John Baniszewski

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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby indianagirl2242 » April 26th, 2012, 9:37 pm

Thanks... I did find Jr's original Obit :)

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby charlie4455 » April 26th, 2012, 9:39 pm

indianagirl2242 wrote:Thanks... I did find Jr's original Obit :)

that was quick

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby charlie4455 » April 26th, 2012, 9:41 pm

indianagirl2242 wrote:
charlie4455 wrote:
John Jr obit that is on findagrave is edited there is a full one. Which has names of his family in it.

John Sr and Mary Blake retired in Mt. Vernon, In around 2002. He died in a nursing home in Greenwood, In and is buried there. There is an obit for John Sr. It was not published in Greenwood or Indianapolis. It was published in another city.

John Sr was married 3 times. He did not abuse them.


Was the last wife (Mary) the one he was married to during the trial in 1966? If it's true he did not abuse them then as Chester said, the odds of him abusing Gertrude were slim... Tigers don't change their stripes. And if that's true I stand by my earlier assessment that he was likely controlled by her and played her games to see his kids and it's likely she used him for money and when she had true disciplinary problems and actively attempted to turn them on him and he probably backed off quite a bit. I have always believed that is why he never entered their home but would go there.

Mary was John Sr 3rd wife. They married in Dec 1968. She had 3 - 4 kids two of them lived with Mary & John along with Marie Blake, John Jr Blake and Paula moved in when she got out of prison

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby indianagirl2242 » April 26th, 2012, 9:58 pm

charlie4455 wrote:
indianagirl2242 wrote:Thanks... I did find Jr's original Obit :)

that was quick


Well, I do genealogy and given a bone, I can usually run with it :) My husband tells people if it's on the net... I'll find it if I am really looking... that's not COMPLETELY true. Course, it's now obvious why all the names were omitted on findagrave.com :)

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby charlie4455 » April 26th, 2012, 10:07 pm

indianagirl2242 wrote:
charlie4455 wrote:
indianagirl2242 wrote:Thanks... I did find Jr's original Obit :)

that was quick


Well, I do genealogy and given a bone, I can usually run with it :) My husband tells people if it's on the net... I'll find it if I am really looking... that's not COMPLETELY true. Course, it's now obvious why all the names were omitted on findagrave.com :)


same here.....

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby Chester Arthur » April 27th, 2012, 3:45 am

charlie4455 wrote:John Sr was married 3 times. He did not abuse them.

May I ask how you can be so sure about that? The reason I ask is because if that is true, then that is even more proof that Gertrude was lying about that. And if she is lying about this aspect of her marriage, then it's just possible that John Sr. was telling the truth about his support payments.
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby charlie4455 » April 27th, 2012, 9:13 am

Chester Arthur wrote:
charlie4455 wrote:John Sr was married 3 times. He did not abuse them.

May I ask how you can be so sure about that? The reason I ask is because if that is true, then that is even more proof that Gertrude was lying about that. And if she is lying about this aspect of her marriage, then it's just possible that John Sr. was telling the truth about his support payments.

well cannot be 100% - who knows what goes on behind close doors. But Gertrude lied about everything pretty much. She had very low self- esteem. What we do know is that Gertrude blamed everybody else but herself, even her own kids. I agree with Indianagirl2242 that John Sr stayed away from her bs as much as possible. Also have read stories about how nice he was to his family. If anybody abused anybody it was Gertrude. She did not kill Sylvia because of John Sr. so called abuse. She moved into that slum house after a few other slum houses after Dennis left. She was one pissed off women.

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby indianagirl2242 » April 27th, 2012, 12:48 pm

charlie4455 wrote:
Chester Arthur wrote:
charlie4455 wrote:John Sr was married 3 times. He did not abuse them.

May I ask how you can be so sure about that? The reason I ask is because if that is true, then that is even more proof that Gertrude was lying about that. And if she is lying about this aspect of her marriage, then it's just possible that John Sr. was telling the truth about his support payments.

well cannot be 100% - who knows what goes on behind close doors. But Gertrude lied about everything pretty much. She had very low self- esteem. What we do know is that Gertrude blamed everybody else but herself, even her own kids. I agree with Indianagirl2242 that John Sr stayed away from her bs as much as possible. Also have read stories about how nice he was to his family. If anybody abused anybody it was Gertrude. She did not kill Sylvia because of John Sr. so called abuse. She moved into that slum house after a few other slum houses after Dennis left. She was one pissed off women.



