, are you, Gertrude?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, you had a call put in to my home or office last night, did you?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Do you want to testify this morning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is it your wish?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you know it is against my advice, you know that?

A. Yes.

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. The answer will go out. The jury will ignore the question in arriving at a verdict in this case.

Q. Now, you are here in sur-rebuttal, in other words, your testimony is restricted to what the state offered in rebuttal. I tried to explain that to you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, with reference to the testimony of the State's witnesses yesterday, limiting it to state's witnesses, what transpired on October 23, 1965?

MR. NEW: We object. That is not rebuttal. You have to be specific.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. You heard your daughter testify, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is her name?

A. Stephanie Kay Baniszewski.

Q. You heard her testify with reference to October 23, 1965?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, will you relate now what transpired on October 23, 1965, with reference to the time you got up that Saturday morning?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. Was your daughter telling the truth yesterday?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained. It is a question of fact for the jury.

Q. Your daughter testified she was asleep on Sunday, October 24, 1965. Did you hear that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true?

A. Not to my knowledge, it is not true.

Q. What transpired in that house there on Sunday, October 24th?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled. He has not finished his question.

MR. NEW: I am sorry. I thought he had finished.

MR. ERBECKER: That is my question, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. Your daughter testified that you went to the doctor with Johnny. Is that true?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time did you go to the doctor?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. What time did you get home from the doctor?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled as to that question.

A. I am not sure, Mr. Erbecker, what time I got home.

Q. How long were you at the doctor's office?

A. Several hours, a couple of hours - maybe not that long.

Q. A couple of hours?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you remember what time you got home - have you any idea what time you got home?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was it after noon?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It is not rebuttal.

Q. Now, your daughter Stephanie testified she got home on Monday at 5:00 o'clock. Is that true?

A. No, sir.

Q. What time did she get home?

A. After Paula did.

Q. What time was that?

A. Paula got home at 3:30 or a quarter of 4:00.

Q. What happened then?

A. You mean on Monday evening?

Q. Yes, Monday, October 25.

A. I don't know because Paula just went a head and let me sleep. She did not get me up right away.

Q. Were you sleeping on Monday, the 25th?

A. Yes, I was, sir.

Q. What time were you sleeping?

A. To my knowledge, about all day.

Q. All day Monday. Stephanie testified Monday night, the 25th, you were in - I believe she said the middle room when she fell asleep around 6:30 P.M., is that true?

A. On Monday?

Q. Yes.

A. I would not know whether she really was or not. I don't remember being up at that time.

Q. Now, Stephanie testified that you said that the printing was going away on that girl's stomach. Did you say that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you say anything about it?

A. I don't recall saying anything about it, no, sir.

Q. Do you recall Stephanie's testimony about Tuesday night, October 26 - do you remember when she said up there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Stephanie said that you told her to wash Sylvia. Is that right?

A. I don't remember telling her anything like that, no, sir.

Q. Were you in the basement Tuesday night?

A. No, sir.

Q. Were you in the basement Tuesday afternoon?

A. No, sir.

Q. Who all was there, if you know?

A. Tuesday afternoon?

Q. Yes.

A. Johnny and Shirley were and Paula came home, she said about twenty minutes after 3:00.

Q. Who else was there?

A. Then she said that the other kids came home and Stephanie.

Q. What time was that?

A. Stephanie usually got home around 4:00 o'clock, or a little after.

Q. Now, you heard your daughter testify you got hysterical. You heard that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you get hysterical?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, did you strike Sylvia with a book that night?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hit her in the face twice?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you order everybody downstairs that night?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you go upstairs that night?

A. I may have after the police came. I don't really remember, Mr. Erbecker.

Q. What was your condition at that time?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. What was your physical condition?

A. Pretty bad.

Q. What do you mean "Pretty bad"?

A. Well, I could not hardly stand up on my own, very well.

Q. Now, did you hear your daughter say on October 22, "Mom refused to give her food", do you remember her saying that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true?

A. No, not to my knowledge, I never refused her food.

Q. Now, your daughter testified the week before the death of Sylvia that your face was swollen. Did you hear her say that?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that true?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She said that about a fourth of the time you were in bed. Was it that much or more?

A. It was more than that, Mr, Erbecker.

Q. How much more?

A. Quite a bit more. I was not even capable of taking care of the children any more.

Q. Who would look after them?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. She said on direct examination who was taking care of them.

Q. Did you hear your daughter say that you said that she was faking? Did you hear her say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you say that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Just what did you do when that girl was upstairs there, from the time she was taken upstairs till the time of her death, if you know?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. It was gone into on the case in chief.

Q. Your daughter - did you hear your daughter testify that, "Mother wanted to come back upstairs" - did you hear her say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true?

A. I vaguely recall asking if the girl was alright and they kept telling me she was.

Q. Who is they?

A. Ricky and Stephanie.

Q. Did you ever, any time on Tuesday night, strike that Likens girl with anything?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear your daughter testify yesterday, "Mom said something is wrong with Sylvia", did you say that?