So really we cannot say for sure and basically back to speculation. I agree that we cannot go by Gertrude's word alone, and one could argue his second marriage failed because of all the sensation of the trial and the crime but really we do not know.

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby Chester Arthur » April 28th, 2012, 7:51 am

indianagirl2242 wrote:It's interesting that John Jr's obit named Mary as his mother and did not name anyone else specifically by name other than his wife.... I also found it interesting that according to John Jr's obit John Sr. and Mary were living in Mt. Vernon, Indiana. I got a bit excited because there is a website available that carries obits and new articles involved with those from the Mt. Vernon area but I found nothing. I know I was hoping that maybe he died down there and just buried in Greenwood. I find it odd that John Sr did not have an obituary published neither in Indianapolis or in Southern Indiana ... I even looked in Greenwood papers in case they only did very locally... nothing.. hmmm

I just read that obit where Gertrude was not mentioned but here is something else that is just as interesting; it mentioned as his surviving siblings Paula, Stephanie, Marie and James; Shirley and Dennis were not mentioned either. I can understand not wanting to mention Gertrude but why not Shirley (Dennis, as we all know, was too young to have been involved in this crime)? I am also curious as to what was John's relationship with his siblings after he expressed remorse for his part in this crime. Did he ever encourage them to also come clean? And did his public confession drive a wedge between him and them? There may be something here we are overlooking.
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby indianagirl2242 » April 28th, 2012, 9:09 am

Chester Arthur wrote:I just read that obit where Gertrude was not mentioned but here is something else that is just as interesting; it mentioned as his surviving siblings Paula, Stephanie, Marie and James; Shirley and Dennis were not mentioned either. I can understand not wanting to mention Gertrude but why not Shirley (Dennis, as we all know, was too young to have been involved in this crime)? I am also curious as to what was John's relationship with his siblings after he expressed remorse for his part in this crime. Did he ever encourage them to also come clean? And did his public confession drive a wedge between him and them? There may be something here we are overlooking.


Yeah I noticed that too about the siblings when I saw the full obituary. As far as Dennis I could understand, he was adopted to another family and presumably there was no real relationship there and since he was a baby when the crime happened it's not like they even grew up together. Also... it is possible that Shirley has died. There was nothing about people who had previously passed away in there as I recall.

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby Chester Arthur » April 28th, 2012, 11:45 am

I don't believe Shirley is dead. And you're probably right about why Dennis was not mentioned. Since he disavowed his own mother, he couldn't have very well mentioned his step-brother either.
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby kittykat » April 30th, 2012, 11:39 am

Shirley is not dead. Why Shirley is not mentioned in the obit, I don't know. All of the kids had great respect for John Jr. I was told. With respect to Dennis, he was not mentioned because at the time none of his birth family knew where he was or what had happened to him (thank you, inidianagirl for acknowledging that baby Den had nothing to do with the crime). That did not happen until after the release of "An American Crime" when I first appeared on the boards asking about Dennis Sr. From what I understand, all of the Blake kids love Mary and considered her to be their mother. There has always been a lot of in-fighting in the family (even now) so it is possible that there was a rift with Shirley at the time of John Jr's death.

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby mrdg1 » May 1st, 2012, 10:10 pm

one question that has always been in the back of mind even to this day. why did stephanie decide to move to new york as opposed to living with her own dad? it doesn't seem to make any sense. was it more her or john sr. in determining this decision??

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby Chester Arthur » May 2nd, 2012, 7:57 am

mrdg1 wrote:one question that has always been in the back of mind even to this day. why did stephanie decide to move to new york as opposed to living with her own dad? it doesn't seem to make any sense. was it more her or john sr. in determining this decision??

Who did she know in New York? I would be curious to know also but one possibility is that she may not have gotten along with her stepmother. Also, do we know if Mary Blake had been married before? If she was, did she have children from that marriage? If yes, then that would mean that John Sr. may have had to raise her kids from her previous marriage and simply couldn't afford to provide for Stephanie also.
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby charlie4455 » May 2nd, 2012, 8:30 am

Chester Arthur wrote:
mrdg1 wrote:one question that has always been in the back of mind even to this day. why did stephanie decide to move to new york as opposed to living with her own dad? it doesn't seem to make any sense. was it more her or john sr. in determining this decision??