A. Yes, sir, I think I did.

Q. What did you say?

A. I don't recall saying anything to Stephanie.

Q. Do you recall having talked to Sylvia that night, Tuesday night?

A. No.

Q. Did you hear your daughter testify that you attempted to give Sylvia milk and she refused it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true?

A. I think I did once and she did not want it.

Q. Now, did you hear your daughter testify that she took Sylvia upstairs and there was no marks on her? Did you hear her testify to that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see any marks on her?

A. I was not that near to the girl.

Q. Now, your daughter testified that "I did not cut, burn or hit Sylvia". You heard her testify that?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that true?

A. That she did not? Not in my presence she did not, no, sir.

Q. Now, did you hear your daughter testify yesterday "everybody flipped Sylvia except mother in the front room there" or words to that effect. Did you hear her?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you flip her?

A. I could not have probably lifted her.

Q. Could you lift your own minor son?

A. No, sir.

Q. You heard your daughter testify about somebody tying Sylvia in the basement, you heard that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever tie her anyplace?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever tell anybody to tie her anyplace?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear your daughter testify that "Mother put medicine or medication on her knee and also on her elbow" or words to that effect, did you hear that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you help Sylvia?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. On how many occasions?

A. I only remember one really, but I may have done it at another time. I don't remember it real well.

Q. Did you hear your daughter testify yesterday that sometime the middle of October she come in the house and Sylvia was putting a pepsi-cola bottle between her legs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true?

A. I don't remember anything like that, no, sir.

Q. Now, did you hear your daughter testify on October 5 the parents of Sylvia came over and brought Sylvia some things?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true?

A. Yes, they brought them some things.

Q. Did you hear your daughter testify Sylvia ate breakfast when she had time, did you hear her say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true?

A. I would not know. They were usually up and gone before the rest of us got up.

Q. Did you ever deny Sylvia food?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear your daughter testify there was not enough money for a doctor or food sometimes?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true?

A. On one or two occasions. It never lasted more than a day or two that we did not have any great big meals.

Q. Did you hear your daughter testify that some boy at school asked how much money she would take for something?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you hear that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did she tell you about it?

A. Stephanie did, yes, sir.

Q. Now, did you hear your daughter testify "Mom burned Sylvia's fingers with a match because she stole something"? Did you hear that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear your daughter testify yesterday that she saw you kick Sylvia, did you hear that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you do that?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear your daughter testify yesterday that there was conversation about babies and you said "don't do anything till you are married" talking to Sylvia?

A. If there was conversation like that, it was with my own girls, not with somebody else's girls.

Q. Did you hear your daughter testify you and Sylvia argued about a gym suit Sylvia had and Sylvia finally gave up and said she had stole it?

A. There was not no argument over it, no,

Q. Is that true?

A. That she stole the gym suit? She said she did. I don't know if it is true or not.

Q. Did you hear your daughter ask Judge Rabb the definition of the - and the explanation of the word sustained, did you hear that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you have conversation with your daughter sometime in January or February in this City-County Building here?

A. You mean my daughter Stephanie?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was the conversation?

A. She was pretty scared.

Q. What was the conversation?

A. She said something about she thought she would turn State's witness or something.

Q. What else did she say?

A. Well, she was pretty upset, being in jail and being confined and she said she thought she would turn State's witness.

Q. Is that all she said?

A. Uhuh.

Q. Now, did you hear your daughter testify that Sylvia and the kids took turns on the mattress and bed, sleeping?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then Sylvia sleeping on the mattress was not any disciplinary action on your part?

A. No, sir, because my own children slept on it too.

Q. Did you hear your daughter yesterday testify you said to Sylvia "You are getting a big stomach, you are going to have a baby", did you hear your daughter say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you say that?

A. I did not say nothing like that to Sylvia. I believe Stephanie said it to Sylvia.

Q. Did you hear your daughter testify about a conversation between you and her and Sylvia concerning a California episode, do you remember that testimony yesterday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did that conversation happen?

A. She was relating it to my daughters.

Q. Who was?

A. Sylvia.

Q. Did you hear your daughter testify yesterday that in August you accused Sylvia of taking $10.00 and of stealing out of drugstores, did you hear that, yesterday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you actually accuse Sylvia of taking anything?

A. I asked the two girls one time if they did. At the same time, I was asking my own children too. There was more than two children in that home.

Q. You did not restrict your interrogation just to Sylvia, did you?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, did you hear Darlene MacGuire testify yesterday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was she telling the truth?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

Q. When was the last time Darlene MacGuire was in your house?

A. I don't remember the exact date, but it was along after school started.

Q. After school started?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you hear Darlene MacGuire testify yesterday the last time she was in your house was the second week in September? Did you hear her say that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was she there after that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you see her do after that?

A. The last time Darlene was in my house, she had a habit kind of tormenting little Denny all the time, taking his bottle away, to hear him fuss and cry. She was rather argumentative with the smaller children, plus she smoked and did not use very good language sometimes in front of the little ones. I was having enough trouble with mine anyway, just trying to discipline them and so she got kind of smart with me - I mean she talked back to me and I told her I thought maybe she had better not come over there.