Who did she know in New York? I would be curious to know also but one possibility is that she may not have gotten along with her stepmother. Also, do we know if Mary Blake had been married before? If she was, did she have children from that marriage? If yes, then that would mean that John Sr. may have had to raise her kids from her previous marriage and simply couldn't afford to provide for Stephanie also.


John Sr was from that area (had relatives there)... Warren, Pa which is around south 30 - 40 miles from Dunkirk, NY where Stephanie went to high school. She moved up there after the trial to go to school. John Sr wanted her to get out of Indianapolis to concentrate on her education. Yes Mary, John Sr 3rd wife had 3 or 4 kids, which 2 of them lived with John Sr & Mary along with John Jr, & Marie, Paula moved in after she got out of prison in early 1973. 5 months later she was pregnant and married in June 1973. All kids changed there last name to Blake, Paula changed her last name to VanFossan.

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby Chester Arthur » May 2nd, 2012, 10:12 am

charlie4455 wrote:John Sr was from that area (had relatives there)... Warren, Pa which is around south 30 - 40 miles from Dunkirk, NY where Stephanie went to high school. She moved up there after the trial to go to school. John Sr wanted her to get out of Indianapolis to concentrate on her education. Yes Mary, John Sr 3rd wife had 3 or 4 kids, which 2 of them lived with John Sr & Mary along with John Jr, & Marie, Paula moved in after she got out of prison in early 1973. 5 months later she was pregnant and married in June 1973. All kids changed there last name to Blake, Paula changed her last name to VanFossan.

Thanks for that information, Charlie. BTW, did John Sr. ever issue a statement regarding Sylvia's murder since it was his kids who also took part in this crime? Also, I thought all the younger kids who did not go to prison were sent to live in foster care. Was Marie, then, not placed in foster care? And I know this has already been asked, but since John Sr was still living in the area, why didn't the younger kids go to live with him after the trial?
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby charlie4455 » May 2nd, 2012, 1:09 pm

Chester Arthur wrote:
charlie4455 wrote:John Sr was from that area (had relatives there)... Warren, Pa which is around south 30 - 40 miles from Dunkirk, NY where Stephanie went to high school. She moved up there after the trial to go to school. John Sr wanted her to get out of Indianapolis to concentrate on her education. Yes Mary, John Sr 3rd wife had 3 or 4 kids, which 2 of them lived with John Sr & Mary along with John Jr, & Marie, Paula moved in after she got out of prison in early 1973. 5 months later she was pregnant and married in June 1973. All kids changed there last name to Blake, Paula changed her last name to VanFossan.

Thanks for that information, Charlie. BTW, did John Sr. ever issue a statement regarding Sylvia's murder since it was his kids who also took part in this crime? Also, I thought all the younger kids who did not go to prison were sent to live in foster care. Was Marie, then, not placed in foster care? And I know this has already been asked, but since John Sr was still living in the area, why didn't the younger kids go to live with him after the trial?


Not aware of any statements by John Sr. All the kids did go to foster care (maybe not Stephanie, she lived with John Sr). Not sure of complete timeline but he did get custody of James & Marie, also John Jr when he got out in Feb 1968 (when John Jr was released John Sr had a scuffle with TV Photographer Dave Brady of WISH TV while he was attempting photograph the boys release from prison). Marie & James attended Howe High. John Jr attended Emmerich High. & stepkids attended Beech Grove High. So John Sr got custody of all kids besides Shirley she stayed with her foster parents... hmmmm in John Sr obit he does not list Shirley as his daughter she is not even mentioned just like John Jr obit. But her last name was changed to Blake.

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby indianagirl2242 » May 2nd, 2012, 1:21 pm

Was John Sr.'s 2nd and 3rd wives named Mary? In trial they said his wife had two kids from a previous marriage but I heard that Mary was his 3rd. When did they marry?

At the time we first were talking (why didn't stephanie stay with him in '65) he was still married to the 2nd wife.

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby charlie4455 » May 2nd, 2012, 1:46 pm

indianagirl2242 wrote:Was John Sr.'s 2nd and 3rd wives named Mary? In trial they said his wife had two kids from a previous marriage but I heard that Mary was his 3rd. When did they marry?

At the time we first were talking (why didn't stephanie stay with him in '65) he was still married to the 2nd wife.



Don't know too much about John Sr 2nd wife ,not even her name. Maybe thats one the the reasons Stephanie went to New York to live. They did divorce shortly after trial (I read somewhere) John Sr 3rd marriage was on December 16, 1968, her name is Mary.

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby indianagirl2242 » May 2nd, 2012, 2:21 pm

charlie4455 wrote:
Don't know too much about John Sr 2nd wife ,not even her name. Maybe thats one the the reasons Stephanie went to New York to live. They did divorce shortly after trial (I read somewhere) John Sr 3rd marriage was on December 16, 1968, her name is Mary.


Ok.. that's what I was wondering. I get why Stephanie didn't stay in Indianapolis but I think the question was why she (well I think it's also been asked about John Jr) didn't stay living with her dad after the summer of '65 and if there were issues preventing it. I'm assuming obviously there was a court order giving Gertrude custody and if she wanted them she got them. Something tells me that when she would send John Jr. there it was to straighten him out and when she thought he was she wanted him back home and rather than fight her in court (which honestly probably wouldn't have worked anyway) John Sr. just sent him back.

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby indianagirl2242 » May 2nd, 2012, 2:23 pm

we probably also have to realize and remember that it's likely that there were more rules and order in John Sr's house (although we don't know for sure) but there was a lot of chaos going on at Gertrudes with all the children in and out so they likely got away with much more. I suspect before Jenny and Sylvia showed there was a lot of placing blame on each other for their actions and when they moved there they became scapegoats. What child wouldn't want to live in the home with less rules and order?

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby Chester Arthur » May 2nd, 2012, 2:37 pm

WOW! Shirley seems to be the child nobody wants. I would be curious as to why John Sr. didn't acknowledge her.

Also, I wonder how the kids got on at their new schools? Were they accepted or were they shunned like Medieval lepers?
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby indianagirl2242 » May 2nd, 2012, 3:55 pm

Chester Arthur wrote:WOW! Shirley seems to be the child nobody wants. I would be curious as to why John Sr. didn't acknowledge her.


Could have been for a few reasons. I have heard that it was speculated that she may not have been John Sr's but Gertrude's second husband's child as her birth occurred close in that time period. It could have been if I recall she may have been a little more truthful on the stand than the others who at least attempted to lie in the beginning. She likely had very little to do with the torture (wasn't she the one out with Jenny a lot? Or was it Marie because they were often confused). I know Marie at least gave it the effort to lie until the "God help me" statement on the stand.

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby Chester Arthur » May 2nd, 2012, 4:45 pm

indianagirl2242 wrote:Could have been for a few reasons. I have heard that it was speculated that she may not have been John Sr's but Gertrude's second husband's child as her birth occurred close in that time period. It could have been if I recall she may have been a little more truthful on the stand than the others who at least attempted to lie in the beginning. She likely had very little to do with the torture (wasn't she the one out with Jenny a lot? Or was it Marie because they were often confused). I know Marie at least gave it the effort to lie until the "God help me" statement on the stand.

I suspected that but I didn't want to say anything I couldn't back up. Lest we all forget, Shirley was the one who helped Ricky brand that 3 on Sylvia's chest so she's not as innocent as some people make her out to be. But if she was not John Sr.'s child, then whatever happened to her father and why didn't she go and live with him?
My heart will always cherish
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for my faithful basset hound!

 
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Re: John Baniszewski

Postby indianagirl2242 » May 2nd, 2012, 5:46 pm

Chester Arthur wrote:I suspected that but I didn't want to say anything I couldn't back up. Lest we all forget, Shirley was the one who helped Ricky brand that 3 on Sylvia's chest so she's not as innocent as some people make her out to be. But if she was not John Sr.'s child, then whatever happened to her father and why didn't she go and live with him?


Here's where I get sketchy. We know Gertrude and John Sr. were married and then divorced and then she married the guy in where was it? Kansas for a short period... then she returned and got back with John Sr. What i was never completely clear on was whether she and he legally remarried or not. We know that Gertrude went by the Wright last name claiming common law but that wasn't her legal name... so I speculate that she and John Sr. would have remarried legally or she would have had the 2nd husband's name legally. At any rate, from my understanding Shirley was born in that time of where it was supposedly questioned if John Sr. was her dad or Gertrude's ex in Kansas. But she would have carried the legal name of her mother, or if since they were back together she just got the Bani name. Maybe as it's been speculated Dennis Wright Sr. knew nothing of what was going on than Gertrude's second husband didn't either and they had no way (or desire). Besides, John Sr. was portrayed as her father. Maybe it was they didn't want her to have a stigma in school or around the other children but he just couldn't emotionally attach himself to her. This is total speculation of course.

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