Q. Did you ever order those neighbor kids to stay out of your house?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. When was the last time?

A. I don't remember the exact date but I know up till at least the last week Paula was even trying to chase them out before we were arrested.

Q. When was the second to the last time you ordered the neighbor kids out?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. When was the first time you ordered the neighbor kids out?

MR. NEW: We object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. You heard Mr. Robert Hoover testify yesterday, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever any time prompt, tell, order, induce or compel anybody to do anything to that girl?

A. No, sir.

Q. You heard Anna Siscoe testify yesterday, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you hear her testify that you struck that girl last August?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you?

A. No, I don't remember striking Sylvia last August.

Q. Did you hear Anna Siscoe testify she struck the girl last August or the first of September? Did you hear that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever see her do anything other than that to that girl?

A. I seen her beat her up pretty badly one time.

Q. When was that?

A. I did not see all of it but I saw part of it. This was after school started.

Q. Anna Siscoe, did you hear her testify that the second week in September was the last time she saw Sylvia? Did you hear her say that?

MR. NEW: We object. That was not her testimony. She said she saw her in the alley.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

MR. ERBECKER: I will appeal to the record.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Next question, please.

Q. Did you ever tell Anna Siscoe Sylvia was pregnant?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever hear anybody say that Sylvia was eating out of garbage cans, other than the testimony in this courtroom?

A. My little kids - I heard them say it one time.

Q. When was that?

A. The early part of the summer.

Q. Did you hear Anna Siscoe testify that Judy and Darlene were there one time when she was there?

A. Could you repeat that?

A. Did you hear Anna Siscoe say Judy Duke and Darlene MacGuire were there at a time she was there once?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that true that they were there once?

A. They possibly were there several times with the girls.

Q. Did you ever at any time permit, force, or order that dead girl to drink any urine?

A. No, sir.

Q. Or to eat any defecation, human waste?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever have any conversation with Stephanie about her getting a separate trial?

A. No, sir, not - you know - having a separate trial.

Q. I did not hear that.

A. Not anything about her having a separate trial, no, sir.

Q. Now, did you hear any testimony about judo and karate being practiced at your house? Did you hear that yesterday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was that practiced there?

A. In the early part of the summer the girls, Paula and Stephanie and Coy and the kids fooled around like that with boards once in a while, yes, sir.

Q. How long did that continue?

A. Not very long, it was once or twice, I think.

Q. Did you ever abuse that Sylvia Likens any time?

A. I remember spanking her or trying to one time, yes, sir.

MR. ERBECKER: Nothing further.

THE COURT: The State may cross examine

MR. NEW: No Questions.

THE COURT: Paula Marie Baniszewski may cross examine.

MR. RICE: No questions.

THE COURT: Defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. FORREST BOWMAN, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANTS,
COY HUBBARD AND JOHN STEPHAN BANISZEWSKI

Q. Mrs. Baniszewski, I believe you told Mr. Erbecker that you never prompted, induced or compelled anyone to do anything to Sylvia. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was true, was it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You did it yourself, did you?

A. No, sir, I was not able to do much myself - period.

MR. BOWMAN: No further questions.

THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION,
QUESTIONS BY MR. JAMES NEDEFF, ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT,
RICHARD HOBBS

Q. You testified you thought Stephanie was a scared, nervous girl, is that your testimony?

A. I don't know whether that was my exact words or not.

Q. In substance was that your words?

A. Yes, I imagine she was.

Q. She had been here in court before, had she?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. She was here March 16, wasn't she?

A. Yes.

Q. She was doodling and drawing pictures. You were sitting next to her when she drew that judge?

A. I don't remember her drawing that.

Q. You have seen her doodling and drawing pictures?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember her doing that?

A. I did not see that drawn.

Q. You have seen her doodling or drawing pictures here court?

A. I could not tell whether she was drawing pictures or writing.

MR. NEDEFF: Nothing else.

THE COURT: Any other questions, Mr. Erbecker?

MR. ERBECKER: No.

WITNESS EXCUSED.

THE COURT: Any other rebuttal, Mr. Erbecker, on behalf of defendant Gertrude Baniszewski, at this time?

MR. ERBECKER: I renew my motion heretofore made, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Same ruling. Paula Marie Baniszewski, and rebuttal?

MR. RICE: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard, any rebuttal?

MR. BOWMAN: No rebuttal.

THE COURT: Defendant Richard Hobbs, any rebuttal?

MR. NEDEFF: None at all, Your Honor.

THE COURT: State?

MR. NEW: No.

THE COURT: All sides rest?

MR. NEW: The State rests.

THE COURT: Defendant Gertrude Baniszewski?

MR. ERBECKER: Subject to our motion.

THE COURT: Subject to one motion I have overruled this morning. Paula Marie Baniszewski?

MR. RICE: She rests.

THE COURT: Defendants John Stephan Baniszewski and Coy Hubbard rest?

MR. BOWMAN: They rest.

THE COURT: Does defendant Richard Hobbs rest?

MR. NEDEFF: He rests.

THE COURT: Alright.

THE STATE AND ALL DEFENDANTS REST.
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